Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1042 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 09-06-2015, 09:17 AM
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Andrew, give them a look http://modia.com/ They used to be on Burnet Rd. and still may be........they had a specific B&W listening room last time I was in there.



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Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
I'm sure I'll start following college football eventually. I don't think it's possible to live in Austin and not.

I designed part of my room around the expectation I'd be buying 212s. I would have ended up just buying them if I hadn't been able to demo them. It just goes to show that it doesn't matter how good a speaker is, you should listen to it yourself before buying. You've saved me a lot of time and money.

Now I'm in trouble. I have no idea where to start. Audiophile speakers are a lot more expensive, harder to drive and tend not to do well behind a screen. I think I'm also limited to being able to demo B&W here in Austin.

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Old 09-06-2015, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
I have the feeling it's not about JTR but rather studio monitors in general. I don't know enough about speakers to be able to pinpoint it exactly, but I think it might be down to the treble. The JTR speakers were more laid back than what I'm used to.
Wow, laid back is a seldom heard description of JTR speakers (with the possible exception of dgage"s description of the 215RT's). Might be that the 3TX's being true Pro Monitors have a more rolled-off high end than the 212HT (I think I read that). It could also be the specific EQ setup in Kevins space, or maybe Andrew just likes a bright treble (more Klipsch like) sound?

In any case, this situation proves that an in-person demo is a very good idea.
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Old 09-06-2015, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
I'm sure I'll start following college football eventually. I don't think it's possible to live in Austin and not.

I designed part of my room around the expectation I'd be buying 212s. I would have ended up just buying them if I hadn't been able to demo them. It just goes to show that it doesn't matter how good a speaker is, you should listen to it yourself before buying. You've saved me a lot of time and money.

Now I'm in trouble. I have no idea where to start. Audiophile speakers are a lot more expensive, harder to drive and tend not to do well behind a screen. I think I'm also limited to being able to demo B&W here in Austin.
Don't get into audiophile brands. I BEG YOU NOT TO 100% write of the Noesis speaker with that higher end CD you thought you wanted. Living in Texas I know there are more that hopefully are not to far away. I know It's a big state but there were like 2-3 guys I thought were there besides Kevin. So please do yourself a favor and genuinely try to find another Noesis owner and go, drive a couple hours to do so.

Then if you still feel the same there are numerous options out there. There are a big group of us that have bought the JBL 4722 from the Pro Cinema line. I went full fan boy and snagged the Crown DSI amps which have specific presets developed at Harmon for this speaker as well as others plus ample DSP capabilities. Running active crossover network also lowers the CD crossover a bit. They definitely have a BIG in your face sound. But @carp tried them out who owns 215RT's and while he liked them he said they didn't have the upper end magic JTR's have that HE LIKES. Subjective opinions...Some people are getting the Reaction Audio speakers, some have been very pleased with a SEOS horn mounted to a Denovo DNA 360 CD in one of the offerings the DIY Sound Group offers. They have some new big speakers being released as well. Talk with @beastaudio about Danley's. He can tell you all about them and they have been developing a model specific to home theaters as use of Danley's in homes have grown. They are a little more expensive but you ca find used for better. There are many options that but up against the line of performance and sound quality vs. cost. There is a point cost line on the graph gets REALLY steep and you begin to give away your money for free.

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Old 09-06-2015, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Wow, laid back is a seldom heard description of JTR speakers (with the possible exception of dgage"s description of the 215RT's). Might be that the 3TX's being true Pro Monitors have a more rolled-off high end than the 212HT (I think I read that). It could also be the specific EQ setup in Kevins space, or maybe Andrew just likes a bright treble (more Klipsch like) sound?

In any case, this situation proves that an in-person demo is a very good idea.
Kevin do you have measurements of your FR response?

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Old 09-06-2015, 10:16 AM
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Unfortunately Modia is temporarily closed Kevin. I mentioned it in a private message before I saw your post here.

There were definitely things that Kevin's speakers were better at than the B&W speakers I heard. My speakers have very good imaging and even though I knew he was playing my disks in stereo, I had to put my ear to the center speaker to prove it wasn't on. Everything seemed effortless for his speakers whereas I'm sometimes concerned I'm going to blow my Meridian's tweeters. In fact, I shouldn't even use the word better. I don't think one speaker is better than the other. They are both exceptional speakers and in this case I think it's simply down to personal taste.

I thought I was going to have to change my boxers after watching War of the Worlds. I think this indicates that laid back may not be the best description. Neutral may have been better. My speakers are a little crisper. When playing music through my speakers, the music has a lot of movement. I'm sure that's an even worse way to describe it but I'm lacking the technical knowledge to do a better job.

There are thousands of speakers I've never heard but out of the ones I have, my 3 favorites were from Kef, Meridian and B&W. I was told yesterday that British speakers tend to be a lot brighter than American speakers. If that is true I would say RMK! has hit the nail on the head.
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Old 09-06-2015, 10:53 AM
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I do JL....either in this thread or the Marantz thread....let me see if I can find it.


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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Kevin do you have measurements of your FR response?
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinH View Post
I do JL....either in this thread or the Marantz thread....let me see if I can find it.
Is that just the left or right speaker? If it's both then it's not accurate for the treble. To get an accurate idea of what the highs are doing you have to measure the L and R separately and have both responses on the graph.

If that is just one speaker then you have a pretty nasty dip right in the "lively" sounding part of the treble.

From the looks of that though I'm guessing this is track 2, with both L and R speakers at the same time?
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
Unfortunately Modia is temporarily closed Kevin. I mentioned it in a private message before I saw your post here.

There were definitely things that Kevin's speakers were better at than the B&W speakers I heard. My speakers have very good imaging and even though I knew he was playing my disks in stereo, I had to put my ear to the center speaker to prove it wasn't on. Everything seemed effortless for his speakers whereas I'm sometimes concerned I'm going to blow my Meridian's tweeters. In fact, I shouldn't even use the word better. I don't think one speaker is better than the other. They are both exceptional speakers and in this case I think it's simply down to personal taste.

I thought I was going to have to change my boxers after watching War of the Worlds. I think this indicates that laid back may not be the best description. Neutral may have been better. My speakers are a little crisper. When playing music through my speakers, the music has a lot of movement. I'm sure that's an even worse way to describe it but I'm lacking the technical knowledge to do a better job.

There are thousands of speakers I've never heard but out of the ones I have, my 3 favorites were from Kef, Meridian and B&W. I was told yesterday that British speakers tend to be a lot brighter than American speakers. If that is true I would say RMK! has hit the nail on the head.
So, you love the sound of your Meridians but they start compressing.... do the tweeters sound stressed at levels you sometimes listen at? Or is it just when you are testing their capabilities? If it's the latter then you have your easy answer - keep what you have!
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
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So, you love the sound of your Meridians but they start compressing.... do the tweeters sound stressed at levels you sometimes listen at? Or is it just when you are testing their capabilities? If it's the latter then you have your easy answer - keep what you have!
I don't know if it had something to do with their age but I blew one of the tweeters within a week of setting them up (they are second hand.) I think my ear drums would go before the sound distorted but I'm always scared of it happening again.

I love the speakers but I want a dolby atmos theater. Meridian are dsp speakers and can't be mixed with non-meridian speakers or components. Even if Meridian go the Dolby Atmos, it would cost me 50k minimum to get there.
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
It was a pleasure to meet you too and hope you team won.

Hearing them proved to be even more important than I expected. By the time I got home I was feeling confused in a way that I didn't think possible. The system was amazing (especially the subs). The imagining was the best I've ever heard and they were so easy to listen to yet, I don't think they are for me. I didn't ever expect to be so impressed with a speaker and realize it's not what I was looking for at the same time.

I have the feeling it's not about JTR but rather studio monitors in general. I don't know enough about speakers to be able to pinpoint it exactly, but I think it might be down to the treble. The JTR speakers were more laid back than what I'm used to.
I always wonder what laid back supposed to sound like. And I've only read that in this thread.. I've tried low to high volume with music and movies searching. But there's completely nothing I can hear for me to describe as laid back. I would think there's some guys in this thread that went through speakers like Skittles would definately know what that sounds like.. But I guess to each of their own..
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Old 09-06-2015, 11:51 AM
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Carp.........left+subs, and right+subs




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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Is that just the left or right speaker? If it's both then it's not accurate for the treble. To get an accurate idea of what the highs are doing you have to measure the L and R separately and have both responses on the graph.

If that is just one speaker then you have a pretty nasty dip right in the "lively" sounding part of the treble.

From the looks of that though I'm guessing this is track 2, with both L and R speakers at the same time?
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
It was a pleasure to meet you too and hope you team won.

Hearing them proved to be even more important than I expected. By the time I got home I was feeling confused in a way that I didn't think possible. The system was amazing (especially the subs). The imagining was the best I've ever heard and they were so easy to listen to yet, I don't think they are for me. I didn't ever expect to be so impressed with a speaker and realize it's not what I was looking for at the same time.

I have the feeling it's not about JTR but rather studio monitors in general. I don't know enough about speakers to be able to pinpoint it exactly, but I think it might be down to the treble. The JTR speakers were more laid back than what I'm used to.
I'm being lazy and not carefully reading relevant posts that came before this.

Are you comparing JTR T12s to the B&W diamond tweeters?
I agree that the current B&W 80x speakers can be pretty mesmerizing, but the coax driver in the JTR HTR series actually has a very similar quality to the B&W diamond tweeters.
After a bit of EQ, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference, aside from the JTR HTR's better dynamics and more controlled directivity.

Some people prefer a more ambient speaker that fires more sound at the walls. For a surround setup, I prefer the more controlled directivity.
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Old 09-06-2015, 12:07 PM
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The Hulk scene is my go to demo for ULF, it'a 5HZ tone, you can't even hear it, just feel. I watched Fury Road last night. The movie was good but the bass wasn't anything that great IMO.... and I watching at reference with my 10dB house curve lol
Have to agree...had to keep raising MV first few minutes and was at 'reference' thru rest of movie...was expecting more lows.
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Old 09-06-2015, 01:11 PM
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I have been hugely disappointed at the live concerts I have gone to lately. The first was "The Experience Hendrix Tour" in 2014 at the Robert Mondavi Center for the Performing Arts which is a mega million engineered acoustic venue and it sounded awful. I spoke to the sound guy during a set break and he admitted it sounded bad and said the space was not properly setup for amplified music. I had seen the Chieftains (mostly acoustic) there the prior year and the sound was no better. It was so bad that I got up and walked around the hall to see if I was sitting in a bad spot. It may have been slightly better at the sound board location but still very weak. A couple of weeks ago we were in Nevada visiting family and caught a Dwight Yoakam concert (sitting 3rd row center). Dwight is a great and talented performer but the sound was mostly too loud and muddled.

Of course for most people, much of the concert experience is just being there live and taking in all of the crowd energy. That's why a lot of people here still go out to the movies. They seek a "herd experience" but for me, ... not so much.

My system is not as nearly capable at yours, but it does make me happy, blu concerts make my JTR's shine. I only have 4 concerts that stick in my mind for different reasons . ACDC for being so loud it hurt, U2 for being my first, Ted Nugent for spitting on everyone in the first row and saying at the beginning, "If anyone came here to get mellow, turn around and get the F outta here" my girlfriend left LOL, and last was Bryan Adams for being the most unbelievably loud and sounding so good at the same time. Guitar riffs went thru you. By far best all around concert Ive ever heard and that was 1985. Im not sure what the says about todays shows or if its just getting older and caring more about sound than the whole experience. I maybe over the experience after watchin Ted spit on people and need the sound

Bottom line, I am spoiled by my system and/or the fact that I was insufficiently impaired at both of these concerts (although they had some great Jack Daniels Lemonade at the the Yoakam concert ). Truth is my system's sound sound quality is the real culprit and having such a capable system, playing well recorded material which is tailored to the space and my taste, and with a remote in my hand for volume ... well it doesn't get any better than that.
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:28 PM
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Bryan Adams is great way to Cheese. I love his music but Hate to admit it
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:52 PM
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Carp.........left+subs, and right+subs
Ok, so no dip at all in the highs, everything was good to go for the demo!

Sounds like the JTR's aren't Andrew's cup of tea, nothing wrong with that. I do wonder if a little boost in the highs (above 8-10khz, not the harsher 2-4 khz stuff, I don't think anyone wants that) would have made a difference like rcohen is saying.
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Old 09-06-2015, 02:55 PM
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Have to agree...had to keep raising MV first few minutes and was at 'reference' thru rest of movie...was expecting more lows.
I'm heading to Jonathan's here in an hour or so to watch it on his just newly done Atmos setup. I'll make sure we go a little extra hot on the bass!! This movie is supposed to be the best showcase so far for Atmos, looking forward to it!
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:18 PM
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I'm heading to Jonathan's here in an hour or so to watch it on his just newly done Atmos setup. I'll make sure we go a little extra hot on the bass!! This movie is supposed to be the best showcase so far for Atmos, looking forward to it!
Yeah I think dialing the bass up may be necessary...look forward to hearing what you guys thinkm
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:41 PM
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I always wonder what laid back supposed to sound like. And I've only read that in this thread.. I've tried low to high volume with music and movies searching. But there's completely nothing I can hear for me to describe as laid back. I would think there's some guys in this thread that went through speakers like Skittles would definately know what that sounds like.. But I guess to each of their own..
As I said, I really don't know what word best describes the difference I noticed. I used the term laid back for the 212s because I felt like you could listen to them all day long without fatigue. I found the Meridian, B&W and KEF speakers to be very exciting but I'm not sure I could listen to loud music on them for 4 hours straight.

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I'm being lazy and not carefully reading relevant posts that came before this.

Are you comparing JTR T12s to the B&W diamond tweeters?
I agree that the current B&W 80x speakers can be pretty mesmerizing, but the coax driver in the JTR HTR series actually has a very similar quality to the B&W diamond tweeters.
After a bit of EQ, I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference, aside from the JTR HTR's better dynamics and more controlled directivity.

Some people prefer a more ambient speaker that fires more sound at the walls. For a surround setup, I prefer the more controlled directivity.

I actually prefer more a directive speaker so maybe It's not just a matter of taste but also that I need to seek medical help.

I was comparing the 212s to 802s/803s and 1 or 2 of my other favorite audiophile speakers. They sounded very different to me but I'm no where as near as knowledgeable about speakers as most people on the JTR thread. I just know my preferences when I hear them. I probably shouldn't say too much more as I think I'm about 1 comment away from being mistaken for a bose acoustimass lover.
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Old 09-06-2015, 03:49 PM
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Bryan Adams is great way to Cheese. I love his music but Hate to admit it
Were all friends, I can admit it, we were in HS, got 2 girls out of our league to go, all seriousness, one of the most rockin concerts I ever went to, we were shocked at the heaviness of the guitar, Its Only Love went on for 10min in the solo, not what we expected. It was pre-corny bryan adams for the record
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Old 09-06-2015, 05:12 PM
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I'm heading to Jonathan's here in an hour or so to watch it on his just newly done Atmos setup. I'll make sure we go a little extra hot on the bass!! This movie is supposed to be the best showcase so far for Atmos, looking forward to it!
+20dB on the bass??? Have fun....wish I was down there for it. Sounds like a great time. Guess I missed it....what pre/pro do you have now Archaea?
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:06 AM
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+20dB on the bass??? Have fun....wish I was down there for it. Sounds like a great time. Guess I missed it....what pre/pro do you have now Archaea?
Denon 7200 I am pretty sure. Was a replacement for his faulty 4520.

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Old 09-07-2015, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by andrewtodd View Post
As I said, I really don't know what word best describes the difference I noticed. I used the term laid back for the 212s because I felt like you could listen to them all day long without fatigue. I found the Meridian, B&W and KEF speakers to be very exciting but I'm not sure I could listen to loud music on them for 4 hours straight.




I actually prefer more a directive speaker so maybe It's not just a matter of taste but also that I need to seek medical help.

I was comparing the 212s to 802s/803s and 1 or 2 of my other favorite audiophile speakers. They sounded very different to me but I'm no where as near as knowledgeable about speakers as most people on the JTR thread. I just know my preferences when I hear them. I probably shouldn't say too much more as I think I'm about 1 comment away from being mistaken for a bose acoustimass lover.
Your opinion is just as valid as mine. Some people don't like subjective descriptions, but I think it can be helpful, combined with the objective stuff. Without the objective stuff, it's easy to go in circles.

Here's how I use the "audiophile" terms:
Smooth treble: Treble that isn't harsh/edgy/fatiguing.
Laid back treble: Upper treble rolls off to make it more smooth.
Smooth & detailed treble: Treble that is smooth despite not being rolled off. This is achieved by low distortion, especially odd-order harmonics. Also, good dynamic capability and lack of ringing can help with the detail.

Some speakers have a characteristic sound with either lacking or distorted treble.
In some speakers, it only appears at higher volumes.

Another common issue with treble is that not many tweeters are capable of high dynamics that are needed to create life-like impact. In general, higher frequencies require less energy, but dynamic peaks are the exception. This really helps to create a life-like sound.

The room also plays a big role. A room that's too reflective can make the treble sound harsh and without detail.

Once you have a speaker that has good capability in terms of frequency response, distortion, off-axis response, and dynamics, a lot of the other differences can be adjusted using a good EQ system. For me, Dirac has been great in this regard. I used to be super-concerned about a speaker's un-EQ'ed response since I hard a hard time correcting it with EQ without doing more harm than good. That hasn't been the case for me with Dirac, but not for everyone.

Anyway, I also was very impressed by 802s. In that price range for 2 channel, also check out Legacy Aeris. (I prefer the Aeris.) I just have a home theater, though, not a separate 2 channel setup. For my home theater, I prefer the 212s + 4 subs + Dirac over anything else I have heard. (I haven't heard 215s, Seatons, Danleys, or M2s.) One of the things that really impressed me with the 212s was that the treble quality was up there with the 802s and Aeris, but with better dynamics and directivity control. The remaining differences were easy to fine tine with EQ.
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Old 09-07-2015, 08:08 AM
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GTG is scheduled for next weekend. Just doing some initial listning. In multichannel stereo with only a single speaker hooked up.

Left to right. Behringer 215xl, QSC k8 (1000rms self powered active), PSA MTM210, JTR 228.

All sound good and all can play reference without breaking a sweat. I would say JTR has most mid bass and the PSA has a sweeter more rounded top end.

So far just listening to music with vocals and acoustic guitar. Up next will be short movie clips, I expect that will be a much better way to tell the difference and pick one. Can't wait till the 1099's get here to compare.

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Old 09-07-2015, 08:15 AM
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Yeah I think dialing the bass up may be necessary...look forward to hearing what you guys thinkm
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+20dB on the bass??? Have fun....wish I was down there for it. Sounds like a great time. Guess I missed it....what pre/pro do you have now Archaea?
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He has the Denon 7200. At one point I wanted the bass turned down!! My eardrums (or something in my ears) were rattling like crazy, I think it was one specific frequency at enough SPL or something, I haven't experienced that before. Fortunately it stopped happening.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:13 AM
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hehehe.


making carp say turn the bass down? classic...


He's going to sound like a lightweight here, but we know better. The nearfield subs and front bank subs were only 4dB hot over reference as calibrated by audyssey multieq xt32 on my Denon x7200wa. So both banks together would be +6-+7 dB hot over reference flat. Not that hot - but the movie seems to have a LOT of 30hz'ish bass. Lots of explosions, lots of car engines revving and pretty much non stop bass. It's simply an adrenaline junkie audio festival. Way over the top and a lot of fun. The nearfield subs can pummel you as they are placed right up against the back of the chair.


My co-worker also came over and carp said can you edge the bass volume down a bit, and my co-worker yelled something like "NO - DON'T TOUCH IT. This is a really great experience for me, I LOVE IT"


Ha!


Overall a very good audio disk, one of my new favorite disks for audio.


Atmos is done well on it.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:28 AM
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hehehe.


making carp say turn the bass down? classic...


He's going to sound like a lightweight here, but we know better. The nearfield subs and front bank subs were only 4dB hot over reference as calibrated by audyssey multieq xt32 on my Denon x7200wa. So both banks together would be +6-+7 dB hot over reference flat. Not that hot - but the movie seems to have a LOT of 30hz'ish bass. Lots of explosions, lots of car engines revving and pretty much non stop bass. It's simply an adrenaline junkie audio festival. Way over the top and a lot of fun. The nearfield subs can pummel you as they are placed right up against the back of the chair.


My co-worker also came over and carp said can you edge the bass volume down a bit, and my co-worker yelled something like "NO - DON'T TOUCH IT. This is a really great experience for me, I LOVE IT"


Ha!


Overall a very good audio disk, one of my new favorite disks for audio.


Atmos is done well on it.

Haha, part of that was for his benefit. He was making comments that his teeth were vibrating and I thought he meant that as a negative thing.

Mostly it was because of the inner ear rattly thing that I had going on a couple of times. That and I'm getting old.

BTW, he wasn't exaggerating, my teeth were vibrating too.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:39 AM
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Haha, part of that was for his benefit. He was making comments that his teeth were vibrating and I thought he meant that as a negative thing.

Mostly it was because of the inner ear rattly thing that I had going on a couple of times. That and I'm getting old.

BTW, he wasn't exaggerating, my teeth were vibrating too.
I wonder what the resonate frequency of teeth is? ...

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Old 09-07-2015, 10:48 AM
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I wonder what the resonate frequency of teeth is? ...
Ha, not sure but I seriously have noticed my bite changing slightly for a few days after some crazy GTG's. Not kidding. I'm sure that's fine....
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:51 AM
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Ha, not sure but I seriously have noticed my bite changing slightly for a few days after some crazy GTG's. Not kidding. I'm sure that's fine....
You know, there was a saying back in the 60's-70's that seems applicable. "It's time to put down the pipe".
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