Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1054 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:42 PM
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Thanks for the answers...would I know if I'm not getting full headroom by clipping of amp or processor ? Or does the headroom just get rolled off on a loud seen. You are getting 20 dub headroom and let's say I have 6 db. This mean that explosions for me only go 6 db above and I loose anything over that or it doesn't work this way?
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:34 PM
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Interesting read. Do you have a post somewhere of how your Triad Platinum's compared to your JTR 212? If not please send me a pm if you do not want to post here.
I have the previous generation 212HTs, with the metal horns and coaxes, so it's hard to know how much of this applies to the latest models.

Overall, I preferred the 212s, and those are the speakers I kept.
The Plats are great sounding speakers, but I felt the 212s were more lifelike and exciting, and thrived on more styles of music.
The midrange and treble on the 212s are so real and dynamic, it's just stunning.
In particular, I couldn't get the treble on the Plats to compare to the 212s, regardless of what I did with EQ.
The Plats have treble that rolls off like many soft dome audiophile speakers, and if you try to boost it, they get harsh.
On the other hand, I felt that the mid bass was more composed and articulate on the Plats in my room.
I'm not sure why - perhaps because they are sealed, or perhaps because of the driver arrangement.
This might be something that has been improved with the newer JTR models.
I had to cross my subs up at 120hz to be really satisfied with the bass with the 212s, but my subs handle that well, so that actually worked out great for me.
It might be more of a concern mixing 212s with 18" subs that require a lower crossover point.
It sounds like the bottom end of the new 212s has been improved, so these issues may not apply.
For people with subs, I suspect that the 215RMs may be the best choice, but I would follow whatever Jeff recommends.

A couple more minor notes:
Dirac gave me a dramatic improvement with both the Plats and the 212s. I tried the free demo, then realized I couldn't live without it.
I tried a couple different amps with both speakers: a Parasound A51 and Hypex NC400 mono blocks.
The Plats sounded better with he NC400s, but I felt the 212s sounded better with the A51.
The 212s had a bit of an edge to it with the NC400s, but that went away with he A51, even with the same target curve.
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Old 10-02-2015, 09:17 PM
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Just curious if you also did any pre and post dirac measurements for fr and impulse response? It might help determine what is going on and also start to build coorelation between what you subjectively prefer and how it measures.
Did some more testing tonight.

I did not cut off my DIRAC eq at 500 hz but I did modify my target curve to remove the DIRAC frequency adjustments from about 500 hz to 1500 hz and now with DIRAC and my modded target curve I am getting much better sound than without DIRAC. Basically where my frequency dipped I just dipped the target curve so that DIRAC made minimal or no adjustment to that area. I mainly did this as I still wanted some control of the upper end to give it a downward slope.

I do have some measurements before and after DIRAC but at the end if it does not sound right then I trust my ears as the final say. The more testing I do the more I feel that from about 500 hz and below adjustment is needed to flatten out the frequency response curve but from about 500 hz and above sometimes changing the frequency response curve to make it flat sounds worse. In other words below 400 hz or 500 hz you adjusting for room effects but above you are changing the sound of your speaker.

DIRAC definitely makes the whole sound from all speakers sound much better. Impulse and phase adjustments that DIRAC does must help in that area quite a bit.
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by drpete12 View Post
Thanks for the answers...would I know if I'm not getting full headroom by clipping of amp or processor ? Or does the headroom just get rolled off on a loud seen. You are getting 20 dub headroom and let's say I have 6 db. This mean that explosions for me only go 6 db above and I loose anything over that or it doesn't work this way?
It depends on the equipmentand whether you have clip indicators.

The headroom does work as you describe with transients (explosions), but you may have all the headroom you need depending on how loud you are playing. If at or below reference, the JTR's probably require less than 2 watts in most set ups, so even if you have a 200 watt amp you still have 20dB of headroom. This is a general statement but you can actually get a decent approximation of your set up based on speaker sensitivity, # of speakers and listening distance.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
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Old 10-03-2015, 05:12 AM
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I'm waiting for my new processor but once it comes I can hook it up and run room eq wizard. If I play a scene at a loud volume (but one I would normally listen at) I should get a db value. Could I do the math and see what headroom I have?

Don't know how to do this math but can figure it out. In theory I'm thinking i can do this and figure out how much wattage I use.

As most of us I am always on the quest to get that last little but great sound.

Thanks guys
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Old 10-03-2015, 05:19 AM
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you can even get a really good approximation now. When I fill in the calc for my subs I get within 1dB of what we measured with REW!

Which speakers are you running, how far is the MLP from them, how many watts are you using for the sats and subs?
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Old 10-03-2015, 05:19 AM
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you can even get a really good approximation now. When I fill in the calc for my subs I get within 1dB of what we measured with REW!

Which speakers are you running, how far is the MLP from them, how many watts are you using for the sats and subs?
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Old 10-03-2015, 05:41 AM
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mlp is brought 12 feet away from LCR. I am running triple 12s across front and triple 8s for side and back surrounds. Will be adding 4 atmos ceiling speakers in a few weeks. Subs I am running two stacks of seaton f2's (master and slave as one stack two of these) and have three seaton f18's coming in a few weeks.

Have the new marinate 8802a coming in a week or so and ordered two minidsp 88a's to run it all dirac.

Atmos speakers will be Seaton passive sparks.

my amp so far is the outlaw 7900, it says 300 watts at 8 ohm so I figure 400-450 at 4 ohm

Hope this info helps...would love your opinions on this setup and any suggestion you might have

thanks
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:07 AM
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ok that is going to be a fantastic set up and although I don't own any Seaton product, every time I have heard them the are really really good! As far as SPL, for reference levels you want 105dB peaks for the mains and 115dB peaks for the subs (if running a flat curve). I estimate you will be able to hit about +10dB with no distortion at all. The mains should each be able to hit 118dB each. I don't know the specs on the subs but considering some of these will likely be corner loaded I will go out on a limb and say you will likely hit 130dB of bass output. SO again +10dB over reference with a healthy house curve for the bass looks possible.

This plus the sparks for atmos will be stellar. My advise is if you are not already familiar with REW, then start using it more. If you are familiar then you probably already know how much insight you can get from detailed measurements, especially for FR, IR and decay times. I look at the set up like a big sculpture. You have lots of material to work with and REW and DSP can really bring it into shape!

Look forward to hearing your impressions as you get this set up.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:14 AM
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ok that is going to be a fantastic set up and although I don't own any Seaton product, every time I have heard them the are really really good! As far as SPL, for reference levels you want 105dB peaks for the mains and 115dB peaks for the subs (if running a flat curve). I estimate you will be able to hit about +10dB with no distortion at all. The mains should each be able to hit 118dB each. I don't know the specs on the subs but considering some of these will likely be corner loaded I will go out on a limb and say you will likely hit 130dB of bass output. SO again +10dB over reference with a healthy house curve for the bass looks possible.

This plus the sparks for atmos will be stellar. My advise is if you are not already familiar with REW, then start using it more. If you are familiar then you probably already know how much insight you can get from detailed measurements, especially for FR, IR and decay times. I look at the set up like a big sculpture. You have lots of material to work with and REW and DSP can really bring it into shape!

Look forward to hearing your impressions as you get this set up.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:16 AM
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Thx for running the calculations for me. I have rew and the umik mic. Just haven't played with it yet. Everything is torn apart now as I wait for processors. I will keep u informed as I go. Thx
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:30 AM
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Man, Age of Ultron is quiet! :-(
Yeah it wasnt very loud at all.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:46 AM
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Lbrown. Few questions for you. Why did you go lab gruppen vs qsc or crown? Also specs on your 10000 say it is four channel but can be run in three channel. How is this done. Are two channels bridge and the other two single? Or is there a switch that puts it in three channel mode with equal power to all three?

Where did you buy yours? Can't really find any places that sell new ones

Thanks

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Old 10-03-2015, 06:57 AM
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Yeah I really like the LG. Not only does it put out massive power but it has really good voltage protection limits. I just run three channels in 4 ohm and the 4th channel is idle. You can run two of the channels in bridged mode it you want but since it already puts out 2100 watts each I don't see the need with the T12 or Noesis 212. I am not an amp expert so maybe someone will chime in but I suspect if you are running 3 channels the power supply has less demands on it than running 4 channels, although again with 2100 watts probably doesn't mean much in our applications.

I searched ebay for several months before buying the one I have. I found one that was used in HT (not used as a touring amp). I got it for $3200 so it was about half off brand new list price. The fan noise is a little loud so I have it behind my equipment rack in the other room. I personally would not want it in room. The fan is always on but even running it hard for extended periods it runs really cool doesn't even get warm. I have run it all the way until the VPL clip lights started to flicker and it still sounded perfect to those of us in the room although our ears could only take that for about half a song!

I have also heard good things about some of the QSC and Crown models. Personally I always wanted an LG or Powersoft.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:58 AM
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Yeah I really like the LG. Not only does it put out massive power but it has really good voltage protection limits. I just run three channels in 4 ohm and the 4th channel is idle. You can run two of the channels in bridged mode it you want but since it already puts out 2100 watts each I don't see the need with the T12 or Noesis 212. I am not an amp expert so maybe someone will chime in but I suspect if you are running 3 channels the power supply has less demands on it than running 4 channels, although again with 2100 watts probably doesn't mean much in our applications.

I searched ebay for several months before buying the one I have. I found one that was used in HT (not used as a touring amp). I got it for $3200 so it was about half off brand new list price. The fan noise is a little loud so I have it behind my equipment rack in the other room. I personally would not want it in room. The fan is always on but even running it hard for extended periods it runs really cool doesn't even get warm. I have run it all the way until the VPL clip lights started to flicker and it still sounded perfect to those of us in the room although our ears could only take that for about half a song!

I have also heard good things about some of the QSC and Crown models. Personally I always wanted an LG or Powersoft.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:58 AM
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sorry about all the double posts my browser is sucking today!
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Old 10-03-2015, 07:09 AM
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Do t worry about the double posts. I have to read things twice before they sink in
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Old 10-03-2015, 07:09 AM
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sorry about all the double posts my browser is sucking today!
No it's a glitch in Avs. Not just you
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Old 10-03-2015, 07:25 AM
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Lbrown. Few questions for you. Why did you go lab gruppen vs qsc or crown? Also specs on your 10000 say it is four channel but can be run in three channel. How is this done. Are two channels bridge and the other two single? Or is there a switch that puts it in three channel mode with equal power to all three?

Where did you buy yours? Can't really find any places that sell new ones

Thanks

(God I hate this hobby. It's gonna be my downfall ������)
If you decide to go with an amp you should consider this http://www.d-sonic.net/products/mult...el-amplifiers/

Many of us on this thread will Testify to the quality and performance of D-Sonic with Home Theater. The watts per channel double at 4ohm except for the 1500 which goes to 2400 wpc @ 4ohm. No Fans!!
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:30 AM
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212HT guys...which has worked better for you...corner placed/loaded or away from wall (and how much if it made a diff)? I'm not sure which I prefer or measures better in my room yet.
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Old 10-03-2015, 10:53 AM
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mlp is brought 12 feet away from LCR. I am running triple 12s across front and triple 8s for side and back surrounds. Will be adding 4 atmos ceiling speakers in a few weeks. Subs I am running two stacks of seaton f2's (master and slave as one stack two of these) and have three seaton f18's coming in a few weeks.

Have the new marinate 8802a coming in a week or so and ordered two minidsp 88a's to run it all dirac.

Atmos speakers will be Seaton passive sparks.

my amp so far is the outlaw 7900, it says 300 watts at 8 ohm so I figure 400-450 at 4 ohm

Hope this info helps...would love your opinions on this setup and any suggestion you might have

thanks
Holy S!#t drpete, you are gonna have some serious subwooferage going on there. 4 f2's, and 3 f18's. That's a top notch set-up all around. I have a 88a and I'll be interested in how you get 2 of them set-up...there's aren't that many folks that have 2 but there are a couple. If you haven't looked, the 88a thread is a wealth of information.

Nabs17
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Old 10-03-2015, 11:34 AM
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212HT guys...which has worked better for you...corner placed/loaded or away from wall (and how much if it made a diff)? I'm not sure which I prefer or measures better in my room yet.
I preferred them in the corners and toed in.
That eliminated some cancellation issues with the back and side walls and widened the soundstage.
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Old 10-03-2015, 12:00 PM
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I wanted to see if anyone had this problem or knows how to fix it. I have 2 dedicated 20a lines for each of my subs. So I plugged in each of my subs to their dedicated power outlet and then I plugged in the sub cables and I am getting a loud hum. I tried a few things and nothing. So I put on cheater plugs and they are now silent. I have read about this before as ground loop, but never had the problem so I have never followed up on it. Where do I start to find the problem? I mean it is brand new electric, this is the first time I have ever plugged anything into these outlets. Is this something serious? Like I said they only buzz when plugged into the AVR.
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Old 10-03-2015, 12:21 PM
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I wanted to see if anyone had this problem or knows how to fix it. I have 2 dedicated 20a lines for each of my subs. So I plugged in each of my subs to their dedicated power outlet and then I plugged in the sub cables and I am getting a loud hum. I tried a few things and nothing. So I put on cheater plugs and they are now silent. I have read about this before as ground loop, but never had the problem so I have never followed up on it. Where do I start to find the problem? I mean it is brand new electric, this is the first time I have ever plugged anything into these outlets. Is this something serious? Like I said they only buzz when plugged into the AVR.
Plug the preamp or avr into the same outlet as the sub to see if the hum goes away.

It takes lots of abnormal people to make things easy for normal people.
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Old 10-03-2015, 02:58 PM
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212HT guys...which has worked better for you...corner placed/loaded or away from wall (and how much if it made a diff)? I'm not sure which I prefer or measures better in my room yet.
Mine measure best 1/4 distance from each respective side wall and full 8-10" of absoprtion around and behind the speakers. Still have a small null from the center at around 250hz. Here is the left front FR. LCR and surrounds are all crossed at 80hz 24dB LR slope. This graph actually has a pretty big house curve on the bass (good for heavy metal!). I digress
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Old 10-03-2015, 03:08 PM
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Where did you buy yours? Can't really find any places that sell new ones

Thanks
PM sent. There just happens to be one for sale in the classifieds, never used abused professionally, HT only. The difference between the D Sonic and the LG, is that the LG is an A/B output stage and the D Sonic is digital.

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Old 10-03-2015, 04:17 PM
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what is the list price of the D-Sonic for something close to 4x2000 @4ohm ? It is a quiet, no fan needed design? I thought I heard that somewhere??
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Old 10-03-2015, 04:43 PM
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The thing I hate about fanless (I have my equipment Ina separate room so noise doesn't matter to me) is I have things rack mounted and I can't stack things I it because of heat. So I am forced to leave a big space in rack for it
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Old 10-03-2015, 07:20 PM
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Let me ask you guys this one (and Gooddoc feel free to jump in). If I go with the lab gruppen to power my three fronts ( I assume I would just use three channels and one would go unused) does this lead to a cascading effect that my fronts now have so much headroom that the surrounds will not keep up with the fronts? Or since the surrounds are so much closer to me that the distance variable compensates for the less power they get.

The triple 8s for surrounds are getting 400-450 watts per from the outlaw. Does it make sense to give the fronts 2100 watts per channel but only 400 to surrounds?

Thanks for help and guidance.

ps. gooddoc will send you pm tomorrow
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Old 10-03-2015, 08:52 PM
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I am using my Sunfire which gives 400@ 8 ohm which my slant 8's are. My fronts are 12ft and my rears are 7 ft. I end up having to set the pre pro trim to +8dB on the rears. If you end up having to do this then you just need to make sure you are not clipping at the input stage. It's not really an issue for me because my pre pro doesn't clip at levels I have tested. The MV on my pre pro is at -15dBFR when it is actually at reference (this is when a -20dB signal is 85dB SPL @MLP ). My rears are capable of about +12dBFR at this distance.

The only time I really push the LG and go above +12dBFR is in two channel mode. Just make sure you know the limits and that you aren't clipping the signal before or after amplification. I bet your new pre pro can handle high trims without clipping but maybe someone with that unit can confirm.
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