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post #30961 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
@Peterc613 very interesting, PM sending as I am curious. I need to do some research about audio presets and such. looks like Marantz 8801's as low as 1250 on ebay and 7701's as cheap as 700.

All seems good and I have an Oppo 103D. But I am not sure about the audio. Am I watching movies in the first version ever of Pro Logic 5.1? How does this aspect work? I don't doubt they are amazing quality just curious if I can use 7 or 9 channel surround effectively.

Or is everything simply decoded at the Oppo and simply passes through the Lexicon? Is this why I connect all quality RCA from Oppo to Lexicon then XLR out to my amps? What listening presets do I have?

Everything is decoded at the Oppo and then passes through the Lexicon with head added gain. The Oppo units are way more than simple BluRay players that handle SACD, DVD-audio and CD formats. They are digital media centers that you connect all your digital devices to so that every feed benefits from digital to analog with reference quality DAC's

The BDP-103D uses Marvell's Kyoto-G2H video processor which supports bit-stream output of Dolby TrueHD via its HDMI 1.4a output. It can also internally decode Dolby TrueHD into LPCM and output via HDMI or the 7.1ch analog audio output terminals. Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital Plus audio formats are also supported. It supports bit-stream output of DTS-HD Master Audio. It can also internally decode DTS-HD Master Audio and output via HDMI or the 7.1ch analog audio output terminals. (DTS-HD High Resolution Audio and DTS Digital Surround are also supported.)

The DAC is one of the most important components for digital audio playback. The SABRE32 Reference ES9018 from ESS Technology used in the BDP-105 is the world’s best performing 32-bit audio DAC solution targeted for high-end consumer applications and professional studio equipment. With the ESS patented 32-bit DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the SABRE32 Reference DAC delivers an unprecedented DNR (Dynamic Range) of up to 135dB and THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise) of -120dB, the industry’s highest performance level that will satisfy even the most demanding audio enthusiast. The BDP-105 uses two ES9018 DAC chips - one for the 7.1-channel output, and another for the dedicated stereo output.

By bypassing the low fidelity, poor quality DAC of traditional AVR motherboards, the BDP-105 turns any AVR into a high performing multi-media source by converting digital audio to analog through the ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC.The BDP-105 features a dedicated 2-channel analog output with specially optimized ES9018 DAC and output driving stages. The stereo output offers both XLR balanced and RCA single-ended connectors. The balanced output features a true differential signal path all the way from the DAC to the 3-pin XLR connector. By transmitting a pair of differential signals, the balanced output provides better common-mode noise rejection and improves signal quality.

This why you connect all quality RCA from Oppo to Lexicon then XLR out to your amps. If for some reason you don't like the sound of Lexicon, then Anthem, Meridian, B&K, Krell and many other "last generation" high end reference processors will suffice. The DAC and processing in the Oppo and the "high end" audiophile preamp electronics are much better than what you'll find in any mass market AVR from Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Integra or Yamaha.

That's because fundamentally the units produced years ago were designed from a completely different perspective. The older "reference" processors and current Oppo units were designed to reach a particular result in quality of sound, quality of build and quality of components. The prototypes were improved by listening to the result and then going back to the engineers to make changes for the better. The constraints imposed by marketing, product life cycles and price considerations had much less influence on the process because the target market was audiophiles (who will pay what it takes to achieve the sound they want), the products were expected to be kept for many years (and traded to another audiophile only when something came along that sounded better), the price considerations placed engineering, quality of build components first and cost compromises to meet a target price secondary (the price ended up being what it was - which was usually comparable to other reference equipment of the same caliber).

Modern AVR's are designed through a completely different process. Everything starts at the marketing department with a set mandatory profit margin, target price point and list of required features (comparable to the list of featured offered by competitor's at that price point). Manufacturers compete by who has the highest power rating and longest list of featured at any given price point.

Today's AVRS don't have the same power as the older units even though the power rating may look the same. Today's units use smaller transformers or switching power supplies and cheeper lower capacity medium ripple Capacitors. Then they try to compensate with extensive correction in the use of complicated Integrated Circuits. Switching power supplies cause EMI and high frequency harmonics that must be filtered out. Cheeper capacitors with more ripple require more smoothing to replace the cyclical pulses of AC power with the constantly flat and stable feed of a DC power that electronic circuits require. All of this creates an amplifier with the ability to power less speakers at a sustained RMS and usually at a higher Total Harmonic Distortion.

As a result many manufactures list their wattage rating as "watts per 1 channel drive", or "watts per 3 channels driven". Occasionally they will list "watts per all channels driven" but it's usually at 8 ohms and around .05% THD. Often they will list "Dynamic Power" at a much higher number. I'm not sure what "Dynamic Power" is supposed to represent, but I think it means peak power rather than RMS. Unfortunately, most of these receivers are doing home theater duty with sustained peak output from special effects instead of temporary transient peak output from live musical instruments.

Older units used large heavy toroidal transformers in their power supply with large capacity, low ripple Capacitors and audio grade electronics on thick heat sinks to dissipate heat. Up until the deregulation of the 1980-1990's, the FTC was responsible for regulating how audio manufacturers tested and rated their published power ratings. They were trying to protect american manufacturers from the cheeper electronics imported from Japan. As a result a "power war' went on between manufacturers at that time period. The Pioneer SX780 and SX1250, and monster receivers from Kenwood, Sansui and Yamaha competed against the likes of Marantz, Fisher and Sherwood. The FTC required that all amplifiers be tested at FULL sustained RMS power rating for many hours without overheating or an increase in distortion. Units were rated at 8 ohms, 4 ohms and even 2 ohms with around .005% THD ( measurement that hardly exists in today's AVR's). When the home theater market took off in by the end of the 1990's this legacy of beefy power supplies and accurate power ratings resulted in most of the AVR's from 10 years ago weighing 30-40 pounds or more. Today most AVR's weigh 16-21 pounds and the difference is in the smaller power supply, smaller capacitors, thin aluminum heat sinks, thin metal and plastic construction with no copper shielding.

Today's AVR's must provide an enormous laundry list of features (many of which you may not use) to compete on the internet: Dolby, Auro, Atmos, and , ISF certification, THX Ultra 2 Plus certification, Smartphone and tablet control, WiFi, Wireless LAN, HD radio, TuneIn Radio, Pandora, Slacker, SIRIUS XM Internet Radio, Spotify, AUPEO!, and Deezer from within the app, locate and stream your 192/24, 96/24, and 5.6 MHz DSD albums on NAS and PC via DLNA hub, HDMI for 4K/60 Hz Video resolution and video up sampling, 3D, Audio Return Channel, DeepColor, x.v.Color, LipSync, Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, DTX Neo:X immersive sound, DVD-Audio, Super Audio CD, Multichannel PCM, and CEC, Independent crossover adjustment for each channel (40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 120, 150, 200 Hz), A/V sync control (up to 800 ms at 48 kHz), DSP modes for Gaming, Rock, Sports, Action, Nightclub and Auditorium, 5-9 HDMI inputs and 1-3 outputs, Component video switching (2-4 inputs and 1-2 outputs), 2-4 composite video inputs and 1-2 outputs, 4-8 optical and coaxial audio inputs, 2-4 parallel subwoofer pre-outs, USB port for mass storage and audio playback capability, HDMI/MHL for 1080p video and interfacing smartphone and tablet, Distributed audio with zone two, zone three and whole house mode for synchronized housewide audio, Distributed video over HDBaseT or HDMI with RIHD (remote interactive over HDMI) for system control.

Quality of sound from a personal audition has very little to do with it. And after an AVR manufacturer pays for all the discreet processing chip sets and licensing fees for all those features, there's not a lot remaining in the budget after deducting the mandatory profit margin for actually building the unit and paying for quality parts. That'w why modern AVR's have small or switching power supplies, thin metal frames with plastic faceplates and knobs, and everything is managed through programable IC's on a large motherboard that also holds the proprietary IC's rather than discrete circuits with heavy transformers and large capacity low ripple Capacitors. The sound they make is commensurate with the quality of the components. Since almost everybody buys off the internet, no one has any point of reference (unless you're old enough to remember non-compressed pre-MP3 audio over a quality audiophile system).

The reliability of the modern AVR's is also affected by these fundamental changes. Cheeper electronics wear out earlier, low capacity Capacitors driven at max output to cover 7 channels and 2 zones degrade in power output and start to overheat and bulge, Complicated IC electrical chips and complex motherboards have an inherently higher fail rate that simpler designed discrete circuits. In an older unit, if there's a problem in one part of the AVR, you simply replace the transistor, rectifier, diode or capacitor in that circuit and it might cost you $50 to $100. With a modern AVR, everything's integrated on 1-2 large mother boards and you have to replace the whole board. Even if it's only one of your HDMI ports malfunctioning, the entire motherboard must be replaced for $250-$350 plus at least an hour or two of labor at $90-$120 each. The programming on these boards with all the proprietary chipsets trying to interface with each other is extremely complex and bugs and conflicts are inevitable. That's why of you google most mid priced AVR's on the internet you will uncover a plethora of complaints from users that spent $600 on a receiver only to have to replace it 3 years later because it broke and the repair was almost the cost of a new receiver.

Because many brick and mortar stores have gone out of business, most people end up buying a unit without ever hearing it after extensive research on the internet. They search the internet for which processor has the most power and longest list of features at the price point they want to spend. Consumers also rely upon user Reviews on blogs like AVSforum to validate their decision, but since this is nor rally useful to make a comparison between the sound of an older "reference" processor versus a newer contemporary AVR. First, because almost everyone is starting from the same point of reference (a contemporary AVR), and second, because most people don'y have the funds to purchase several units and make a direct blind A/B comparison (they're going from memory). Lastly, many of today's consumers have never had the chance to hear multiple audiophile systems at a variety of high end stores as was common only 10 yeas ago.

Some people do venture into a Magnolia or Frys for a listen, but in that case they're comparing one mass market AVR to another mass market AVR and don't know what they're missing. Unless the Magnolia salesman takes the $700 AVR buyer out of the Onkyo, Integra, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha room with the Polk speakers, and takes him to the high end room with the $7000 McIntosh electronics and the $10,000 Martin Logan speakers he'll never know how good audio can sound if you buy the same caliber of gear used instead of new.

Some AVS members will put down these older processors because they don 't have this laundry list of the latest features. However, the many of those features will not be used by the average consumer that is more interested in simplicity (so the wife can operate it and the kids can't screw it up), and what's most important to them is something that SOUNDS really really nice in their system. The Oppo units provide more than enough of the really important features that most consumers will actually use, while the older "reference" preamplifiers will provide the quality of sound that they don't realize they've been missing. Best of all both pieces will be built like a tank and provide years of pleasure without breaking down.
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post #30962 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 02:15 PM
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He bought an AVR. ^. Ship sailed. He made a good choice too.
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post #30963 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 02:19 PM
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The 7702 was my first Marantz and so can't comment on the 7701 although I read there were some significant improvements made in the model upgrade but that info was mainly from a dealer so ... caveat emptor.
GOTCHA, Well everything happened fast and I am picking up an Onkyo PR-SC5508 Pre. IT has all the bells and whistles anyone would need for a non Atmos setup and has balanced outs for all the 7 channels plus a section of heights or wides with two balanced subwoofer outs. Now I need to find a Onkyo PA-MC5500 matching amp with balanced inputs for all my non LCR channels. Then my whole world will be balanced
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post #30964 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 02:21 PM
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He bought an AVR. ^. Ship sailed. He made a good choice too.
Well technically I need Mark to
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post #30965 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 02:29 PM
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@peter 613 I see what you are saying and I would be inclined to scoop up one of these old Processors when I see one for cheap. I think at the very least it will make for some fun blind testing when I finally have a GTG when my room gets built. I mean running the same content through with different listening sessions and same lab rats. One session can be Onkyo 5508 running balanced to Crown DSI amps running active to JBL 4722's. Another can be running unbalanced through Denon 4520, and another could be the Oppo/Lexicon setup. Would be fun HT nerd time at a minimum IMO. Can even run the passive crossovers in there for fun.

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post #30966 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 03:10 PM
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You could not tell the difference and there's likely very little dicernable difference between the Onkyo and somthing else. Save your time and you cash, and chase something with a lot more opportunity for improvement or bang for your buck.

Spend the money on treatments, or save it and use it for when you upgrade that pre/pro for Atmos and DTSX. There's no point bringing in a second non Atmos pre pro IMO.
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post #30967 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 04:17 PM
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The DAC is one of the most important components for digital audio playback. The SABRE32 Reference ES9018 from ESS Technology used in the BDP-105 is the world’s best performing 32-bit audio DAC solution targeted for high-end consumer applications and professional studio equipment. With the ESS patented 32-bit DAC architecture and Time Domain Jitter Eliminator, the SABRE32 Reference DAC delivers an unprecedented DNR (Dynamic Range) of up to 135dB and THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion plus Noise) of -120dB, the industry’s highest performance level that will satisfy even the most demanding audio enthusiast. The BDP-105 uses two ES9018 DAC chips - one for the 7.1-channel output, and another for the dedicated stereo output.

By bypassing the low fidelity, poor quality DAC of traditional AVR motherboards, the BDP-105 turns any AVR into a high performing multi-media source by converting digital audio to analog through the ESS Sabre32 Reference DAC.The BDP-105 features a dedicated 2-channel analog output with specially optimized ES9018 DAC and output driving stages. The stereo output offers both XLR balanced and RCA single-ended connectors. The balanced output features a true differential signal path all the way from the DAC to the 3-pin XLR connector. By transmitting a pair of differential signals, the balanced output provides better common-mode noise rejection and improves signal quality.
Bit of a moot point given that the oppo still seems unable to implement bass management without clipping, pretty fundamental flaw for a HT device whose USP is the quality of the analogue stage.
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post #30968 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 05:29 PM
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Ah right... a purpose.

I'm not good at coming up with that for GTG's.

With all the Atmos craze lately it would be cool to do a GTG to see if Atmos is worth it, we could run some scenes with and without Atmos and possibly do it blind.

However, if I remember right you don't plan on putting in ceiling speakers and I don't blame you since it seems like the surround sound can't get any better than it already is.
Well, since I run JRiver through my HTPC I'm a no-go on Atmos or DTS-X until JRiver can decode either. Which may be never so we shall see. I'm pretty happy with my surrounds as is but I'm sure the new audio formats would make it better. If JRiver never comes around I guess I'll have to figure out a plan B if Atmos/DTS-X becomes the Cats Meow.
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post #30969 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 08:19 PM
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Bit of a moot point given that the oppo still seems unable to implement bass management without clipping, pretty fundamental flaw for a HT device whose USP is the quality of the analogue stage.
I was about to buy a 105, but this fatal was a show stopper for me. I am glad I read about it before purchasing.
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post #30970 of 31296 Old 08-22-2015, 11:59 PM
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I have through the never, and you are right it's amazing. I even saw it in the theater and drug my wife along when it came out. The concert I linked (and watched yesterday) from YouTube was a show this year in Vegas.
I dont think you needed to go to those extremes to watch the show
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post #30971 of 31296 Old 08-23-2015, 07:29 AM
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Well, since I run JRiver through my HTPC I'm a no-go on Atmos or DTS-X until JRiver can decode either. Which may be never so we shall see. I'm pretty happy with my surrounds as is but I'm sure the new audio formats would make it better. If JRiver never comes around I guess I'll have to figure out a plan B if Atmos/DTS-X becomes the Cats Meow.
Do you have reason to think that DTS-X or Atmos wont be supported in the future? I would hope it will!
I was going to build a JRiver PC this fall.

Since you have the outboard DSP now you couldn't you just pass the Jriver output via bitstream to an AVR and then AVR to your DSP?

I was thinking on doing this.

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post #30972 of 31296 Old 08-23-2015, 04:53 PM
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He isnt using an avr his htpc is his processor with jriver decoding the audio and then sending it to his external dac where it is converted to analog, gain added and then passed onto his amps, so that bitstreaming the codec to an AVR isnt possible. JRiver isnt likely to decode DTS-X or ATMOS anytime soon due to licensing (maybe a very long time if ever), but will be able to send these codecs intact to an AVR for decoding & converting to analog via bitstreaming but you lose the dsp within jriver.
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post #30973 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 12:27 AM
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So, a couple of guys visited my place to test my SVS PC12-NSD that I am trying to sell.

The stupid mistake I did was to pair it with my JTR speakers for testing

Long story short...they wanted to buy my JTR Single 8ht speakers instead of the sub.


Damnit!!! Thanks Jeff and also thanks Jeff
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post #30974 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 09:06 AM
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So, a couple of guys visited my place to test my SVS PC12-NSD that I am trying to sell.

The stupid mistake I did was to pair it with my JTR speakers for testing

Long story short...they wanted to buy my JTR Single 8ht speakers instead of the sub.


Damnit!!! Thanks Jeff and also thanks Jeff
I think this may be the big seller for the Single 8's. I have read numerous reviews over the past few years about single 8's shining as mains and sound amazing. When I first tried my Volt 10's after I built them they were ok but it was no where near the Triple 8's I had in sound quality.

But I am going to try them again to test out Crown amps crossed to the Seatons as they are the biggest speaker I currently have possession until the new ones ship. Maybe they will sound better now they are broken in.
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post #30975 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 11:50 AM
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I think this may be the big seller for the Single 8's. I have read numerous reviews over the past few years about single 8's shining as mains and sound amazing. When I first tried my Volt 10's after I built them they were ok but it was no where near the Triple 8's I had in sound quality.

But I am going to try them again to test out Crown amps crossed to the Seatons as they are the biggest speaker I currently have possession until the new ones ship. Maybe they will sound better now they are broken in.
Could you describe the differences? It's hard to find comparisons.
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post #30976 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 12:17 PM
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Well that would need @Archaea or some of the KC crew as I have not heard a Single 8. But I did own Triple 8's which I think are very similar CD's. Let me get the Volt's hooked up tonight and give them a fair chance, like I said first time was for 15 minutes and they were brand new never even fired up yet. Now they have had a year on surround duty. So I will report back around 9PM PST. But the differences IMO from the first short session to the JTR T8 was the T8 was much more clear sounding. The Volt sounded a bit muffled and hollow and the T8 was open and clean. Again I will report back tonight with broken in well used Volt 10's. I have been 100% happy with them as surrounds and they were a significant step up over Definitive Technology PM1000's as surrounds. But I also would say the PM1000's sounded better as mains also. So tonight shall be a good test.
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post #30977 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 02:59 PM
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I have been using the new Volt 10 LX's for the past few weeks for my side surrounds. They are very nice, and I love their off axis output. They have a wider dispersion for sure than my eD 6's. However.... they do not have that super clear/pleasing sound that the JTR's have. I'm not sure it matters a ton for movies, but for music it does. I hardly use all channel stereo but yesterday I was doing some work in the room and moving around a lot so I was using all channel stereo. Pretty significant sound quality difference. If you didn't have the JTR's to directly compare they sound damn good for 150$ speakers.







I'm happy though. I like the surround sound better than the previous position (you can see where they were before, up high on the wall, I need to repair the hole). I knew if I want to eventually go Atmos I needed to get them lower.

If I made more money it would be a no brainer to get all single 8's but I just can't spend that much on surrounds.
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post #30978 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 03:13 PM
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I have been using the new Volt 10 LX's for the past few weeks for my side surrounds. They are very nice, and I love their off axis output. They have a wider dispersion for sure than my eD 6's. However.... they do not have that super clear/pleasing sound that the JTR's have. I'm not sure it matters a ton for movies, but for music it does. I hardly use all channel stereo but yesterday I was doing some work in the room and moving around a lot so I was using all channel stereo. Pretty significant sound quality difference. If you didn't have the JTR's to directly compare they sound damn good for 150$ speakers.







I'm happy though. I like the surround sound better than the previous position (you can see where they were before, up high on the wall, I need to repair the hole). I knew if I want to eventually go Atmos I needed to get them lower.

If I made more money it would be a no brainer to get all single 8's but I just can't spend that much on surrounds.
what are the dimensions of those? Im looking for atmos speakers that are HE...to replace my cheesy quintets

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post #30979 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
what are the dimensions of those? Im looking for atmos speakers that are HE...to replace my cheesy quintets
I used the front baffle from diysoundgroup which is 14 x 14 3/4. The depth is 8".

If you go this slim Matt (designer) suggests you get a capacitor:

http://www.parts-express.com/400uf-1...citor--027-376


Here is the post I got that from, he tells you where to put the capacitor. He made some LX's that are 7" deep:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...sg4462#msg4462
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post #30980 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I used the front baffle from diysoundgroup which is 14 x 14 3/4. The depth is 8".

If you go this slim Matt (designer) suggests you get a capacitor:

http://www.parts-express.com/400uf-1...citor--027-376


Here is the post I got that from, he tells you where to put the capacitor. He made some LX's that are 7" deep:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/i...sg4462#msg4462
hmmm...i might have to contract somwone out to put together teh xovers for me...I have no sodering skills (nor have an iron) and no clue about that stuff lol..

8" is actually a lower profile than the hanging quintets..

wonder how I would hang them

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post #30981 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 03:41 PM
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He isnt using an avr his htpc is his processor with jriver decoding the audio and then sending it to his external dac where it is converted to analog, gain added and then passed onto his amps, so that bitstreaming the codec to an AVR isnt possible. JRiver isnt likely to decode DTS-X or ATMOS anytime soon due to licensing (maybe a very long time if ever), but will be able to send these codecs intact to an AVR for decoding & converting to analog via bitstreaming but you lose the dsp within jriver.
Right, I know he is currently using Jriver as the decoder but bitstreaming IS possible, however as you pointed out, the DSP ability in Jriver is lost. I believe the MOTU 24AO has DSP functionality built in.

So I was thinking thus:
Jriver (bitstream) -> AVR (Decode DTS-X/ATMOS) -> MOTU 24AO (DSP functions only, will need the extra MOTU 24AI for the analogue inputs) -> AMPS

This does eliminate the use of the better DAC's in the MOTU 24AO but if the AVR is high quality (and everything David buys is!) it likely won't make a audible difference.

The question I wasn't really sure about was if you could use the DSP functions on the MOTU 24AO, I'm assuming so if the inputs are done from the 24AI.

Would be nice if DTS/Dolby just produced a software decoder you could license as an add-on.

Last edited by theblackangus; 08-24-2015 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Various edits for grammar.
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post #30982 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 04:36 PM
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Right, I know he is currently using Jriver as the decoder but bitstreaming IS possible, however as you pointed out, the DSP ability in Jriver is lost. I believe the MOTU 24AO has DSP functionality built in.

So I was thinking thus:
Jriver (bitstream) -> AVR (Decode DTS-X/ATMOS) -> MOTU 24AO (DSP functions only, will need the extra MOTU 24AI for the analogue inputs) -> AMPS

This does eliminate the use of the better DAC's in the MOTU 24AO but if the AVR is high quality (and everything David buys is!) it likely won't make a audible difference.

The question I wasn't really sure about was if you could use the DSP functions on the MOTU 24AO, I'm assuming so if the inputs are done from the 24AI.

Would be nice if DTS/Dolby just produced a software decoder you could license as an add-on.
Well of course it is possible, but he would need to add a pre/pro with atmos/dtsx decoder and i believe he uses audiolense for room correction which probably requires convoltion and for it to be pcm thus the need of jriver doing the processing.

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post #30983 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 04:41 PM
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Brian, The Xovers are not too hard, I made it easily! But surely someone would do it! I would do it for you if you really didn't want to do it. I'm not a soldering pro but you can see my Volt thread in my sig. Certainly no cost, our AVS community is much more valuable than a few bucks Certainly if someone who had better experience offered take them as I make no claim to be a pro but certainly confident 100% in being able to do the job. I suppose I could simply send you mine then you send me your parts, just a thought. Cool thing is you can make enclosure any dimension you want.

Anyway @carp , I was saying the same thing in Swolephiles "I just purchased JBL 4722's" thread and JTR thread. That the Volt's didn't sound very good to me compared to JTR Triple 8's which I would say is very very similar to the S8, just two more 8" woofers. The Volt's seemed more muddy, it's hard to explain. I even said my Definitive Technology PM 1000's sounded better. But this was immediately after construction and it very well may be the first time the Denovo DNA-150 CD had power to it. Maybe the woofer too. I don't know if they will sound better after 11 months of use but I would suspect so. But when it comes to surround I would say the beat the crap out of the Definitive Technologies and were identical to the T8's as I have tried them as surrounds as well. I was 100% happy with them as surrounds. I don't understand how a speaker that I liked better as a main (DT PM100) got the crap beat out of it on surround duty by the Volt 10.

Interesting you liked them lower though. I will have to try out numerous positions down the road when that point comes. But I have had them 24" above head about 10-12" behind firing directly off side wall like you. I thought they couldn't possibly sound any better in another position.

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post #30984 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 04:52 PM
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Well of course it is possible, but he would need to add a pre/pro with atmos/dtsx decoder and i believe he uses audiolense for room correction which probably requires convoltion and for it to be pcm thus the need of jriver doing the processing.
I thought DD was tuning this room =)
I was at his house when DD was doing measurement/DSP work a few months back, tuning out his room curve for various seats.
So I don't think audiolense is a problem. (Unless he switched away from the custom setup)

The post I was replying to was the "plan b" if Jriver doesnt support DTS-X/ATMOS, and I was assuming he didnt want to totally ditch Jriver as the source. If Jriver doesn't get DTS-X/ATMOS support, the only option is an AVR or is there another?

This conversation is interesting to me as I like JRiver media centers features/organization, and want to do ATMOS/DTS-X as well.
So it seems to me that if you want ATMOS/DTS-X then an AVR needs to be in the loop assuming Jriver is used as a source.

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post #30985 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 05:41 PM
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I thought DD was tuning this room =)
I was at his house when DD was doing measurement/DSP work a few months back, tuning out his room curve for various seats.
So I don't think audiolense is a problem. (Unless he switched away from the custom setup)

And if Jriver doesn't get DTS-X/ATMOS support, the only option is an AVR or is there another?

This conversation is interesting to me as I like JRiver media centers features/organization, and want to do ATMOS/DTS-X as well.
So it seems to me that if you want ATMOS/DTS-X then an AVR needs to be in the loop assuming Jriver is used as a source.
At the moment bitztreaming to a pre/pro or avr is probably the only way to acomplish atmos/dts-x from a htpc environment. At some point a atmos/dts-x/auro decoder might be built into something like the oppo player, but i have heard it isnt likely to happen anytime soon. And for jriver or other applications to decode these codecs will probably require some open source decoders which isnt likely to happen.

Also, if you are applying room correction to the audio signal in the htpc you need jriver to do the processing meaning you cant bitstream (desertdome is tuning dlbeck's room by applying eq filters with audiolense)

My current HTPC is my primary source, but i do have a directtv box and xbox 360 all going to a somewhat dated denon avr 4311 without atmos/dts-x/auro. I currently have dirac live on the htpc for my room correction which requires the audio signal to be in pcm to apply the filters. So i use jriver to process the audio and then dirac filters are applied and sent to avr for bass management and use the dac in the avr for conversion before sending to my amps. When using this process audyssey is turned off in the avr, but when i use the directtv or xbox audyssey (pro) is on. Since jriver can decode dolby true hd and dts master (using arcsoft tmt dts decoder) this works great, but it wont work for the 3d audio. Since i dont want to give up dirac live for my music my plan is to buy a 3d audio pre/pro next year and bitstream movies with 3d audio with dirac off and audyssey on and switch it with music using auto switch and multiple zones in jriver. I will have to manually turn audyssey/dirac on and off at least i havent come up with an idea on how to make that happen automatically.

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post #30986 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 06:07 PM
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At the moment bitztreaming to a pre/pro or avr is probably the only way to acomplish atmos/dts-x from a htpc environment. At some point a atmos/dts-x/auro decoder might be built into something like the oppo player, but i have heard it isnt likely to happen anytime soon. And for jriver or other applications to decode these codecs will probably require some open source decoders which isnt likely to happen.

Also, if you are applying room correction to the audio signal in the htpc you need jriver to do the processing meaning you cant bitstream (desertdome is tuning dlbeck's room by applying eq filters with audiolense)
Ahh my bad I thought audiolense was an automated room correction like dirac.

I *think* the MOTU that DLBeck has will provide the same DSP functionality that Jriver/audiolense currently does, but I could be wrong.
Which is why I was hoping desertdome could clarify. This would allow you to keep Jriver as a source, add the AVR as a decoder and then allow for room correction via manual tuning (which Im ok with) in the MOTU for up to 24 channels, or skip the MOTU and have two mini-dsp dirac units if you want automated room correction with ATMOS/DTS-X.

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post #30987 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 06:11 PM
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Brian, The Xovers are not too hard, I made it easily! But surely someone would do it! I would do it for you if you really didn't want to do it. I'm not a soldering pro but you can see my Volt thread in my sig. Certainly no cost, our AVS community is much more valuable than a few bucks Certainly if someone who had better experience offered take them as I make no claim to be a pro but certainly confident 100% in being able to do the job. I suppose I could simply send you mine then you send me your parts, just a thought. Cool thing is you can make enclosure any dimension you want.

Anyway @carp , I was saying the same thing in Swolephiles "I just purchased JBL 4722's" thread and JTR thread. That the Volt's didn't sound very good to me compared to JTR Triple 8's which I would say is very very similar to the S8, just two more 8" woofers. The Volt's seemed more muddy, it's hard to explain. I even said my Definitive Technology PM 1000's sounded better. But this was immediately after construction and it very well may be the first time the Denovo DNA-150 CD had power to it. Maybe the woofer too. I don't know if they will sound better after 11 months of use but I would suspect so. But when it comes to surround I would say the beat the crap out of the Definitive Technologies and were identical to the T8's as I have tried them as surrounds as well. I was 100% happy with them as surrounds. I don't understand how a speaker that I liked better as a main (DT PM100) got the crap beat out of it on surround duty by the Volt 10.

Interesting you liked them lower though. I will have to try out numerous positions down the road when that point comes. But I have had them 24" above head about 10-12" behind firing directly off side wall like you. I thought they couldn't possibly sound any better in another position.
The center of the driver/CD is close to a foot higher than my head and like you around a foot behind my head so I bet it's real similar to your setup. Previously my surrounds were all the way up next to the ceiling and a little bit more forward. I experimented a lot with placement and found that if I have the sides just slightly behind me I feel a lot more surrounded then if I have them at 90 degrees, and having them lower is better than way up high which is good since that is how you are supposed to do it for Atmos anyway.

I'm going to do a direct comparison to my eD 6's that have the upgraded CD (can't remember what the CD is though...) and see what I like better on axis. I already know I like the Volt's better off axis - easily.
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post #30988 of 31296 Old 08-24-2015, 09:51 PM
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The center of the driver/CD is close to a foot higher than my head and like you around a foot behind my head so I bet it's real similar to your setup. Previously my surrounds were all the way up next to the ceiling and a little bit more forward. I experimented a lot with placement and found that if I have the sides just slightly behind me I feel a lot more surrounded then if I have them at 90 degrees, and having them lower is better than way up high which is good since that is how you are supposed to do it for Atmos anyway.

I'm going to do a direct comparison to my eD 6's that have the upgraded CD (can't remember what the CD is though...) and see what I like better on axis. I already know I like the Volt's better off axis - easily.
Ok yea sounds real similar, they just freaking excelled where I had them in respect to envelopment. Like you said just behind I think is key and how I will always do it. OF course I will experiment in the final room.

So in you GTG ventures surely you have heard the Denovo DNA-360 right? I think @Sibuna has them right? I know many people love them and say they excel really good. I was just thinking if Eric did a Volt series with that CD in the coaxial setup it could be the next step up. I know there is a cost effective, still more than Volts, speaker that has a little SEOS with the DNA-360 CD and a couple mins I think. Here it is

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...ecial-kit.html

I just don't know enough to say if it will perform better as a surround just because it has better parts. It seems on paper it would. It has the same sensitivity rating as the Volt 10, better CD and dual woofers in ported enclsure. But how does the real world comparison do with the SEOS 10 instead of coaxial CD design? I don't know...I do know the coaxial designs like the Volt people love because they disperse sound very wide which cause a nice surround effect.

"I already know I like the Volt's better off axis - easily." Your words and I think from a noob standpoint this makes for a good surround speaker. It's kinda hard to justify anything else when the Volt, now Volt LX for $180 performs so well. I too would like Slanted 8 JTR's but at 1k a surround speaker? Ouch! I need to buy a lawnmower, blower, weed whacker, hose, sprinklers, built a shed in the back yard (since I'm taking garage at HT!) build a covered back patio, and you get the idea. Not to mention the actual theater room build! Good thing I have LCR each with DSI amps, two Submersives, Processor, couple Volts, Oppo, few other things. OR else this could be a many many year ride lol!

There is another Denovo FL-450 I am curious about...

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post #30989 of 31296 Old 08-25-2015, 07:07 AM
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Ok yea sounds real similar, they just freaking excelled where I had them in respect to envelopment. Like you said just behind I think is key and how I will always do it. OF course I will experiment in the final room.

So in you GTG ventures surely you have heard the Denovo DNA-360 right? I think @Sibuna has them right? I know many people love them and say they excel really good. I was just thinking if Eric did a Volt series with that CD in the coaxial setup it could be the next step up. I know there is a cost effective, still more than Volts, speaker that has a little SEOS with the DNA-360 CD and a couple mins I think. Here it is

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-th...ecial-kit.html

I just don't know enough to say if it will perform better as a surround just because it has better parts. It seems on paper it would. It has the same sensitivity rating as the Volt 10, better CD and dual woofers in ported enclsure. But how does the real world comparison do with the SEOS 10 instead of coaxial CD design? I don't know...I do know the coaxial designs like the Volt people love because they disperse sound very wide which cause a nice surround effect.

"I already know I like the Volt's better off axis - easily." Your words and I think from a noob standpoint this makes for a good surround speaker. It's kinda hard to justify anything else when the Volt, now Volt LX for $180 performs so well. I too would like Slanted 8 JTR's but at 1k a surround speaker? Ouch! I need to buy a lawnmower, blower, weed whacker, hose, sprinklers, built a shed in the back yard (since I'm taking garage at HT!) build a covered back patio, and you get the idea. Not to mention the actual theater room build! Good thing I have LCR each with DSI amps, two Submersives, Processor, couple Volts, Oppo, few other things. OR else this could be a many many year ride lol!

There is another Denovo FL-450 I am curious about...
I don't think mechanically you could hook the 360 to the coaxial drivers used in the volts, its a different design vs the one that is currently used, which screws in. The distances would all be off for the CD

interesting idea tho tossing a beefier CD on the backend of it

there is a "higher end" coaxial offered through EricH and DIYSG. its called the Concentric 8 - http://www.diysoundgroup.com/alpha-k...centric-8.html - it however does cost a bit more vs the volt series and I have no head it to compare to my volts, which I run as mains for my computer
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post #30990 of 31296 Old 08-25-2015, 07:13 AM
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Ahh my bad I thought audiolense was an automated room correction like dirac.
Audiolense is like Dirac in that measures the room and provides a convolution filter. However, I don't think there is anything wrong with calling them "EQ filters" like HTPCat did.

Quote:
I *think* the MOTU that DLBeck has will provide the same DSP functionality that Jriver/audiolense currently does, but I could be wrong.
Which is why I was hoping desertdome could clarify. This would allow you to keep Jriver as a source, add the AVR as a decoder and then allow for room correction via manual tuning (which Im ok with) in the MOTU for up to 24 channels, or skip the MOTU and have two mini-dsp dirac units if you want automated room correction with ATMOS/DTS-X.
The MOTU has 1/100th of the DSP functionality of JRiver/Audiolense. It has a high pass filter and some parametric eq filters but that is it as far as home theater goes. The rest of the DSP is only useful for mixing or recording live audio. You can't use it for crossovers since there is no low pass. I've put in a request that the MOTU add delays per channel and a low pass.
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