Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1027 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-19-2015, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Way more fun. I think there's a good reason this is one of the best threads on Avs and talking about everything is one of the biggest. We can all feel free to discuss other things within reason.

So since Rob wants to know what vehicle I've been buying lately, I just bought a 64 impala to restore for my dad, since it's the same exact car (like the actual one he sold) to pay for the wedding for him and my mom 44 years ago. And I got a smoking deal on a 87 grand national with 8700kms on it... So now Ya know Rob!
Nice! six-fo! So you still have the turbo Regal was it?

Also are all of your mountain-o-subs behind you near field?
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Old 08-19-2015, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Way more fun. I think there's a good reason this is one of the best threads on Avs and talking about everything is one of the biggest. We can all feel free to discuss other things within reason.

So since Rob wants to know what vehicle I've been buying lately, I just bought a 64 impala to restore for my dad, since it's the same exact car (like the actual one he sold) to pay for the wedding for him and my mom 44 years ago. And I got a smoking deal on a 87 grand national with 8700kms on it... So now Ya know Rob!

I threw a garret turbo built for the grand national in my 01 mr2 back in the day
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Old 08-19-2015, 11:36 PM
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Sorry to jump off the car topic for a second. But I am jonesing for my JTR fix right about now. I have been jamming out to some music making a pretty lengthy post over in the alternative and songs that sound good thread.

Alternative Music and Songs that Just Sound Good

Yes, I just shamelessly plugged my own thread. However, it's with good cause. I really need some JTR's for music playback. Some of the songs listed I tried out on Carp's 215's and they do sound incredible on them. Enough that I have become an JTR addict.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:31 AM
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@Archaea

here is a study that compares different speakers in different rooms. I don't have a copy of the study, so I can only comment on the summary.

in the regression analysis, the room was an insignificant factor. this doesn't mean that the room didn't alter the sound of each speaker. it simply means that the same speaker preferences were present regardless of room.

it is always possible that he just didn't pick the right room to change the rank order speaker preferences, but that kind of feels like a stretch.

also, not directed at archaea, just because a set of speakers (or eq curve, or whatever) are preferred universally in a statistical sense, it doesn't mean that everybody likes the same thing. those are two completely different concepts (and I see them frequently muddled together). the former is a statement about the average opinion and the evidence is pretty strong that can be predicted. the latter is a statement about individual opinion and that has been and always will be all over the map.











This is from Toole's Sound Reproduction, which itself summarizes the findings presented at conference.


Sean E. Olive, Peter L. Schuck, Sharon L. Sally, and Marc Bonneville. 1995.
The Variability of Loudspeaker Sound Quality Among Four Domestic-Sized Rooms
Audio Eng. Soc. 99th Convention, preprint 4092
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:41 AM
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This has all been presented ad nauseam. The prevailing belief is that GTG experience and room measurements trumps the research, or at least is compelling enough to ignore it or not believe it. I don't mean that in a negative way, just stating where this conversation has already been.

Also, Toole and Olive are considered bought by Harman and therefore not to be trusted and the research you presented has been run through the marketing department in a way that will advantage JBL speakers in the marketplace.
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:50 AM
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Also to make the argument for wanting the speakers to be accurate to a live performance. Unless you are in a very intimate setting. The music is being amplified through speakers AND mixed through a mixing board. So you are hearing the music the way those speakers sound and the engineer is mixing in for the venue. So which is accurate reproduction? A concert venue reproduction or a 1 on 1 small room venue where amplification isn't needed?
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:28 AM
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That's not really true most mixes come from the mic, and they don't mic the main house speakers (it would feedback)

They might mic a smaller guitar amp or cabinet on stage and then pump that through the mix console and into the main PA stack, but that's not mic a speaker it's technically considered an instrument. Most players are particular about their guitar and amp and the settings on it.

Same for bass and other stuff. They mic drums, brass sections, human voices but the mic line is generally used for the mix. If they mic the house it's for the crowd noise and ambience. The art is in the mix, how it's done, and the instruments and performers themselves. Ideally you'd want to capture that, but not alter it.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
This has all been presented ad nauseam. The prevailing belief is that GTG experience and room measurements trumps the research, or at least is compelling enough to ignore it or not believe it. I don't mean that in a negative way, just stating where this conversation has already been.

Also, Toole and Olive are considered bought by Harman and therefore not to be trusted and the research you presented has been run through the marketing department in a way that will advantage JBL speakers in the marketplace.
A good bulk of their research was done before Harman at the candian research council. That work and the same kind of work by others is why Canada has a lot of good speaker companies today. It's disproportionate I think, and higher than it would have ever been without the NRC. PSB and Paul Barton are a good example of the extension of that body of work. That's a totally different company, country, and research that all lines up perfectly with Toole and Olive work at Harman.

Only ignorant people make that claim. If you go to the audio engineering society webpage and start looking at papers and studies you'll see there is plenty of non Harman ones that all basically support or conclude the same things. To my knowledge there has never been any studies that did not align, at this point a lot of that stuff is many years old and almost matter of fact. It's never been seriously contended or challenged by the professional community or science communities. The only objections I've ever seen raised were by very small time speaker companies and normal enthusiasts; likely both just were talking without proper awareness or foundation of understanding so I give it very little credit
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:40 AM
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And I think in the end everyone will agree it's funner this way. I mean I enjoy my Submersives but sometimes it goes a month without a post in the official thread and it's very strict in respect to "on topic." Certainly fine if thats what the crowd wants but it's not fun like this thread or what has morphed into the JBL 4722 thread
Oddly the Berry 215 thread ($159 PA speaker) has the best high level audio talk I've seen in a MFG or product thread.

After arguing and educating for 20 pages about the realities of speaker design, it was measured and proven to align perfectly with all that was said by the intelligent posters. It took a long time to circle back and get there but it was a good thread and run it had.

Sometimes a little divergence is hidden gems.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
@Archaea

here is a study that compares different speakers in different rooms. I don't have a copy of the study, so I can only comment on the summary.

in the regression analysis, the room was an insignificant factor. this doesn't mean that the room didn't alter the sound of each speaker. it simply means that the same speaker preferences were present regardless of room.

it is always possible that he just didn't pick the right room to change the rank order speaker preferences, but that kind of feels like a stretch.

also, not directed at archaea, just because a set of speakers (or eq curve, or whatever) are preferred universally in a statistical sense, it doesn't mean that everybody likes the same thing. those are two completely different concepts (and I see them frequently muddled together). the former is a statement about the average opinion and the evidence is pretty strong that can be predicted. the latter is a statement about individual opinion and that has been and always will be all over the map.











This is from Toole's Sound Reproduction, which itself summarizes the findings presented at conference.


Sean E. Olive, Peter L. Schuck, Sharon L. Sally, and Marc Bonneville. 1995.
The Variability of Loudspeaker Sound Quality Among Four Domestic-Sized Rooms
Audio Eng. Soc. 99th Convention, preprint 4092
LTD02 with a post as strong as King Kong! I do often wonder if you are a real person, or a PC program created by AVS to help educate people and help them make intelligent decisions.

@beastaudio once suggested that to me. It made sense.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
The prevailing belief is that GTG experience and room measurements trumps the research, or at least is compelling enough to ignore it or not believe it.

are you saying that gtg experience and room measurements have found evidence to the contrary, i.e. speaker rank order preferences are room dependent? if you are aware of any controlled experiments without significant methodical problems, i'd be interested to review them.


btw, my apologies for citing a study that has already been cited. i haven't read the full thread.
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
That's not really true most mixes come from the mic, and they don't mic the main house speakers (it would feedback)

They might mic a smaller guitar amp or cabinet on stage and then pump that through the mix console and into the main PA stack, but that's not mic a speaker it's technically considered an instrument. Most players are particular about their guitar and amp and the settings on it.

Same for bass and other stuff. They mic drums, brass sections, human voices but the mic line is generally used for the mix. If they mic the house it's for the crowd noise and ambience. The art is in the mix, how it's done, and the instruments and performers themselves. Ideally you'd want to capture that, but not alter it.
Yes ideally. But that's almost never the case. No matter what you try to claim the amplified sound is played through speakers. touched or untouched. That sound will NEVER be the same as just the instruments playing in the environment not amplified. It can get close. But just not possible
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Old 08-20-2015, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
are you saying that gtg experience and room measurements have found evidence to the contrary, i.e. speaker rank order preferences are room dependent? if you are aware of any controlled experiments without significant methodical problems, i'd be interested to review them.


btw, my apologies for citing a study that has already been cited. i haven't read the full thread.
No, I'm not saying that since it hasn't been my experience in the GTG's I've attended.

I'm in total agreement with you and was simply summarizing the discussion from other threads. The same points you make have been made but are simply not accepted by a large majority of the posters in those threads or this one. So it goes around and around.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Yes ideally. But that's almost never the case. No matter what you try to claim the amplified sound is played through speakers. touched or untouched. That sound will NEVER be the same as just the instruments playing in the environment not amplified. It can get close. But just not possible
The point of an accurate speaker is not to reproduce the live performance accurately, because that's not possible due to the fact that the signal being fed it are from microphones. The only thing a speaker can do is reproduce the signal fed it, whatever it is. Which typically consists of whatever the mixer did to it.

If the recording engineer and mixer captured the essence of the performance then you want that reproduced by the speaker. If they did a bad job, find a different recording.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:05 AM
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The point of an accurate speaker is not to reproduce the live performance accurately, because that's not possible. The point of accuracy in speaker design is to reproduce the signal fed them. Whatever it is. Which typically consists of whatever the mixer did to it.
Exactly thanks for clarifying my point
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:16 AM
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@Mfusick and @Gooddoc


Same Sh-t different day. You two sound like a broken record. When is it going to stop?
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:16 AM
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No, I'm not saying that since it hasn't been my experience in the GTG's I've attended.

I'm in total agreement with you and was simply summarizing the discussion from other threads. The same points you make have been made but are simply not accepted by a large majority of the posters in those threads or this one. So it goes around and around.
ah! i see.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:24 AM
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The point of an accurate speaker is not to reproduce the live performance accurately, because that's not possible due to the fact that the signal being fed it are from microphones. The only thing a speaker can do is reproduce the signal fed it, whatever it is. Which typically consists of whatever the mixer did to it.

If the recording engineer and mixer captured the essence of the performance then you want that reproduced by the speaker. If they did a bad job, find a different recording.

This is very true. Even in a recording studio once you step out of the live room and into the mixing booth the sound has already changed. Volume alone is altered in a large way because you now have control over the play back volume. However, you do want to have the most transparent monitors (speakers) so that you don't mistakenly alter the sound due to the monitors.

As an example, say the monitors added in some extra bass on the low end. As an engineer you may try to mix that out to make the mix sound more flat. But then you play back your mix on a monitor with a flatter frequency response. Now all that extra bass that was there is gone because you mixed it out but now there's hardly any bass at all. Your mix now sounds bright and lacking that natural low end that was there before you altered it.

I kinda lost my train of thought.

Anyways, if you like to add bass at home like a lot of us do. That is completely different than what I am talking about above. But a lot of people do prefer a flat transparent speaker and there is defiantly nothing wrong with wanting that. But as my buddy Carp says, that would bore him to death. Different strokes.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:30 AM
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@Mfusick and @Gooddoc


Same Sh-t different day. You two sound like a broken record. When is it going to stop?
There's an ignore function. Use it.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:50 AM
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Yes ideally. But that's almost never the case. No matter what you try to claim the amplified sound is played through speakers. touched or untouched. That sound will NEVER be the same as just the instruments playing in the environment not amplified. It can get close. But just not possible
This I agree with. Real life is real life. The point is to make it sound as good as possible, and preserve the art in the process.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:58 AM
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This I agree with. Real life is real life. The point is to make it sound as good as possible, and preserve the art in the process.
Understood
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:03 AM
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This I agree with. Real life is real life. The point is to make it sound as good as possible, and preserve the art in the process.
What a profound statement.

Back to car talk ... please
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:22 AM
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There's an ignore function. Use it.
Of coarse that's your reply b/c asking you and your sidekick to post responsibly in the appropriate threads is a waste of time.
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:26 AM
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Of coarse that's your reply b/c asking you and your sidekick to post responsibly in the appropriate threads is a waste of time.
Yeah, we wouldn't want too much science to interupt the car talk, now would we?
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:36 AM
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Yeah, we wouldn't want too much science to interupt the car talk, now would we?
Over the past 10 days you two have beat "speaker accuracy and measurements" into the ground on this thread. Whenever a person post's keep repeating the same thing over and over it's time to change the subject.

I don't mind off topic discussions so at this point I look forward to car talk as its surely better than beating a dead horse.

Chris

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Old 08-20-2015, 07:38 AM
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Yeah, we wouldn't want too much science to interupt the car talk, now would we?
Don't confuse productive discourse with the pedantic regurgitation of 2nd hand knowledge.

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Old 08-20-2015, 08:31 AM
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Now now boys.....


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Old 08-20-2015, 08:41 AM
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Ah,,, ummm,,, no.. I shouldn't... Wellll,,, no no I really... , but it's. You see.

Nope, not gonna go there.

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Old 08-20-2015, 08:46 AM
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Ah,,, ummm,,, no.. I shouldn't... Wellll,,, no no I really... , but it's. You see.

Nope, not gonna go there.

I'm running for the hills. You should follow me and stay out. If talking about cars, and other random stuff is more important and easily tolerated, but talking about how a speaker interacts with a given room is not- I don't belong here anyways. Nor do you.

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Old 08-20-2015, 10:29 AM
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sorry to sidetrack the thread. Im watching Metallica Through The Never, wow one of my favorite blu rays as of now. 2.0 audio master audio is awesome ,Triple 12's do it justice, kick drums and all. JTR+Metallica=FTW




now back to your regular scheduled programming
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