Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1024 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-15-2015, 02:50 PM
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Interesting discussion. I have taken Tooles courses a couple of times at Cedia. Interesting and i think there isn't much marketing in them. However, Toole and Olive do not design and engineer speakers. One thing that is interesting to me is that when the actual Harman engineers do post on AVS or other forums they tend to use the research as verification of their design goals rather than the other way around. Indeed there seems to be a slight undercurrent of "setting the record straight" in the posts. That was especially true when Kevin Voecks role in the Revel line was clarified. That being that he is not the designer or engineer but more involved in marketing.
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Old 08-15-2015, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'm mostly talking speakers, the room dominates the discussion for bass. I don't see a problem with sub measuements as much because with subs you don't worry about off axis performance or total sound power. Speaker measurements and room design andtreatment kind of go hand in hand
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
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Since you’re so interested in “off axis performance or total sound power”, I’m surprised you posted this data but I’ll go ahead and use this data as an example to explain some basic physics as it applies to audio.

If you look at the Beamwidth graph (top, right, mislabeled “Bandwidth”) than you’ll see there are some interesting things going on. The vertical directivity goes all the way down to 45ish degrees at about 630hz (crossover point of the active versions).This is because of the distance between the acoustical centers of the horn and the woofers. The lower woofer’s center is probably near 36 inches away from the center of the horn. Passive this will cause a downward tilting lobe. Plus loss in intelligibility due to smearing that occurs from the multiple sound arrivals, sound from the top woofer followed by sound from the lower woofer. If you were to put a microphone 1m in front of the speaker and centered on the horn than this is easy to see in a “group delay” measurement, woofers being milliseconds behind the horn. You could tri amp the cabinet and use DSP to delay the drivers and get a good on axis response however the off axis isn’t fixable.

Here is the group delay of the 2014 Noesis 228HT (2015 even better yet) with the microphone 1m away and centered on the horn:


Back to the beamwidth graph. Then within the horn’s frequency range the directivity in the vertical shoots up to 80 degrees while the horizontal remains normal. This is because this horn losses its directivity in the vertical axis much sooner than in the horizontal. This happens because this is an asymmetrical horn (rectangle). If you measure the distance from this horn’s throat to the center of the month on the vertical (top or bottom) and then measure the distance from the horn’s throat to the center of the month on the horizontal (left or right) than you’ll notice the that the horn is longer in the horizontal plane. This causes the horn to have more directivity in the horizontal.

The horn’s we use have symmetrical months plus we use much lower crossover points for the best off axis and power response.


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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
With speaker measurements it isn't usually a matter of fabricated curves, but rather omission of measurement conditions and details. Measurement axis, distance, acoustic conditions, gating and of course smoothing all are factors. Was any processing/EQ used in the measurement? It's actually fairly tedious to simply "generate" a curve that looks real apart from manually editing 1-2peaks or dips. Most of the graphic manipulation comes from a fat marker/lineweight and compression of the vertical axis. Beware those 10-20dB/division graphs!
Where the microphone is relative to the speaker is extremely important (centered on the horn or the cabinet or ???) but never listed.
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Old 08-15-2015, 05:19 PM
 
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You guys seem to be making my case for me in a round about kind of way.

There should be standardized accurate measurments.
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Old 08-15-2015, 05:32 PM
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Actually, I was thinking the opposite since so many people don't understand the data and/or misinterpret it.


We will be sending speakers out to ETC INC for GLL and CLF testing.
http://www.etcinc.us/


Here is a link for a free CLF viewer:
http://www.clfgroup.org/viewer.htm
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Old 08-16-2015, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Actually, I was thinking the opposite since so many people don't understand the data and/or misinterpret it.


We will be sending speakers out to ETC INC for GLL and CLF testing.
http://www.etcinc.us/


Here is a link for a free CLF viewer:
http://www.clfgroup.org/viewer.htm
That's good of you to do this for everyone Jeff, but for me the proof is in the pudding.
Pretty graphs have no bearing on my speaker choice, unless done by a 3rd party like you are doing its all marketing influenced. You see this with computer products all the time, 1 billion xyz's per second... *with this and that and a 10m dollar system, in a sub zero chamber on the night before the full moon after that latest solar storm.
It all about what gets the job done to your needs.

*This said as a nerd who loves pretty graphs =)
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Old 08-16-2015, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
you use less power on the mains as you raise the external speaker to subwoofer AVR crossover (think of it more as an HPF) - that's about the only difference

If you think through this scenario - woofer sensitivity couldn't change or the accompanying 'tweeter' or 'cd' would no longer be matched in SPL and your frequency response would change across the entire woofer passband - that doesn't happen with the AVR crossover --- again that functions more like an high pass filter in relation strictly to the speaker - yes it's redirecting the bass frequencies to the sub, but it effects the speaker in the same way a gentle slope HPF would.

However, you can change the efficiency of the setup in your passive woofer to CD crossover, part of which may be based on the amount of padding you use - so that's what Jeff is referring to I think.

I'm an amatuer for sure, but as I understand it, as you make a woofer play lower in a larger vented box you definately lose some of the upper frequency SPL for the sake of adding that lower frequency capability.
This can be seen easily enough when modeling subwoofer drivers with winisdpro. So then you either have to pad your compression driver to lower the output, or chose a different one to match the lowered sensitivity of the woofer. So he's using the same compression driver in the 210RT that's in the 212HTR, but because he's having the woofers play lower he's loosing SPL in that process of matching the ported cabinet to the woofer capability, and so he has to lower the output of the compression driver to match. (all relative to the 212HTR)

If I messed something up in that explanation someone feel free to correct me.
So basically the woofer has an efficient frequency range, push it down below that range a little and it's a give and take situation, steal from the top to feed the bottom with an efficiency tax.

The smaller cabinet of the 210rm doesn't go as low as the larger cabinet of the 210rt, is it 100% cabinet size that dictates this or is there also a hpf for the woofers in the 210rm?

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Old 08-16-2015, 08:31 AM
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Sealed vs. Ported

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February 2017 - Kansas City Home Theater Crawl
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Old 08-16-2015, 08:34 AM
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Ah, missed that, I was just looking at cab size only.

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Old 08-16-2015, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by theblackangus View Post
That's good of you to do this for everyone Jeff, but for me the proof is in the pudding.
Pretty graphs have no bearing on my speaker choice, unless done by a 3rd party like you are doing its all marketing influenced. You see this with computer products all the time, 1 billion xyz's per second... *with this and that and a 10m dollar system, in a sub zero chamber on the night before the full moon after that latest solar storm.
It all about what gets the job done to your needs.

*This said as a nerd who loves pretty graphs =)
Of course I'm with you on the in-home, personal experience of a loudspeaker being the final and most important determinant factor. A good move by Jeff to provide this information but I have to wonder if this 3rd party testing will satisfy the more voracious pursuers of audio truth.

Had some first timers over for a dinner/movie night last night and used some tracks off of the Atmos Demo (Amaze and Bailando) and then John Wick for the umteenth time. Wife and I sat in the back row conceding the "sweet spot" to our guests and were surprised how good the Atmos audio sounded from this position. I may be Atmos's at homes biggest fan and continue to believe that it makes a significant difference in that sense of being in the movie experience. Besides being the best revenge movie ever, John Wick has a great musical score and outside of the Atmos/Auro demo disks, provides the best example of 3D audio I have heard. I hope there are more Atmos titles to come but even if the format does not catch on, having ceiling speakers and using DSU is still worth the toll. IMHO
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:13 PM
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Of course I'm with you on the in-home, personal experience of a loudspeaker being the final and most important determinant factor. A good move by Jeff to provide this information but I have to wonder if this 3rd party testing will satisfy the more voracious pursuers of audio truth.

Had some first timers over for a dinner/movie night last night and used some tracks off of the Atmos Demo (Amaze and Bailando) and then John Wick for the umteenth time. Wife and I sat in the back row conceding the "sweet spot" to our guests and were surprised how good the Atmos audio sounded from this position. I may be Atmos's at homes biggest fan and continue to believe that it makes a significant difference in that sense of being in the movie experience. Besides being the best revenge movie ever, John Wick has a great musical score and outside of the Atmos/Auro demo disks, provides the best example of 3D audio I have heard. I hope there are more Atmos titles to come but even if the format does not catch on, having ceiling speakers and using DSU is still worth the toll. IMHO
I don't have Atmos yet but that Amaze trailer sounds good without Atmos....I can only imagine how good it sounds with.

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Old 08-16-2015, 03:10 PM
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Of course I'm with you on the in-home, personal experience of a loudspeaker being the final and most important determinant factor. A good move by Jeff to provide this information but I have to wonder if this 3rd party testing will satisfy the more voracious pursuers of audio truth.

Had some first timers over for a dinner/movie night last night and used some tracks off of the Atmos Demo (Amaze and Bailando) and then John Wick for the umteenth time. Wife and I sat in the back row conceding the "sweet spot" to our guests and were surprised how good the Atmos audio sounded from this position. I may be Atmos's at homes biggest fan and continue to believe that it makes a significant difference in that sense of being in the movie experience. Besides being the best revenge movie ever, John Wick has a great musical score and outside of the Atmos/Auro demo disks, provides the best example of 3D audio I have heard. I hope there are more Atmos titles to come but even if the format does not catch on, having ceiling speakers and using DSU is still worth the toll. IMHO
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I don't have Atmos yet but that Amaze trailers sounds good without Atmos....I can only imagine how good it sounds with.
The proof is in the numerous who rave about the added effects. Many i trust here on AVS say its the single biggest advancement in HT since stereo to 5.1 in the face of those who think it's a "HD-DVD" type of fad. That adding overheads takes it to another level. I plan to wire for Atmos in my room build but it will be an upgrade down the road as there will be expenses of many
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Old 08-16-2015, 03:12 PM
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I know a few of you here have gone with some JBL surrounds. Either SCS8's or 8350's or 8320's? Can't remember which models. I am interested in how they compare to the S8 and or the Volt coaxial series speakers on surround duty.
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Old 08-16-2015, 04:46 PM
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I don't have Atmos yet but that Amaze trailer sounds good without Atmos....I can only imagine how good it sounds with.
In all honesty, after the demo at RMK's, the ATMOS experience I say is a must have. Especially all the new movies is out with ATMOS. I have John Wick, Insergent, and while the bass in my system is just plain crazy I know I'm missing the whole experience when I drop those disk in. It may sound great with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 setup. But not even close to the enveloping sound of ATMOS..
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Old 08-16-2015, 06:09 PM
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In all honesty, after the demo at RMK's, the ATMOS experience I say is a must have. Especially all the new movies is out with ATMOS. I have John Wick, Insergent, and while the bass in my system is just plain crazy I know I'm missing the whole experience when I drop those disk in. It may sound great with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 setup. But not even close to the enveloping sound of ATMOS..
Yea I prob should just get what I can now for my Denon 4520 then snag an Atmos capable AVR down the road as it will be a good while before I need an AVR.
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Old 08-16-2015, 06:26 PM
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The proof is in the numerous who rave about the added effects. Many i trust here on AVS say its the single biggest advancement in HT since stereo to 5.1 in the face of those who think it's a "HD-DVD" type of fad. That adding overheads takes it to another level. I plan to wire for Atmos in my room build but it will be an upgrade down the road as there will be expenses of many
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In all honesty, after the demo at RMK's, the ATMOS experience I say is a must have. Especially all the new movies is out with ATMOS. I have John Wick, Insergent, and while the bass in my system is just plain crazy I know I'm missing the whole experience when I drop those disk in. It may sound great with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 setup. But not even close to the enveloping sound of ATMOS..
I'm in agreement with both of you. That's what I was trying to say, that if it sounds pretty good in 7.1 I can only imagine how fantastic it sounds in true Atmos. I've never heard a properly tuned Atmos system (I did hear one at Best Buy but don't get me started on that) but I will once I make the move next year. If Jeff doesn't come out with something specific for Atmos, I'll move my Slanted 8's up to the ceiling and replace them with Single 8HT's or LP's....at least that's what I think now...who knows next year but I'm staying 7.1.4 in all JTR.

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Old 08-16-2015, 06:33 PM
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In all honesty, after the demo at RMK's, the ATMOS experience I say is a must have. Especially all the new movies is out with ATMOS. I have John Wick, Insergent, and while the bass in my system is just plain crazy I know I'm missing the whole experience when I drop those disk in. It may sound great with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 setup. But not even close to the enveloping sound of ATMOS..
I really hate to be in the position of pushing a technology, but there really is a there there with Atmos/DSU. I'm anxiously waiting for a processor upgrade that will allow me to run AuroMatic in 11 channel mode. It was the more impressive technology based upon a correct setup and with DTS:X just around the corner, there will be 3 height channel up-mixing formats to experiment with. Those of you that are building now and wiring for heights are wise to do so IMHO.

Regarding the JBL surrounds vs the S8's, I like that I can set the 8340a' to 60hz as the height channel information can be more full frequency. Little in-ceiling speakers would not cut it for me but if the cost were close or the same I would have the S8's for timbre matching and output capability. Audyssey would regularly set my Slanted 8 height channels to 60hz so I know they are capable of that type of extension with some boundary gain.
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Old 08-16-2015, 08:13 PM
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I really hate to be in the position of pushing a technology, but there really is a there there with Atmos/DSU. I anxiously waiting for a processor upgrade that will allow me to run AuroMatic in 11 channel mode. It was the more impressive technology based upon a correct setup and with DTS:X just around the corner, there will be 3 height channel up-mixing formats to experiment with. Those of you that are building now and wiring for heights are wise to do so in IMHO.

Regarding the JBL surrounds vs the S8's, I like that I can set the 8340a' to 60hz as the height channel information can be full frequency. Little in-ceiling speakers would not cut it for me but if the cost were close or the same I would have the S8's for timbre matching and output capability. Audyssey would regularly set my Slanted 8 height channels to 60hz so I know they are capable of that type of extension with some boundary gain.
Ok, so you have a set of 8340's. I thought you had a pair you had tried out and decided to keep around. For me it's a cost factor. Certainly we all know S8's are as capable surround you can get without going to a full range speaker in those positions. Plus I also remember several saying the Savoy is the best surround experience they ever heard. Now credit to Nyal in his approach to treating the room but certainly the speaker emitting the sound has something to do with it lol!

In your experience would you say a surround playing to 60hz is much more important than say 80hz? I figure if one was to go with any of the three 83xx models then why not go a little more for the bigger speaker for deeper extension. But the weird thing is the smaller 8320 advertises deeper extension! I need to call them and ask some questions. I plan on hiding them in four column we often see in room builds so while I like the thinner 8320 I'm willing to plan around a bigger speaker for better performance. So Audyssey sets your 8340's to 60hz, thats really good to know as the advertise at 75hz for +-3db specs. And yes I do plan to wire for every speaker position possible. Heights, wides, Atmos channels.
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Old 08-17-2015, 08:17 AM
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Ok, so you have a set of 8340's. I thought you had a pair you had tried out and decided to keep around. For me it's a cost factor. Certainly we all know S8's are as capable surround you can get without going to a full range speaker in those positions. Plus I also remember several saying the Savoy is the best surround experience they ever heard. Now credit to Nyal in his approach to treating the room but certainly the speaker emitting the sound has something to do with it lol!

In your experience would you say a surround playing to 60hz is much more important than say 80hz? I figure if one was to go with any of the three 83xx models then why not go a little more for the bigger speaker for deeper extension. But the weird thing is the smaller 8320 advertises deeper extension! I need to call them and ask some questions. I plan on hiding them in four column we often see in room builds so while I like the thinner 8320 I'm willing to plan around a bigger speaker for better performance. So Audyssey sets your 8340's to 60hz, thats really good to know as the advertise at 75hz for +-3db specs. And yes I do plan to wire for every speaker position possible. Heights, wides, Atmos channels.
I think the heights carry more full range information than the typical surround speaker when using the Atmos/Auro tracks (the thunder in the Atmos Amaze demo is a good example). I assume DTS:X will be the same so yes, I feel there is an advantage in having ceiling mounted speakers capable of 50-60hz. I have played just the ceiling speakers using DSU, AuroMatic, Atmos and Auro audio so my observation about lower frequency content going to the heights is more than anecdotal although I did not take measurements. One thing about my move to 3D ceiling mounted speakers that surprised me was the initial setup was 5.4 and at first I thought the surrounds backs that I had before the "upgrade" were not missed. But after living with the config for a while I decided to order another pair of slanted 8's as surround backs and I am happy I did. There was a noticeable hole in the sound field without the surround back speakers. Room dimensions will dictate this and having 9'ceilings really helps with ceiling speakers but I think 8' would be adequate in most situations with reasonably shallow depth and wide dispersion speakers (coax).

As I said, Audyssey usually set my Slanted 8 Height speakers to 60hz and does the same for the JBL's. Since I paid less for the 4 JBL's (screaming deal used) than a single S8 and the JBL has that 10" woofer it was worth taking the chance. I would prefer having all JTR speakers but the compromise I made by "cheaping out" on the ceiling speakers seems to be working out fine.

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Old 08-17-2015, 09:22 AM
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I think the heights carry more full range information than the typical surround speaker when using the Atmos/Auro tracks (the thunder in the Atmos Amaze demo is a good example). I assume DTS:X will be the same so yes, I feel there is an advantage in having ceiling mounted speakers capable of 50-60hz. I have played just the ceiling speakers using DSU, AuroMatic, Atmos and Auro audio so my observation about lower frequency content going to the heights is more than anecdotal although I did not take measurements. One thing about my move to 3D ceiling mounted speakers that surprised me was the initial setup was 5.4 and at first I thought the surrounds backs that I had before the "upgrade" were not missed. But after living with the config for a while I decided to order another pair of slanted 8's as surround backs and I am happy I did. There was a noticeable hole in the sound field without the surround back speakers. Room dimensions will dictate this and having 9'ceilings really helps with ceiling speakers but I think 8' would be adequate in most situations with reasonably shallow depth and wide dispersion speakers (coax).

As I said, Audyssey usually set my Slanted 8 Height speakers to 60hz and does the same for the JBL's. Since I paid less for the 4 JBL's (screaming deal used) than a single S8 and the JBL has that 10" woofer it was worth taking the chance. I would prefer having all JTR speakers but the compromise I made by "cheaping out" on the ceiling speakers seems to be working out fine.
Wow, what a deal. That's incredible.

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Old 08-17-2015, 09:32 AM
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Wow, what a deal. That's incredible.
Yes it is! I'm gonna keep my eyes out between now and turn of year. I am expecting quotes back for all 6 models from JBL's Pro Cinema line. 8320, 8340a, 8350, 9320, SCS8 and SCS12. Ideally the 9320 is the badass and I would modify my framing (hasn't been built yet) in my build for a little inset to accept these. Likewise I would an S8 but I'm a budget builder.
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Old 08-17-2015, 01:11 PM
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Wow, what a deal. That's incredible.
Yeah it was a no brainer but I keep wondering if the S8's might be better. I cannot hear differences in the speakers when all 11 are playing but I did hook the JBL and Slanted 8's up to an individual surround channel and played some all channel stereo music through them individually. Doing that convinced me that the JTR's are a cleaner sounding and more volume capable speaker. That is why I bought the Slanted 8's for the surround back speakers.

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Old 08-17-2015, 02:33 PM
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I really hate to bring this topic up again but thought this was a good article to share. The whole science vs subjective debate on sound quality.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content...V38D5pmRMrb.97
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yeah it was a no brainer but I keep wondering if the S8's might be better. I cannot hear differences in the speakers when all 11 are playing but I did hook the JBL and Slanted 8's up to an individual surround channel and played some all channel stereo music through them individually. Doing that convinced me that the JTR's are a cleaner sounding and more volume capable speaker. That is why I bought the Slanted 8's for the surround back speakers.
I wish Jeff would have a sale on the S8's. That would be greatness.
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:48 PM
 
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I really hate to bring this topic up again but thought this was a good article to share. The whole science vs subjective debate on sound quality.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/content...V38D5pmRMrb.97
Interesting read.

The funny thing: When Toole tested that concept (audio reviewers are 70% as good as the author claims) it turns out they are only 20% in reality and actually scored worse than retail sales people.

Repeat:

The audio reviewers scored worse than retail sales people.

Let that sink in for a second. That's when you compare them and their opinions double blind without the room being a factor. It's just reality. There's a lot going on with the psychoacoustic brain/ear relationship too, your judgement or hearing can be impaired by caffiene, blood pressure, stress, alcohol, lack of sleep, even a winter cold. That's why measurements win IMO.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Interesting read.

The funny thing: When Toole tested that concept (audio reviewers are 70% as good as the author claims) it turns out they are only 20% in reality and actually scored worse than retail sales people.

Repeat:

The audio reviewers scored worse than retail sales people.

Let that sink in for a second. That's when you compare them and their opinions double blind without the room being a factor. It's just reality. There's a lot going on with the psychoacoustic brain/ear relationship too, your judgement or hearing can be impaired by caffiene, blood pressure, stress, alcohol, lack of sleep, even a winter cold. That's why measurements win IMO.
I'd bet there are not a ton of people on AVS that put much faith in anything reviews have to say. I for one hate reading anything they say. The words they use to describe sound make me want to go to their home and knock their teeth out... lol

I actually feel awkward reading them since I feel they are making themselves look like complete fools lol.

I used to be apart of the Emotiva forums, they ended up getting Andrew Robinson as the forum marketing guy, as well as some other tool. He's posting reviews in mags for emotive stuff.... while employed there.... like really... His reviews make me feel bad for anyone reading them with all the pure garbage he spews, it's insane how anyone could take that clown seriously...

Measurments win 100% of the time.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:22 PM
 
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One of the interesting discussions on Facebook lately is if audio reviewers should have annual hearing screening tests, and if those results should be accompanied or available with a review?

It's an interesting concept. That's also one of the reasons why you take forum reviews of owners and users with a grain of salt. Aside from an unknown level of hearing, there is an even bigger unknown about experience.

I think as bad as professional reviewers are, normal people are even worse. That's why a lot of big audio companies use trained listeners. They are more accurate and reliable. Phillips has a great audio training program. Harman has a great free program too, the same one they use, available to the public.

There's a great book I got once from the same author that originally did the Master Handbook of acoustics that comes with a CD you can play, and follow along with. That's a good resource too if you can still find it.

With some training you can detect more easily a flaw in a speaker, or a set up. I think I heard a story on here once where Mark Seaton made a comment like it's dead at xxx Hz and sure enough it was true and people were impressed with his acuity. That's just experience (and decent hearing). Just like no one is born knowing math or how to read, hearing is a skill that with training and experience can be improved.

Some ignorant people think it changes how people hear or what they like but that's totally incorrect. All it does it make you understand what you actually are hearing better.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I'd bet there are not a ton of people on AVS that put much faith in anything reviews have to say. I for one hate reading anything they say. The words they use to describe sound make me want to go to their home and knock their teeth out... lol

I actually feel awkward reading them since I feel they are making themselves look like complete fools lol.

I used to be apart of the Emotiva forums, they ended up getting Andrew Robinson as the forum marketing guy, as well as some other tool. He's posting reviews in mags for emotive stuff.... while employed there.... like really... His reviews make me feel bad for anyone reading them with all the pure garbage he spews, it's insane how anyone could take that clown seriously...

Measurments win 100% of the time.
If the first music they play is Diana Krall, I stop reading.

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Old 08-17-2015, 04:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I'd bet there are not a ton of people on AVS that put much faith in anything reviews have to say. I for one hate reading anything they say. The words they use to describe sound make me want to go to their home and knock their teeth out... lol

I actually feel awkward reading them since I feel they are making themselves look like complete fools lol.

I used to be apart of the Emotiva forums, they ended up getting Andrew Robinson as the forum marketing guy, as well as some other tool. He's posting reviews in mags for emotive stuff.... while employed there.... like really... His reviews make me feel bad for anyone reading them with all the pure garbage he spews, it's insane how anyone could take that clown seriously...

Measurments win 100% of the time.
There is an emotional aspect of this stuff so I kind of understand people getting excited, and why people have an enthusiastic honeymoon phase with new purchases.

Having sighted tests, or just using the gear people buy or that they "want" or "think" is good influences opinion, but has no basis at all in terms of sound quality. That's a big part of the stuff that Toole video in the article that was linked above.

That's not even someone intentionally trying to be dishonest. The person is actually trying to be fair and unbiased.

People that work for certain companies or have certain relationships to products and companies and designers will naturally also have a bias.

Toole calls all that crap "nuisance factors"^

They can strongly influence results but have no basis at all in the actual sonic performance is a system or speaker. I never understood why people hate measurements and blind testing so much. Speaker makers are always hesitant to provide measurements and a lot of audio reviewers, audiophiles, and speaker designers are apprehensive about blind testing. And most sad is that the consumer tolerates all of it and continues to do so. Too much attention is paid to subjective reviews, even GTG events always spark controversy. But no one ever wants to discuss the "why" part of things. It's always so black and white. This hobby is far from that.
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Old 08-17-2015, 04:45 PM
 
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I guess because there is a certain "relationship" with music and what we hear. People can swear by numbers and others will say. Wel to me in my room to my ears I loved/hated the sound.

Not to mention people are hearing the room more than anything (in most cases) so for that measurements become less important

Like how some love the klipsch sound and some despise it. The same speaker will measure the same but people love or hate it

With sound imho measurements only paint half the picture with most.
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Old 08-17-2015, 05:07 PM
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Could we maybe start a thread for this kind of discussion outside of the official speaker threads? Meaning both the JTR and behringer threads. I know I am just as guilty as anyone but it has been brought to my attention that this isn't the proper place for it.
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