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post #31 of 49 Old 03-11-2009, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Another realization on my part: "Pure Audio" mode on my Onkyo Pre/Pro allows even more detail to pass through. Once again, probably obvious but I really noticed it on Dave Matthews' Band "Crash" album. There are lots of instruments and subtleties throughout this album. With "Pure Audio" mode enabled, it is as though a thin veil had been removed from the sound stage (my wife agreed with me she could hear the difference). So no subwoofer will be used for serious 2-channel listening .
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post #32 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 02:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Just a quick question here. Now that the initial novelty is starting to wear off, I am starting to wonder which component upgrades would likely push the performance up even higher. I feel like the system is right on the edge of being really amazing, but not quite there. Specifically, I wish there was just a tad more detail to make images more lifelike. Also, I would say the sound really comes to life when playing at louder volumes - but I wish it retained that same level of detail and imaging when playing at lower volumes...Is this an amp, preamp or even interconnect issue?? I am currently using basic $10 6ft. XLR cables and 10-gauge OFC stranded speaker wire (from Parts Express) with bare terminals.

I'd appreciate hearing any perspectives or suggestions. I really don't want to spend much more right now, but I'd like to know what would make the biggest difference for the least cost...Thank you.
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post #33 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 05:18 AM
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get a tube pre with HT passthrough like an Odyssey Candela. It will make a huge difference than using your Onkyo.

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post #34 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post

Just a quick question here. Now that the initial novelty is starting to wear off, I am starting to wonder which component upgrades would likely push the performance up even higher. I feel like the system is right on the edge of being really amazing, but not quite there. Specifically, I wish there was just a tad more detail to make images more lifelike. Also, I would say the sound really comes to life when playing at louder volumes - but I wish it retained that same level of detail and imaging when playing at lower volumes...Is this an amp, preamp or even interconnect issue?? I am currently using basic $10 6ft. XLR cables and 10-gauge OFC stranded speaker wire (from Parts Express) with bare terminals.

I'd appreciate hearing any perspectives or suggestions. I really don't want to spend much more right now, but I'd like to know what would make the biggest difference for the least cost...Thank you.

I would consider some room treatment. Maybe some DIY acoustic treatment that are removeable (on stands?) as this is your living room that you could bring in for critical listening. I'm sure more people could give suggestions on what might work (eg. Owens Corning 703 board wrapped in acoustic transparent fabric; place the panels behind each LS6 and at first reflection point maybe to start?). This is the next step in my room, and from what I've read makes a significant difference.

Darren A.
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post #35 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by optoguy View Post

I would consider some room treatment. Maybe some DIY acoustic treatment that are removeable (on stands?) as this is your living room that you could bring in for critical listening. I'm sure more people could give suggestions on what might work (eg. Owens Corning 703 board wrapped in acoustic transparent fabric; place the panels behind each LS6 and at first reflection point maybe to start?). This is the next step in my room, and from what I've read makes a significant difference.

Darren A.

Thanks, Darren - I appreciate the suggestion. When I move to a house (likely in the next few months), I will have a dedicated room that I will certainly treat. I'm actually a good 3-4 feet from each side wall but pretty close to the back wall (about 18" from back of the speaker). I understand that bass will smooth out from room treatments (back wall in particular), but will it affect imaging and perceived detail very much given that I'm not very close to side walls?
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post #36 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcallister View Post

get a tube pre with HT passthrough like an Odyssey Candela. It will make a huge difference than using your Onkyo.

Do you think this would make a bigger difference than an amp (Behringer EP2500) upgrade? I'm pretty new to role that all the components play to create hi-end sound, but I do know it when I hear it. Could you explain from a technical point of view how the preamp makes could make such a difference? I'm imagining that a good preamp does a better job preserving the waveform over a large range of gains, thus preserving detail and imaging cues at lower volumes...does that sound right?
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post #37 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post

Thanks, Darren - I appreciate the suggestion. When I move to a house (likely in the next few months), I will have a dedicated room that I will certainly treat. I'm actually a good 3-4 feet from each side wall but pretty close to the back wall (about 18" from back of the speaker). I understand that bass will smooth out from room treatments (back wall in particular), but will it affect imaging and perceived detail very much given that I'm not very close to side walls?

I believe it does improve detail and imaging. The bass tend to gather in the corners so bass traps help there. The treatments I would suggest trying are for behind the speakers on the front wall and the first reflection point on the side walls. The sound from the speakers (mid and high) arrive at your ears in 2 ways (very basic!): 1. sound from the speaker directly to your ears 2. sound from the speaker, which bounces off of the walls (and floor and ceiling) and then arrive at your ears, but a little later. This can "smear" the sound from the speaker. So I found that a treated room (for bass as well as some absorbers for the first reflections) can definitely help with the imaging and detail.

I gave a really basic explanation, but if you want to read more (and really confuse yourself!) go to the acoustics treatment master thread stickied in the Dedicated Room construction thread (under "Home entertainment and Theater bilder). It's really long, but there's tons of info there from experts (I am definitely not one of them!).

Darren A.
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post #38 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by optoguy View Post

I believe it does improve detail and imaging. The bass tend to gather in the corners so bass traps help there. The treatments I would suggest trying are for behind the speakers on the front wall and the first reflection point on the side walls. The sound from the speakers (mid and high) arrive at your ears in 2 ways (very basic!): 1. sound from the speaker directly to your ears 2. sound from the speaker, which bounces off of the walls (and floor and ceiling) and then arrive at your ears, but a little later. This can "smear" the sound from the speaker. So I found that a treated room (for bass as well as some absorbers for the first reflections) can definitely help with the imaging and detail.

I gave a really basic explanation, but if you want to read more (and really confuse yourself!) go to the acoustics treatment master thread stickied in the Dedicated Room construction thread (under "Home entertainment and Theater bilder). It's really long, but there's tons of info there from experts (I am definitely not one of them!).

Darren A.

Thanks - I'll definitely check it out. Part of the fun of this hobby for me is the learning and understanding of how everything works.
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post #39 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 12:52 PM
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Thanks - I'll definitely check it out. Part of the fun of this hobby for me is the learning and understanding of how everything works.

Me too. Unfortunately my bank account seems to suffer because of it!

Darren A.
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post #40 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post

Just a quick question here. Now that the initial novelty is starting to wear off, I am starting to wonder which component upgrades would likely push the performance up even higher. I feel like the system is right on the edge of being really amazing, but not quite there. Specifically, I wish there was just a tad more detail to make images more lifelike. Also, I would say the sound really comes to life when playing at louder volumes - but I wish it retained that same level of detail and imaging when playing at lower volumes...Is this an amp, preamp or even interconnect issue?? I am currently using basic $10 6ft. XLR cables and 10-gauge OFC stranded speaker wire (from Parts Express) with bare terminals.

I'd appreciate hearing any perspectives or suggestions. I really don't want to spend much more right now, but I'd like to know what would make the biggest difference for the least cost...Thank you.

First of all, I wonder if you realize how incredibly fortunate you are to be able to get these speakers so quickly. Many have been waiting for a long, long time as AV123 had to deal with production issues. For example, I am still waiting after ordering the LS6's big brother, the LS9, back in October, 2007, after hearing them at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest that year.

In addition to installing room treatments and a high quality stereo preamp with HT bypass (which doesn't have to be a tube, in my opinion), consider a DAC if you are using a CD player with a digital out. I added a Channel Islands VDA2 and it's companion power supply and was astounded by the sound improvement. Feed this source directly into your new preamp to fully realize the benefits of the better analog section of the new preamp.
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post #41 of 49 Old 03-14-2009, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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First of all, I wonder if you realize how incredibly fortunate you are to be able to get these speakers so quickly. Many have been waiting for a long, long time as AV123 had to deal with production issues. For example, I am still waiting after ordering the LS6's big brother, the LS9, back in October, 2007, after hearing them at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest that year.

In addition to installing room treatments and a high quality stereo preamp with HT bypass (which doesn't have to be a tube, in my opinion), consider a DAC if you are using a CD player with a digital out. I added a Channel Islands VDA2 and it's companion power supply and was astounded by the sound improvement. Feed this source directly into your new preamp to fully realize the benefits of the better analog section of the new preamp.

Oh, I do realize how fortunate I am (see my earlier posts on this thread about how I came to own these)....And thank you for the suggestions about the DAC and preamp. When my budget allows for it, I think I'll invest in these first.
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post #42 of 49 Old 03-15-2009, 08:31 AM
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Just to share that I'm as thrilled as you with the LS6s.
Because we build them here in South America (not the Piano ones those are made in China), I won't comment on them in terms of sound quality, I don't want to sound like selling.
But I'm thrilled!!!
Some photos. Sorry for the pic quality but I have a window that doesn't really help. The gear is PSAudio 250W Amp, Shanling Mod 3 Tube CD player, Dodd Preamp, PSAudio Soloist wall inlet and PSAudio Plant Premier.

Santiago
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #43 of 49 Old 03-15-2009, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to share that I'm as thrilled as you with the LS6s.
Because we build them here in South America (not the Piano ones those are made in China), I won't comment on them in terms of sound quality, I don't want to sound like selling.
But I'm thrilled!!!
Some photos. Sorry for the pic quality but I have a window that doesn't really help. The gear is PSAudio 250W Amp, Shanling Mod 3 Tube CD player, Dodd Preamp, PSAudio Soloist wall inlet and PSAudio Plant Premier.

Santiago

Wow! That's quite the system you have there with the power conditioning and all. I assume you are very happy with your PS Audio gear??...

Just to clarify, are you referring to the enclosure only or the whole speaker made in China vs. South America? I was told by AV123 that all the drivers and crossovers are installed in Colorado (just before shipping).
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post #44 of 49 Old 03-16-2009, 09:04 AM
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Thanks, mjbuoni.
Yes, extremely happy with the PSAudio gear. The addition of the power regeneration and the soloist really made a difference.
On the LS6s, yes, we only make the enclosures, of course in my personal case, we load them here, but normally they are loaded in Colorado.
Santiago
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post #45 of 49 Old 03-25-2009, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I just upgraded my center channel speaker to a JTR Triple 12LF. So far, I'm very impressed with this combination. The JTR matches the LS6's in dynamics and detail, which is saying a lot! The timbre of the JTR is overall neutral sounding with a bit of extra mid/upper bass presence and maybe a little less in the low treble region, giving it a little more laid back sound. Movies sound ridiculously good with this combo. Explosions and other dynamic transients are just freakin' scary, as they should be!

As more time has passed, I've decided that the LS6's have a slight brightness to their sound in my room with my amp, so I've toned down the treble 2 dB and that really sounds just right. Also, maybe it's amp burn-in, speaker burn-in or my ear burn-in, but I've really noticed that the sound is more open and detailed even at lower volumes where I felt it was lacking before. Bottom line - I'm VERY satisfied with this system.

Here's a couple of pictures of the new center channel. It weighs around 125 lb. and just happens to fit perfectly into my entertainment center (40" wide x 16.5" tall) just above the amps.

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post #46 of 49 Old 03-25-2009, 04:31 PM
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Very Very Nice Matt.....

That triple is a monster...

Talk with EJ at Wyred4Sound, they pretty much worked hand in hand with PSAudio.... He may have some great incite as to what you are after....

Better DAC's are what your looking for over what the Onkyo is lacking, the nice thing is that Onkyo offers a HT bypass which will allow you to implement a different 2 channel source to bypass the Onkyo...

I am not very well versed in this dept... Are you still thinking about a Wyred amp for all this setup? I really have found my 7 channel amp to be spectacular in build quality and offers excellent performance... they may be somewhat expensive, but I think they are worth the extra $$ in the long run...

Patrick
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post #47 of 49 Old 03-25-2009, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Very Very Nice Matt.....

That triple is a monster...

Talk with EJ at Wyred4Sound, they pretty much worked hand in hand with PSAudio.... He may have some great incite as to what you are after....

Better DAC's are what your looking for over what the Onkyo is lacking, the nice thing is that Onkyo offers a HT bypass which will allow you to implement a different 2 channel source to bypass the Onkyo...

I am not very well versed in this dept... Are you still thinking about a Wyred amp for all this setup? I really have found my 7 channel amp to be spectacular in build quality and offers excellent performance... they may be somewhat expensive, but I think they are worth the extra $$ in the long run...

Patrick

Hi Patrick - thanks for the kind words . I do plan on upgrading various electronics (DAC, preamp, amp), and will likely go with a 3-channel Wyred amp. But that won't be happening for a little while. We're moving to Columbus, OH in late May as I've recently accepted a job there. So money must be saved for a while. I'm so stoked! - I'm planning on having a dedicated theater room that I will treat properly and won't have to put up baby gates everywhere....And I will be within reasonable driving distance for your next GTG!

Matt
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post #48 of 49 Old 03-28-2009, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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As I've been getting to know my new center channel speaker, I observed a pretty noticeable resonance on certain female vocals and even some voices in movie soundtracks. To try to get to the source of this, I did A/B comparisons with my LS6's and not a hint of these resonances. This made me suspect that it was an enclosure resonance and not a room interaction. To check this, I moved the JTR out to the center of the room elevated about 2-3 feet and aimed into the kitchen/dining area. While I don't mean to suggest that this would remove the room interaction factor completely, I would expect a much reduced resonance if it were only a room interaction. What I heard wasn't different enough to convince me.

So being the curious guy that I am, I decided to open up the speaker and check out the cabinet construction and damping. The cabinet was overall constructed very well, although there was an approximately 1/16" gap between the cabinet bracing and the enclosure wall on one end of both braces. This seemed to be the result of not cutting the braces square. Second, the main enclosure walls were only damped with a single piece of foam directly behind each woofer - a little sparse IMO. The midrange sub-enclosure was sealed and damped with a layer of fiberglass along the sides.

The DIYer in me decided to experiment with adding extra cabinet damping. I started by putting a thin layer of Acousta-Stuf down along the back wall of the midrange sub-enclosure. Then I lined the walls of the main enclosure directly behind the woofers with about 2". Putting it all back together, I played the same tracks on which I had previously noticed the resonances. Not a hint of it was there! The extra helping of mid/upper bass that I had previously noticed was reduced as well....Overall, I'd say this was a very worthwhile experiment.





Sorry, forgot to take a picture after I finished lining the enclosure.
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post #49 of 49 Old 03-28-2009, 03:59 PM
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Nice work on fixing the issue you had with the JTR.... Thats cool...

I used similar foam to line entirely all my sub enclosures. Very happy things are coming together, as are things here. Sometimes it just takes time to iron out all the wrinkles.

Glad you are moving closer, so I may possibly get a chance to listen to the LS6's.

I hope the move and transition goes smoothly for you buddy...
Keep us posted here...
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