100 dB or higher on a bright speaker vs. a warm speaker - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Will 100 dB or higher sound less "painful" on a warm speaker vs. a bright speaker?
Kain is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 04:07 AM
Advanced Member
 
DogEarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 512
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
That depends entirely on your ears. Some speakers are painful even at low volumes!
DogEarz is offline  
post #3 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Which speakers do you find painful even at low volumes?
Kain is offline  
post #4 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 04:33 AM
3db
Advanced Member
 
3db's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 18
No offense but thats like asking..what woudl hurt more, getting run over my a half ton or a hummer? A 100db is painfully loud and will cause permanent hearing loss. No thanks. I'll keep my HT in the mid to high 80s with the occasional peak to the low 90s when I want to listen to something very loud.
3db is offline  
post #5 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 04:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
NIN74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Skoghall, va, Sweden
Posts: 3,568
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Why not do 100 dB on a neutral speaker?

Sound and video is not magic, it is pure physics. Physics that can be magical
NIN74 is offline  
post #6 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

Why not do 100 dB on a neutral speaker?

Okay, even if you include a neutral speaker into the mix, the question still stands.

By the way, which speakers do you consider to be neutral?
Kain is offline  
post #7 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 05:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Zues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,835
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
There is a difference between bright and harsh. Don't confuse high resolution speakers with being too bright or too harsh. Harsh=distortion. Bright to most people probably=tweeter running too hot. Eq can make a bright sounding speaker sound better. But you can't make a warm-neutral speaker have detail-high resolution. The best speakers will seem bright imo. But it's just because they are high resolution and many recordings will sound like crap on them because they are crap recordings. If you want to be blown away high resolution speakers is where it's at. Not warm-neutral.
Zues is offline  
post #8 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 07:20 AM
Advanced Member
 
DL86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 537
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
100db should sound less painful on the warmer speaker. 100db is ok... so it prob wont make too much difference, also depends what kind of music your into, the bright speaker may sound louder at lower volumes than a warm speaker at higher volumes. I listen to my paradigm studio 100v3's often at levels over 100db and it seems fine apart from having to send a tweeter for repair but thats another story. Standing next to a high power PA speaker blaring at over 120 db hmmm thats painful.

To improve the black level performance of your projector: Shine bright light into your eyes every 5 minutes.
DL86 is offline  
post #9 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 07:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

No offense but thats like asking..what woudl hurt more, getting run over my a half ton or a hummer? A 100db is painfully loud and will cause permanent hearing loss. No thanks. I'll keep my HT in the mid to high 80s with the occasional peak to the low 90s when I want to listen to something very loud.

I agree here. It is one thing to peak in the 100db range occasionally but listening to music or movies at 100db constant level will result in permanent hearing loss.
ack_bk is offline  
post #10 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 07:46 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

No offense but thats like asking..what woudl hurt more, getting run over my a half ton or a hummer? A 100db is painfully loud and will cause permanent hearing loss. No thanks. I'll keep my HT in the mid to high 80s with the occasional peak to the low 90s when I want to listen to something very loud.

I do not think anyone is asking what speakers play 100dBs 24/7

What I have learned recently is that high SPL needs low distortion and you can not get that with average comercial speakers.

100dB - 115dBs distortion free is not fatiguing, 100dB-110dB peaks with distortion is fatiguing. Heck, we havent even touched on the fact that LF can be 120dB!!!

Few people here have heard higher SPL, lower distortion speakers. Its just a different world. Distortion can ring throughout a room and most here would think its the shimmer of the dome Most people also do not realize that the details they think they hear in their speakers during those high SPL peaks is actually full of distortion.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #11 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 07:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:


I agree here. It is one thing to peak in the 100db range occasionally but listening to music or movies at 100db constant level will result in permanent hearing loss.

You guys do not understand what 20dB peaks mean!! Its all about the peaks and not someone playing 100dB levels at all.

If you want 90dB at your listening position and you sit 12 feet away then you need +115dB at the speaker position (LF probably 120+)....um....distortion!!!!

Of course, most people just accept distortion as proper speaker sound Its something that few understand.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #12 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:01 AM
3db
Advanced Member
 
3db's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 743
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I do not think anyone is asking what speakers play 100dBs 24/7

What I have learned recently is that high SPL needs low distortion and you can not get that with average comercial speakers.

100dB - 115dBs distortion free is not fatiguing, 100dB-110dB peaks with distortion is fatiguing. Heck, we havent even touched on the fact that LF can be 120dB!!!

Few people here have heard higher SPL, lower distortion speakers. Its just a different world. Distortion can ring throughout a room and most here would think its the shimmer of the dome Most people also do not realize that the details they think they hear in their speakers during those high SPL peaks is actually full of distortion.

Fatiguing or not, its still loud and will cause damage. Whether it hurts or not is immaterial.
3db is offline  
post #13 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You guys do not understand what 20dB peaks mean!! Its all about the peaks and not someone playing 100dB levels at all.

If you want 90dB at your listening position and you sit 12 feet away then you need +115dB at the speaker position (LF probably 120+)....um....distortion!!!!

Of course, most people just accept distortion as proper speaker sound Its something that few understand.

I don't listen to movies at a constant 90db's though. During normal dialogue that would be well above shouting levels (normal dialogue happens in the 60db range). I have nothing against people wanting to watch their movies really loud, but I just don't find it enjoyable. When I watch a movie or TV show I prefer to have dialogue at normal volume levels. Like the person was in the room talking to me directly, not shouting at me.

But I understand your point for peaks. Perhaps I am hearing distortion and do not know it with my normal commercial grade speakers. And I have heard some very expensive speakers (at least by my standards, they were $15K a pair). They definitely blew away the speakers that I have now but they should. They cost About $14,700 more apiece.
ack_bk is offline  
post #14 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sound dropouts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 1,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Fatiguing or not, its still loud and will cause damage.

Not if listened to for only a few seconds. I believe it is something like 10 minutes at 120 dbs before damage occurs. This varies with frequency as well. Listening at 85 average and 105 peaks during a 2 hour movie will not cause permanent damage. Now, if listening to all the LOTR one after another at reference volume, you may incur damage.
sound dropouts is offline  
post #15 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 98
And as I stated in another thread speaker sensitivity is just one aspect to speaker design. There are speakers that are less sensitive but have flatter freq response and sound much better to me vs the more sensitive speaker. Maybe it is just me, but I prefer the sound of a more neutral speaker vs an overly sensitive and bright speaker. If that means I am hearing distortion during peak scenes (even for a second or two) then I guess that is a tradeoff I make for watching the majority of the movie which sounds much better to me with a neutral speaker Luckily there are speakers made for all types of tastes. The very sensitive speaker for those that like to play loud and big, and the more neutral speaker for those that want a more natural sound.
ack_bk is offline  
post #16 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:25 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Fatiguing or not, its still loud and will cause damage. Whether it hurts or not is immaterial.

Again, you keep thinking we are listening past 90dB levels 12 feet back.

Do you realize to even have 85dB levels once in awhile still requirese VERY HIGH SPLs levels @ 1m? Do you also know the distortion curves for most speakers at those levels?

This is the single biggest issue that I think people miss day after day in any audio forum. Well 2nd biggest one outside of wasting $$$ on things that do not improve sound

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #17 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:


There are speakers that are less sensitive but have flatter freq response and sound much better to me vs the more sensitive speaker. Maybe it is just me, but I prefer the sound of a more neutral speaker vs an overly sensitive and bright speaker.

You do realize that a speaker with flat FR plot is defined as bright speaker Of course sensitivity isnt the end all for speakers, there are crap speakers with high sensitivity but you do not seen professional install putting in sub 90dB speakers in custom HT rooms. Ask some of the experts on here that install in HT room what they would use!!

The problem with everyone going just off FR plots is that its only a fraction of the speaker story. Power Response, Harmonic Distortion curves are extremely important and seldom looked at by anyone just listening to speakers in a demo. Most people demo improperly too but that is a new topic.

I would actually love to never see a simple FR plot again, instead companies should use THD plots since those include the FR and also the distortion measurements. Then Polar response charts would show how bad some speakers are

People listening at under 75dB 100% of the time need not read anything here...any old speaker will do just fine in that world

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #18 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 08:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Penngray,

You also have to take into account that when someone's speaker is rated at 87dbs in an anechoic chamber that is not taking into account actual room dynamics and and using multiple speakers vs just one. Using some basic calculators I have found a 87db rated speaker from 12ft away (assuming the speakers are within 4ft of a wall, which mine are) my 90watt per channel receiver (RMS) should be able to deliver up to 105.3dbs at peak. I would say this is probably close to accurate in my own space when I have cranked my receiver up to above normal listening levels. Even if I listened to dialogue at much higher levels than normal (lets say 80db vs 60-65) that should still give my 90w receiver to handle a 20db range peak (this would put it around 100db). But as you mentioned, I may be reaching distortion levels at that point depending upon my speakers, receiver, room, and knowledge of what distortion sounds like at that level. Or am I missing something here?
ack_bk is offline  
post #19 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 09:07 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Not really missing anything, I do not know the distortion measurements of your speakers and you are listening a low volumes so all is good....just do not crank it up and think you are listening to clean/clear sound.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #20 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 09:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

People listening at under 75dB 100% of the time need not read anything here...any old speaker will do just fine in that world

That is not what I am saying. I am saying that I listen to normal dialogue in the 60-65db range typically. That does not account for peaks which could probably reach close to the 85-90db range when listening at normal dialogue levels. And there are some big differences between speakers that have the same sensitivity ratings at that 75db and lower range

I will take some SPL measurements tonight when I watch a movie (I have a couple of Blu-Ray's that I was planning on watching anyway) to see what I normally listen at and will try adjusting up by a good 5-10dbs from normal and will see where peaks are at. I will try and compare a heavy dialogue driven movie vs an action popcorn movie.

I do appreciate your comments. I think you raise some interesting points that I will definitely ponder and research more with regards to speaker design.

I just find it interesting that the majority of bookshelf speakers that I personally gravitate to tend to have a sensitivity rating of 87-89dbs, and those speakers that get highly rated by various users and professional review sites that fall in the $1K and under range (per pair). Examples of speakers that I have listened to very recently are:
- NHT Classic 3
- PSB Image 25
- SVS SCS-01
- Paradigm Mini Monitor
- KEF iq3
- Aperion Intimus 5B
- RBH MC-6C, 616C, RBH 61/SE-R

Speakers that I have not heard that get great reviews:
- Emotiva ERT/ERM series
- Ascend Sierras
- Ascend CBM-170
- Axiom M2, M3, and M22 speakers
- Aperion Intimus 4b and 6b
- Swan bookshelves
- Dynaudio
, etc, etc,

None of the above speakers are rated above 89db's.

As for HT custom installers I can tell you for a fact that a well known company in the Salt Lake area pushes many RBH spekers that are rated 89dbs. And custom installers are not (from what I have seen) going to push internet direct company speakers.
ack_bk is offline  
post #21 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 09:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
As crazy as Penn is, he is right. 100 db's is not loud with proper room and equipment. It takes more power than people think to play loud from the LP. I watch at reference levels all the time and never get fatigued, the system just coasts along at 100 db's.
MKtheater is online now  
post #22 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 10:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ack_bk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 8,787
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

As crazy as Penn is, he is right. 100 db's is not loud with proper room and equipment. It takes more power than people think to play loud from the LP. I watch at reference levels all the time and never get fatigued, the system just coasts along at 100 db's.

What? I can't hear you, can you speak a little louder?

Just kidding. Everytime I click your link in your sig I can't help but feel like

I would love to see the rest of your theater, do you have more pics posted?

And I agree listening position and room dynamics play a role. A smaller room and closer listening position can have a big effect on power and sensivitiy. Someone sitting 17' back in a 20x20 room with 10' ceilings vs someone in a 15x15' room sitting 10' back with 8' ceilings will have different power requirements.
ack_bk is offline  
post #23 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 10:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
steve71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Low efficiency speakers compress peaks in the signal due to heating of the voice coil. It's like having the dynamic range compression of your receiver turned on.

Good high efficiency speakers will sound much louder on loud passages. Ever notice how massive the sound is in a really good cinema?

And as for the OP questions - look up the Fletcher Munson curve.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves

With this in mind I'd say warm speakers will be more accurate at high volume.

I'm lucky enough to have a digital active crossover with a 28 band digital EQ so when I want to listen really loud (My mains will do around 110db with 1 watt) I can adjust the FR to take into account the Fletcher Munson curve.

I believe the new AV receivers are incorporating a dynamic loudness "button" which does a similar thing.
steve71 is offline  
post #24 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 10:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,163
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 394
Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

What? I can't hear you, can you speak a little louder?

Just kidding. Everytime I click your link in your sig I can't help but feel like

I would love to see the rest of your theater, do you have more pics posted?

And I agree listening position and room dynamics play a role. A smaller room and closer listening position can have a big effect on power and sensivitiy. Someone sitting 17' back in a 20x20 room with 10' ceilings vs someone in a 15x15' room sitting 10' back with 8' ceilings will have different power requirements.

Check out my thread, I just posted new pics.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...016979&page=20
MKtheater is online now  
post #25 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 11:42 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 29
"As crazy as Penn is...."


Lol, you have me beat by a mile!! You guys need to realize what MK has in his custom HT room




It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #26 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 12:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
steve71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Great stuff MK! A true wall of sound. To quote Cal from DIYAudio - "Only big sounds big"
steve71 is offline  
post #27 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 12:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MLKstudios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 1,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
MK has "a nice rack" too.
MLKstudios is offline  
post #28 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 01:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MLKstudios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hollywood, CA
Posts: 1,986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Floyd Toole's human testing found most people perfer a high end drop off.

The other often mentioned factor, is the room itself. Some rooms are "bright", so a flat speaker will sound bright in that room.

Also, no matter how flat the speaker is in an anechoic chamber, as soon as you take it out of the box and place it on a stand, or in a corner of the room, it is no longer a flat speaker until you EQ it properly.
MLKstudios is offline  
post #29 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 02:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Raymond Leggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
you do realise that that is close to the pain threshold of any sound don't you?

One shall stand... One Shall Fall... - Optimus Prime
Raymond Leggs is offline  
post #30 of 173 Old 05-12-2009, 02:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
simplemath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Soft dome tweeters for the smooth unfatigue factor. OW1.

My Linns use this tweeter also, it was the deciding factor for a pleasant top end. Wharfdale uses softs as well.
simplemath is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off