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post #30331 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I know it sounds crazy, but I am thinking about downgrading to the 228HTR's. Not sure yet. Reading that Jeff extended the pricing through July, I am thinking even more about it.
If you still have your subs (Triax's?) that might be a smart move especially considering your HT room size. Of course selling all and getting a couple of Cap 1400's would be good too.

BTW, watched Ex Machina (blind buy based upon Ralph Potts review) last night with the wife. 2 thumbs up from us on that one ...

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post #30332 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I know it sounds crazy, but I am thinking about downgrading to the 228HTR's. Not sure yet. Reading that Jeff extended the pricing through July, I am thinking even more about it.
What will become of the 215's?

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post #30333 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
If you still have your subs (Triax's?) that might be a smart move especially considering your HT room size. Of course selling all and getting a couple of Cap 1400's would be good too.

BTW, watched Ex Machina (blind buy based upon Ralph Potts review) last night with the wife. 2 thumbs up from us on that one ...
Agree with you on Ex Machina...good movie.

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post #30334 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 09:41 AM
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Jeff,


I have a question.


The 228HT I had, versus the 212HT that Sheldon had were both excellent, however their presentation seemed pretty different to a few of the KC guys who compared them A/B on a few occassions - at least we thought so.


The 228HT has a focused, smaller, stereo image, and the 212HT had a larger, full front wall stereo image.


Were we imagining those traits? Is that even sensible? We compared the 228HT to the 212HT in several different rooms and the three of us that did so - carp, stitch1 and I all kind of felt that was a pretty reliable takeaway. We never tested that theory blind though.


If that trait was not imagined/placebo, (related to someone saying it and we all just starting thinking it, and then causing ourselves to hear it) - what would account for that difference in stereo presentation?


Would that be a difference in the size of the horn? or a difference in the size of the woofer (8" vs 12") or is that whole trait observation whimsical?


FWIW, carp and I preferred the big wall sound of the 212HT for stereo listening, but stitch1 preferred the more focused stereo image. (not discussing sound quality at all here - just the perceived size of the stereo imaging)


For cinema use with multiple speakers none of us could really tell the difference at all - so we are really just discussing stereo imaging (2 channel music listening).
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post #30335 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 10:06 AM
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What's the difference in directivity ? Dispersion pattern? XO frequency? Woofer size?

Those effect the size of the soundstage. As does reflections and room. A wider off axis will generally give you a bigger sound stage. A smaller pattern or more controlled speaker will sound smaller and more in front of you with less envelopment.
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post #30336 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I have a question.


The 228HT I had, versus the 212HT that Sheldon hadwere both excellent, however their presentation seemed pretty different to afew of the KC guys who compared them A/B on a few occassions - at least wethought so.


The 228HT has a focused, smaller, stereo image,and the 212HT had a larger, full front wall stereo image.


Were we imagining those traits? Is that evensensible? We compared the 228HT to the 212HT in several different rooms and thethree of us that did so - carp, stitch1 and I all kind of felt that was apretty reliable takeaway. We never tested that theory blind though.


If that trait was not imagined/placebo, (relatedto someone saying it and we all just starting thinking it, and then causingourselves to hear it) - what would account for that difference in stereopresentation?


Would that be a difference in the size of thehorn? or a difference in the size of the woofer (8" vs 12") or isthat whole trait observation whimsical?


FWIW, carp and I preferred the big wall sound ofthe 212HT for stereo listening, but stitch1 preferred the more focused stereoimage. (not discussing sound quality at all here - just the perceived size ofthe stereo imaging)


For cinema use with multiple speakers none of uscould really tell the difference at all - so we are really just discussingstereo imaging (2 channel music listening).

While both the aluminum and wooden horns are rated at 60 degrees in the horizontal, the wooden horn offers a more consistent response across the dispersion patterned which widens the stereo image. In multi channel systems this offers more consistent sound in multiple listening positions. The off-axis response is also better which improves the room integration. The new compression driver on the Noesis 228HT is much larger, more expensive (2x) and goes an octave lower for better intelligibility and integration with the woofers. Also, the new speakers are voiced to have a more full sound (relatively more mid bass). The Noesis 212HT and 228HT are a great value, providing 90% the performance of the HTR versions for 30% less money.

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post #30337 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 11:02 AM
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While both the aluminum and wooden horns are rated at 60 degrees in the horizontal, the wooden horn offers a more consistent response across the dispersion patterned which widens the stereo image. In multi channel systems this offers more consistent sound in multiple listening positions. The off-axis response is also better which improves the room integration. The new compression driver on the Noesis 228HT is much larger, more expensive (2x) and goes an octave lower for better intelligibility and integration with the woofers. Also, the new speakers are voiced to have a more full sound (relatively more mid bass). The Noesis 212HT and 228HT are a great value, providing 90% the performance of the HTR versions for 30% less money.

Man I really wish these speakers were around two years ago when I originally had bought my 228's...lol

I probably would have never sold them then. I'm moving to a new house next week and we be redoing a theatre room at the new house. I'm really going to have to rethink everything now.....lol
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post #30338 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Were we imagining those traits? Is that even sensible? We compared the 228HT to the 212HT in several different rooms and the three of us that did so - carp, stitch1 and I all kind of felt that was a pretty reliable takeaway. We never tested that theory blind though.

You and I did go blind at Carps house. That's when I first noticed my slight preference to the 228 for stereo music.

Maybe we should try to revisit this with the new models? On second thought maybe we shouldn't. We only have money to lose by tempting ourselves with even better JTR's.

I am afraid I am going to act like Carp and start hugging speakers I really shouldn't buy.
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post #30339 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
If you still have your subs (Triax's?) that might be a smart move especially considering your HT room size. Of course selling all and getting a couple of Cap 1400's would be good too.

BTW, watched Ex Machina (blind buy based upon Ralph Potts review) last night with the wife. 2 thumbs up from us on that one …
Spot on Rob. I mean I absolutely love the 215RT's, but anymore I just want to go in and watch a movie, I don't want to tinker, I just want to set it and forget it. I still have the Triax's and I miss them, another reason I would like to switch out. Considering the size of the room and with the upgraded horn in the 228HTR's, I am really thinking about doing this. Certainly going to think about it. I still have the 212HT's however I think the 228HTR's would be a better fit in the theater. Also I am considering an AT screen, so they would be a better fit behind the screen, but that would be awhile off.

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What will become of the 215's?
Not sure yet. I may store them for a bit and see what happens as I am in the market for a new home, but not actively shopping. I am looking for a home with a basement and a few other things. We actually just missed a home and we are kicking ourselves, my wife more so. We are looking for a steal and when it happens, it happens. I actually would hate to get rid of them, but I am looking at what would be a better fit.
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post #30340 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 07:20 PM
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post #30341 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 08:18 PM
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Spot on Rob. I mean I absolutely love the 215RT's, but anymore I just want to go in and watch a movie, I don't want to tinker, I just want to set it and forget it. I still have the Triax's and I miss them, another reason I would like to switch out. Considering the size of the room and with the upgraded horn in the 228HTR's, I am really thinking about doing this. Certainly going to think about it. I still have the 212HT's however I think the 228HTR's would be a better fit in the theater. Also I am considering an AT screen, so they would be a better fit behind the screen, but that would be awhile off.

Not sure yet. I may store them for a bit and see what happens as I am in the market for a new home, but not actively shopping. I am looking for a home with a basement and a few other things. We actually just missed a home and we are kicking ourselves, my wife more so. We are looking for a steal and when it happens, it happens. I actually would hate to get rid of them, but I am looking at what would be a better fit.
Is size of the speakers or subs a issue. As to why your thinking of selling? I'm also home shopping too. But, actually looking for a old home to knock down completely. And rebuild from ground up. But never want to sell my gear. Most likely adding instead.. Btw, I would regret selling my 215's with the huge amount of sound stage it puts out. Or any of my JTR gear especially the S2's..

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post #30342 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 09:22 PM
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You and I did go blind at Carps house. That's when I first noticed my slight preference to the 228 for stereo music.

Maybe we should try to revisit this with the new models? On second thought maybe we shouldn't. We only have money to lose by tempting ourselves with even better JTR's.

I am afraid I am going to act like Carp and start hugging speakers I really shouldn't buy.

Haha, yeah let's do a blind test between 2014 215's and 2015 215's. That sounds practical!! Hugs all around!!

As much as I loved the 212's, I'm so glad I went with the 215's. Listening to music full range with the ability to tailor the bass on the fly exactly how I like it depending on song/mood/etc... I don't think I could go back to an 80hz crossed speaker for stereo music.
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post #30343 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Spot on Rob. I mean I absolutely love the 215RT's, but anymore I just want to go in and watch a movie, I don't want to tinker, I just want to set it and forget it. I still have the Triax's and I miss them, another reason I would like to switch out. Considering the size of the room and with the upgraded horn in the 228HTR's, I am really thinking about doing this. Certainly going to think about it. I still have the 212HT's however I think the 228HTR's would be a better fit in the theater. Also I am considering an AT screen, so they would be a better fit behind the screen, but that would be awhile off.

Not sure yet. I may store them for a bit and see what happens as I am in the market for a new home, but not actively shopping. I am looking for a home with a basement and a few other things. We actually just missed a home and we are kicking ourselves, my wife more so. We are looking for a steal and when it happens, it happens. I actually would hate to get rid of them, but I am looking at what would be a better fit.
Just like boats...I'm offering Speaker Storage Camp specially for JTR community members...case in point, a pair of 24SR twins are spending part of the summer with me. Let me know if I can help with the 215s


In other news, finally watching Godzilla in my room...gobs of satisfying lows...and all with a shelf filter of 30hz.

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post #30344 of 30542 Old 07-18-2015, 11:32 PM
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Just like boats...I'm offering Speaker Storage Camp specially for JTR community members...case in point, a pair of 24SR twins are spending part of the summer with me. Let me know if I can help with the 215s


Haha, dude go to bed it's crazy late out there!


Completely/randomly switching topics here:

I just stumbled on this guy's room thread. If anyone has time you should read through it. I don't know if I'm slap happy because I drank way too much at the lake today or what but this was the funniest damn thread I've read in a long time. I love how this guy writes.

Here is a small taste but you have to read the whole thread from the beginning:

The Acme Studios 3D HT - in an apartment!
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post #30345 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 08:54 AM
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i could just build you a bunch of quad 4s @Reefdvr27
I love those speakers! I do want a pair. I may have to build a pair one of these days.

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Is size of the speakers or subs a issue. As to why your thinking of selling? I'm also home shopping too. But, actually looking for a old home to knock down completely. And rebuild from ground up. But never want to sell my gear. Most likely adding instead.. Btw, I would regret selling my 215's with the huge amount of sound stage it puts out. Or any of my JTR gear especially the S2's..
No, size is not an issue, but I think the 215's would be better suited in a larger room. Honestly they don't look that big in my room. They actually fit very well. I am not selling them, that is for sure. I don't like selling anything either. I would store them for a bit as I am hoping to be in a new home in the next few years. I am waiting for a foreclosure or something like that. Homes are very expensive here for some reason. We looked at a home not to long ago, new construction and a home that would be $350K in most places was listed for $899K LOL. So that is why I am sitting back and watching for a steal. It really is a joke.

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Just like boats...I'm offering Speaker Storage Camp specially for JTR community members...case in point, a pair of 24SR twins are spending part of the summer with me. Let me know if I can help with the 215s


In other news, finally watching Godzilla in my room...gobs of satisfying lows...and all with a shelf filter of 30hz.
I know one thing, the next time I take them out of the house, they are not coming back! To much work!
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post #30346 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 10:07 AM
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Haha, yeah let's do a blind test between 2014 215's and 2015 215's. That sounds practical!! Hugs all around!!

As much as I loved the 212's, I'm so glad I went with the 215's. Listening to music full range with the ability to tailor the bass on the fly exactly how I like it depending on song/mood/etc... I don't think I could go back to an 80hz crossed speaker for stereo music.
Tailoring the bass on the fly for personal preference, for me this has been my main concern potentially holding me back from 215RT's. With my OS in the rear of my HT room and the (2) subs in the fronstage all running through my Marantz AV7702 all I have to do is pop up the menu then go to levels, scroll down to subs and I can adjust them all simultaneously up or down from my remote control, super easy. What specifically are you using to do this "on the fly"? Can you control it with a remote? Please let me know thanks.
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post #30347 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Spot on Rob. I mean I absolutely love the 215RT's, but anymore I just want to go in and watch a movie, I don't want to tinker, I just want to set it and forget it. I still have the Triax's and I miss them, another reason I would like to switch out. Considering the size of the room and with the upgraded horn in the 228HTR's, I am really thinking about doing this. Certainly going to think about it. I still have the 212HT's however I think the 228HTR's would be a better fit in the theater. Also I am considering an AT screen, so they would be a better fit behind the screen, but that would be awhile off.

Not sure yet. I may store them for a bit and see what happens as I am in the market for a new home, but not actively shopping. I am looking for a home with a basement and a few other things. We actually just missed a home and we are kicking ourselves, my wife more so. We are looking for a steal and when it happens, it happens. I actually would hate to get rid of them, but I am looking at what would be a better fit.
I my opinion the key to happiness is to stop tinkering once you have them set up to your satisfaction. We need to start a Tinker's Anonymous around these parts.

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post #30348 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 10:34 AM
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Haha, dude go to bed it's crazy late out there!


Completely/randomly switching topics here:

I just stumbled on this guy's room thread. If anyone has time you should read through it. I don't know if I'm slap happy because I drank way too much at the lake today or what but this was the funniest damn thread I've read in a long time. I love how this guy writes.

Here is a small taste but you have to read the whole thread from the beginning:

The Acme Studios 3D HT - in an apartment!
That was a very entertaining thread. I would not want to live below that guy, but as he is using what looks to be a HTIB for sounds perhaps it's not to bad. I am picturing @carp living in a NYC apt right now.

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post #30349 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 10:34 AM
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Tailoring the bass on the fly for personal preference, for me this has been my main concern potentially holding me back from 215RT's. With my OS in the rear of my HT room and the (2) subs in the fronstage all running through my Marantz AV7702 all I have to do is pop up the menu then go to levels, scroll down to subs and I can adjust them all simultaneously up or down from my remote control, super easy. What specifically are you using to do this "on the fly"? Can you control it with a remote? Please let me know thanks.
Carp and I both have the DSP in the Inuke amp. You can easily bring the bass up or down with click.
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post #30350 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 12:31 PM
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What we did in RMK's system was use DSP sevice with extra inputs that allows us to hook up the the subwoofer outputs and then route the signal to his Noesis 215RTs. With this setup all you have to do was adjust the subwoofer level right in your receiver just like if you had subwoofers. I would think even the MiniDSP 88A would allow this. To go even simpler you could just get a small, high quality mixer to integrate your subwoofer outputs with your mains. The easiest would be to just buy a few stereo to mono converters. You'll need one per speaker. For the left speaker, hook up the left output from your receiver to the left input of the convert, sub out to the right input. For the right speaker, hook up the right output from your receiver to the left input of the convert, sub out to the left input.


Some ideas:
1) http://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a


2) http://www.fullcompass.com/product/2...FYcCaQodqUgC6g


3) http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...SMC-1-/50-9042

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post #30351 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
What we did in RMK's system was use DSP sevice with extra inputs that allows us to hook up the the subwoofer outputs and then route the signal to his Noesis 215RTs. With this setup all you have to do was adjust the subwoofer level right in your receiver just like if you had subwoofers. I would think even the MiniDSP 88A would allow this. To go even simpler you could just get a small, high quality mixer to integrate your subwoofer outputs with your mains. The easiest would be to just buy a few stereo to mono converters. You'll need one per speaker. For the left speaker, hook up the left output from your receiver to the left input of the convert, sub out to the right input. For the right speaker, hook up the right output from your receiver to the left input of the convert, sub out to the left input.


Some ideas:
1) http://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a


2) http://www.fullcompass.com/product/2...FYcCaQodqUgC6g


3) http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...SMC-1-/50-9042
Thanks Jeff, this is exactly what I was hoping for sir. I need to be able to wrap my head around something with complete understanding before I move forward in anything, sometimes it's a hassle but I know how my mind works, once again thank you kindly.
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post #30352 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 04:50 PM
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That was a very entertaining thread. I would not want to live below that guy, but as he is using what looks to be a HTIB for sounds perhaps it's not to bad. I am picturing @carp living in a NYC apt right now.
I HATED apartment life. Before we got this house 13 years ago we were in an apt. and I still had these from my college days:



I do not miss that feeling of knowing you are bothering people even though you are keeping the volume wayyy below what you really want.
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post #30353 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 05:51 PM
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Tailoring the bass on the fly for personal preference, for me this has been my main concern potentially holding me back from 215RT's. With my OS in the rear of my HT room and the (2) subs in the fronstage all running through my Marantz AV7702 all I have to do is pop up the menu then go to levels, scroll down to subs and I can adjust them all simultaneously up or down from my remote control, super easy. What specifically are you using to do this "on the fly"? Can you control it with a remote? Please let me know thanks.
I made a video but when I uploaded it to youtube it was in low definintion and you couldn't see anything... oh well..

Anyway, I use the inuke dsp on my laptop. I can adjust how steep of a house curve I want, how much mid bass boost, low bass boost, and everything in between. My laptop is remote desktop controlling my PC that is in the next room and is connected to the inuke dsp amp. While I listen to music I can make any changes I want on the fly. I don't do that for movies, for movies I use my subs and just adjust the sub trim on the avr like you were talking about.
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post #30354 of 30542 Old 07-19-2015, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I made a video but when I uploaded it to youtube it was in low definintion and you couldn't see anything... oh well..

Anyway, I use the inuke dsp on my laptop. I can adjust how steep of a house curve I want, how much mid bass boost, low bass boost, and everything in between. My laptop is remote desktop controlling my PC that is in the next room and is connected to the inuke dsp amp. While I listen to music I can make any changes I want on the fly. I don't do that for movies, for movies I use my subs and just adjust the sub trim on the avr like you were talking about.
Ahhhhh, now I understand how you are controlling it, there was a huge question mark in my mind as to how you were adjusting your bass levels. Thanks for the clarification sir. I will have to download the inuke amp .pdf file so I can look at the process. Thanks anyways for attempting the you tube video.
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post #30355 of 30542 Old 07-20-2015, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I HATED apartment life. Before we got this house 13 years ago we were in an apt. and I still had these from my college days:



I do not miss that feeling of knowing you are bothering people even though you are keeping the volume wayyy below what you really want.
Holy cow - that photo brings back memories! I had those same Cerwin Vega speakers! Was driving them with a Hafler 220. Man did that system crank. Many a college party in 1986 and 1987 where those puppies were singing.
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post #30356 of 30542 Old 07-20-2015, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
What we did in RMK's system was use DSP sevice with extra inputs that allows us to hook up the the subwoofer outputs and then route the signal to his Noesis 215RTs. With this setup all you have to do was adjust the subwoofer level right in your receiver just like if you had subwoofers. I would think even the MiniDSP 88A would allow this. To go even simpler you could just get a small, high quality mixer to integrate your subwoofer outputs with your mains. The easiest would be to just buy a few stereo to mono converters. You'll need one per speaker. For the left speaker, hook up the left output from your receiver to the left input of the convert, sub out to the right input. For the right speaker, hook up the right output from your receiver to the left input of the convert, sub out to the left input.
A picture being worth a thousand words:



Rane RPM-88 Multiprocessor:
The two LFE signals were routed to a Crossover (LP), a Mixer to combine the LFE output to the LCR's , a PEQ and then finally another crossover for the application of an HP filter.

I found that removing the Rane and running the LCR 215RT full range was preferable. The Rane is a pro-audio unit always on with a very loud fan. It also required a lot of custom Euroblock balanced to XLR connectors which I made up from standard XLR connectors. With the current simplified setup, I can do everything I want for great sound. The only thing I feel I am missing is the HP filter and that just means being careful with the volume and I am. If and when there is an 3D sound capable SSP with Dirac I'm in but for the time being I'm good.

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post #30357 of 30542 Old 07-20-2015, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I HATED apartment life. Before we got this house 13 years ago we were in an apt. and I still had these from my college days:



I do not miss that feeling of knowing you are bothering people even though you are keeping the volume wayyy below what you really want.
Real Vega's, NICE!! I guess Cerwin Vega had their time in the 80's and 90's. A friend who I use to party with had a top of the line pair of Vega's and back then even though I did not own much equipment, I was still an audiophile and I never much liked Cerwin Vega's. They had plenty of lows, but they just did not have those clean highs I listened for. They were still a great speaker and don't get me wrong, they still sounded pretty good, but they always seemed to be lacking something, maybe in the midrange? I don't know, maybe you can comment Carp? As for apartment life, I lived in 3 apartments and they were all very cool! One was bay front and I raised hell in that joint for 5 years, no problems. I was sad the day the owner sold it and I had to move. I actually wanted to buy it and if I knew now what it would have been worth, I would have begged borrowed and stole to buy it! I could have bought that place for $180K and I could have sold a few years later for 7 figures! The other two were actually homes with no neighbors. It figures I buy a home and now the cops come WTF!

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post #30358 of 30542 Old 07-20-2015, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
A picture being worth a thousand words:



Rane RPM-88 Multiprocessor:
The two LFE signals were routed to a Crossover (LP), a Mixer to combine the LFE output to the LCR's , a PEQ and then finally another crossover for the application of an HP filter.

I found that removing the Rane and running the LCR 215RT full range was preferable. The Rane is a pro-audio unit always on with a very loud fan. It also required a lot of custom Euroblock balanced to XLR connectors which I made up from standard XLR connectors. With the current simplified setup, I can do everything I want for great sound. The only thing I feel I am missing is the HP filter and that just means being careful with the volume and I am. If and when there is an 3D sound capable SSP with Dirac I'm in but for the time being I'm good.
WOW RMK that picture does tell the story sir! Removing the Rane how do you bump the bass levels? Do you leave them running flat now? I thought about this but I am always tinkering with the sub(s) up or down based on my preferences so that's why I am curious as to what you are doing.
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post #30359 of 30542 Old 07-20-2015, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
WOW RMK that picture does tell the story sir! Removing the Rane how do you bump the bass levels? Do you leave them running flat now? I thought about this but I am always tinkering with the sub(s) up or down based on my preferences so that's why I am curious as to what you are doing.
My speakers are all level matched and any boost in the LFE is due to room gain. I don't feel the need to boost:
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post #30360 of 30542 Old 07-20-2015, 01:38 PM
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But where is your LFE channel going now? Nowhere?

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