**Official EMP Owner's Thread** - Page 187 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5581 of 7021 Old 10-25-2015, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Okay, it’s been three full weeks today since I’ve had the R55Ti’s in my home for audition, thus this mini-review. So let’s start out with my usual disclaimers. How this speaker performs in my home won’t necessarily mean it will perform the same in your home. Your home could be better or worse. The music I listen to will no doubt be different from the music you listen to. Since I do not listen at reference levels (usually 10 to 15 dB below reference), what I seek in a speaker will no doubt be different than what other people seek. At my age, I don’t have the golden audiophile ears of my youth (if I even had them then), but I’m hardly deaf. And while these speakers will be used 95% for movies and general TV usage, I always test speakers out for music first and foremost. If they can pass my music tests, they will be more than sufficient for movies.

2.0 Configuration: I do this in order to see how well a speaker performs on a variety of music and musical instruments and voice. It allows me to get a good idea of its soundstage and other sonic properties. I spent the first week in 2.0 mode. This told me pretty much what I already knew. This speaker has a very good to excellent midrange, good bass response down to perhaps 50 Hz, as well as a relaxing high end that seems to be somewhat handcuffed by its MTM configuration. I consider these speakers to be on the warm side, but not overly colored. It’s rather a pleasant sound that many people may enjoy more than I. It also performs extremely well at the upper bass and lower midrange frequencies, where it’s clear and succinct, and can hit hard when called upon. We start getting into trouble at the lower bass frequencies (say below 50 Hz) and this trouble increases the farther it goes down (it’s rated to 40 Hz @ +/- 3 dB). The bass below 50 Hz isn’t as well controlled as I like, and can even sound a bit muddy at times. I doubt a more powerful amplifier would remedy this. The upper frequencies, while very pleasant, won’t ever make me forget about ribbon tweeters. There isn’t that airy, spacial soundstage I’ve come so accustom to from my Maggies (note: I did not play my Maggies during the entire audition). Then again, we’re not talking 5 grand speakers here. The upper midrange and lower tweeter sound is very good indeed, but not quite as pristine as the R5Bi’s. But they aren’t as dry or clinical as the R5Bi’s can be on occasion. They also presented a nice, wide soundstage, but no wider than the R5Bi’s, and they didn’t extend as high. The soundstage also seemed centered a bit low for my tastes.

2.1 Configuration: This made a big difference as one would expect when I crossed them over at 60 Hz. These speakers absolutely needed a subwoofer to attain the sound I was looking for. This is not unusual. Most tower speakers can be significantly improved by incorporating a good subwoofer.

3.1 Configuration: Adding in an R5Bi for my center channel made several small improvements. It brought a slightly more extended high end, while slightly improving the upper midrange/lower treble frequencies. It also helped raise the soundstage to be more centered to the screen. It also extended the height of the soundstage. I found I have absolutely no need for the R56Ci center channel. The R5Bi laying on its side worked just great, thank you.

5.1 Configuration: It was here where I learned my R5Bi’s are totally wasted. Even in heavy surround usage, such as in Lone Survivor, there is no need for such a capable speaker. For most movies, where the surround stage seems to be used more sparingly, it makes absolutely no sense for me to use the R5Bi’s. And this is what has troubled me the most.

Conclusion: I’m having a hard time justifying the R55Ti’s. It’s not the money, because these are great speakers for the price, when used with a subwoofer. And they have made a noticeable improvement in my overall movie enjoyment, but it was at the cost of my R5Bi’s. I either need to sell them (I rarely sell anything), or use them in another room, since they are far too good for surround duties. It may have been different if I enjoyed 5.1 surround music videos (I have over two dozen), but I find them distracting and not real to life. So, after three weeks I’m still sitting on the fence. I suspect I will keep the R55Ti’s, but if I do I will get smaller, less expensive surrounds. And if I decide to return them, I won’t be too upset.
ds, great review!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
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post #5582 of 7021 Old 10-25-2015, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
ds, great review!
Thanks, Elihawk. BTW, how about those Hawkeyes! .

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post #5583 of 7021 Old 10-25-2015, 05:29 PM
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Ds, about surrounds, I only partially agree with you. Until recently, I had a pair of SLS Q line surround- really good sounding speaker, but only capable of hitting 120 hz and since my Yamaha receiver only allows for a single crossover, my surrounds would bottom out/distort....so if you have a rec like mine, you need surround that are capable of hitting a crossover point that is optimal for your mains.
yes, good season for the Hawks so far, but we aren't a high talent team...so I think a loss or two will happen at some point!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
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post #5584 of 7021 Old 10-25-2015, 05:33 PM
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Ds, about surrounds, I only partially agree with you. Until recently, I had a pair of SLS Q line surround- really good sounding speaker, but only capable of hitting 120 hz and since my Yamaha receiver only allows for a single crossover, my surrounds would bottom out/distort....so if you have a rec like mine, you need surround that are capable of hitting a crossover point that is optimal for your mains.
yes, good season for the Hawks so far, but we aren't a high talent team...so I think a loss or two will happen at some point!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #5585 of 7021 Old 10-26-2015, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
Ds, about surrounds, I only partially agree with you. Until recently, I had a pair of SLS Q line surround- really good sounding speaker, but only capable of hitting 120 hz and since my Yamaha receiver only allows for a single crossover, my surrounds would bottom out/distort....so if you have a rec like mine, you need surround that are capable of hitting a crossover point that is optimal for your mains.
yes, good season for the Hawks so far, but we aren't a high talent team...so I think a loss or two will happen at some point!
Oh, the surround speakers should be capable of 80 Hz response. I’m not talking about using marginal speakers. I'd buy something fairly capable. The E3b’s are capable of 80 Hz, as are several other smaller speakers. And if I enjoyed 5.1 music videos in surround sound, I would be keeping the R5Bi’s as surrounds. But after listening to several nicely recorded 5.1 videos (Steely Dan and Roger Waters, for instance), I came to realize that I didn’t care for it. Others no doubt do. As far as movies are concerned, I found nothing that had what I consider high fidelity, even those that have done a terrific job using surrounds (as I noted, Lone Survivor was the most active I’ve heard). Ricochets, rocks falling, distant guns and voices and explosions add interest, even places one right in the middle of intense scenes, but hardly require a speaker as capable as the R5Bi’s. And movies like Interstellar, which uses surrounds very sparingly, it's simply not worth it for me.

The Hawkeyes have surprised not only me, but the voters. But the Big Ten is full of really good teams, so it will all get sorted out in the end. Still, a nice surprise this year so far .

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #5586 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 04:42 AM
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So I have been itching to upgrade my sub, and I see the Outlaw Ultra X-12 is on a really good sale, really tempted to pull the trigger... I just have to keep it turned down being in an apartment, but I see it as a future investment
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Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | Outlaw Ultra-X12
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post #5587 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
So I have been itching to upgrade my sub, and I see the Outlaw Ultra X-12 is on a really good sale, really tempted to pull the trigger... I just have to keep it turned down being in an apartment, but I see it as a future investment
The outlaw x12 looks more reasonable to get. 999 for dual, i think its better than the pb1000 or the vt2 mk4

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post #5588 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 05:16 AM
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The outlaw x12 looks more reasonable to get. 999 for dual, i think its better than the pb1000 or the vt2 mk4
Just seems like a good chance to get a lot of sub for the money.

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post #5589 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 05:23 AM
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If the x12 is anything like my LFM1 plus, it is a very good sub and the one reason why I have not broke down to try the EMP new sub! I just cannot imagine it being better than the Outlaw. However, I have been wanting to retire the crappy Klipsch Rw12d...so maybe when i do that!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
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post #5590 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
If the x12 is anything like my LFM1 plus, it is a very good sub and the one reason why I have not broke down to try the EMP new sub! I just cannot imagine it being better than the Outlaw. However, I have been wanting to retire the crappy Klipsch Rw12d...so maybe when i do that!
Well it beats the LFM1-EX by 2dB and does so in a smaller footprint, I also like that it's down-firing, and has a 3 year warranty on driver/amp.

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post #5591 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 06:51 AM
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Is the Ex front firing? My LFM1-plus is down firing...but it ain't small. And it ain't pretty....(No WAF factor for me and the dog doesn't complain too much)

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #5592 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 11:55 AM
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So I have been itching to upgrade my sub, and I see the Outlaw Ultra X-12 is on a really good sale, really tempted to pull the trigger... I just have to keep it turned down being in an apartment, but I see it as a future investment
The BIC is a good budget sub. But nothing I know of will improve your overall music and movie enjoyment like a very good sub capable of reaching 20 Hz or lower with solid, clean output. You will wonder why you waited so long.
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Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #5593 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 12:09 PM
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Well it beats the LFM1-EX by 2dB and does so in a smaller footprint, I also like that it's down-firing, and has a 3 year warranty on driver/amp.
They also improved the internal bracing to get rid of a mid-bass hump they had in the LFM1-EX/Plus, so it has a much flatter frequency response. IMO, with the sale, the Outlaw Ultra-X12 beats everything in the $500-$600 range. Once you get over $600 + shipping, the Hsu VTF-2 MK4 becomes a contender if you're looking for the ability to completely plug it. The Ultra-X12 you cannot completely plug, so it's not quite as "tunable" as the Hsu, but it has a more efficient and more powerful amp, and higher output.

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post #5594 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 12:11 PM
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So I have been itching to upgrade my sub, and I see the Outlaw Ultra X-12 is on a really good sale, really tempted to pull the trigger... I just have to keep it turned down being in an apartment, but I see it as a future investment
I'd jump on it. It will be worlds better than what you have. It's a killer deal. They look good, they sound amazing, what's not to love?
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post #5595 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 12:22 PM
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What has always amazed me is that Outlaw Audio doesn’t get much love throughout the year. But wait until the October/November time frame where they are on sale and they quickly sell out and people sing their praises. Then the cycle repeats . All-in-all, a capable subwoofer that would be difficult to beat at their sale price. Perhaps Outlaw would be better off keeping them at this price throughout the year. Their sales would probably double.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #5596 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 12:40 PM
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I am trying out the RBH I-12 for 30 days and wonder if I should have ordered the OUTLAW ultra-x-12? The red burl finish looks nice but looking up close has some little scratch swirls, and wonder why RBH has only 1year warranty? So far the sound is really nice and smooth with great low-end for movies. Quality Control needs to be checked...
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post #5597 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 01:18 PM
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I am trying out the RBH I-12 for 30 days and wonder if I should have ordered the OUTLAW ultra-x-12? The red burl finish looks nice but looking up close has some little scratch swirls, and wonder why RBH has only 1year warranty? So far the sound is really nice and smooth with great low-end for movies. Quality Control needs to be checked...
While I think the Outlaw Ultra X-12 (or Rythmik LV12R) would be more of a lateral move (perhaps slightly better), the warranty and quality control issues with the RBH/EMP Tek would have me a bit concerned. One member is returning both of his I-12’s (one finish was flawless, while the other had noticeable problems). He just ordered two Outlaws.

The problem lies in the cost of getting something that is significantly better. One of the best bangs-for-the-bucks IMO is the Hsu VTF-3 Mk5 HP @ $888 shipped. It only has a 2-year warranty on the amp, but one can buy an extended warranty. Don’t know if Dr. Hsu is planning a black Friday sale or not: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #5598 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 02:51 PM
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Well, if we are talking QC on finishes, my Outlaw LFM1 plus was not perfect. A couple scratchs and a couple corner places where the "protective sheet" won't come off. While it is not as ugly as my Klipsch RW12d sub, it doesn'thold a candle to the EMPtek10i10i in terms of looks. But play Godzilla or Oblivion and you quickly get a sense for which one has the better SQ! And as I have stated in the past, i do really like the 10i10i...it doesn't hit low or as loud as the Outlaw, but really has a very nice sound...except if you push her too hard and she distorts!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #5599 of 7021 Old 10-27-2015, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
The BIC is a good budget sub. But nothing I know of will improve your overall music and movie enjoyment like a very good sub capable of reaching 20 Hz or lower with solid, clean output. You will wonder why you waited so long.
Yeah I have held off because I live in an apartment, but this will be a tough deal to pass up... I think even at low volumes it will still sound a ton better.

Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | Outlaw Ultra-X12
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post #5600 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by applemnet View Post
I am trying out the RBH I-12 for 30 days and wonder if I should have ordered the OUTLAW ultra-x-12? The red burl finish looks nice but looking up close has some little scratch swirls, and wonder why RBH has only 1year warranty? So far the sound is really nice and smooth with great low-end for movies. Quality Control needs to be checked...
Apple, you will just have to decide if the return shipping for a sub that seems to sound great but doesn't look perfect is worth it. I seriously doubt my Outlaw is any better than that sub and as I stated, the Outlaw has some scratchs and flaws, just like my 10i10i from EMP. But as Ds points out, what has held me back from getting one of the new EMP subs is that warranty on the amp. One year is not impressive...

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #5601 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 09:18 AM
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Yeah I have held off because I live in an apartment, but this will be a tough deal to pass up... I think even at low volumes it will still sound a ton better.
Apartments and subwoofers just don’t mix, unless you know your neighbors and can agree on times where you can really flex the subwoofer’s muscles. I think Chucky7, who lives in SoCal, got cops knocking on his door a few times, even before 10 at night. And he lives in a detached home! Of course he also owns a JTR sub .
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post #5602 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Apartments and subwoofers just don’t mix, unless you know your neighbors and can agree on times where you can really flex the subwoofer’s muscles. I think Chucky7, who lives in SoCal, got cops knocking on his door a few times, even before 10 at night. And he lives in a detached home! Of course he also owns a JTR sub .
Yeah that has been my main reluctance to pull the trigger. I haven't had any issues though, and generally keep it around 30%.

Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | Outlaw Ultra-X12
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post #5603 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 10:01 AM
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What has always amazed me is that Outlaw Audio doesn’t get much love throughout the year. But wait until the October/November time frame where they are on sale and they quickly sell out and people sing their praises. Then the cycle repeats . All-in-all, a capable subwoofer that would be difficult to beat at their sale price. Perhaps Outlaw would be better off keeping them at this price throughout the year. Their sales would probably double.
Any idea how the outlaw would work with smaller satellites...probably have to x-over at 90+. Was thinking rythmik all the way since its a mostly music system but the price is very attractive
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post #5604 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 10:06 AM
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I'm thinking of new X-12 also, sale price is very tempting and I need new sub to pair with my new Chane A3rx-c fronts


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post #5605 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kbuzz View Post
Any idea how the outlaw would work with smaller satellites...probably have to x-over at 90+. Was thinking rythmik all the way since its a mostly music system but the price is very attractive
The Outlaw sub shows frequency responses of 25 Hz to 180 Hz +/- 2 dB w/o port plug and 17 Hz to 180 Hz +/- 2 dB with one port plugged. This is an excellent frequency response and you’ll have absolutely no problem with a higher crossover. There are a lot of subs that aren’t nearly as flat through that frequency range. Of course, Rythmik is known for excellent response and audio reproduction. You'd be happy with either.
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Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #5606 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 10:59 AM
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yes, I'm pretty lucky. In Iowa, you don't have to have "Trump money" to ow a house and I live the end of the block...with a railroad track as one neighbor and my other neighbor is onl at her house on weekends.

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #5607 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kbuzz View Post
Any idea how the outlaw would work with smaller satellites...probably have to x-over at 90+. Was thinking rythmik all the way since its a mostly music system but the price is very attractive
I really enjoy mine for music. I was previous using it with very small satellites, crossed over at 150Hz, and really enjoyed it.

I agree with dsrussell, in that I think you'd be happy with Outlaw or Rhythmik. Personally, I would say the Outlaw would be better for home theater, if you ever think you're going to do any of that, but both companies make great subs.
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post #5608 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 01:24 PM
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Well, if we are talking QC on finishes, my Outlaw LFM1 plus was not perfect. A couple scratchs and a couple corner places where the "protective sheet" won't come off. While it is not as ugly as my Klipsch RW12d sub, it doesn'thold a candle to the EMPtek10i10i in terms of looks. But play Godzilla or Oblivion and you quickly get a sense for which one has the better SQ! And as I have stated in the past, i do really like the 10i10i...it doesn't hit low or as loud as the Outlaw, but really has a very nice sound...except if you push her too hard and she distorts!
I ended up selling my Outlaw because of the SQ. I also had similar issues with the top of my LFM-1 Plus having small chips and scratches on the edges of the glass top. I also had a fun fight trying to get that film off the glass.

If you have carpet, I don't advise on Outlaw's down firing subs. I have carpet, and when I turned the volume up to -20dB (-3dB signal/ 30% gain), you could hear the air being pushed into and escaping from the carpet. Especially lower frequencies. It was an interesting hissing sound that make me jump up and run over to the sub as fast as I could thinking something was wrong.

Also note that even though the Outlaw LFM subs are "tunable" the ports are down firing as well. Which means each time you want to change the "tune" of the sub, you have to be able to get underneath it - just a note. I left my LFM-1 Plus on the max extension mode.

I liked the SQ of the PB-1000 much better. It had a natural depth and beefiness that the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus didn't have.

I cannot comment on anything about the X12.

_____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
Receiver : Denon x5200
Front Stage : Martin Logan Motion 60XTs/Elac Debut F5 Center
Surround Speakers : HTD Level 3 Towers/RBH R5Bi Front and Rear Heights
Subwooferage : Dual UM-18s/6 SI HT18s
Born in 1995 and still continuing my HT journey

Last edited by bgtighe23; 10-28-2015 at 01:26 PM. Reason: X12
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post #5609 of 7021 Old 10-28-2015, 03:02 PM
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Wow, bgti, do you have 70s shag carpet under that thing? I have a very heavy rug under mine and have never experienced anything like that. I did take a small wood stripping board and put under the front and rear wedges, just becuase I thought the driver was pretty close to the rug, but the SQ is excellent.

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, EMP 10i10i sub
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and Klipsch 12wD sub
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only
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post #5610 of 7021 Old 10-29-2015, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
yes, I'm pretty lucky. In Iowa, you don't have to have "Trump money" to ow a house and I live the end of the block...with a railroad track as one neighbor and my other neighbor is onl at her house on weekends.
Yeah that is nice to have some space! It's a bit more expensive here, and as a mid-twenties guy I still like being close to the city.

Samsung PN60F5300 | Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | Outlaw Ultra-X12
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