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post #91 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Big L View Post

No, 110 dB is bad if you want to continue to hear things.


Sorry, you maybe should read a little more.
First, it depends how dynamic a song/movie is. I have songs that have peaks that are almost 30 db! To listen to that without any distortion one needs a VERY good system. Let's say I want the average lisninglevel at 80 dB, 10 feet away from the speakers. So let's calculate: Around 10 dB because of the distance, 30 dB for the peak + 80dB at average level = 120 dB. And many times I want higher, say 95-100 dB.

Secondly, it depends on the sound! Compressed and distorted sound with a lot of energy at high levels will be worse. Dynamic and clean sound with most of its energy in the bass, will be really good.

I have played average 110 dB at listeningposition with good songs and that it something that are superb if the system can do it.

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post #92 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

I know what you're saying, but just for clarity, 100dB is 100dB, regardless if it "sounds loud" or not.


Play a distorted 10 000 hz at 100 dB in a bad room and then compare that to a non distorted 30 hz tone in a good room an get back to me.

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post #93 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

I have played average 110 dB at listeningposition with good songs and that it something that are superb if the system can do it.

110 dB average huh?
Well, just make sure you can afford to buy nicer and nicer equipment.
'Cause you're going to have to crank the volume higher and higher, over time, to make up for your hearing loss.

Oh that's right, that's not important to this topic...

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post #94 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Big L View Post

110 dB average huh?
Well, just make sure you can afford to buy nicer and nicer equipment.
'Cause you're going to have to crank the volume higher and higher, over time, to make up for your hearing loss.

Oh that's right, that's not important to this topic...

I bet I will be the only one who is not deaf in the future, I learned my lesson when I went to a rap concert, stood near the subwoofers, my left ear was feeling stuffy for three days and there was some ringing.

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post #95 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Very true but some speakers sound like crap @ 100dB and some sound flawless. Its easier to listen to 100dB peaks from those speakers that do it well then too distortion ringing across the room.

Give a person 30 minutes with distorted speakers @ 100dB and they will beg for it all to stop. Give a person 30 minutes with un-distorted speakers @ 100dB and they will wonder what happened to the time because it was pure joy.

30 minutes @ 100dB once in a blue moon will not make ANYONE go deaf so can we just leave the 100dB will make you go deaf BS at home.

I don't care what volume anyone listens at. That's their problem.

My only point was I don't believe it matters from a hearing damage perspective whether or not the 100dB (or what ever) sounds good or sounds like crap. It's still 100dB.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #96 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Play a distorted 10 000 hz at 100 dB in a bad room and then compare that to a non distorted 30 hz tone in a good room an get back to me.

So what?

I don't listen to single frequency tones as a general rule. I listen to movies and music, and stand by my general statement.

Seemed to me people were saying 100dB isn't loud as long as it's reproduced clean. And, I agree from a certain perspective. It doesn't sound that loud, yet it is that loud.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #97 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 11:46 AM
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100 db's is very loud, but not uncomfortable with speakers than can reproduce cleanly. I listen at reference levels all the time and no one ever said to turn it down. My system handles reference levels with no problems. Peaks once in a while at 105 db's will not cause hearing damage. I have gone to concerts that are much louder than what I play my theater and my hearing is still ok. The concert was a constant 110+ db's. If you listen lower that is fine, your choice, dolby labs and THX play their movies with peaks at 105 db's(highs and mids) and 115+ db's for the bass and that is what I do. Not dangerous at all.

JUst check out my sig, it can cause hearing damage, but not at the levels I set it at.

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post #98 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

I don't care what volume anyone listens at. That's their problem.

My only point was I don't believe it matters from a hearing damage perspective whether or not the 100dB (or what ever) sounds good or sounds like crap. It's still 100dB.

thats cool, I think everyone agrees with you.

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post #99 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 12:53 PM
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I would really like to see some proof that a sound at say 40hz, 100 dB is as damaging as 10Khz @ 100dB. Maybe the affect on our ears is the same, but intuitively, they feel very different.
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post #100 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrager View Post

I would really like to see some proof that a sound at say 40hz, 100 dB is as damaging as 10Khz @ 100dB. Maybe the affect on our ears is the same, but intuitively, they feel very different.

There are plenty of papers/sites out there regarding hearing loss and decibel levels. Just Google for it. I think this topic (hearing loss) has been beaten to death. If you want to play well into 100db-120db range you are going to need efficient speakers or you are going to need a good receiver/amp to drive less efficient speakers. If you are less concerned about playing into the 100-120db range you are probably just fine with less efficient speakers. Just do your homework
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post #101 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:00 PM
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I think this topic (hearing loss) has been beaten to deaf

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post #102 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

... or you are going to need a good receiver/amp to drive less efficient speakers.

Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.
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post #103 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.

Don't forget in-room vs anechoic sensitivity. Also, reference is 105dB peaks per channel, not 120db......115dB for the LFE channel.

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post #104 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.

Some speakers simply won't reach high SPL, no matter how much power you put behind them. Eventually the cone rips out.

That's why pro level speakers are rated at max. SPL.

Most boutique speakers, are meant to be played at moderate volumes.
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post #105 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

Unfortunately less efficient speaker never get to 120db. You'd need over a 1KW of power to get 120db peaks out of a typical 87db/w/m speaker @ 1meter or 2kw at 2 meter or 4KW at 3 meters. When you factor in power compression and typical listen distances it becomes silly amounts of power - even considering you have two speakers and room gain.

You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.

Yes, I should have qualified. If you want to approach 120db with any authority or for sustained periods, you would definitely want to consider horn loaded speakers such as Klipsch. Some of them are rated at 100db. But getting 105-112db on a less efficient 89db speaker is not that difficult with a good amp when you factor in room dynamics and multiple speakers (5-7). Emotiva makes very affordable amps that can drive 500 watts RMS for 89db speakers. But if you are really into listening to music/movies that peak well above 105, I agree speaker sensitivity should be a priority and anything under 95db is probably not going to be what you need, especially with a large room and even then you are going to need some dedicated amps that can drive some serious power to get to 120db cleanly and sustained. And at that point you should also be considering double drywall/green glue/ wall decoupling and lots of acoustical treatments
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post #106 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:24 PM
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You really need sensitivity in the 96/db/w/m range at a minimum.

Right! I just re-built my mid/tweeter box for my HT....they are 96/db/w/m...

speaker porn......



The bass bin is being rebuilt, the original is here but I have to match my knew speaker designs....curved MDF and pretty baffles.



They have 96dB sensitivity and they only go to 60Hz but they kick ass!!!......My subs do the rest of the room.


Next build will by 96dB waveguide designs.

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post #107 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:31 PM
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Very cool penngray. The DYI stuff is pretty intriguing. One day when I have more time and the kids are older
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post #108 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Very cool penngray. The DYI stuff is pretty intriguing. One day when I have more time and the kids are older

I hear that! Two girls (2 1/2 year old and a 6 week old)....

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post #109 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 03:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MLKstudios View Post

I don't think anyone here is saying they listen to 100dB (or 80dB or 90dB) constantly. You would have to be listening to pink noise.

But, having speakers that can handle those "occasional" peaks over 100dB without distortion is the key to good dynamics. They allow you to listen at a higher level without fatigue.

My JBL's sound good loud, and really good really loud. I love to crank it on the opening trumpets and when the THX trailer does its thing. While watching I keep my finger on the volume due to the neighbors.

I used to do that or use it artistically when a friend would pop over, oh this would be many years ago many before this site was even around.

Today I just rehearse the film/DVD or in some rare ones (laserdisc dts) and then leave the volume where it is not too loud or uncomfortable in the mid range to high.

I remember someone pointing out on Lansing Heritage site early this year, there is few high frequencies that might be too much to bare I forget which? I’d have to look though the posts and find the thread unless somewhere knows which frequency that is?

Certain lows sine wave really tax my ears and I’m sure it would bug the hell of out most others, when played at cretin SPL db level.

I’ve been looking into the dynamic EQ on the DCX2496 to find simple and yet easy level to control the flow of LCR where C tends to have different mix level, yet when L/R is too high its smears over C making it rather distant sounding.

Made a few good attempts last night with Star Wars IV [chough, chough!] during the opening there’s a nice drum beat in the centre and few other musical instruments playing if anyone cared to notice.

Generally I think as most of us get older we start to listen at lower level or safer level. Years many so moons ago, I’d be close to 100db on the control 5 and that is just TOO LOUD! The light-bulb fuse protection circuit would light up and my friends thought it looked trendy. LOL


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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Yes, I should have qualified. If you want to approach 120db with any authority or for sustained periods, you would definitely want to consider horn loaded speakers such as Klipsch. Some of them are rated at 100db. But getting 105-112db on a less efficient 89db speaker is not that difficult with a good amp when you factor in room dynamics and multiple speakers (5-7). Emotiva makes very affordable amps that can drive 500 watts RMS for 89db speakers. But if you are really into listening to music/movies that peak well above 105, I agree speaker sensitivity should be a priority and anything under 95db is probably not going to be what you need, especially with a large room and even then you are going to need some dedicated amps that can drive some serious power to get to 120db cleanly and sustained. And at that point you should also be considering double drywall/green glue/ wall decoupling and lots of acoustical treatments

Well there is that crown SPL db calculator that does the trick quite well in determining the power needs VS desired listening level and distance from source the high the SPL and father away the more and more difficult it becomes, but not impossible just awkward if you don’t happen to have the speakers or amps.
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post #110 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Big L View Post

110 dB average huh?
Well, just make sure you can afford to buy nicer and nicer equipment.
'Cause you're going to have to crank the volume higher and higher, over time, to make up for your hearing loss.

Oh that's right, that's not important to this topic...


Your wrong. It also depends on the time and what freqency most of the energy is in. But you are maybe a person that cannot afford good equipment that can do this.

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
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post #111 of 173 Old 05-14-2009, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

So what?

I don't listen to single frequency tones as a general rule. I listen to movies and music, and stand by my general statement.

Seemed to me people were saying 100dB isn't loud as long as it's reproduced clean. And, I agree from a certain perspective. It doesn't sound that loud, yet it is that loud.


Please, understand that different freqvencys and distortion/compressed will make a big difference. I promise you, a good Infected mushroom tune at 100 dB is much easier to listen to than a distorted Ministry record.

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post #112 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 08:46 AM
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10-20dB peaks is pretty normal.

I have quite a number of stuff which are over 30dB.....music not HT (read from my RTA which is always on) If you don't mind trying something just for testing the system, the Danley firework clip would an interesting way to start. If you have a good/fast meter like the pros do which can capture the transients properly, you may find that 120dB in live performances from percussive musical instruments up close as in a couple of metres away & unamplified is very very common.

I guess it depends on your fav genres ultimately....though I like "compressed" trance too.
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post #113 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Right! I just re-built my mid/tweeter box for my HT....they are 96/db/w/m...

They have 96dB sensitivity and they only go to 60Hz but they kick ass!!!......My subs do the rest of the room.

Hey those look amazing! The curved wall gives it a decidedly non DIY look and I'm sure it helps with standing waves.

I have to put a finish on my horns this summer and I'd really like to use some nice wood veneer but it'll be all but imposable given their shape/design.

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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Don't forget in-room vs anechoic sensitivity. Also, reference is 105dB peaks per channel, not 120db......115dB for the LFE channel.

I thought I mention room gain in my post I didn't put a number on it because it'll be different for every room. And we were talking about 100-120db reproduction, not THX reference levels.

The point was to simply illustrate that you can't really interchange speaker sensitivity for amplifier power. As MLKstudios pointed out there comes a time when small speakers will just self destruct when you exceed their capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

Yes, I should have qualified. If you want to approach 120db with any authority or for sustained periods, you would definitely want to consider horn loaded speakers such as Klipsch. Some of them are rated at 100db. But getting 105-112db on a less efficient 89db speaker is not that difficult with a good amp when you factor in room dynamics and multiple speakers (5-7). Emotiva makes very affordable amps that can drive 500 watts RMS for 89db speakers. But if you are really into listening to music/movies that peak well above 105, I agree speaker sensitivity should be a priority and anything under 95db is probably not going to be what you need, especially with a large room and even then you are going to need some dedicated amps that can drive some serious power to get to 120db cleanly and sustained. And at that point you should also be considering double drywall/green glue/ wall decoupling and lots of acoustical treatments

Yes if you're willing to pump your music through all speaks for a party or something then that will help for sure. No to many speakers will handle 500 watts without major power compression and huge distortion though.

And while 95-96 db/w/m speaker will require a robust dedicated amp a really high efficiency design still only needs a small amp to do 120db.

The mid horn's I use require 1 watt to do 115db and the bullet tweeter will do 112db with 1 watt. The midbass horns are anywhere from 100-110db/w/m depending on room gain. The sub is rated at anywhere from 95db/w/m to 105db/w/m depending on room gain. At most all that I use is a few watts on all but the sub when playing at rock concert levels in my small room. Anyway something like Pen's system or a set of JTR's and a big amp is really a better solution for most. Speaker sensitivity over 100db/w/m isn't really need in a home setting. I just fell in love with the sound of that Altec 288 compression driver. Anyway I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just think the topic is interesting.

I also agree with what you mentioned earlier that speaker sensitivity doesn't equal great sound quality. Five seconds in Guitar center will tell you that .

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But you are maybe a person that cannot afford good equipment that can do this.

No need to be rude.
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post #114 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

The point was to simply illustrate that you can't really interchange speaker sensitivity for amplifier power. As MLKstudios pointed out there comes a time when small speakers will just self destruct when you exceed their capabilities.

Got it....in total agreement.

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post #115 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Your wrong. It also depends on the time and what freqency most of the energy is in. But you are maybe a person that cannot afford good equipment that can do this.

Wow. There is no need to be rude.

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post #116 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by steve71 View Post

As MLKstudios pointed out there comes a time when small speakers will just self destruct when you exceed their capabilities.

Or tweeters on even big, expensive audiophile speakers. I like the Soundstage distorition measurements, but even those are never conducted at more than 95dB/2m (101dB/1m equivalent). I have never seen pro speaker distortion measurements at more than 102dB/1m; and those tend to be from the manufacturers, rather than independent publications.

However, going with high-efficiency speakers might have its own problems. My understanding is that compression drivers introduce distortion. I wonder if even a waveguide can be at least slightly distortive in some way. I'm no expert on these issues.
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post #117 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by syswei View Post

Or tweeters on even big, expensive audiophile speakers. I like the Soundstage distorition measurements, but even those are never conducted at more than 95dB/2m (101dB/1m equivalent). I have never seen pro speaker distortion measurements at more than 102dB/1m; and those tend to be from the manufacturers, rather than independent publications.

However, going with high-efficiency speakers might have its own problems. My understanding is that compression drivers introduce distortion. I wonder if even a waveguide can be at least slightly distortive in some way. I'm no expert on these issues.

Good points. I know when I was researching my speakers (SVS SCS-01) I did find a review of the SBS speakers (which are a step down from the SCS-01) and "Secrets" measured them at:
Quote:


The tweeter gave less than 0.5% THD at 10 kHz and 100 dB

Which, for me, is more than adequate since I rarely go above 100db even for peaks. I watched "Taken" on Blu-Ray last night and the highest measurement I took was around 92db for peaks (fun movie too). Dialogue was running in the mid 60's and my receiver was set to "63". DTS-HD-MA tends to sound a few db louder than Dolby TrueHD and DD, and definitely louder than PCM.

It would be interesting to see the THD levels with my speakers at 105-110db range.

I just recently started reading up on waveguides and it is fascinating stuff.
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post #118 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 10:29 AM
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This thread has been mostly about movies, but for me, music is important.

I posted this in another thread:

The following calculator is useful:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

IMO, for music, one thing that distinguishes "live" sound is *loud* PEAKS (I am distinguishing short-term peaks from continuous 115dB or whatever, which would be harmful to your ears). For instance, this is from the Musical Fidelity site:

How loud should musical peaks be?

Several years ago, John Atkinson, editor of Stereophile, measured,
from a normal audience position, the peak level produced by a small
symphony orchestra in a concert hall. He measured peaks of 109dB to
110dB. One of the top recording engineers in the world, Tony
Faulkner, regularly measures 113dB to 116dB peaks from large
symphony orchestras. Rock music is even louder. Please understand
that these levels are on musical peaks, and not average continuous
levels.

If a hi-fi system is to be realistic, it should be able to achieve
realistic peak levels at a normal listening position.
.
.
.
it is beyond dispute that the smaller amplifier will be
incapable of ever, under any circumstances, producing a significant
dynamic attack. In our opinion, dynamic attack is vital to the
realistic reproduction of music.


Also, Check page 2 of the following:
http://www.baua.de/nn_53260/en/Topic...nd-2007-03.pdf
I read the graph at the bottom of the page to indicate that measured 25 meters from the front of the stage, the QUIETEST of 70+ measured concerts had peak SPL of about 108dB. The AVERAGE concert had peak SPL of perhaps (eyeballing it) 117dB. Not clear what type(s) of concerts were involved.
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post #119 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 10:36 AM
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However, going with high-efficiency speakers might have its own problems. My understanding is that compression drivers introduce distortion. I wonder if even a waveguide can be at least slightly distortive in some way. I'm no expert on these issues.

According to Geddes and other experts, Waveguides/compression drivers are designed to have less distortion period and they are also designed to have incredible directivity. When setup properly they will create a SQ that no dome can compete with.....its pure undistorted sound. Surprisingly lots of people are not use to that sort of sound. People like distortion, reflecting (Shimmering) around the room.




Quote:
I just recently started reading up on waveguides and it is fascinating stuff.

Cool

Did you read these thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...hreadid=103872 yet?

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #120 of 173 Old 05-15-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post


Did you read these thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...hreadid=103872 yet?

No, but I will...

Thanks penngray. BTW, I am originally from Florida and attended UF before moving all over the country. Enjoy the sunshine and oranges
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