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post #181 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 04:22 PM
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What I find interesting is that many say they like "speaker A warm lowend" or speaker B crispy treble" and so on. That, to me, looks like they like the speakers coloration, but in the end, most get tired of it. That's the problem, IMO. That one looks for a speaker that have something instead of looking for a speaker that have nothing! A speaker that have so little own signature over the sound that you can only say "I like that I don't hear the speaker, just the music". I truelly believe that is a speaker that will win in the long run.

I must say that if someone asked me about my speakers, that I have had for the past 14-15 month now, how they sound, I would have to say, nothing. I have still not found ANY coloration that give a little sameness over the sound. Maybe there is something, but I have not found it yet. Like today, some friend came over to listen to my system and we did play a lot of different music and recording qualities and it is scary how different everything sounded. One guy even asked me if the version I played of Razor's Evil invader (old trash metal) was a remix, it sounded so different than at his place.

I'm not saying that my speakers are the best in the world and have no coloration at all. All I'm saying is, I have not heard any sameness to the sound, all music sound extremly miscellaneous and I have not found anything better. Maybe I will, maybe not. All I trying to say is; look for a speaker that don't stand out in any way. Not bright, not muddy, not forward, not laidback, not any sameness at all. If the music, even within the same album, really sound very different on them, maybe the coloration is very low = neutral speaker. And happy hunting

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post #182 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

A speaker that have so little own signature over the sound that you can only say "I like that I don't hear the speaker, just the music". I truelly believe that is a speaker that will win in the long run.

Agreed.


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post #183 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 04:48 PM
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post #184 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

I am in no way an expert on loudspeaker design and engineering, but my experience has been that you do “generally” get what you pay for. For instance, all things being equal, a great recording on an average loudspeaker system sounds very good, but a great recording on a state of the art loudspeaker system sounds = AMAZING!

I totally agree with hifisponge on this though, i.e., brighter sounding speakers add life and air to dull recordings, yet the downside is they can get rather edgy and/or cause listening fatigue. I experienced that going from Paradigm to PSB. Embarrassing enough as it is to admit now, in Feb I posted in the “quest for the perfect speaker” thread that the PSB Synchs were it for me = WRONG! 4 months later I was bored by them as most of what I listened sounded too dark. While the warm and extremely refined mid range was there, it lacked air and detail in the highs – sounded rather “splashy” at times. I have since gone back to Dynaudio and I have been very pleased so far. I have a pair of Audience 42’s that are mostly used for surrounds, but they make a great main too. I have a Focus center and I just traded my Focus 220 II mains for C 1 monitors and they are en’ route . The C 1 tweeter is VERY detailed. I fell in live with them in the store but I have yet to bring them home to listen.

I do like the warmness of the Audience 42 in terms of dull recordings, or pop music as it covers up some of the edginess. I was listening to Blink 182 on them today and it sounded really nice! But the soundstage depth and layering, top end openness and air, and accurate presentation of voicing and instruments is limited, and rightfully so as it is merely a $850 pair. Granted, with that said all of the garbage in the recording is more prevalent through a C1. That is just something that has to be understood going to a more high end loudspeaker. More revealing means more revealiing of EVERYTHING! If one is mostly into poorly recorded music, then that would be a waste of cash IMO.

So while the quest for a perfect cost effective loudspeaker is not without compromises, going to a higher end speaker can minimize the variables to other weak links in the chain (e.g., recording, electronics, room). But with a poorly designed loudspeaker, or one that is well compromised, it is basically going to stop right there. As far as the EQ goes, I am not closed off to it but for now I prefer to hear the recording as is, good or bad. If it sucks, I am finally wise enough to realize it is not the speakers fault. Happy listening!

Well I'm sorry that the PSBs didn't work out for ya, and I know how humbling it can be to think you've found "the one" only to fall out of love soon after. However, I can't help but think that a little targeted EQ in the upper treble of the PSBs might have helped with the dark sound. I've seen measurements on the Synchrony's in a couple different publications, and they all show a bit of roll-off in the upper treble. Some things can't be addressed with EQ, but if it is just a matter of too much or too little of this or that, I think the chances are that you can change the sound to your liking with EQ.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but after a few weeks I noticed that the treble detail of my current speakers wasn't quite what I wanted, yet I knew that the Scan Speak Revelator tweeter in my speakers is quite capable of great sounding highs. So I took an in-room measurement of the speaker at 3 feet (the same distance that most publications measure) to see what was going on. I was expecting to see some treble roll-off or for the overall treble level to be low. Well it was actually at the same level as the midrange (as it should be), but... when I measured at my 13 foot listening position the treble was down in level quite a bit. It is normal to see a decline in the upper treble level as you get further away, but I think I sit a bit too far for a speaker with flat response to get the detail I like. My prepro has a PEQ, so what I did was to lift the upper treble to more closely match the treble level at 8 feet. Problem solved.

The C1's also have flat response, so I hope you don't sit too far from them.

- Tim


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post #185 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

However, I can't help but think that a little targeted EQ in the upper treble of the PSBs might have helped with the dark sound. I've seen measurements on the Synchrony's in a couple different publications, and they all show a bit of roll-off in the upper treble.

Yes - that is very true and that's exactly what I would do. My Integra DTR 9.9 receiver has a PE-EQ and Audyssey, so I would normally run Audyssey and that would do the trick. But I prefer as little as possible between the source and loudspeakers for the best possible represenation of the actual recording. The fact that the Barton design chose to roll off the top for "fatgue free" listening was a real compromise to other importantant top end qualities. Sure another pass through an EQ isn't a big deal, but I couldn't help but think what other processing was going on, plus it would literally drive me up the wall not preferring a "direct pass" on 75% + of what I listen to. My intentions were to upgrade to an Integrated for 2 channel listening, such as I have now with the Naim XS-2 Integrated. I really preferred not to EQ with that piece in the mix.

The treble was very noticeably rolled off up top and not nearly as airy as my Dynaudio Audience or Focus (although Focus tends to be tipped up a bit - well suited for HT).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

The C1's also have flat response, so I hope you don't sit too far from them.

Using the EQ to correct like that sounds like you came up with a great solution. BTW I do nearfield listening so it shouldn't be a problem, plus the confidence tweeter is quite capable of allot of information so it should be interesting!
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post #186 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by NIN74 View Post

What I find interesting is that many say they like "speaker A warm lowend" or speaker B crispy treble" and so on. That, to me, looks like they like the speakers coloration, but in the end, most get tired of it. That's the problem, IMO. That one looks for a speaker that have something instead of looking for a speaker that have nothing! A speaker that have so little own signature over the sound that you can only say "I like that I don't hear the speaker, just the music". I truelly believe that is a speaker that will win in the long run.

I must say that if someone asked me about my speakers, that I have had for the past 14-15 month now, how they sound, I would have to say, nothing. I have still not found ANY coloration that give a little sameness over the sound. Maybe there is something, but I have not found it yet. Like today, some friend came over to listen to my system and we did play a lot of different music and recording qualities and it is scary how different everything sounded. One guy even asked me if the version I played of Razor's Evil invader (old trash metal) was a remix, it sounded so different than at his place.

I'm not saying that my speakers are the best in the world and have no coloration at all. All I'm saying is, I have not heard any sameness to the sound, all music sound extremly miscellaneous and I have not found anything better. Maybe I will, maybe not. All I trying to say is; look for a speaker that don't stand out in any way. Not bright, not muddy, not forward, not laidback, not any sameness at all. If the music, even within the same album, really sound very different on them, maybe the coloration is very low = neutral speaker. And happy hunting

Are you still running the Ino Audio I32's? Never seen or heard them here in the states but they look quite exquisite! I saw the price of them and they are up there at little bit! My point - one has to pay to get what you are referring to (more music and minimal colorations). That is not possible with budget constrained designs. Maybe in DIY world but not otherwise. If it does exist someone please tell me. A colorless speaker for under $5k? I've never heard one.
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post #187 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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GPowered -

As rational as I try to be, I completely understand having a hang up with having to alter the sound. There is something inside me that says for what I paid for these, I shouldn't have to. For years I was obsessed with finding speakers that I wouldn't have to touch, but after going through speaker after speaker after speaker, I've come to realize that there is always going to be something that doesn't quite live up to my expectations. I don't consciously try to pick things apart, but it's in my wiring (left brained, problem solver).

Anyway, on one hand I can appreciate the purist approach, especially if you listen to a lot of naturally recorded music. On the other hand, it is my understanding that most music, even stuff like audiophile jazz recordings are all heavily manipulated during the mastering process. They're EQ'd, expanded, compressed, converted from A to D and back again who knows how many times, effects like reverb are added, and generally run through an assortment of processors to get the final product to sound the way the engineer and the artist want.

So it seems to me that another EQ in the playback system isn't going to matter much in regards to preserving the integrity of the signal since it was mangled long before it ever makes it to us. Besides, the benefits sure outweigh the consequence in my case.

Not preaching, and everyone has to find their own path, just sharing my experiences.

- Tim


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post #188 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

GPowered -

As rational as I try to be, I completely understand having a hang up with having to alter the sound. There is something inside me that says for what I paid for these, I shouldn't have to. For years I was obsessed with finding speakers that I wouldn't have to touch, but after going through speaker after speaker after speaker, I've come to realize that there is always going to be something that doesn't quite live up to my expectations. I don't consciously try to pick things apart, but it's in my wiring (left brained, problem solver).

Anyway, on one hand I can appreciate the purist approach, especially if you listen to a lot of naturally recorded music. On the other hand, it is my understanding that most music, even stuff like audiophile jazz recordings are all heavily manipulated during the mastering process. They're EQ'd, expanded, compressed, converted from A to D and back again who knows how many times, effects like reverb are added, and generally run through an assortment of processors to get the final product to sound the way the engineer and the artist want.

So it seems to me that another EQ in the playback system isn't going to matter much in regards to preserving the integrity of the signal since it was mangled long before it ever makes it to us. Besides, the benefits sure outweigh the consequence in my case.

Not preaching, and everyone has to find their own path, just sharing my experiences.

I agree with your assessments (especially the OCD part). And since you are using an EQ to correct for room deficiencies, or tailor certain recordings to your liking, that makes sense. On the other hand, in a case like mine with my former PSB's, it was just too painstaking. I could literally switch from stereo to direct and my highs would move further back and become more faint ... very strange and was not my cup of tea. Perhaps if I would have tried different electronics (better quality high current) and a real 2 channel pre, things would have been different. But there were other reasons too, such it being very top heavy! Not a very kid friendly speaker to have. Needless to say it was time to move – my Naim stuff and new C 1 ‘s come in over the next few weeks so it should get interesting!
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post #189 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, you still have to have a good foundation to work with, even if you EQ, and it sounds like the PSB's were a little too far off the mark. I get that.

- Tim


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post #190 of 496 Old 07-26-2009, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

Are you still running the Ino Audio I32's? Never seen or heard them here in the states but they look quite exquisite! I saw the price of them and they are up there at little bit! My point - one has to pay to get what you are referring to (more music and minimal colorations). That is not possible with budget constrained designs. Maybe in DIY world but not otherwise. If it does exist someone please tell me. A colorless speaker for under $5k? I've never heard one.


Well, I could give you a good suggestion for around 5K$. A used Ino pi60s
Best fullrange speaker I have heard and they have the same "no-sound" as mine except my system is larger (more SPL, lower bas).

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post #191 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GPowered View Post

My point - one has to pay to get what you are referring to (more music and minimal colorations). That is not possible with budget constrained designs. Maybe in DIY world but not otherwise. If it does exist someone please tell me. A colorless speaker for under $5k? I've never heard one.

Completely colorless? Hmm...dunno if such thing exists, but I have heard a few come close. Check out Salk Sound (HT2 TL's, HT3's and SongTower RT's) and Vandersteen's Model 5A's. Honestly, I cannot think of anything else right now that I've heard that didn't have some sort of noticeable coloration. But I guess that's what separates many manufactures and (oddly enough) keeps their business a' floatin'. I'll take the least colored speakers any day, and I think I've arrived to that point within my budget. My budget was less than $5K, though. I'd move up to the fully active HT3's if I had that budget.

Of course, none of this matters if the recording quality isn't top notch on everything out there (which it obviously isn't). That's why fully active is the way to go IMO. You can just re-tune it to whatever type of FR you prefer, and best of all you can do it with any and all your recordings. Still, I doubt it'll make a crap recording sound "good." Ah well, back to square one.

Seriously though, if you do find a speaker that gets you close enough to what you consider "perfection," and you fix all other anomalies and issues (like room acoustics for example), your well recorded music will sound spectacular; something that many people haven't even achieved or experienced yet. If you are one of the few, just enjoy!


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post #192 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 05:32 AM
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Tim, the roll-off could be due to the nature of your room treatments as well as the natural tendency of high frequencies to be attenuated more than lower ones with increasing distance. http://www.mcsquared.com/excessdb.htm

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post #193 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Tim, the roll-off could be due to the nature of your room treatments as well as the natural tendency of high frequencies to be attenuated more than lower ones with increasing distance. http://www.mcsquared.com/excessdb.htm

Hey Chu -

I'm familiar with the general drop in dB with distance, and also the progressive drop in dB with high frequencies with distance, but what I don't understand is the psychoacoustics of the HF roll-off and just how much roll-off is acceptable / desirable. Some say that the HF roll-off with distance is desirable because this is what we humans expect to hear. In my experience with Audyssey in a Denon AVR I owned a little while back, I always preferred the "flat" setting at my seat, as opposed to the "Audyssey" setting, which rolls off the highs. Thoughts?

Also, what is your theory about my room treatment contributing to the HF roll off?

BTW - here's the acoustical data on the panels used in my ceiling treatment. I have the 4 inch panels installed.

http://www.rpginc.com/products/badpa...ion%20Data.pdf

- Tim


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post #194 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 12:32 PM
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No, I didn't get a listen. I wasn't even there. I really wanted to go, but it's along drive, and it was a bad weekend for my family and I. I sure hope to meet Dennis someday, though.

I forget where people were commenting about the "UFO" speaker...thought someone mentioned what the sound was like. Hmm...if I find the thread I will link it.

Yes, those were the HT4's. I think he's got them in the "final revision" stage now, but those were his prototype pair. They house two passive's and a 12" AE driver for low extension. The ribbon is in fact a RAAL, but it's a special revision that allows for an attenuator to be used to boost or lower HF response slightly to correct for odd room anomalies. The midrange is actually a FAL open back midrange. I had my chance to hear that speaker, but again it was on a bad weekend for me. No luck for me in 09. Anyway, an active version of the HT4 could certainly be my (near) "perfect" speaker. Well...looks excluded anyway.

Nuance, just come over the DIY world and we can get close to that speaker

I have the AE15 and 2 PRs on order now too so I will build subwoofer and then I will build a bass bin that will mimick the HT4s giving my custom DIYs a new face lift and let them go down to 24Hz. ( I have the Neopro5i/PHL1120 MT speaker already with AE TD12s, its damn good and detailed....limited vertical though so do not walk around )

Not the best pic (I take crap pictures).


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post #195 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 12:39 PM
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Hey Chu -

I'm familiar with the general drop in dB with distance, and also the progressive drop in dB with high frequencies with distance, but what I don't understand is the psychoacoustics of the HF roll-off and just how much roll-off is acceptable / desirable. Some say that the HF roll-off with distance is desirable because this is what we humans expect to hear. In my experience with Audyssey in a Denon AVR I owned a little while back, I always preferred the "flat" setting at my seat, as opposed to the "Audyssey" setting, which rolls off the highs. Thoughts?

Also, what is your theory about my room treatment contributing to the HF roll off?

BTW - here's the acoustical data on the panels used in my ceiling treatment. I have the 4 inch panels installed.

http://www.rpginc.com/products/badpa...ion%20Data.pdf


I never understood why RPG needs 4" to do what 2" OC703 does. Also I assume there is a facing on the RPG products to reflect the highest frequencies? 2'x4' panels wrap in fabric is really cheap ($40 per panel) so RPG seems expensive to me.

Check out the numbers on all the different materials.
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

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post #196 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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I never understood why RPG needs 4" to do what 2" OC703 does. Also I assume there is a facing on the RPG products to reflect the highest frequencies? 2'x4' panels wrap in fabric is really cheap ($40 per panel) so RPG seems expensive to me.

Check out the numbers on all the different materials.
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

The RPG "BAD" panels are reflective in the HF, which is what the acoustician felt the room needed. He wanted to address a "honkiness" in the midrange caused by the room without killing the HF. The BAD panels also provide dispersion at high frequencies. Broadband absorption with standard fiberglass would get the tailored results he wanted.

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post #197 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Hey Chu -

I'm familiar with the general drop in dB with distance, and also the progressive drop in dB with high frequencies with distance, but what I don't understand is the psychoacoustics of the HF roll-off and just how much roll-off is acceptable / desirable.

Tim, I guess that just depends on the person. I don't see it as a hard and fast answer written in stone.

Quote:


Some say that the HF roll-off with distance is desirable because this is what we humans expect to hear. In my experience with Audyssey in a Denon AVR I owned a little while back, I always preferred the "flat" setting at my seat, as opposed to the "Audyssey" setting, which rolls off the highs. Thoughts?

Whatever works Tim. Whatever works. I don't criticize.

Quote:


Also, what is your theory about my room treatment contributing to the HF roll off?

BTW - here's the acoustical data on the panels used in my ceiling treatment. I have the 4 inch panels installed.

http://www.rpginc.com/products/badpa...ion%20Data.pdf

Well you didn't provide levels as to how much of a drop you were talking about and at what specific frequencies. I don't have much to go on. This could be a thing of finding the right mix between absorption and diffusion though?

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post #198 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post


Well you didn't provide levels as to how much of a drop you were talking about and at what specific frequencies. I don't have much to go on. This could be a thing of finding the right mix between absorption and diffusion though?

Here's the 3 foot measure of the left speaker:


The 13 foot measure:


And 13 feet with EQ:


So at 13 feet, the response is about 5dB down at 15K compared to 1KHz, but only 1dB down at 3 feet. The EQ I applied at 13 feet essentially restored the treble balance to the 3 foot levels. Without EQ, there is a lack of definition in the treble at the listening position.

- Tim


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post #199 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 02:18 PM
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I agree with your assessments (especially the OCD part). And since you are using an EQ to correct for room deficiencies, or tailor certain recordings to your liking, that makes sense. On the other hand, in a case like mine with my former PSB's, it was just too painstaking. I could literally switch from stereo to direct and my highs would move further back and become more faint ... very strange and was not my cup of tea. Perhaps if I would have tried different electronics (better quality high current) and a real 2 channel pre, things would have been different. But there were other reasons too, such it being very top heavy! Not a very kid friendly speaker to have. Needless to say it was time to move - my Naim stuff and new C 1 s come in over the next few weeks so it should get interesting!

Part of why I love this hobby most of the time. My experience with the PSB Synchrony was quite different. I still have 15-18000hz hearing and in my room the PSB's bested the Monitor Audio GS20's I also own. While the MA had SLIGHTLY more "air" as you described previously, it was during a 12 hour torture test of all different kinds of music at moderately high to high volume that the extra crispness of the MA did become fatiguing. While the MA has tons of detail, I thought the PSB's were equally detailed but more cohesive in the sense that the entire frequency range fit together very well while the MA seemed to present each frequency range distinctly without the "togetherness" displayed by the PSB's.

I'm with hifisponge on the no perfect speaker line of thought as I have a friend who loves Snell and Revel while I say OK but not for me. Whereas Martin Logan and Aerial are two of my favorites and he's ambivalent towards both.

Fun stuff and the quest will continue

Jgiddyup
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post #200 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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giddyup -

You raise a great point. The volume you listen at will also affect your preference for a speaker. Like to listen at low to medium volumes, well then you probably want a speaker with a smile curve to the response. You like it loud? Then a bit of roll off in the treble may take the sting out of the sound. I run into this problem all the time. There is a sweet spot for the volume. If it is too low, the music is uninteresting. Too high and it gets aggressive.

This is why dynamic loudness control interests me. It raises the bass and treble levels at low volumes and flattens the response as you raise the volume. It is tech like this that has the promise to make us all happier I believe. But then, I'm not a purist.

- Tim


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post #201 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

giddyup -

You raise a great point. The volume you listen at will also affect your preference for a speaker. Like to listen at low to medium volumes, well then you probably want a speaker with a smile curve to the response. You like it loud? Then a bit of roll off in the treble may take the sting out of the sound. I run into this problem all the time. There is a sweet spot for the volume. If it is too low, the music is uninteresting. Too high and it gets aggressive.

This is why dynamic loudness control interests me. It raises the bass and treble levels at low volumes and flattens the response as you raise the volume. It is tech like this that has the promise to make us all happier I believe. But then, I'm not a purist.



And this also brings back into play the point that it isn't JUST the speaker, but the total system including the room that makes for a good listening experience.
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And this also brings back into play the point that it isn't JUST the speaker, but the total system including the room that makes for a good listening experience.

Yes sir indeed.

- Tim


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post #203 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post


And 13 feet with EQ:


So at 13 feet, the response is about 5dB down at 15K compared to 1KHz, but only 1dB down at 3 feet. The EQ I applied at 13 feet essentially restored the treble balance to the 3 foot levels. Without EQ, there is a lack of definition in the treble at the listening position.

That graph at 13 feet with EQ looks pretty darn good bud (minus the dip at 2500, but what can ya do?). I would have bumped the HF just like you did - nice. All that matters is how it sounds to you, though. And you're happy with the sound, right (again, which is all that matters)? I wish I could hear your WB's.

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Nuance, just come over the DIY world and we can get close to that speaker

I have the AE15 and 2 PRs on order now too so I will build subwoofer and then I will build a bass bin that will mimick the HT4s giving my custom DIYs a new face lift and let them go down to 24Hz. ( I have the Neopro5i/PHL1120 MT speaker already with AE TD12s, its damn good and detailed....limited vertical though so do not walk around )

Not the best pic (I take crap pictures).

What does something like that cost if you go the DIY route? Just curious.
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And this also brings back into play the point that it isn't JUST the speaker, but the total system including the room that makes for a good listening experience.

Absolutely!

And good point Tim about listening volumes. We'll have to add the "great at low and high level listening" to the "perfect speaker" criteria.


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post #204 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 07:12 PM
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What does something like that cost if you go the DIY route? Just curious.

Absolutely!

It depends on what discounts exist and I actually used Live.com 30% cashback and ebay to get the Neopro5is and TD12S drivers so I got a good chunk of cashback from that using that method last year.

The drivers alone for each set of 3 DIY Speakers MSRP around $800 shipped ($1000 if you want to AV15s and PRs for full range), Active digital crossover is $400 and you need 3 amp channels per speaker.

btw, I never choose the RAALs at the time since there wasnt much discussion, since then John @ AE says they are superior (vertical axis) but their price tag is much higher.

Its still a very expensive DIY solution but it compares to much higher cost commercial choices.

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post #205 of 496 Old 07-27-2009, 10:00 PM
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Completely colorless? Hmm...dunno if such thing exists, but I have heard a few come close. Check out Salk Sound (HT2 TL's, HT3's and SongTower RT's) and Vandersteen's Model 5A's. Honestly, I cannot think of anything else right now that I've heard that didn't have some sort of noticeable coloration. But I guess that's what separates many manufactures and (oddly enough) keeps their business a' floatin'. I'll take the least colored speakers any day, and I think I've arrived to that point within my budget. My budget was less than $5K, though. I'd move up to the fully active HT3's if I had that budget.

Of course, none of this matters if the recording quality isn't top notch on everything out there (which it obviously isn't). That's why fully active is the way to go IMO. You can just re-tune it to whatever type of FR you prefer, and best of all you can do it with any and all your recordings. Still, I doubt it'll make a crap recording sound "good." Ah well, back to square one.

Seriously though, if you do find a speaker that gets you close enough to what you consider "perfection," and you fix all other anomalies and issues (like room acoustics for example), your well recorded music will sound spectacular; something that many people haven't even achieved or experienced yet. If you are one of the few, just enjoy!

Nuance - I eyed Salk for a while as they were hot on my list. I couldn't find a method of demoing a pair in FL! If I were to try Salk, it would be the HT2 TL - very nice looking loudspeaker! The 3 is much too large for me. I've heard nothing but great things about them, and Jim is a stand up guy. With that said, I find it hard pressed to believe he can build a loudspeaker on the same scale as a Dynaudio Confidence level. I say that because for starters, I've never heard Salk, and secondly, Dynaudio has more fire power in terms of experience, captial, R&D, and technological expertise. I have NEVER heard a tweeter as detailed, airy, and yet non-fatiguing as the Eso 2, other than perhaps a Focal Diablo but that is off the scale in terms of price.

Not to take anything away from Salk - they seem to amaze - but at the end of the day with the opportunity to hear one co. and not the other, it came down to what I knew.

If I could do it all over again, I would try harder to demo a pair of Salks. Perhaps that would change my thinking a bit ... but for now I am satisfied and excited to be an impending C 1 owner!
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If I could do it all over again, I would try harder to demo a pair of Salks. Perhaps that would change my thinking a bit ... but for now I am satisfied and excited to be an impending C 1 owner!


The C1's were the next on my list if the WB's didn't work out. I'm wishing that I could have at least heard them first before making the decision, but like you with the Salks, there is no local Dynaudio dealer. I have a dealer in CA that I work with, but I didn't want to pay for shipping here and back. I did have the Sapphires in my room for a while though and I agree that the tweeter is one of my favs. That and the Scanspeak Revelator silk dome.

What finish are you going with?

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post #207 of 496 Old 07-28-2009, 12:18 AM
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Nuance - I eyed Salk for a while as they were hot on my list. I couldn't find a method of demoing a pair in FL! If I were to try Salk, it would be the HT2 TL - very nice looking loudspeaker! The 3 is much too large for me. I've heard nothing but great things about them, and Jim is a stand up guy. With that said, I find it hard pressed to believe he can build a loudspeaker on the same scale as a Dynaudio Confidence level. I say that because for starters, I've never heard Salk, and secondly, Dynaudio has more fire power in terms of experience, captial, R&D, and technological expertise. I have NEVER heard a tweeter as detailed, airy, and yet non-fatiguing as the Eso 2, other than perhaps a Focal Diablo but that is off the scale in terms of price.

Not to take anything away from Salk - they seem to amaze - but at the end of the day with the opportunity to hear one co. and not the other, it came down to what I knew.

If I could do it all over again, I would try harder to demo a pair of Salks. Perhaps that would change my thinking a bit ... but for now I am satisfied and excited to be an impending C 1 owner!

Fair enough, but I think you'd be VERY surprised. I've heard the Confidence C1 and Contour S1.4's - HT2 TL's wins hands down. The C1 was way better than the S1.4, though. I'd also be willing to bet the that HT4's would take the Confidence C4 in a head-to-head match. How's that for "confidence?" YMMV, of course.

You do realize that your above criteria do not a great speaker engineer make, right? The bigger guns don't win in this industry; the smartest engineer's do.

I completely understand the lack of ease to audition. You gotta do what you gotta do. There are owners in FL, though.

Enjoy your Confidence 1's.


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post #208 of 496 Old 07-28-2009, 06:03 AM
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Nuance - I eyed Salk for a while as they were hot on my list. I couldn't find a method of demoing a pair in FL!

buy them and then return if you do not like them. I have done it with Salk speakers.

To get the best sound people DO have to spend money to R&D products.

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post #209 of 496 Old 07-28-2009, 06:05 AM
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Dynaudio has more fire power in terms of experience, captial, R&D, and technological expertise. I have NEVER heard a tweeter as detailed, airy, and yet non-fatiguing as the Eso 2, other than perhaps a Focal Diablo but that is off the scale in terms of price.

That has little to do with speaker quality....bigger companies are more about profit, short cuts and the bottom line vs companies like Salk, Seaton, JTR, etc that are all about best speaker designs, best sound, best setup....profit is important but its not first on the list with them.

Driver selection really is company independant too!

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post #210 of 496 Old 07-28-2009, 08:47 AM
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That has little to do with speaker quality....bigger companies are more about profit, short cuts and the bottom line vs companies like Salk, Seaton, JTR, etc that are all about best speaker designs, best sound, best setup....profit is important but its not first on the list with them.

Driver selection really is company independant too!

You are describing Corporate America as a whole, and there is truth to that but it's not the ultimate verdict with all mainstream speaker companies.

I have a career in Finance/Accounting, so I can identify with that point. However, Dynaudio has a great business model compared to many other speaker companies. The components they build are some of best in the industry, hands down. They tend to put the $ into components and design engineering, opposed to glitter and chicanery to get the bandwagon rolling. I do not in any way represent them, but I will say that up to this point they represent the most neutral and pleasant sound I've heard to date. The music just flows as it should. I would love to hear the Salk and find out what all of the rave is about!

I AM REALLY GREATFUL for this forum - you guys give me ideas for synergy in my own system, and it's great to hear what is working well for all of you.



Were you saying you have tried the Salks and ended up sending them back, or did you trial and keep them?
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