Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1015 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #30421 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I might have misunderstood it but it sounded like he was saying diverge from the pro plan and listen to subjective forum opinion that's proven to be quite dishonest with regards to sound quality. If I misunderstood that, my apology.

I'm big on speaker measurements. I'm big on matching the speaker to the application. You can't do that intelligently by buying whatever speaker is hot at the moment and based on subjective user opinions. It's a passionate subject for me.

desertdome was spot on, last sentence only and with a touch of sarcasm.
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post #30422 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
The target in Dirac was probably made with too much change above 300-400 Hz. However, the averaging algorithm used by Dirac with multiple measurement also makes any target uncertain as to what is really being changed. The change may be correction for some people and incorrection for others, but probably does better than Audyssey.

Gold-line's EZtune software for TEF would actually tell you what was and wasn't equalizable.
http://www.gold-line.com/tef/t-eztune.htm
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post #30423 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Dirac definitely changed the sound of the M2's in my room. What I discovered, after listening to a live intimate performance of a singer and then listening to the same songs on my M2's in my room within 30 minutes, is that the M2's had more realism and timbre accuracy with Dirac off. Again proving that even Dirac, as good as it is, is still EQ'ing things that shouldn't be EQ'd.

This directly relates to the circle of confusion Toole discusses.
I've been spending a lot of time in the 88a thread (so much so, I feel like I'm cheating on you guys ) but I did read your initial impressions and that of others and not one person had anything but positives to say about Dirac. I didn't know (or haven't made it far enough into the thread to hear) that you prefer it off in some instances.


How can you not be intrigued by a device that get almost unanimous positive reviews and says it will provide the following:


Improved imaging
Improved clarity of music and dialog
Produce a tighter bass
Reduce listening fatigue
Remove resonance and room modes.


I wish I could experiment with this for less than 1k but consider what I've already spent (as we all have) and this device seems like a bargain if it provides any of the above because the room has the biggest effect on what we hear and I know my room isn't perfect. Again....what is it that we chase and how do you know if you get it?


So Gooddoc, do you still have the 88a in your system or have you removed it or do you use it occassionaly?

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post #30424 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
The target in Dirac was probably made with too much change above 300-400 Hz. However, the averaging algorithm used by Dirac with multiple measurement also makes any target uncertain as to what is really being changed. The change may be correction for some people and incorrection for others, but probably does better than Audyssey.
I have screens of the FR and Dirac corrections made. I have a measured dip at the LP in my room from around 500 Hz or so to about 1800 Hz or so. I tried unsuccessfully to correct it with on board PEQ for many months (I could correct the measured dip but SQ was not as good). Audyssey has other issues on the top end that made it unacceptable, so I was hoping Dirac could make the correction without screwing up the top end. It did that. It didn't improve the top end, but it didn't degrade it like Audyssey did.
But in trying to correct that very same dip that I was trying to correct for with PEQ is where things go wrong. Dirac corrects it and flattens the FR in that region as I was trying to do and, admittedly did a far better job than I could with PEQ. Without a proper reference to what things should sound like I actually thought that Dirac had corrected the dip and did it without negative consequences. But when I concentrated on the sonic signature of the live performance for the very purpose of comparing to my system I found out that Dirac correction resulted in a sound that was not as realistic as with it disabled. So disabled it remains. I will likely correct below Schroeder with it though. The rest of my Dirac curve above Schroeder pretty much matches the native M2 response as no real curve correction is needed above 2 kHz in my room. It's quite flat with a gentle rolloff starting a little after 10 KHz.

Now sure, I could create a curve that matches the dip, but at that point I would have a Dirac correction that did nothing, so why bother?
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post #30425 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
I've been spending a lot of time in the 88a thread (so much so, I feel like I'm cheating on you guys ) but I did read your initial impressions and that of others and not one person had anything but positives to say about Dirac. I didn't know (or haven't made it far enough into the thread to hear) that you prefer it off in some instances.


How can you not be intrigued by a device that get almost unanimous positive reviews and says it will provide the following:


Improved imaging
Improved clarity of music and dialog
Produce a tighter bass
Reduce listening fatigue
Remove resonance and room modes.


I wish I could experiment with this for less than 1k but consider what I've already spent (as we all have) and this device seems like a bargain if it provides any of the above because the room has the biggest effect on what we hear and I know my room isn't perfect. Again....what is it that we chase and how do you know if you get it?


So Gooddoc, do you still have the 88a in your system or have you removed it or do you use it occassionaly?
It's still in the chain, but its just disabled. I have four JBL 708i's on the way and I'll be wanting to equalize the room for movies. I just intend to use the 88A for below Schroeder on the M2's when I EQ the rest of the speakers for movies with Dirac. I'm not nearly as critical of the sound with movies as I am in stereo.
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post #30426 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
It's still in the chain, but its just disabled. I have four JBL 708i's on the way and I'll be wanting to equalize the room for movies. I just intend to use the 88A for below Schroeder on the M2's when I EQ the rest of the speakers for movies with Dirac. I'm not nearly as critical of the sound with movies as I am in stereo.
I can understand that as my preference (in my room) is movies and I think I want to give Dirac a try.

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post #30427 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
. . . I wish I could experiment with this for less than 1k but consider what I've already spent (as we all have) and this device seems like a bargain if it provides any of the above because the room has the biggest effect on what we hear and I know my room isn't perfect. . .
I have a solution for you if you are willing to jump through some hoops.

I was curious like you, and too cheap to make the investment on a whim. So I downloaded the software version of Dirac for Mac. You can get a free trial (I think it's 14 days).

If you have content on your computer, it's definitely worth a try. If not, may not be worth the trouble.

But I can tell you that's what sold me on it. Was one of the major drivers for me to later take the leap and buy the Emotiva XMC-1.
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post #30428 of 31185 Unread 07-23-2015, 08:37 PM
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But when I concentrated on the sonic signature of the live performance for the very purpose of comparing to my system I found out that Dirac correction resulted in a sound that was not as realistic as with it disabled. So disabled it remains.
I think I know what you're talking about.
Dirac enabled does sound more clinical - more like listening to headphones, less like the band is playing in your room.
It actually depends on the recording.
If it's a lively recording, it will sound like you're in a different room with the band, but if it's a studio recording, correcting the room can reduce the ambience.

Personally, I prefer the more pure & clinical sound.
Some people prefer more ambience, particularly from certain speakers that do that well.

That said, below Schroeder, everything should be min-phase, so I'm not sure Dirac would have an advantage over a standard MiniDSP. It still does below Schroeder well, though...much better than some (Audyssey).
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post #30429 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 04:48 AM
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Is anyone else looking forward to this release? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1398426/

I can't wait to hear what the 212s can do with this soundtrack!!!

Chris
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post #30430 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 06:18 AM
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Is anyone else looking forward to this release? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1398426/

I can't wait to hear what the 212s can do with this soundtrack!!!
I've been waiting for it since its announcement! LOVE NWA
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post #30431 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 07:27 AM
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You will enjoy the 103D Reef, I have one and the Darbee does make a difference.I run my Cox cable Contour box through it so I can enjoy the benefits of Darbee with the cable as well
Really? I have the 103D as well and I honestly don't see much if any difference with Darby. It's been a while since I played with it and since most of my HT viewing is Bluray (1080P) content it really has no impact. I have a cable box in the HT but never use it due to poor image quality issues (even HD) and Darby didn't seem to help. I am streaming via Vudu but their HDX content is 1080P so again, Darby not needed. Am I missing something?

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post #30432 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 07:56 AM
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Really? I have the 103D as well and I honestly don't see much if any difference with Darby. It's been a while since I played with it and since most of my HT viewing is Bluray (1080P) content it really has no impact. I have a cable box in the HT but never use it due to poor image quality issues (even HD) and Darby didn't seem to help. I am streaming via Vudu but their HDX content is 1080P so again, Darby not needed. Am I missing something?
Glad it's not just me. I also have a 103D and I have a lot of trouble noticing improvements (at least on Blu-ray). Maybe my eyes aren't discerning enough though.
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post #30433 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 08:55 AM
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Is anyone else looking forward to this release? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1398426/

I can't wait to hear what the 212s can do with this soundtrack!!!
If you are 40 something, you should be looking forward to it. I remember parting and when the NWA and Easy E all hell would break loose! I will not go to the movies to see it, but will check it out when it comes home. I am actually looking more forward to Southpaw.
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post #30434 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 09:01 AM
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TEF
Jeff you use a TEF system ?

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post #30435 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 09:02 AM
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Really? I have the 103D as well and I honestly don't see much if any difference with Darby. It's been a while since I played with it and since most of my HT viewing is Bluray (1080P) content it really has no impact. I have a cable box in the HT but never use it due to poor image quality issues (even HD) and Darby didn't seem to help. I am streaming via Vudu but their HDX content is 1080P so again, Darby not needed. Am I missing something?
I have a new X1 box (Which I hate) in the theater and I never use it either. Such a waste. The only thing I use it for it Eagles games. Love watching my Eagles in the theater! Other than that, I have not touched it in months!
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post #30436 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 10:39 AM
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If you are 40 something, you should be looking forward to it. I remember parting and when the NWA and Easy E all hell would break loose! I will not go to the movies to see it, but will check it out when it comes home. I am actually looking more forward to Southpaw.
Southpaw looks to be Jake G best movie ever. Should be a great flick.

I'm looking forward to the Audio on "Straight Outta Compton". NWA on Blu-Ray is damn near as exciting as the Slayer Blu-Ray was.

Chris
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post #30437 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 11:05 AM
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Really? I have the 103D as well and I honestly don't see much if any difference with Darby. It's been a while since I played with it and since most of my HT viewing is Bluray (1080P) content it really has no impact. I have a cable box in the HT but never use it due to poor image quality issues (even HD) and Darby didn't seem to help. I am streaming via Vudu but their HDX content is 1080P so again, Darby not needed. Am I missing something?
So now we know that Dr. Rob is not an optometrist It does make subtle differences in detail for sure. It is actually pretty clear to me if you bump it up to like 60-70% correction. Most people go more subtle than that with something around 30-40% which is much less noticeable.
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post #30438 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 11:55 AM
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I've been spending a lot of time in the 88a thread (so much so, I feel like I'm cheating on you guys ) but I did read your initial impressions and that of others and not one person had anything but positives to say about Dirac. I didn't know (or haven't made it far enough into the thread to hear) that you prefer it off in some instances.
How can you not be intrigued by a device that get almost unanimous positive reviews and says it will provide the following:

Improved imaging
Improved clarity of music and dialog
Produce a tighter bass
Reduce listening fatigue
Remove resonance and room modes.

I wish I could experiment with this for less than 1k but consider what I've already spent (as we all have) and this device seems like a bargain if it provides any of the above because the room has the biggest effect on what we hear and I know my room isn't perfect. Again....what is it that we chase and how do you know if you get it?

So Gooddoc, do you still have the 88a in your system or have you removed it or do you use it occassionaly?
For 200 less you could wait for imagic's NanoHD>NanoDL review

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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Really? I have the 103D as well and I honestly don't see much if any difference with Darby. It's been a while since I played with it and since most of my HT viewing is Bluray (1080P) content it really has no impact. I have a cable box in the HT but never use it due to poor image quality issues (even HD) and Darby didn't seem to help. I am streaming via Vudu but their HDX content is 1080P so again, Darby not needed. Am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post
Glad it's not just me. I also have a 103D and I have a lot of trouble noticing improvements (at least on Blu-ray). Maybe my eyes aren't discerning enough though.
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
So now we know that Dr. Rob is not an optometrist It does make subtle differences in detail for sure. It is actually pretty clear to me if you bump it up to like 60-70% correction. Most people go more subtle than that with something around 30-40% which is much less noticeable.
I only notice the differences on Blu Ray quality material. It's quite a noticeable one too even at like 30-35%. I think I settled on HD at 45%. Maybe a better PJ makes for less to get better?

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post #30439 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 12:04 PM
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Dirac definitely changed the sound of the M2's in my room. What I discovered, after listening to a live intimate performance of a singer and then listening to the same songs on my M2's in my room within 30 minutes, is that the M2's had more realism and timbre accuracy with Dirac off. Again proving that even Dirac, as good as it is, is still EQ'ing things that shouldn't be EQ'd.

This directly relates to the circle of confusion Toole discusses.
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I have screens of the FR and Dirac corrections made. I have a measured dip at the LP in my room from around 500 Hz or so to about 1800 Hz or so. I tried unsuccessfully to correct it with on board PEQ for many months (I could correct the measured dip but SQ was not as good). Audyssey has other issues on the top end that made it unacceptable, so I was hoping Dirac could make the correction without screwing up the top end. It did that. It didn't improve the top end, but it didn't degrade it like Audyssey did.
But in trying to correct that very same dip that I was trying to correct for with PEQ is where things go wrong. Dirac corrects it and flattens the FR in that region as I was trying to do and, admittedly did a far better job than I could with PEQ. Without a proper reference to what things should sound like I actually thought that Dirac had corrected the dip and did it without negative consequences. But when I concentrated on the sonic signature of the live performance for the very purpose of comparing to my system I found out that Dirac correction resulted in a sound that was not as realistic as with it disabled. So disabled it remains. I will likely correct below Schroeder with it though. The rest of my Dirac curve above Schroeder pretty much matches the native M2 response as no real curve correction is needed above 2 kHz in my room. It's quite flat with a gentle rolloff starting a little after 10 KHz.

Now sure, I could create a curve that matches the dip, but at that point I would have a Dirac correction that did nothing, so why bother?

Without some background on the measurement locations used it's hard to say what was responsible for the changes. I have found with all of the correction systems a bubble in all 3 dimensions is required to keep the system from over-correcting. Related to over-correcting, Dirac has two very useful adjustments in the ability to slide the range of correction while visually indicating the result, along with the ability to modify the target curve with an overlay of the averaged response being processed. With some consideration of why some dips or peaks may be in the measurement, you have the ability to tell Dirac not to correct a range by simply making the curve track the measurement. I have found this to be required for some upper frequency dips which might be balanced by off axis energy or with situations like a floor bounce which can sound peculiar if overly corrected for electronically. Fortunately the full version of Dirac gives you enough information and flexibility to best use the measurements you feed into it.

The part I find many don't experiment with enough are the measurement locations. The software can only work with what you give it.
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post #30440 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 12:21 PM
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Without some background on the measurement locations used it's hard to say what was responsible for the changes. I have found with all of the correction systems a bubble in all 3 dimensions is required to keep the system from over-correcting. Related to over-correcting, Dirac has two very useful adjustments in the ability to slide the range of correction while visually indicating the result, along with the ability to modify the target curve with an overlay of the averaged response being processed. With some consideration of why some dips or peaks may be in the measurement, you have the ability to tell Dirac not to correct a range by simply making the curve track the measurement. I have found this to be required for some upper frequency dips which might be balanced by off axis energy or with situations like a floor bounce which can sound peculiar if overly corrected for electronically. Fortunately the full version of Dirac gives you enough information and flexibility to best use the measurements you feed into it.

The part I find many don't experiment with enough are the measurement locations. The software can only work with what you give it.
There has been lots of discussion on this very topic in the 88a thread. Dirac wants 9 measurments (the first being the most important) over the listening area but it also wants those measurements varied in height as well and this topic has generated lots of discussion.

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post #30441 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 12:25 PM
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For 200 less you could wait for imagic's NanoHD>NanoDL review
I looked at the Nano previously but I like the implementation of the 88a better...meaning where it fits in the signal chain.

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post #30442 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 12:38 PM
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So now we know that Dr. Rob is not an optometrist It does make subtle differences in detail for sure. It is actually pretty clear to me if you bump it up to like 60-70% correction. Most people go more subtle than that with something around 30-40% which is much less noticeable.


Must be my eyes because subtle differences at best was my take. I was hoping for better with 720P (Cable HD) but with a 138" screen, no cigar.

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post #30443 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 01:40 PM
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There has been lots of discussion on this very topic in the 88a thread. Dirac wants 9 measurments (the first being the most important) over the listening area but it also wants those measurements varied in height as well and this topic has generated lots of discussion.
In my experience and opinion, taking a few measurements at different heights is critical. They trick is to first play some pink noise and stick your ears in those locations to insure with some speakers you didn't just move out of the high frequency pattern. If you get too huge a change with higher or lower position it can skew things, but even +/-6" is much better than all at the same height. Consider that if the measurement height stays the same, most of the floor, ceiling and vertical dispersion variations will remain the same. These are factors you want to average over a listening bubble where you move your head and normal variation for shorter or taller seated listeners.
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post #30444 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 01:57 PM
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Without some background on the measurement locations used it's hard to say what was responsible for the changes. I have found with all of the correction systems a bubble in all 3 dimensions is required to keep the system from over-correcting. Related to over-correcting, Dirac has two very useful adjustments in the ability to slide the range of correction while visually indicating the result, along with the ability to modify the target curve with an overlay of the averaged response being processed. With some consideration of why some dips or peaks may be in the measurement, you have the ability to tell Dirac not to correct a range by simply making the curve track the measurement. I have found this to be required for some upper frequency dips which might be balanced by off axis energy or with situations like a floor bounce which can sound peculiar if overly corrected for electronically. Fortunately the full version of Dirac gives you enough information and flexibility to best use the measurements you feed into it.

The part I find many don't experiment with enough are the measurement locations. The software can only work with what you give it.
Thanks Mark. Yeah, following these posts I've been thinking I'll just shape the curve to the FR in Dirac. I was just thinking that it's kinda silly to use Dirac if its not correcting my dip. But thinking about it more and reading your post the light bulb went off and it finally got through my thick skull that if it shouldn't be corrected I need to "tell" Dirac that by shaping the correction to match the dip.
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post #30445 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Is anyone else looking forward to this release? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1398426/

I can't wait to hear what the 212s can do with this soundtrack!!!
I continue to drool over my Triple 12's playing music daily.


With Dre and Cube working on it, its gonna be good. Suge landed in jail because of this movie, kharmas a bitch, Dre has to be lovin that.


Dre wasn't always gangsta if you didn't know


http://www.discogs.com/artist/1458-W...ss-Wreckin-Cru
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post #30446 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gorilla Killa View Post
I continue to drool over my Triple 12's playing music daily.


With Dre and Cube working on it, its gonna be good. Suge landed in jail because of this movie, kharmas a bitch, Dre has to be lovin that.


Dre wasn't always gangsta if you didn't know


http://www.discogs.com/artist/1458-W...ss-Wreckin-Cru
No. He was the LEAST gangsta of all of them

And eazy-e could NOT RAP he has to speak each line seperatly and they had to patch it together lol
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post #30447 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Thanks Mark. Yeah, following these posts I've been thinking I'll just shape the curve to the FR in Dirac. I was just thinking that it's kinda silly to use Dirac if its not correcting my dip. But thinking about it more and reading your post the light bulb went off and it finally got through my thick skull that if it shouldn't be corrected I need to "tell" Dirac that by shaping the correction to match the dip.
Doc, in my experience this is exactly right. I have done the same thing with Dirac. I love the native speaker response of the 212HT in my room but even when I follow the same FR, the improvements in IR are huge and confirmed post dirac with REW measurements!

RMK I agree Dirac is a solution looking for a problem, and in most rooms it will find it!
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post #30448 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Really? I have the 103D as well and I honestly don't see much if any difference with Darby. It's been a while since I played with it and since most of my HT viewing is Bluray (1080P) content it really has no impact. I have a cable box in the HT but never use it due to poor image quality issues (even HD) and Darby didn't seem to help. I am streaming via Vudu but their HDX content is 1080P so again, Darby not needed. Am I missing something?
For me, I am very happy knowing that I am seeing any little bit of extra detail I can get. With cable 1080P and doing a side by side demo I can definitely tell a difference and it's in the details. It's not the difference that they show it is for sure but there is a noticeable difference. Probably a bigger difference with cable 1080P versus Blu-ray.
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post #30449 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
So now we know that Dr. Rob is not an optometrist It does make subtle differences in detail for sure. It is actually pretty clear to me if you bump it up to like 60-70% correction. Most people go more subtle than that with something around 30-40% which is much less noticeable.
I have mine set at exactly at 70% as you mention Beast and at that level there is a noticeable difference to my eyes.
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post #30450 of 31185 Unread 07-24-2015, 07:44 PM
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On the topic of Dirac and target curves would some of you care to post some before and after measurements from REW/OM of what Dirac did and more importantly what curve did you settle on after multiple sessions of tweaking?
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