B&W CM1...all I can say is WOW! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

As soon as someone tries to change your opinion based on their piece of "evidence", that is a good sign they are trying to sell you something.

Right! Anyone who would point you toward objective, third-party laboratory measurements surely has some evil intentions. Especially someone who recommends buying used speakers that cost less than a third of what you just looked at.

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Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

The most important thing that I've learned when buying new gear is to "trust your ears".

More good advice. Don't leverage objective information like measurements. Just read reviews, marketing material and above all solicit the advice of perfect strangers on audio forums. People who write stuff like "I own them and they're great!" or "I do blind testing in my living room" or "I heard them at a local hifi shop" should have way more credibility than a state of the art third party laboratory. This is truly the way to take advantage of the knowledge available on the internet!
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post #92 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by markwriter View Post

The degree to which the speaker refrains from over over or under emphasizing frequencies is the degree to which the speaker can be considered hi-fi. This is properly done in anechoic chambers so that the output of the speaker can be studied and not contaminated with room reflections. Most people these days make do with pseudo-anechoic measurements, but these are second-rate because the gates are too short to capture certain resonances (also explained in the NRC research).

Unfortunately, you still haven't answered the question. How is anechoic flat FR a representation of accuracy? Or better yet accurate to what truth as the definition implies?
Not trying to bait you here, just for each piece of music, we have no way of discerning the playback environment used to finalize the recording, therefore we may never be 'accurate' to the recording. If your explanation is correct, then it must be assumed that mixdown sessions take place in anechoic chambers with tuned systems to flat FR. There must be a reason for as many as 7 bands or more of tunable, sweepable PeQ on modern mixing consoles?
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post #93 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

there are lots of great speakers that would also be good alternatives to the CM1 if you are looking for similar sized mini-monitors.

for a fraction of the cost:
Energy C-3, RC-10. Infinity Beta 20, Revel M12. Also see Paradigm, PSB and Axiom.

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Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

I'll gladly give some recommendations (based on what I heard, not FR graphs).

As an alternative to making your decision based on anecdotal evidence about specific speakers, here is a great article on how good speaker engineering works: The Science of Audio - a series of lectures by Floyd E. Toole, Ph.D

Here's a Paradigm Factory Tour where they talk alot about design methodology.

Here's another good one about design methodology.
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post #94 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

If your explanation is correct, then it must be assumed that mixdown sessions take place in anechoic chambers with tuned systems to flat FR.

A flat FR means that the speaker is passing the waveform along unchanged. Whether the original recording was good or bad, the speaker will reproduce it faithfully.

Also, just to be clear, I mean FR as the whole family of curves that NRC-influenced companies rely on. Here's an explanation of Revel's taken from here:

"controlled and consistent dispersion coupled with smooth off-axis response up to 75 degrees is vitally important for best in-room performance under real-world conditions. Colored off-axis response degrades timbre in both early arrival and reverberant field response. It also causes greater sensitivity to room placement when, especially at midrange and upper frequencies, the on- and off-axis behavior vary widely.

It’s important to remember that while an isolated, flat on-axis measurement looks impressive on paper, it may sound anything but unless accompanied by an equally smooth off-axis family of curves. Voecks pointed out that while certain manufacturers already consider smooth off-axis response up to 30 degrees, their own research shows that the majority of first side-wall reflections actually occur as far as 60-75 degrees off-axis. He believes that Revel is one of only very few manufacturers that not only produces measurements up to 75 degrees off-axis but deliberately designs their speakers for the most consistent and uniform response in such a broad horizontal field. Incidentally, SoundStage! also produces measurements at 0, 15, 30, 60, and 75 degrees in a true anechoic environment -- the only North American-based publication to do so.

How to apply measurements matters as much as taking them in the first place

To predict final in-room performance, Revel practices what’s called simple spatial averaging. It combines various +/- 10-, 20- and 30-degree left/right and 10-degree up/down response curves and avoids the measuring blindness that occurs with one-third-octave smoothing. A spatially averaged frequency-response curve does show spectral balance and bandwidth as well as resonant spikes. If an apparent resonance on a single-point on-axis curve still shows up in spatial averaging, it’s a resonance and not just simple interference. Certain measurements must then be looked at both in isolation and as part of a comprehensive group of graphs. This process increases graphic resolution to remain on par with what’s clearly audible. Now audible problems can be identified as to origin and be addressed in the design process. This correlates with the axiom that one only visits a doctor when one knows oneself to be sick. Diagnosing less-than-wellness can be a tricky proposition.

We now understand that to truly map a speaker’s listening window requires a lot more measurements than seem obvious at first. Let’s say you assumed that because you’re sitting in front of a speaker, the only relevant data are to be obtained by measuring what the speaker is doing in that direction. You’d be all wrong. In fact, Revel performs a total of 72 anechoic point measurements all around a speaker during research and development. Afterwards, they correlate the predictions based on those graphs with double-blind listening tests as well as listening sessions in their real-world listening rooms to assure that what measures right sounds right and vice versa.

Consider Revel’s insistence about the importance of looking at a whole family of curves and their combined effects. Doesn’t this render certain isolated curves and graphs published in both promotional literature and reviews less than relevant? After all, speaker measurements performed with a nearfield microphone, whether on- or off-axis, don’t account for the effects of early and late reflections which, as Revel indicated, make up the majority of sound that is received at an actual listener’s ears. Without an accompanying family plot of off-axis graphs, an isolated on-axis frequency-response does not represent what a speaker will actually sound like in an average environment."
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post #95 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:42 PM
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MCATUCCI,

Some higher priced speaker companies like B&W make also very beautiful cabinets, so if you find some other cheaper speakers sound better than B&W, then do not forget to compare the quality of cabinets.
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post #96 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:45 PM
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KyaDawn writes:

Quote:


The most important thing that I've learned when buying new gear is to "trust your ears".

markwriter replies:
Quote:


More good advice. Don't leverage objective information like measurements. Just read reviews, marketing material and above all solicit the advice of perfect strangers on audio forums. People who write stuff like "I own them and they're great!" or "I do blind testing in my living room" or "I heard them at a local hifi shop" should have way more credibility than a state of the art third party laboratory. This is truly the way to take advantage of the knowledge available on the internet!

Um, did you even bother to read what you are replying to? Or do you suggest that the OP should buy speakers based on some published measurements instead of, you know, actually listening to speakers?

You might be quite content to purchase speakers based only on published FR charts, but most of us prefer to make our decision based on what we hear.
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post #97 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgriel View Post

KyaDawn writes:



markwriter replies:


Um, did you even bother to read what you are replying to? Or do you suggest that the OP should buy speakers based on some published measurements instead of, you know, actually listening to speakers?

You might be quite content to purchase speakers based only on published FR charts, but most of us prefer to make our decision based on what we hear.

I said he should leverage the objective reports that warpy's been dissing. I never said 'don't listen'. I merely used the objective testing to recommend that he not give B&W $1000 for substandard speakers, that maybe shopping a little more would yield better results for much less money. There's objective evidence for both of my recommendations that I put in the post for convenience.
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post #98 of 168 Old 01-02-2009, 11:25 PM
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forgive me if the post is less than perfectly coherent, i've just returned for the evening.

markwriter: Having something be "perfect" and having something be "pleasing" are very different things. Yes, the CM1 adds color, I heard it in my audition. But it added it in such a way that I found it beneficial to the recordings that I brought along, and instead of being detrimental, I thought it relaxing and pleasing - more so than the PSBs, Paradigms, Focals, Phases, and Polks that I heard. So tell me: should I have purchased something for $900 that I found pleasing, or spent $800 (Phases and Focals) or $500 (PSBs) on speakers that I found less pleasing, but were told were more accurate?

MCATUCCI: I know it's hard to move away from first loves (yours being the CM1), but go try out the other fish in the sea. You may find something you like better for less money. After you go ahead and try, then come back to the CM1s (and the 685s, which have a fairly similar sound and range) - if they still wow you like they did when you first tried them, then that's what you should go for. You've gotten many suggestions so far - you won't be disappointed you tried.
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post #99 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 07:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post

markwriter: Having something be "perfect" and having something be "pleasing" are very different things.

The NRC research showed through hundreds of DBT's that accurate is indeed more pleasing.
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post #100 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wgriel View Post

KyaDawn writes:

The most important thing that I've learned when buying new gear is to "trust your ears".

markwriter replies:

More good advice. Don't leverage objective information like measurements. Just read reviews, marketing material and above all solicit the advice of perfect strangers on audio forums. People who write stuff like "I own them and they're great!" or "I do blind testing in my living room" or "I heard them at a local hifi shop" should have way more credibility than a state of the art third party laboratory. This is truly the way to take advantage of the knowledge available on the internet!

Um, did you even bother to read what you are replying to? Or do you suggest that the OP should buy speakers based on some published measurements instead of, you know, actually listening to speakers?

You might be quite content to purchase speakers based only on published FR charts, but most of us prefer to make our decision based on what we hear.

That guy is trying so hard to be Alimentall Jr., it's hilarious! I can respect John for being at least knowledgeable and having some self-effacing qualities, but this guy comes off more as a used car salesman than anything else.

He shred any last bit of "credibility" that he had (and not saying he had much) when he claimed the B&W DM303s were superior to the CM1s, all on the basis of a couple of graphs. The DM303s are good speakers for their price, but are no way in the same league as the CM1s.

Of course he wouldn't know this from listening to the speakers themselves. As he has admitted, he's never even heard the CM1s! What a joke.

From the way he tried to spin my advice to the OP to "trust your ears", you know he'll twist anything to make a sale. And guys like that you don't need advice from.
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post #101 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCATUCCI View Post

Hello again, Im the OP.

Let me clarify a bit......


Up until the other day when I first listened to the B&W I had never been in an audio boutique and I had never listened to anything outside of a Best Buy or Circuit City type of store. When I heard the CM1 I was blown away by the full sound and nice detailed highs that were coming from such a small speaker and at such high volumes. In my search so far it was either nice highs but no low end, or nice bass, but muddy highs. Here was the first speaker that I heard that actually had both.

It was also the first speaker that I have heard since starting this venture a few weeks ago that didn't mush some of my rock cd demos that I brought with me for demo'ing such as Daughtry. It also appealed to me because of my size limitations, it was again the best speaker I have heard and still is.

However, I am trying to stretch my wings so to speak and will try other brands outside of the Big box stores. I have also found some towers that may fit my size limits that both Energy and Paradigm make. I am not familar with either of these companies products, although I grew up knowing Paradigm is one of the higher end speaker manufacturers. So my search for the perfect speaker in my budget continues and the CM1's are on hold for now. Now I just have to find someone local that has the Energy and Paradigms to demo for me.

I would suggest you go out and bring your own favorite music and listen to every speaker you can. It took me a month or so of listen to all sorts of speakers until I reached a conclusion. Also it is a long shot sometimes but ask the dealer if you could do a comparison of the speakers in your own home. All the graphs in lab settings are nice but that lab is not your room.
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post #102 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post

forgive me if the post is less than perfectly coherent, i've just returned for the evening.

markwriter: Having something be "perfect" and having something be "pleasing" are very different things. Yes, the CM1 adds color, I heard it in my audition. But it added it in such a way that I found it beneficial to the recordings that I brought along, and instead of being detrimental, I thought it relaxing and pleasing - more so than the PSBs, Paradigms, Focals, Phases, and Polks that I heard. So tell me: should I have purchased something for $900 that I found pleasing, or spent $800 (Phases and Focals) or $500 (PSBs) on speakers that I found less pleasing, but were told were more accurate?

MCATUCCI: I know it's hard to move away from first loves (yours being the CM1), but go try out the other fish in the sea. You may find something you like better for less money. After you go ahead and try, then come back to the CM1s (and the 685s, which have a fairly similar sound and range) - if they still wow you like they did when you first tried them, then that's what you should go for. You've gotten many suggestions so far - you won't be disappointed you tried.

Buy whatever pleases you, but make sure you audition enough that you know what you buy is not just the flavor of the month. I have auditioned speakers that I found pleasing for the first 1 hr. After listening for 3 hours, I found that I had gotten over them and found them meh.
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post #103 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 06:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

The DM303s are good speakers for their price, but are no way in the same league as the CM1s.

True...the CM1's are way more expensive. That makes them much much better, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

From the way he tried to spin my advice to the OP to "trust your ears", you know he'll twist anything to make a sale.

You got me. I get a commission from craigslist on every sale of used speakers.
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post #104 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 08:05 PM
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Would a set of Quad 22L2 (woven kevlar cones) match well with a B&W CDM CNT center?

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post #105 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Update from OP...


I went out yesterday and listened to several speakers. Some from Energy and some from Def Tech. They were all ok, but I thought all were a bit high priced.

Listen to a Monitor Audio R270 slim tower which was kinda nice.

And then I heard Paradigm.

B&W cm what?

As of right now I am of the opinion Paradigm makes the best speakers.

For less than 2/3 of the price the Paradigm Atoms were as good and in my opinion (my ears) even better than the CM1's. I swore the guy had a center channel playing during my demo and I even went up to them and felt each center to confirm there was no center on. The soundfield created by these speakers was crazy good. And for 250.00 for the pair!!!

I also heard some Paradigm Monitors and then the Millenia 200's. I ended up buying the Millenia 200's because he price matched an internet price of $848.00 for the pair out the door and secondly for where I need them they just work better than the Atoms. But if Im being honest in reality that little Atom is a better sounding speaker than the Millenia and Im regretting not buying it.
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post #106 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 09:51 PM
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I'm glad you were able to find some speakers to compare against! Have fun with your new speakers!
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post #107 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCATUCCI View Post

Update from OP...


I went out yesterday and listened to several speakers. Some from Energy and some from Def Tech. They were all ok, but I thought all were a bit high priced.

Listen to a Monitor Audio R270 slim tower which was kinda nice.

And then I heard Paradigm.

B&W cm what?

As of right now I am of the opinion Paradigm makes the best speakers.

For less than 2/3 of the price the Paradigm Atoms were as good and in my opinion (my ears) even better than the CM1's. I swore the guy had a center channel playing during my demo and I even went up to them and felt each center to confirm there was no center on. The soundfield created by these speakers was crazy good. And for 250.00 for the pair!!!

I also heard some Paradigm Monitors and then the Millenia 200's. I ended up buying the Millenia 200's because he price matched an internet price of $848.00 for the pair out the door and secondly for where I need them they just work better than the Atoms. But if Im being honest in reality that little Atom is a better sounding speaker than the Millenia and Im regretting not buying it.

That's may be because an MT or mid-tweeter design has better off axis response than an MTM( mid-tweeter-mid) at closer listening distances. The drivers in an MTM need more distance for the drivers to 'sum' than an MT, with comb filtering effects rearing up from the MTM. The smaller enclosure and baffle width of the millenia are also tradeoffs in such a space saving design. You may be listening too close. Experiment with placement and let them break in some. New drivers have tight suspensions but after breaking in awhile sound A LOT better, as is the case with your dealers speakers.

If you're still not happy, see if you can audition some Titan Monitors. I was absolutely floored by performance of these with a 10" sub. Even though i'm flush with speakers right now, they were almost too good to pass up for $700/pr.
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post #108 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCATUCCI View Post

Update from OP...


I went out yesterday and listened to several speakers. Some from Energy and some from Def Tech. They were all ok, but I thought all were a bit high priced.

Listen to a Monitor Audio R270 slim tower which was kinda nice.

And then I heard Paradigm.

B&W cm what?

As of right now I am of the opinion Paradigm makes the best speakers.

For less than 2/3 of the price the Paradigm Atoms were as good and in my opinion (my ears) even better than the CM1's. I swore the guy had a center channel playing during my demo and I even went up to them and felt each center to confirm there was no center on. The soundfield created by these speakers was crazy good. And for 250.00 for the pair!!!

I also heard some Paradigm Monitors and then the Millenia 200's. I ended up buying the Millenia 200's because he price matched an internet price of $848.00 for the pair out the door and secondly for where I need them they just work better than the Atoms. But if Im being honest in reality that little Atom is a better sounding speaker than the Millenia and Im regretting not buying it.

Congrats man enjoy the music! Also you could post in the 2ch section thread what are you listening to know thread. I am always interested in hearing new music choices by others.
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post #109 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 10:45 PM
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The only way to get the best for your money is to get speakers from a few B&M brands that utilize harman kardon's testing facilities.
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post #110 of 168 Old 01-03-2009, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gchanjam View Post

On a side note, markwriter, do you happen to work for Harman or one of their subsidiaries? It seems like every other post you makes just happens to gush about Harman's engineers and labs and R&D and so on.

Very entertaining thread.

Markwriter,
You seem to have addressed all other questions in this thread except this one by member gchanjam, so I'll ask it again (and expand on it). Are you in any way affiliated with any of the speaker companies you repeatedly mention, especially any of the Harman group? Do sell or market any of their products? Are you in any way affiliated with the NRC?

These are natural questions based on a quick review of your history of posts.

Thanks.

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post #111 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

Very entertaining thread.

Markwriter,
You seem to have addressed all other questions in this thread except this one by member gchanjam, so I'll ask it again (and expand on it). Are you in any way affiliated with any of the speaker companies you repeatedly mention, especially any of the Harman group? Do sell or market any of their products? Are you in any way affiliated with the NRC?

These are natural questions based on a quick review of your history of posts.

Thanks.

My take on him is that I don't think he's affiliated with anything, he's probably just a fanboy who's drunken the Harman koolaid, owns some form of Revel speakers (coming from Infinity Primus IIRC), and loves to assert his "knowledge" based on reading the NRC and Harman white papers. These kinds of posters are always prevalent on any forum, the ones that instead of actually driving, tasting, or hearing the product in question, they do all their "research" by looking at charts, pouring over benchmark tests and figures. Like on the sub forum, there are those who continue to post "rankings by the panel of experts" or maximum output ratings by a guy named Tom, his evidence of speaker performance is all based on a few graphs. Of course, he can't explain to us how these graphs correlate to anything related to reality, and whether the speaker will sound good because he hasn't conducted any listening tests himself, nor has he actually heard half the speakers that he's recommending. He's no more in the know that those of us that also have access to those same facts (by a neat search tool called "google"), but of course, he'll continue to post the same verbal drivel based on the reputation of any company that has gone near the NRC facility. I don't know if he would ever admit it but I suspect he may be the type who buys a speaker without hearing it firsthand, going purely on the measurements, and brand name.

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post #112 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 10:06 AM
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I just started auditioning speakers yesterday after reading the boards for a couple weeks and I have to agree with the original OP. Out of all the speakers I listed to the CM1 and CM5 were the best sounding of the day. I drove about 3 hours to Nashville and checked out a local dealer there that had B&W, Klipsch, and Definitive. I also went to the BB in town there with a magnolia sectioned and they had Martin Logans, Klipsch, and Definitive.

There honestly was not a single Klipsch speakers that I liked, they all sounded harsh to me...even ones that were $1500 each. The Martin Logans were ok, but they were very directional. Definitive was probably my second favorite, but compared to the prices of the B&W to the definitive they were about the same (at least in stores). Absolute favorite was the B&W though.

I'm an audio noob, no doubt about it, but can only tell you what my ears heard. I did think the bookshelf speakers sounded better than their towers that were $1500 each and less. I honestly didn't like any floorstanding speakers at either store except the B&W 802's which were 7k a pair (just wanted to listed to something awesome!). They had thor's hammer as well which was 22k, but unfortunately it wasn't hooked up just yet.

I listed to all the speakers at both stores on a Denon 1909 (although the one at best buy was shutting off every 45 seconds or so) which is in my price range of new receivers.

Mind you I haven't checked out any other brands of speakers than the few I listed because I haven't been able to find a retailer around, but the B&W CM series was by far the best. I listed to a few center channels as well from all the brands and wasn't impressed by any of them, but I only listed to the center solo so I could tell the difference in each.

The CM1 were $500 each and the CM5 were $750 each. When I first started auditioning he said that these are all starting prices. He said he would have to call Monday to see when an order could be placed as I would need a black finish so we didn't talk prices just yet. Since he did state that he will negotiate, any idea what kind of room the dealers can play with? I think I remember reading you can't get B&W online so I would have to get it from them, but it would be nice if I knew what profit margin there is normally so I can see how much I can get them for.

I'll also try to keep looking for speakers as I only got to try a few brands out, but it is extremely difficult to find any speakers in rural america. Thanks for everyone's input so far.
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post #113 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 10:10 AM
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For less than 2/3 of the price the Paradigm Atoms were as good and in my opinion (my ears) even better than the CM1's. I swore the guy had a center channel playing during my demo and I even went up to them and felt each center to confirm there was no center on. The soundfield created by these speakers was crazy good. And for 250.00 for the pair!!!

I also heard some Paradigm Monitors and then the Millenia 200's. I ended up buying the Millenia 200's because he price matched an internet price of $848.00 for the pair out the door and secondly for where I need them they just work better than the Atoms. But if Im being honest in reality that little Atom is a better sounding speaker than the Millenia and Im regretting not buying it.

Congratulations on finding something you like!

Paradigm certainly make some good speakers and are a good value. I own some Atoms and do think they are a sweet speaker for the price. I'm sure the Millenia will give you hours of listening pleasure.
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post #114 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 10:32 AM
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I just started auditioning speakers yesterday after reading the boards for a couple weeks and I have to agree with the original OP. Out of all the speakers I listed to the CM1 and CM5 were the best sounding of the day. I drove about 3 hours to Nashville and checked out a local dealer there that had B&W, Klipsch, and Definitive. I also went to the BB in town there with a magnolia sectioned and they had Martin Logans, Klipsch, and Definitive.

There honestly was not a single Klipsch speakers that I liked, they all sounded harsh to me...even ones that were $1500 each. The Martin Logans were ok, but they were very directional. Definitive was probably my second favorite, but compared to the prices of the B&W to the definitive they were about the same (at least in stores). Absolute favorite was the B&W though.

I'm an audio noob, no doubt about it, but can only tell you what my ears heard. I did think the bookshelf speakers sounded better than their towers that were $1500 each and less. I honestly didn't like any floorstanding speakers at either store except the B&W 802's which were 7k a pair (just wanted to listed to something awesome!). They had thor's hammer as well which was 22k, but unfortunately it wasn't hooked up just yet.

I listed to all the speakers at both stores on a Denon 1909 (although the one at best buy was shutting off every 45 seconds or so) which is in my price range of new receivers.

Mind you I haven't checked out any other brands of speakers than the few I listed because I haven't been able to find a retailer around, but the B&W CM series was by far the best. I listed to a few center channels as well from all the brands and wasn't impressed by any of them, but I only listed to the center solo so I could tell the difference in each.

The CM1 were $500 each and the CM5 were $750 each. When I first started auditioning he said that these are all starting prices. He said he would have to call Monday to see when an order could be placed as I would need a black finish so we didn't talk prices just yet. Since he did state that he will negotiate, any idea what kind of room the dealers can play with? I think I remember reading you can't get B&W online so I would have to get it from them, but it would be nice if I knew what profit margin there is normally so I can see how much I can get them for.

I'll also try to keep looking for speakers as I only got to try a few brands out, but it is extremely difficult to find any speakers in rural america. Thanks for everyone's input so far.

What were your impressions of the CM5? It is a brand new speaker and I've only heard the CM1 and CM7 speakers. I haven't heard the CM9 which is also new. BTW, the 802d is 7k$ EACH, not for the pair

We can't really discuss non MSRP pricing here on the forums, but I will tell you that the amount you can negotiate depends on the dealer. If the dealer sells a lot of B&W and has a good client base, You can get between 10-15%. If he offers more than 15% jump at it. If he offers between 5-10%, try to ask for 10%.

My local dealer offered 10% for a pair of B&W speakers, but when I told him of my interest in buying some amplification, the negotiation magically increased to 12.5%. So... as you can see, the negotiation is somewhat fluid.
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post #115 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 10:38 AM
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Thank you jonomega for the info about the dealers.

Ya the 802d's were 7k each...unfortunately they had already sold the matching center but had a firehawk (i think) that was a little less than 7k. It sounded crazy good.

As I said before, I'm an audio noob (just now getting into the whole audio field, I currently have an Onkyo HTIB and a Bic H-100 sub).

I would describe the CM5 as very similar to the CM1 with a little more fullness in the mids. They were pretty much identical except for the mids which were a little better. I don't know if they are $250 a speaker better considering the CM1 is only $500 each, but they were both very nice.
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post #116 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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vili,

I can't stress this enough.....before you pluck down your hard earned cash, go out and find someone who sells Paradigm speakers. I thought the CM1 was it for me until I heard some Paradigms. For a heck of a lot less money they produce as good (and in my opinion better) sound and they beat the CM1 in creating a realistic soundfield. Another thing I forgot to mention....I auditioned the CM1's in an audio boutique in a treated room with huge dampers and a whole bunch of other sound optimizing gadgets. The Paradigms I auditioned were being sold in a small town right on main street in a small used record store. It was dusty and gloomy and trust me, there were no sound enhancing techniques being used. And despite this the Paradigms still BLEW me away.
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post #117 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 11:51 AM
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I'm not really sure where I would find a Paradigm dealer as the one shop in Nashville was really the only one that even had a place to audition speakers and that is the capital of my state! I'll definately look though.

The room that I was in didn't appear to be treated with anything, I didn't see any panels or anything like that, but I don't know what alot of the gadgets look like so that could be part of it.
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post #118 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MCATUCCI View Post

vili,

I can't stress this enough.....before you pluck down your hard earned cash, go out and find someone who sells Paradigm speakers. I thought the CM1 was it for me until I heard some Paradigms. For a heck of a lot less money they produce as good (and in my opinion better) sound and they beat the CM1 in creating a realistic soundfield. Another thing I forgot to mention....I auditioned the CM1's in an audio boutique in a treated room with huge dampers and a whole bunch of other sound optimizing gadgets. The Paradigms I auditioned were being sold in a small town right on main street in a small used record store. It was dusty and gloomy and trust me, there were no sound enhancing techniques being used. And despite this the Paradigms still BLEW me away.

While both speakers are good and different, do realize that the different environments do make a huge difference on the sound quality. In fact, I would say it is difficult to make any conclusions for any comparisons done between different rooms. Rooms can impart a ± 20 dB variation on the FR of the speaker, and this is very audible. Different rooms impart their own variations. Not to mention, the variations in the time domain with decay times. These room variations and decay times make up quite a large portion of what actually reaches your ears.
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post #119 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 12:14 PM
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Update from OP...


I went out yesterday and listened to several speakers. Some from Energy and some from Def Tech. They were all ok, but I thought all were a bit high priced.

Listen to a Monitor Audio R270 slim tower which was kinda nice.

And then I heard Paradigm.

B&W cm what?

As of right now I am of the opinion Paradigm makes the best speakers.

For less than 2/3 of the price the Paradigm Atoms were as good and in my opinion (my ears) even better than the CM1's. I swore the guy had a center channel playing during my demo and I even went up to them and felt each center to confirm there was no center on. The soundfield created by these speakers was crazy good. And for 250.00 for the pair!!!

I also heard some Paradigm Monitors and then the Millenia 200's. I ended up buying the Millenia 200's because he price matched an internet price of $848.00 for the pair out the door and secondly for where I need them they just work better than the Atoms. But if Im being honest in reality that little Atom is a better sounding speaker than the Millenia and Im regretting not buying it.

Wow...

Well from your post history, it seems you were asking about Paradigms even before you heard the CM1s so it's good that you were finally able to listen and purchase the speakers you were already interested in.

It does seem that you have a bit of buyer's remorse over purchasing the Millenia 200s over the Atoms, and at more than 3 times the price!

One thing I've learned about speakers is that if you're not happy with them when you get them home, and especially if it's because you heard another pair that you liked better, it nags at you for a long time. Sometimes you get over it, but more often than not, you end up selling them for a loss and buying the pair that you wanted originally.

So my point is would you dealer consider letting you return the Millenia 200s and buying the Atoms? If the Atoms are what you like best, you should definitely just get them.
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post #120 of 168 Old 01-04-2009, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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KyaDawn,

Believe me, I've been considering it all weekend. I'll probably call him tomorrow and ask what his policy is. Still not sure I want to trade the Millenia back but it has been consuming me since I pulled away from his store. The reason I walked out with the Millenia was...

1. Doesn't costing more mean they are better?

2. They were selling for 1,200/pair but he matched a sale from the web for 848/pair, hard to pass that up.

3. They do fit better where I need them too. With a bookshelf I would have to raise the TV by building something or keep the Atoms only about 10" off the floor.
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