Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1045 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 09-11-2015, 06:18 PM
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I don't understand why Gooddoc had such a 180 and hates JTR so much. He pretty much just comes on to whine and tell everyone how good his JBL's are now. I used to like the guy, now hes just a JBL forum troll. I think he seems to forget that no one on here gives a flying crap about his M2's lol

I read that thread Archaea, it's an epic facepalm on Mfusick, pretty much made himself look like a total tool.... lol

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Old 09-11-2015, 09:33 PM
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^^I've never gotten the impression gooddoc hates JTR. He's found a more satisfying speaker for himself...one that I also like a lot myself. But he's good people.
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Old 09-11-2015, 10:09 PM
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I'm not entirely sure as to why he even brought my post up since he didn't directly reply to it after he quoted it?

Regardless, I don't understand how my comment could be faulted to begin with as I never once stated measurements are bad. What I stated is that measurements are pointless without a set standard.

The way it sits now, company A can make measurements in an anechoic and company B could do one in a 5x5' room. What's the point in that?
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Old 09-11-2015, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I don't understand why Gooddoc had such a 180 and hates JTR so much. He pretty much just comes on to whine and tell everyone how good his JBL's are now. I used to like the guy, now hes just a JBL forum troll. I think he seems to forget that no one on here gives a flying crap about his M2's lol

I read that thread Archaea, it's an epic facepalm on Mfusick, pretty much made himself look like a total tool.... lol
Yikes!
A hint of angst over Gooddoc. =)
Im sure the M2's are fantastic, but so are my 215's!
My turn to say "Chill" =P
Don't feed the trolls!

I was actually just listening to some sound tracks that my drummer friend recorded (he eq'ed them) and he was quite impressed by the JTR sound as well.

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Old 09-11-2015, 11:50 PM
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Simply because when you are called out onto the carpet publically - I think you should know about it...Post 42
@DotJun @RMK @stitch1 @countryWV @jbrown15 @Freakquency @Jeff Permanian @Frank D @Brian Fineberg

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2128818-can-klipsch-speaker-actually-meet-s-specs-no-can-t.html

I responded, because the onesided context REALLY frustrates me!
You fight that good fight Jonathan ... I find myself using the ignore feature more than ever and that kind of bothers me. It's a hobby damn it and it should be fun to discuss the products and the science. Think I need a little break from the forum to clear out my head.

On a happier note, the wife talked me into going to RMAF so that I can hang with DD and JP for bit. Maybe even give a listen to a few other brands that I will never own but would like to hear.
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I don't understand why Gooddoc had such a 180 and hates JTR so much. He pretty much just comes on to whine and tell everyone how good his JBL's are now. I used to like the guy, now hes just a JBL forum troll. I think he seems to forget that no one on here gives a flying crap about his M2's lol

I read that thread Archaea, it's an epic facepalm on Mfusick, pretty much made himself look like a total tool.... lol
Nope, I didn't forget . The difference between you and me is that I could care less whether you care about my M2's, but you seem offended I prefer the JBL's over my former JTR's. But let's be clear, I've never said a negative thing about JTR speakers. Primarily because I think they're great speakers. I disagree with some in this thread regarding measurements, including Jeff, but that doesn't mean I dislike him or anyone else over the issue, even if the discussion got heated. I don't hold grudges on these forums because I know from experience that most all the issues arise because we're communicating by text and things get misinterpreted and twisted so easily. Heck, in a few days I'm sure I'm going to care less that you insulted me, I'll be over it, and we might be engaging in a good discussion on a different topic. But for now, before you start calling people tools for being dishonest perhaps you should try and find the posts that back up your claim I'm a JTR hater and then when that comes up empty take a look in the mirror.

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Old 09-12-2015, 02:07 AM
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Old 09-12-2015, 03:14 AM
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I just e-mailed to Thomas the two (anonymous) concerns from above, i.e., the wrinkling, and the cheap frame. I'll let you know if he responds in a positive fashion, or not. I suppose it could go one of two ways: 1) He could be genuinely interested in producing a quality product, and will welcome the feedback; or, 2) He couldn't care less, and might just say, "This is what I have... take it or leave it!" (and then go off mumbling about another Ugly American...)

I'll keep you posted on any response that I receive.

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So if someone buys a speaker from a manufacturer the provides the most detailed specs and measurments possible then you measure the speakers independently and the specs/measurements don't come close to matching, then what? Are they still better because the factory specs say so?😕
Then we sigh in relief that a company in America in near 2016 doesn't have false advertising. We become even more confident in JTR as a solid speaker company. It stems from what tux measured in that the Klipsch specs were no where close to advertised.
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Old 09-12-2015, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I don't understand why Gooddoc had such a 180 and hates JTR so much. He pretty much just comes on to whine and tell everyone how good his JBL's are now. I used to like the guy, now hes just a JBL forum troll. I think he seems to forget that no one on here gives a flying crap about his M2's lol

I read that thread Archaea, it's an epic facepalm on Mfusick, pretty much made himself look like a total tool.... lol
Ive got to say unless I missed something in my 5 month hiatus in my gaming I have never seen Doc act as such. Mfusick comes with razor blades on his elbows like Dennis Rodman boxing out for a rebound (Although the goal of his argument is valid) but Doc has always been respectful I think. Even if the measurement subject comes up again I don't think he or anyone is out of line for posting truth. Even if it is tiresome to the masses. I think he still owns his 212's yes?

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Old 09-12-2015, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Simply because when you are called out onto the carpet publically - I think you should know about it...Post 42
@DotJun @RMK @stitch1 @countryWV @jbrown15 @Freakquency @Jeff Permanian @Frank D @Brian Fineberg

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2128818-can-klipsch-speaker-actually-meet-s-specs-no-can-t.html

I responded, because the onesided context REALLY frustrates me!
I saw that when it was posted but decided to concede a battle of words with such a Cowardly Internet Bully like he is. His mouth is clearly writing checks his A$$ can't cash so there are No words that will prevent this.

Chris
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:12 AM
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My point is that mfusick's position that measurements should be public is valid (IMO) but his personal vendetta against JTR is the problem..
I completely agree with this^^^

The problem was his posting style made him come off like a D!ck . The subject content was lost on his inability to talk to others properly. An intelligent post by a D!ck will always be just that.

Chris
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:21 AM
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Ive got to say unless I missed something in my 5 month hiatus in my gaming I have never seen Doc act as such. Mfusick comes with razor blades on his elbows like Dennis Rodman boxing out for a rebound (Although the goal of his argument is valid) but Doc has always been respectful I think. Even if the measurement subject comes up again I don't think he or anyone is out of line for posting truth. Even if it is tiresome to the masses. I think he still owns his 212's yes?
This is correct ^^^ @Gooddoc posts are very informative making him a positive member of the AVS society. He catches flack b/c of who he choses to enable.

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Old 09-12-2015, 07:48 AM
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Mfusick was never on the audio forums a year ago. I spend way too much time here and have done so for many, many years even before I signed up in 2003 I was a lurker for a long time and in all those years I never saw him. I have been told he was king of the HTPC forum up until 9 months or so ago.

Anyway, the first time I ever saw him was when he was on the list to go to Andrew's last GTG (Gorilla83) this last winter. The guys I know that were there say he seemed nice enough but it was hard to tell because he was a very quiet guy so not much was thought of it until after the GTG was over and for days he ripped the setup of the GTG (can anyone imagine doing this after someone invites you into their home, feeds you, gives you beer, gives you access to hear multiple expensive speakers, etc. ?) WHAT THE HELL....

Since then he has been everywhere, and I mean everywhere in the audio forums. I think I post a lot and spend too much time here but he makes me feel like I'm normal - haha, not a chance of that though....

Back to JTR. Here is what I think happened.

1. He has always had a big problem with speaker companies not providing measurements of their speakers. The more he learns about the science of audio the more it angers him that in 2015 we still have speaker companies that don't do this. Unacceptable.

2. He goes to a GTG at Andrew's and hears some speakers. One set of speakers from a company called JTR do not sound good to him.

3. He realizes through the GTG thread that this JTR company has a lot of positive buzz on his beloved forum.

4. He goes to the JTR site looking for measurments... sure enough, like many others there are none. What?!?!?! How can all these idiots like these speakers that he didn't like and the company doesn't even post measurements!!! These people have all drunk the JTR kool-aid and the gushing subjective reviews that are all over this forum and causing people to have a pre-conceived notion before they hear JTR's that they will sound great, and so when they do hear them they really believe that they sound great - even though he knows first hand that they aren't all that.

5. It's time to help these people. They will be shown the light that the emperor has no clothes. Sure, many speaker companies don't post measurements but none seem to have the positive buzz that the JTR company does and these ignorant people need his help. Yes indeed, he will set his sights on JTR.


That's my theory anyway. I have no problem with his wanting companies to show their measurements. I would love that! My problem is that he is trying to take down a company. I know that is a strong statement but it has to be true with post after post, thread after thread, month after month, of JTR bashing.

That post of Jonathan's shows how he will partially quote, mis-quote, misrepresent etc. whatever it takes to make JTR look bad.

His past comments like, "JTR represents everything that is wrong with avs forum" and "the JTR 215 is an offensive design" are just 2 very small examples of his literally hundreds of posts that mention JTR in a negative light. Some in room threads, some in speaker owner threads, most in diy threads but the comments are everywhere.

It's clear he won't stop. He PM'd me an apology after I posted some of his negative JTR comments and said he wouldn't do it anymore. He can't help himself. He'll stop for a week - at the most - and then he's back at it again.

I know it's silly to even care... but it sucks because 1 guy has taken a lot of the fun out of the forum.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:41 AM
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With Gooddoc, I think his enthusiasm for the M2s combined with their high price just rubbed some people the wrong way.
It can come across as snobbery if you can't afford them.
I'm guilty of the same thing about my stuff, and I'm sure that I've made people feel the same.

It's fun to be enthusiastic when you find something really special, but many perceive it as losing objectivity.
You can't win.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:41 AM
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@carp

Dude You hit the nail on the head.
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Old 09-12-2015, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
With Gooddoc, I think his enthusiasm for the M2s combined with their high price just rubbed some people the wrong way.
It can come across as snobbery if you can't afford them.
I'm guilty of the same thing about my stuff, and I'm sure that I've made people feel the same.

It's fun to be enthusiastic when you find something really special, but many perceive it as losing objectivity.
You can't win.
You know, it's funny because I literally just sold my CHT speakers and was just as enthusiastic about them when I got them. Totally opposite from my M2's. Cheap as dirt, no measurements, small company and the owner was a jerk. What's funny about it is that I caught a lot of flak for liking them too, but for exactly the opposite reasons. They were really just a DIY design with off the shelf parts sold commercially. At that time I didn't know any better and I was pretty stubbornly against the criticisms leveled against them. After all, they sounded GREAT to me. I know in hindsight those folks criticizing and asking for measurements were correct, I just didn't have the knowledge to see it. Would I buy those speakers today? No, because I learned from that experience that great sound to my ears doesn't guarantee a great speaker. Had I demanded measurements and knew how to read them (didn't ask, didn't know, and didn't think it really mattered), I would have never purchased them.

With the M2's they measure great, sound great, are made by a great company. Sure I'm enthusiastic about them. But I dont go around these forums bashing JTR or other speakers. Unless of course you look at talking about measurements bashing speakers, than I'm guilty as charged.

Personally and professionally I have a great deal of respect for Jeff, even though I disagree with his position about measurements. I can separate those two, but it seems some can't understand that distinction.

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Old 09-12-2015, 10:43 AM
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My ultimate question. What if a speaker measures great. And just sound terrible in your room? Do you keep them cause well after all they measure great?!
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:37 AM
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My ultimate question. What if a speaker measures great. And just sound terrible in your room? Do you keep them cause well after all they measure great?!
It's not so simple as that because there are multiple factors at play. I could give a long explanation about all those factors, but I think it's a far simpler answer just to say that if the measurements show inaccuracies, then it's low fidelity and if you care about high fidelity reproduction then it's never going to be that, no matter what room it's placed in. Bottom line, no debate about that. The only debate is whether or not that matters to you. But it can't be both ways where you say you care about accuracy but don't care if the speaker measures accurately. That's simply an illogical position.

Of course a room can impact a speakers SQ for various reasons, but I would rather fix my room than buy an inaccurate speaker. Also, accuracy as defined by measurements doesn't guarantee someone will prefer a speaker, so that's why I suggest finding the most accurate speakers you can in a price range you can afford and then choosing the one you subjectively prefer most amongst them - if you value reproduction fidelity. There are speaker qualities that don't have measurements attached to them yet, and directivity characteristics that can make one speaker a better fit for your room, so there is some intelligence and even subjectivity that has to be applied to the process.

But I'll end by repeating that the fidelity of a speakers reproduction is inextricably tied to measurements and poor measurements means poor fidelity, not sure how anyone could think differently. If fidelity doesn't matter to you then of course there is nothing to discuss and just go out and buy whatever sounds good to you.
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
It's not so simple as that because there are multiple factors at play. I could give a long explanation about all those factors, but I think it's a far simpler answer just to say that if the measurements show inaccuracies, then it's low fidelity and if you care about high fidelity reproduction then it's never going to be that, no matter what room it's placed in. Bottom line, no debate about that. The only debate is whether or not that matters to you. But it can't be both ways where you say you care about accuracy but don't care if the speaker measures accurately. That's simply an illogical position.

Of course a room can impact a speakers SQ for various reasons, but I would rather fix my room than buy an inaccurate speaker. Also, accuracy as defined by measurements doesn't guarantee someone will prefer a speaker, so that's why I suggest finding the most accurate speakers you can in a price range you can afford and then choosing the one you subjectively prefer most amongst them - if you value reproduction fidelity. There are speaker qualities that don't have measurements attached to them yet, and directivity characteristics that can make one speaker a better fit for your room, so there is some intelligence and even subjectivity that has to be applied to the process.

But I'll end by repeating that the fidelity of a speakers reproduction is inextricably tied to measurements and poor measurements means poor fidelity, not sure how anyone could think differently. If fidelity doesn't matter to you then of course there is nothing to discuss and just go out and buy whatever sounds good to you.
Thanks for the explain action. Not sure if the you in your Statement is directed at me or the collective "you" but I never said anything about not caring if a speaker measures accurately or not.

I was just playing devils advocate. If someone doesn't like the sound of an accurate speaker (or equipment for that matter I.e. Tube amps which color the sound) and loves the way a less than accurate speaker sounds. Does that make them wrong?

If a dish is made of the best ingredients prepared in the most perfect way possible. But it doesn't taste good to me...guess what I'm lot buying it lol
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:53 AM
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Thanks for the explain action. Not sure if the you in your Statement is directed at me or the collective "you" but I never said anything about not caring if a speaker measures accurately or not.

I was just playing devils advocate. If someone doesn't like the sound of an accurate speaker (or equipment for that matter I.e. Tube amps which color the sound) and loves the way a less than accurate speaker sounds. Does that make them wrong?

If a dish is made of the best ingredients prepared in the most perfect way possible. But it doesn't taste good to me...guess what I'm lot buying it lol
No, just a collective "you" And no, preferring an inaccurate speaker doesn't make them wrong. As I said, if accuracy doesn't matter to "someone" , then there is no point in even measuring anything at all. Untold millions of Bose owners can't be wrong. Individual preference is what it is.

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Old 09-12-2015, 11:59 AM
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No, just a collective "you" And no, preferring an inaccurate speaker doesn't make them wrong. As I said, if accuracy doesn't matter to "someone" , then there is no point in even measuring anything at all. Untold millions of Bose owners can't be wrong. Individual preference is what it is.
Haha

Like I Said I agree with the whole argument of the speakers should measure accurate. 100%
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:05 PM
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Nope, I didn't forget . The difference between you and me is that I could care less whether you care about my M2's, but you seem offended I prefer the JBL's over my former JTR's. But let's be clear, I've never said a negative thing about JTR speakers. Primarily because I think they're great speakers. I disagree with some in this thread regarding measurements, including Jeff, but that doesn't mean I dislike him or anyone else over the issue, even if the discussion got heated. I don't hold grudges on these forums because I know from experience that most all the issues arise because we're communicating by text and things get misinterpreted and twisted so easily. Heck, in a few days I'm sure I'm going to care less that you insulted me, I'll be over it, and we might be engaging in a good discussion on a different topic. But for now, before you start calling people tools for being dishonest perhaps you should try and find the posts that back up your claim I'm a JTR hater and then when that comes up empty take a look in the mirror.

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Gimme a break man.... You can come on here, whining about the lack of measurements, making fun of guys in the thread on the other thread and expect to not look like a troll?

Ever since Fusick got on this thread, you've been his yes man, it's pretty sad, you follow him around "ya boss, sure boss... the measurements.... the measurements.... we NEED them" lol

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Old 09-12-2015, 12:23 PM
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Haha

Like I Said I agree with the whole argument of the speakers should measure accurate. 100%
Me as well. The big deal is that for a speaker to measure accurate, have great dispersion patterns, be a design that doesn't hurt itself (like an MTM with woofers physically separated too far causing natural physics to have a dip in FR response like Bill F stated in that Klipsch thread), all of the characteristics to come together to produce a great FR response on and off axis, have good dispersion, bass extension, etc. It's a design of tradeoffs is what speaker design is. Many people don't understand that and many companies market like their products are not subject to the laws of physics (oh God I sound like Bill ) and are "super speakers." This is the whole push for measurements because it shows us what the tradeoffs are, it shows us the characteristics of a speaker on paper which DIRECTLY correlates to how it will sound and how it will perform in our room and if it will meet your specific set of needs in the design such speaker is. Most people think Tonal characteristic of a speaker is the end all when in fact it's secondary. I too am coming through a revelation in understanding on this. I love the JBL 4722's I just got running active off DSi Crown amps. I said after subjective listening that while they are great I think they may never have the ability to make me head over heels in love with my sound in my completed theater. I was challenged by several that my thinking was wrong, that in fact once I get my baffle wall built, and room carefully and scientifically treated that in fact it will clean up areas oh FR response, modal ringing and the time domain of bass decay which will have 100% direct effects on how the speaker sounds to me. I accepted my wrong thinking and am beginning to understand more. Now sure it may still not hit the nail on the head 100% so then I can go out and buy the D2 compression Driver in the M2 and install them Or another CD upgrade for some little extra sweetness. I played a 16khz sine wave other day and could hardly hear it so...

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Old 09-12-2015, 12:32 PM
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Don't go off half cocked people... or fully cocked.... maybe not cocked at all....

I do agree that speaker manufacturers should post measurements and in that thread the JTR thread is getting the impression that all the regulars here don't know anything about... well anything.... like a bunch of flat earth society people.

My point is that mfusick's position that measurements should be public is valid (IMO) but his personal vendetta against JTR is the problem.

Jonathan's post is spot freaking on btw.
Anyone have a spare flamesuit?
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Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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Old 09-12-2015, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
I've thought about a Triple 10 however the Triple 8 and Triple 12 are already so close in output. All ready on the R&D table is the new Growler/Capitvator driver, all new Triple 12 and the Quintuple.


When you say Growler/Captivator driver are you referring to the less powerful 18" driver for the proposed Cap 218 or a more powerful driver to be used in an potential Cap 2400 using the updated ICE Power 1200ASC2 Amplifier modules coming in Fall of 2015?



Inquiring minds want to know ...

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Old 09-12-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Gimme a break man.... You can come on here, whining about the lack of measurements, making fun of guys in the thread on the other thread and expect to not look like a troll?

Ever since Fusick got on this thread, you've been his yes man, it's pretty sad, you follow him around "ya boss, sure boss... the measurements.... the measurements.... we NEED them" lol
I could care less what you think. I support people when I think they're right, I got over the "follow the crowd" thing after high school. I'm also not into personal attacks over disagreements of audio issues. I've found that the ability to separate the two is usually directly related to intellect and maturity.
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Old 09-12-2015, 01:26 PM
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soooooo anyway... finally got my S2's hooked up and kickin a$$...

everything in my room was literally shaking during a couple scenes I tested out. I mean walls, fridge, ceiling, entire upstairs floor (whoops). I'm actually now afraid to watch Mad Max haha.

Anyone have any quick suggestions as to how to combat some of the vibrations that my overhead light bulbs seem to be getting? I've seen that acoustic putty for outlets, but would that work around a light bulb?
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Old 09-12-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I could care less what you think. I support people when I think they're right, I got over the "follow the crowd" thing after high school. I'm also not into personal attacks over disagreements of audio issues. I've found that the ability to separate the two is usually directly related to intellect and maturity.
Oh, so you're a rebel?

And personal attacks? quit being such a drama queen. I can send you a snickers if you want.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 09-12-2015, 01:30 PM
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my last post just reminded me of this video haha. go to 1:57 for a quick reference of what watching the black hole scene in Interstellar felt like :

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Old 09-12-2015, 01:33 PM
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Another great track to demo or enjoy .
From the Jon Hopkins album Insides.
Its titled Vessel and it fills the room and hits really hard.
I wont play it without the album-intro called The wilder sun,
Which has a kind melancholy to it.
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