Why don't we use Pro Monitors in our Homes? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 513 Old 07-01-2009, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MLKstudios View Post

A question for Sean:

Harman Int. has three speaker companies with different sounds -- Revel, Infinity and JBL (which sells speakers at many, many different levels).

My question is, with the data and research that you and Dr. Toole have compiled under the Harman umbrella, do you think that in the future, the design goals of all three manufacturers will approach identical sounding speakers?

In short, if there is an ideal model of what a speaker "should sound like", doesn't that imply that in time, they will all achieve the same goal?

TIA

I'd like to add a thought to that, similar to a post I had earlier. If a speaker company builds what they think is the finest speaker possible, at that point in time, and lets say for the sake of argument, its the JBL DD66000. That speaker, as we currently know it, has a price tag of $30K/ea. That's a price few people can afford.
And then JBL uses that model as a base and designs two or three other models, for people looking for speakers at lower more affordable price points.

Those lower priced speakers will have some of the design points of the DD66000, but certainly not all. As such those 2, 3 speaker designs can't possibly have the same sonic signature as the DD66000.
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post #272 of 513 Old 07-01-2009, 10:05 PM
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Sean,
It is interesting that you say that low THD is not necessarily preferred in loud speaker listening tests. This agrees with what I found many years ago when I was involved in loudspeaker feedback / correction projects. The basic problem was that we could correct for the motor and compliance non-linearity's, certainly all those within the pistonic limit of the driver, BUT even when the distortion was corrected to very low levels (below 0.5%) there was a strong "blind test" preference for the uncorrected speakers. We thought it was due to the increased IM distortion resulting from the band-limited correction.
We focused for a long time on extending the correction mechanisms to include regions of cone break-up and thereby to eliminate the IM distortion but even with this, people still usually preferred "uncorrected".

Ok none of this should come as news to anyone that has worked in the field, however what is interesting is that I have recently resurrected some of the algorithms / methods that we used many years ago and applied them individually to arrays of small speakers (2 and 3 in cones) each individually controlled and amp'ed and delayed, with this arrangement there was a strong preference (in very limited tests) for the corrected speaker. The delays to the array were controlled to create a wide band sound field and the speakers were mounted on a curved surface so that the off axis response was also controlled.

Regards
Robert
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post #273 of 513 Old 07-01-2009, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by chipamp View Post

Ok none of this should come as news to anyone that has worked in the field, however what is interesting is that I have recently resurrected some of the algorithms / methods that we used many years ago and applied them individually to arrays of small speakers (2 and 3 in cones) each individually controlled and amp'ed and delayed, with this arrangement there was a strong preference (in very limited tests) for the corrected speaker. The delays to the array were controlled to create a wide band sound field and the speakers were mounted on a curved surface so that the off axis response was also controlled.

Regards
Robert


I know next to nothing about such things but what you're saying sounds very interesting. I would like to hear more about your research.

In over my head.
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post #274 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 01:11 AM
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Sivadselim,
I have never witnessed a person make such pointless arguments, while contradicting themselves in all my time on AVS. Wouldn't it make sense to learn about the things you're arguing(don't say you're not arguing, because that makes you look even more ridiculous) about, before stating your claims as facts? I've learned a ton from this thread(yes I've read all 10 pages) and I'm thankful that there are plenty of educated individuals on this forum. If someone took your posts on this thread seriously, they'd be the least informed audio enthusiast on AVS, but there doesn't seem to be anyone that gullible, thank god! I'm still laughing at the fact that you've continually said, "accurate(whatever that means/is)" ha haa haaa! Well if you're married, you must have one of the most understanding wives in the world. Hope you learn one day, although it seems unlikely.

Back to the topic at hand. I think that any GOOD studio monitor, should be great for in-home use. Like Soundood said, companies like Danley and Seaton Sound are providing products for the home that are much closer to studio monitor style, than consumer style with fantastic results. My mind is only focused on that style of thinking now. Pro gear, or products close to it like Seaton's stuff, are the only products I'm considering for my future audio needs throughout my home. Accuracy is my priority. Meyer Sound is high on my list too

David Budo
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post #275 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 04:21 AM
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Mikeronesia,
I'm not so sure that you will be interested because I don't work on Audiophile systems, I'm focused on something you'll find in a typical Home Hi-Fi or TV set.

But since you asked:

The idea is simple, basically today you can get a 10W amplifier for about $0.50. if you add 10 band parametric eq to each speaker along with a suitable DAC than the total cost per node caps including filter components of under $1.00. 10 of these about equals the SPL that 100W system could create without the crossovers and big drivers. (think thin for LCDTV's) Now the question is once you have this array of active nodes, Can you do anything smart in the way that portions of the audio band are allocate to each of the speakers? (think dynamically variable active crossovers in the digital domain). (BTW each of the parametric Eq's attached to each speaker can be dynamically changed / reprogrammed on the fly)
Since each speaker has the amp attached I can more easily close the feedback loop around the speaker (helps that small diameter speakers typically work pistonicly for most of the voice band spectrum) Also since I'm using an array of speakers I can avoid the worst IM problems by separating out the primary signals and sending them to different drivers.

If you can get over any Audiophile prejudices you may have, than I think you'd be amazed at what is possible with very cheap components and a lot of signal processing / know how. These new 10W class D amps have distortion floors below 0.01% and even the cheap multibit DACs have noise floors 20dB below this.

regards
Chipamp.
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post #276 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Sivadselim,
...I'm still laughing at the fact that you've continually said, "accurate(whatever that means/is)" ha haa haaa! Well if you're married, you must have one of the most understanding wives in the world. Hope you learn one day, although it seems unlikely...

I have an understanding wife, too. While she clearly THINKS that I'm inaccurate, she has no test instruments to PROVE it.
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post #277 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by markwriter View Post

The paper you quoted that said:
"Listeners, it seems, like the sound of loudspeakers with a flat, smooth wideband on-axis amplitude response that is maintained at substantial angles off axis."

Is that what defines a speaker's accuracy? Or one parameter that defines a speaker's accuracy? Honestly, I don't know. But even if we allow that it does indicate or is indicative of a speaker's accuracy, that doesn't mean that the speaker's accuracy is what listeners find preferable. Maybe that sort of broad parameter (and others) is simply representative of other less broad characteristics of the speaker that are really contributing to listeners' preferences. And that a speaker that has a "a flat, smooth wideband on-axis amplitude response that is maintained at substantial angles off axis" is one in which other contributing design factors were well-executed.


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Flat FR, on and off axis. Is there some way a speaker that has these characteristics could be described as inaccurate?

Again, I honestly don't know. But I think you CAN have a speaker that has a flat FR on and off axis that "sounds bad" to listeners.


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Originally Posted by markwriter View Post

The papers also use words like "accurate", "faithfulness", "neutrality" and "fidelity". Toole talks about people preferring speakers that don't "editorialize". I don't know how much clearer they could be.

I didn't 'search' on the words "faithfulness", "neutrality", and "fidelity", but when I searched on the words "accurate", "accuracy", and "accurately", they appeared very infrequently as descriptors of sound quality. More often than not they were used to describe the measurements or instrumentation. Of course, that doesn't really mean anything.


I'm not trying to be a jerk, here. I have no issue at all with the science being pursued and performed or the goals. But as a scientist myself, I am accustomed to spirited debate, criticism, and healthy skepticism. I expect it. Want it. Prefer it, even. That's how science works. Even though my field is far removed from this subject matter, I have written scientific papers, reviewed many, and read many, many more. So, forgive my mindset.

I am not convinced that we can accurately () measure a speaker's accuracy, much less listen for it. We have all heard (albeit subjectively) a speaker that can seemingly reproduce particular instruments with different degrees of accuracy than others. I think we all observe this when we audition speakers with material we are familiar with. We all have that favorite piano track. Or female voice track. Acoustic guitar track. Trumpet. Vibraphone. Etc.. When you listen to a complex multitracked and manipulated studio recording, what do you listen for to assess accuracy? And is that really what you are assessing when you are listening? Even with the worst of speakers you can recognize and distinguish between the sounds of the different instruments. Hell, even with a clock radio I can tell a saxophone from a clarinet.

I would think that there are more complex ways to measure complicated characteristics and parameters of particular sounds in a very controlled environment and then show how accurately a speaker can reproduce that particular sound using the same measuring techniques. Certainly this has been attempted. I would assume that by such analysis it could be demonstrated that any one speaker can more accurately reproduce certain sounds over others. Or maybe we can't fully measure what contributes to the complex timbre difference between, for example, a clarinet and a saxophone. I don't know. But if we can measure that accurately, then I would think we could measure the ability of a speaker to reproduce those sounds (and others) accurately. And perhaps that sort of accuracy DOES correlate with other simpler measurements like FR.


As someone pointed out a few threads up, Harman has more than one line of speakers. Why? And they each have a characteristic sound. Obviously there are things involved here that are much more subtle that can't be measured by simple measurements like FR. Does it really boil down to a few simple measurements? I don't buy that. There are subtleties in timbre that can't be measured with those simple measurements.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #278 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Otto Hemi View Post

Hmm. Their current top-rated bookshelf speaker is the Infinity P162. Made by Harman.

I guess this means they suck.

No, the Infinity P162 was the top-rated bookshelf because it's a really good speaker for its class, and Consumer Reports have modified their accuracy scores based, in part, on my paper that showed their test methods were seriously flawed ( see my blog posting about this here. My study found that correlation between their predicted accuracy scores of the loudspeakers and my measured listeners' preference ratings was r = -.22.)

They tell me that since 2006 their calculated accuracy scores are now based on a model that is more similar to the one I developed and describe here. As a result, Harman speakers are doing better in Consumer Reports, getting top rating in bookshelf and HTIB categories.

It's true that before 2006, getting a good speaker review in CR often meant that your speaker sucked. I used to turn the magazine upside down to get a more accurate reading of the true rank ordering of loudspeakers from best to worst. That is no longer true.

It's win for science, and a win for consumers.

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post #279 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLKstudios View Post

A question for Sean:

Harman Int. has three speaker companies with different sounds -- Revel, Infinity and JBL (which sells speakers at many, many different levels).

My question is, with the data and research that you and Dr. Toole have compiled under the Harman umbrella, do you think that in the future, the design goals of all three manufacturers will approach identical sounding speakers?

In short, if there is an ideal model of what a speaker "should sound like", doesn't that imply that in time, they will all achieve the same goal?

TIA

The goal for all three brands is to reproduce sound with as much "accuracy" as possible within given limitations of cost, industrial design, manufacturing -- even if sivadselim is not sure accuracy is what we are actually measuring

Today, I think loudspeakers in general sound more similar (and better) than they did 20 years ago because of improvements/ better accessibility to good measurement equipment, loudspeaker components, and advances in the science of understanding what makes a loudspeaker sound good.

The real advancements in the next 5-10 years will be in controlling acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker and listening room, gaining a better understanding and control of nonlinear distortion and the directivity of the loudspeaker.

Cheers,
Sean Olive
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post #280 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I'm not trying to be a jerk, here.

And yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I am not convinced that we can accurately () measure a speaker's accuracy, much less listen for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

I would think that there are more complex ways to measure complicated characteristics and parameters of particular sounds in a very controlled environment and then show how accurately a speaker can reproduce that particular sound using the same measuring techniques. Certainly this has been attempted. I would assume that by such analysis it could be demonstrated that any one speaker can more accurately reproduce certain sounds over others. But if we can measure that accurately, then I would think we could measure the ability of a speaker to reproduce those sounds (and others) accurately. And perhaps that sort of accuracy DOES correlate with other simpler measurements like FR.

FR may be simple to understand, but the full complete way in which the competent speaker companies measure it is far from simple. Maybe you haven't read these, which go into the objective measurement techniques used by Harman et al, which are more sophisticated techniques than what you're describing.

One other issue that you brought up is the differing branding and resultant sound of Harman products. They shoot for the same goals but yet the speakers don't all sound identical, so this supposedly proves something negative. I don't think it does. The speakers sound different from one another because of differing form factors and parts lists cause differing engineering tradeoffs. No mystery there. And the differing brands are the result of M&A's done over the years. Consumers like brands, and consumers of Harman products are no exception. That said, I bet that over the past 10 years there has been a convergence of sound so that speakers with a production (wholesale) cost of 'x' dollars made by of each of the Harman brands would rate similarly in blind testing. The good thing is that even their cheap plastic iPod speakers are measured accurately and perform with relatively high fidelity, to the point that they outperform units costing many multiples of their MSRP.
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post #281 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 06:57 PM
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.............so this supposedly proves something negative.

Not my point at all.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #282 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

The real advancements in the next 5-10 years will be in controlling acoustical interactions between the loudspeaker and listening room, gaining a better understanding and control of nonlinear distortion and the directivity of the loudspeaker.

That statement brings foremost to my mind that tomorrow is here today, in the form of JBL Array Series, with its vertical aligned horns.

The Array protoypes.....................................Array 1400
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post #283 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 07:29 PM
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That statement brings foremost to my mind that tomorrow is here today, in the form of JBL Array Series, with its vertical aligned horns.

The Array protoypes.....................................Array 1400

Wow. That's a serious sound system, and some serious bucks. I probably owe you a dinner or something for that Does it play loud enough for you? Did you notice that one of the loudspeakers in the photo of our speaker shuffler in the Multichannel Listening Lab is yours?


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post #284 of 513 Old 07-02-2009, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tonmeister2008 View Post

Wow. That's a serious sound system, and some serious bucks. I probably owe you a dinner or something for that Does it play loud enough for you? Did you notice that one of the loudspeakers in the photo of our speaker shuffler in the Multichannel Listening Lab is yours?

Sean, That's Greg Timber's Array system. That pic was originally posted on the LH site.
I wish I owned those, I'm running PS system with a pair of SUB1500s.


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post #285 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 03:24 AM
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WOW my wife was just looking over my sholder and told me that we would be heading for divorce court if I even though about carting "a living room full of balck junk" into our house. So how do you guys do it, this stuff is seriously BIG and I'll have to agree with my wife somewhat ugly. So is this a picture of your garage or what?

regards
Robert
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post #286 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 09:29 AM
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WOW my wife was just looking over my sholder and told me that we would be heading for divorce court if I even though about carting "a living room full of balck junk" into our house. So how do you guys do it, this stuff is seriously BIG and I'll have to agree with my wife somewhat ugly. So is this a picture of your garage or what?

Some people are single (lucky them). Some people have an understanding spouse that actually enjoys the 'home theater' experience (like me).
And some people are unfortunate enough to be with a woman that doesn't know the meaning of the word compromise. Also, they generally pee sitting down because their wife has their manhood safely tucked away in a Bell jar under the kitchen sink.

Anyway, I vote this thready get stickied.
There's a lot of good info. I know I've learned quite a few things.

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post #287 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chipamp View Post

WOW my wife was just looking over my sholder and told me that we would be heading for divorce court if I even though about carting "a living room full of balck junk" into our house. So how do you guys do it, this stuff is seriously BIG and I'll have to agree with my wife somewhat ugly. So is this a picture of your garage or what?

regards
Robert

Separate HT room from the living room?

We don't have a TV in the living room anymore. One in the kitchen, one in the master bedroom, one in the playroom and the best in the HT/TV/Audio room.

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post #288 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by chipamp View Post

WOW my wife was just looking over my sholder and told me that we would be heading for divorce court if I even though about carting "a living room full of balck junk" into our house. So how do you guys do it, this stuff is seriously BIG and I'll have to agree with my wife somewhat ugly. So is this a picture of your garage or what?

regards
Robert

Custom HT room....My wife calls it the "Man Room".

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post #289 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by chipamp View Post

Sean,
It is interesting that you say that low THD is not necessarily preferred in loud speaker listening tests. This agrees with what I found many years ago when I was involved in loudspeaker feedback / correction projects. The basic problem was that we could correct for the motor and compliance non-linearity's, certainly all those within the pistonic limit of the driver, BUT even when the distortion was corrected to very low levels (below 0.5%) there was a strong "blind test" preference for the uncorrected speakers. We thought it was due to the increased IM distortion resulting from the band-limited correction.
We focused for a long time on extending the correction mechanisms to include regions of cone break-up and thereby to eliminate the IM distortion but even with this, people still usually preferred "uncorrected".

Ok none of this should come as news to anyone that has worked in the field, however what is interesting is that I have recently resurrected some of the algorithms / methods that we used many years ago and applied them individually to arrays of small speakers (2 and 3 in cones) each individually controlled and amp'ed and delayed, with this arrangement there was a strong preference (in very limited tests) for the corrected speaker. The delays to the array were controlled to create a wide band sound field and the speakers were mounted on a curved surface so that the off axis response was also controlled.

Regards
Robert

Good post, I have been comparing domes vs ribbons and then vs Compression Drivers (waveguide/horns).

I believe people are just use to the distortion in the domes. Some call it a "Shimmer" but its definitely different then the ribbon.

I have taking a year to get use to my Ribbons but now Domes are horrible IMO.

Could all these tests also prove that it takes time to educate and our listening experience will dictate what we like?

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post #290 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

What is "perfect" polar response?

Craig

Sorry Craig I missed your question,

Good question.....uniform around to 90 degrees on the horizontal? maybe 45 degrees on the Vertical?

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post #291 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:18 AM
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WOW my wife was just looking over my sholder and told me that we would be heading for divorce court if I even though about carting "a living room full of balck junk" into our house. So how do you guys do it, this stuff is seriously BIG and I'll have to agree with my wife somewhat ugly. So is this a picture of your garage or what?

regards
Robert

I try to understand the wife factor but it doesn't make any sense to me. It's pretty simple, if people don't support each other's interests, then what the heck they even doing together. If someone said they were leaving because you wanted some speakers, then politely hold back your laugh about their narrow mindedness and just say goodbye. Pretty simple. Find somone else, or being single is fun too.
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post #292 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by avmjt View Post

I try to understand the wife factor but it doesn't make any sense to me. It's pretty simple, if people don't support each other's interests, then what the heck they even doing together. Find somone else, or being single is fun too. If someone said they were leaving because you wanted some speakers, then just say goodbye and try to hold back your laugh about such narrow mindedness. Pretty simple.

Not to get into how marriages last (considering more then 50% fail) but I know I have been married for 14 years because I DO COMPROMISE. Are you married?
Lets just say that if any one actually thinks speakers are that important compared to a marriage they should not be married Sorry but speakers are like furniture or shoes to most people!

Personally, my family room has to look good, ugly speakers do not go over well with guests. Im not a student any more with a big system that cost more then the room. The room has to be well designed and the speakers have to fit the room. Many pics on here would not work where I live, what I own and in my family room, yes its just the way the elitist snobby part of town works and I have to live with that HT Room is a different story its MY room

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post #293 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:30 AM
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My question is sincere. What I don't understand is, why do people want to be married when that means they can't make their own decisions based upon their wishes? What is it about marriage that is more important than having the freedom to do as you wish? I know everyone is different, but I can't unsterstand why anyone would think that anything is more important than their freedom.
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post #294 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:52 AM
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My question is sincere. What I don't understand is, why do people want to be married when that means they can't make their own decisions based upon their wishes? What is it about marriage that is more important than having the freedom to do as you wish? I know everyone is different, but I can't unsterstand why anyone would think that anything is more important than their freedom.

Are you married?

Companionship, sharing life experiences with someone else for some maybe be more important that 100% freedom. I know Kids are 1000% more important than any piece of audio equipment I own.

But now this is OT and lets get back to talking about how great Pro audio monitors can be in house.

Im going to be getting the SH-Mini from Danley soon

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post #295 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:52 AM
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The room has to be well designed and the speakers have to fit the room. Many pics on here would not work where I live, what I own and in my family room, yes its just the way the elitist snobby part of town works and I have to live with that HT Room is a different story its MY room

With so many options available, there's no reason to be forced to settle with ugly speakers. There are so many great looking furniture grade speakers available that also sound amazing. And there's no need for huge towers with 12's when all you need are maybe some tri-way 6's with a hidden sub or two.
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post #296 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by avmjt View Post

With so many options available, there's no reason to be forced to settle with ugly speakers. There are so many great looking furniture grade speakers available that also sound amazing. And there's no need for huge towers with 12's when all you need are maybe some tri-way 6's with a hidden sub or two.

Thats the beauty of being a free man in a free market.
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post #297 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by avmjt View Post

With so many options available, there's no reason to be forced to settle with ugly speakers. There are so many great looking furniture grade speakers available that also sound amazing. And there's no need for huge towers with 12's when all you need are maybe some tri-way 6's with a hidden sub or two.

very true!

but you can have your puny 6" drivers, I will take 12" pro audio drivers every day of the week. My dynamics have never been better!

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post #298 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 12:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Are you married?

Companionship, sharing life experiences with someone else for some maybe be more important that 100% freedom. I know Kids are 1000% more important than any piece of audio equipment I own.

OK, Penn and I are 100% on the same page.
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post #299 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 12:20 PM
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Check out this post about the JBL 6328p studio monitors, some of the best speakers on the planet:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post16679968

Notice they are using 'studio monitors' in a home theater reference setup.

Good speakers are good speakers, and these are among the best of the best.

my friend is using 5 of those with a B&K Reference 50 S2 pre-pro

and 2 LSR6312SP powered studio subs

All this noise about noise.
♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫
Finding the acoustic sweet spot.
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post #300 of 513 Old 07-03-2009, 12:27 PM
 
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my friend is using 5 of those with a B&K Reference 50 S2 pre-pro

and 2 LSR6312SP powered studio subs

Dang!
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