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post #2521 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by moussaka View Post
 

I'm not saying there is nothing that can be described as dry. I'm just saying I've never heard nor thought of describing audio as dry, therefore, I'm unsure what is meant by it.

 

What would make it less dry?

 

A very simplistic definition would be dry = unprocessed raw sound without too many effects.

wet = add desired effects like reverb, EQ, and other techniques to achieve a certain desired outcome (e.g. a rich reverberating piano sound like the one you might hear at a live recital in a good recital hall)

 

Which is why I said that my feeling was this was an issue with the Zimerman/Schumann recording more than an issue with the speakers. 

 

Again, this is standard audio terminology, something that a lot of people understand approximately which is why you'll see these words being used in professional reviews of recordings and other audio related equipment. It is far more useful for most people to see the word "dry" being used to describe a recording than to look at a graph. I hope we can return this thread now to discussion about Emp Tek speakers because I'm getting tired of these trivialities. If concerns about words like "dry" being inappropriate to describe audio were legitimate, I wonder why people visit forums such as these. They should only have to look up graphs on the manufacturer's website and not rely on reviews written in English (or any other natural language) to make their decision. That is the only point I wanted to make. 

 

If people still think all that was pointless, I'll gladly delete my review.


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post #2522 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 11:59 AM
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Well that is where my disconnect comes in. I thought you were referring to only the sound of the speakers themselves. Apparently it didnt click in my head when I read 'recording' lol


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post #2523 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by moussaka View Post
 

Well that is where my disconnect comes in. I thought you were referring to only the sound of the speakers themselves. Apparently it didnt click in my head when I read 'recording' lol

 

Fair enough. Yes, I was talking about how the speakers revealed differences between recordings and I was describing one of those recordings as having a dry piano sound. I've been playing the piano for over 20 years and have been listening to recorded (and live) piano music for almost as long. So I admit I was a little annoyed when someone expressed doubt about the utility of a review even before I left one and then followed that up with an absurd comment about usage of words like "dry" which is in fact standard terminology. I still haven't gotten a response from that person to the questions I asked in my response to him other than an offensive picture. Maybe he doesn't want to be so precise anymore now that the questions are being directed at him. Ah well.. 


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post #2524 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 12:21 PM
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Anyways.....................................................................

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post #2525 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 03:57 PM
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I have never heard an audio sound described as dry, but...no big deal. Thanks for the nice review.

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
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post #2526 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 04:06 PM
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Read most professional "audiophile" reviews and you'll see all kinds of bizarre terms for what they hear.
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post #2527 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 04:29 PM
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On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly beautiful subwoofers! I've had about 45 minutes with them so far ...so don't draw too many conclusions based on this yet, but as of right now my my thoughts are that I made a great choice in selling the rw-12d's. The e1010i's sound quite a bit better in terms of musical reproduction and accuracy. I won't draw my conclusions until I have a lot more time with them, but for now they are easily the better choice based on what I've listened to. I could immediately tell it sounded better in my room and to my ears



And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif
1euyp.jpg

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post #2528 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly a beautiful subwoofer! I've had about 45 minutes with them so far ...so don't draw too many conclusions based on this yet, but as of right now my my thoughts are that I made a great choice in selling the rw-12d's. The e1010i's sound quite a bit better in terms of musical reproduction and accuracy. I won't draw my conclusions until I have a lot more time with them, but for now they are easily the better choice based on what I've listened to. I could immediately tell it sounded better in my room and to my ears



And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif
1euyp.jpg

I am curious if you leave your speakers clothes off or take their clothes off for the pictures? Some people like the naked look. Your setup looks really good!

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post #2529 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 04:59 PM
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Sooner, my thoughts exactly when I made the switch. Better looking, better sounding and a more precise reproduction! IMHO, best sub under 500 dollars!

Set up #1: EMP e5ti, e5Ci, and SLS Q line Audio surrounds, EMP 10i10i sub
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post #2530 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

I am curious if you leave your speakers clothes off or take their clothes off for the pictures? Some people like the naked look. Your setup looks really good!

They seem to want to show off for most photo's in their birthday suits, but I think they look just as good (definitely more...elegant) with their grilles on. Thanks for the kind words! For the money, they sure are nice
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Sooner, my thoughts exactly when I made the switch. Better looking, better sounding and a more precise reproduction! IMHO, best sub under 500 dollars!

I've noticed they are much much better on more complex passages (I'll note all these songs in a formal review later). Even at lower volumes, the resolution in the lower notes is cleaner.

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post #2531 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jephdood View Post

Read most professional "audiophile" reviews and you'll see all kinds of bizarre terms for what they hear.

 

So it looks like most people here haven't heard the word "dry" used to describe sound nor do they seem to have any clue as to what it might possibly even mean! That is what is bizarre to me. Seriously, it is not like I invented this word to describe a raw unprocessed-sounding sound. I just searched for the word on a couple of recording forums and there are plenty of discussions about dry sound! So it looks like the people who call themselves audiophiles don't use the same terminology as the recording technicians (which I find surprising since many audiophiles on other forums and on this very forum seem to be well versed in recording techniques and terminology). 

 

 

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Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post


They seem to want to show off for most photo's in their birthday suits, but I think they look just as good (definitely more...elegant) with their grilles on. Thanks for the kind words! For the money, they sure are nice
I've noticed they are much much better on more complex passages (I'll note all these songs in a formal review later). Even at lower volumes, the resolution in the lower notes is cleaner.

 

What do you mean by "resolution in the lower notes is cleaner"? Also what do you mean by "music reproduction and accuracy"? 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post
 I hate describing audio as it's pretty hard to grasp what other people are hearing using words lol.
 

 

Apparently, you don't hate it enough lol. 


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post #2532 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly a beautiful subwoofer!


And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif]

yes they sure are! the whole set up looks beautiful! very nice...

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post #2533 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 07:50 PM
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Do you guys notice a difference in the sound with the grill covers off? 
 
I've seen different opinions about that. I listened to music without the covers on today and didn't perceive any significant difference though I did leave them off because I like the naked look better. These are sexy speakers indeed!

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post #2534 of 3734 Old 12-17-2013, 08:28 PM
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So what's with all this martini talk...
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post #2535 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 05:20 AM
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I also have never heard audio described as "dry", is there also a "wet" sound as well? tongue.gif

As others have stated, its pretty difficult to describe sound qualities with words, things like "forward" or "neutral" are more understandable, but all the wacky language you often see is really useless in my opinion. I find reading about things like sound stage and accuracy and imaging are good ways to understand a speaker, because they are concrete things, though still subjective.

ousooner2, those e1010i look great! And it sounds like even from your initial listening you made the right choice, I look forward to a thorough review!

VS85, I keep my grills on and don't hear a difference with them on/off, though they look a lot cooler with them off biggrin.gif

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post #2536 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 06:15 AM
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post #2537 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VS85 View Post

So it looks like most people here haven't heard the word "dry" used to describe sound nor do they seem to have any clue as to what it might possibly even mean! That is what is bizarre to me.

Not so bizarre. After reading what you wrote I think I can translate for the audio guys. By dry you apparently mean "close mic'd" which describes the way the piano was recorded. That sounds quite different from what a listener would hear from a distance. From a distance a listener (or microphone) would also hear the reverberation and other elements of room acoustics. What you describe as "dry" is what the pianist hears and your preference is for what the listener hears. Hope that helps.
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post #2538 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post

 things like "forward" or "neutral" are more understandable....... I find reading about things like sound stage and accuracy and imaging are good ways to understand a speaker, because they are concrete things, though still subjective.

 

 

To me, "forward" and "neutral" are not more understandable than "dry". "Accuracy" similarly is a vague term. Accurate with what? What is the comparison made to? What is the gold standard? How do you know what the sound ought to sound like when you say something is accurate or not? "Sound stage" again is probably useless by your standards. How do you know if my description of a wide sound stage is wide enough for you? How do you know if what I think of as "forward" is what you think of as "forward"? 

 

So it is clear that the terms that you read about and can relate to your experience (and think you understand) are "concrete". The others are nonsense.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, even kindergartners performed reliably when asked to pick out dry sounds from wet (link provided earlier and @Transmanicon: yes, there is wet sound as well and all of this is standard recording terminology and apparently grade 1 kids have no trouble understanding it and think it makes perfect sense after being given an approximate definition). I always got the impression that audiophiles were familiar with recording techniques and terminology but I guess most people on this forum are more of speaker enthusiasts than true audiophiles. If that is the case, then I apologize for making that assumption when I wrote my review. 

 

@FMW: Thanks for the translation, that is indeed the gist of it. 

 

Some examples of dry piano and pizzicato sound: http://www.soundsnap.com/search/audio/dry+piano/score


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post #2539 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

On another topic...got my pair of e1010i's in. They are certainly a beautiful subwoofer! I've had about 45 minutes with them so far ...so don't draw too many conclusions based on this yet, but as of right now my my thoughts are that I made a great choice in selling the rw-12d's. The e1010i's sound quite a bit better in terms of musical reproduction and accuracy. I won't draw my conclusions until I have a lot more time with them, but for now they are easily the better choice based on what I've listened to. I could immediately tell it sounded better in my room and to my ears



And some shots for those that like it...biggrin.gif
1euyp.jpg


Sweet setup i would like to see some more pics of the room if you don't mind.........
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post #2540 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VS85 View Post

To me, "forward" and "neutral" are not more understandable than "dry". "Accuracy" similarly is a vague term. Accurate with what? What is the comparison made to? What is the gold standard? How do you know what the sound ought to sound like when you say something is accurate or not? "Sound stage" again is probably useless by your standards. How do you know if my description of a wide sound stage is wide enough for you? How do you know if what I think of as "forward" is what you think of as "forward"? 

So it is clear that the terms that you read about and can relate to your experience (and think you understand) are "concrete". The others are nonsense.

Like I mentioned earlier, even kindergartners performed reliably when asked to pick out dry sounds from wet (link provided earlier and @Transmanicon: yes, there is wet sound as well and all of this is standard recording terminology and apparently grade 1 kids have no trouble understanding it and think it makes perfect sense after being given an approximate definition). I always got the impression that audiophiles were familiar with recording techniques and terminology but I guess most people on this forum are more of speaker enthusiasts than true audiophiles. If that is the case, then I apologize for making that assumption when I wrote my review. 

@FMW: Thanks for the translation, that is indeed the gist of it. 

Some examples of dry piano and pizzicato sound: http://www.soundsnap.com/search/audio/dry+piano/score

Accuracy correlates to frequency response. A flat response signifies an accurate speaker and this is something you can measure and graph and analyze. Sound stage can be tested by moving around in the space to see how off-axis response performs. Bright and neutral sound can often be inferred from the frequency response curve, looking at the dips and peaks on a curve can provide some idea of sound characteristics one may encounter. Obviously sound is all subjective, but I feel these kinds of descriptors have some sort of measurable quantity.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying dry sound is "nonsense", I refer more to the reviews that talk about "gentle airy inviting sound that provides a sense of unfiltered realism", that kind of language that really tells me nothing except for the amount of adjectives someone can string together. I appreciate you enlightening me about dry vs. wet, I am not as familiar with recording practices so thank you for that!
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post #2541 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 03:21 PM
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Sooner, now your setup looks like mine with the dual subs and everything else! biggrin.gif

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Of course, I got it modified with the TK-427, which cheeks it up another, maybe, 3 or 4 quads per channel.
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post #2542 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 04:23 PM
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Accuracy correlates to frequency response. A flat response signifies an accurate speaker and this is something you can measure and graph and analyze. Sound stage can be tested by moving around in the space to see how off-axis response performs. Bright and neutral sound can often be inferred from the frequency response curve, looking at the dips and peaks on a curve can provide some idea of sound characteristics one may encounter. Obviously sound is all subjective, but I feel these kinds of descriptors have some sort of measurable quantity.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying dry sound is "nonsense", I refer more to the reviews that talk about "gentle airy inviting sound that provides a sense of unfiltered realism", that kind of language that really tells me nothing except for the amount of adjectives someone can string together. I appreciate you enlightening me about dry vs. wet, I am not as familiar with recording practices so thank you for that!

Thanks. Watch from around 20:16 to hear Barenboim use the word "dry" to describe the sound Lang Lang was producing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dwegqniNg&nofeather=True. It is a very common descriptor of sound at least in the recording and instrumental circles and most people in these circles know exactly what that means.

Can you tell me how to measure accuracy? You mention a flat response. Do you have standard sounds that you play to record the response of the speakers or do you just play your CDs and measure response?

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post #2543 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 05:32 PM
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So im currently running the Emptek series for about 1 1/2 years. For whatever reasons im not sure if its my AVR or the speaker itself but my AVR shuts off during loud playback and after weeks of troubleshooting my emptek E55wi(SR) is the culprit. I have it completely disconnected now and the AVR no longer shuts off during loud playback. Any ideas? I am gonna swap the SL and see if it does it too.
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post #2544 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 05:51 PM
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Swap it and report back. That will either show that it's the AVR channel or the speaker

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post #2545 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VS85 View Post

Thanks. Watch from around 20:16 to hear Barenboim use the word "dry" to describe the sound Lang Lang was producing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dwegqniNg&nofeather=True. It is a very common descriptor of sound at least in the recording and instrumental circles and most people in these circles know exactly what that means.

Can you tell me how to measure accuracy? You mention a flat response. Do you have standard sounds that you play to record the response of the speakers or do you just play your CDs and measure response?

Probably time to let the dry stuff go. Frequency response is determined by measuring sound pressure level at all or most of the frequencies in the audible range by playing test tones. It is impossible to measure frequency response with music.
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post #2546 of 3734 Old 12-18-2013, 07:09 PM
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Frequency response is determined by measuring sound pressure level at all or most of the frequencies in the audible range by playing test tones. It is impossible to measure frequency response with music.

That is what I thought and there is a specific reason I asked that question. People said that "accuracy" is concrete. So when others in this thread mentioned that they listened to "complex passages of music" and thought that the speakers were "accurate" they surely weren't talking about the measured response to test tones? So I don't get how this is now an unambiguous description of audio. I'll let it go now. Thanks for the explanation. 


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post #2547 of 3734 Old 12-19-2013, 03:00 AM
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Good. No point in getting all hung up on semantics. Language is a poor medium for expressing emotional reactions.
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post #2548 of 3734 Old 12-19-2013, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by VS85 View Post

Thanks. Watch from around 20:16 to hear Barenboim use the word "dry" to describe the sound Lang Lang was producing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dwegqniNg&nofeather=True. It is a very common descriptor of sound at least in the recording and instrumental circles and most people in these circles know exactly what that means.

Can you tell me how to measure accuracy? You mention a flat response. Do you have standard sounds that you play to record the response of the speakers or do you just play your CDs and measure response?

Yeah you have to measure test tones to get an idea of their frequency response curve. Fortunately a lot of speakers are measured and you can find good graphs at places like htlabs.

In the end, as long as you are happy with the sound, that's all that matters.

Denon AVR-1713 | EMP E55Ti | EMP E56Ci | EMP E5Bi | BIC F-12
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post #2549 of 3734 Old 12-19-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by lsturbointeg View Post

So im currently running the Emptek series for about 1 1/2 years. For whatever reasons im not sure if its my AVR or the speaker itself but my AVR shuts off during loud playback and after weeks of troubleshooting my emptek E55wi(SR) is the culprit. I have it completely disconnected now and the AVR no longer shuts off during loud playback. Any ideas? I am gonna swap the SL and see if it does it too.

Replace the wire, it's probably a short.
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post #2550 of 3734 Old 12-19-2013, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregoryperkins View Post

Replace the wire, it's probably a short.

Sounds like the issue to me also

Panny 65st60 / Denon X1000 / EMP e55ti / EMP e56ci / EMP e5bi / (2) e1010i
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