Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1087 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 11-13-2015, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Understood, just trying to say that the exact science of 3D audio speaker placement is more than a little cloudy and when I hear I prefer 37° over the recommended 35° (not a real quote), I find that amusing.
I over thought it for sure and am happy for it. Because it taught me what was good vs bad....and taught me that I OVER THOUGHT IT!!! I agree on the 35/37 example. I just shoot for the end of the spec or the middle of the spec. Keep it simple and close to in-spec and it's golden. I think my angles ended up at 31 and 124. Big deal. It wouldn't sound any different at 36 and 119. It's trivial.

In a 2 row setup it's a matter of putting one pair at the furthest spec and the other pair at the closest spec, with regards to MLP. It's that simple. I would recommend shooting for 30 and 125 for back row MLP, or alternatively 55 and 150 for front row MLP. It just covers both rows more adequately. With one row, shoot for mid-spec 45 and 135. In any case, keep them spread approximately as wide as your mains. This just keeps the majority of the speaker's dispersion over the listening area. That's the primary goal. With good quality, wide-dispersion speakers, you will have nothing to worry about. Period. It's really that simple.

Where it gets more complicated is baffle angles and ceiling heights. Again, a wider dispersion speaker eliminates this concern to some level. 120 degrees (or 90 degrees with 30 degree baffle) is a good dispersion for the way I recommended mounting them, through my trial-and-error. That means you will want a 30 degree baffle for the closest speaker and a 15 degree baffle for the furthest speaker. IF you want to provide the best experience for both rows. Many say screw the other row and focus on just MLP...If that's the case, throw all this out the window and just run S8 LP at 45 and 135.

I spoke to Jeff just now and he's taking notes on having LP with both 15 and 30 degree baffles. He also indicated the S8 dispersion is 90x90 which is at the upper end of most I've seen or evaluated. Only JBL at 120 exceeds this that I've come across.
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Old 11-13-2015, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Fan boy in the making...I've heard a couple pairs of JTR mains, OS, Caps, etc in the last few weeks. I've always hated the crass, harsh sound of horns (thinking back to 1990s Klipsch....ugh). But the Noesis are a different class and sound excellent. I was blown away. I think the mid-range punch was best in class that I've heard. So definitely fan boy in the making. Also just ordered a pair of S8 and a pair of S8 LP for my surround replacements to ditch the crappy Def Techs.....So yeah, I'm on the way. I'll likely trial the LP on the ceiling before they come to their final resting place on the back wall.

I won't be touching my brand-new LCR or my couple month old ICs until I get my front carpentry ripped out, rebuilt and the screen mounted. Tough to bring myself to scrap these brand-new speakers so soon after purchasing. I know it's insane to replace my surrounds before going to better LCR, but oh well. This will solve a lot of mounting issues and headroom issues with the DT that I'm currently trying to rectify. Plus 6 pairs of S8s and new LCR would be insane and out of my budget for an instantaneous rip and replace. If I can get my tops and surrounds to all be JTR by the middle of next year, I would be happy with that.
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Old 11-13-2015, 09:30 AM
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I see your point(s) Stoked but there are many confounders beyond those you stated. There is DTS-X and Auro-Matic and room treatments and specific room acoustic issues. Then there's the ATMOS upfiring speakers with their bounce the sound off the ceiling approach and let's not forget Soundbars with ATMOS

At it's worst 3D audio is just another way to sell products to a "low information" population and then there's the "scientists" who adhere to the current dogma produced by corp marketing departments. I'm happy you were able to break this down to good and bad. I may choose different words but then, we all hear things our own way.

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Old 11-13-2015, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Fan boy in the making...I've heard a couple pairs of JTR mains, OS, Caps, etc in the last few weeks. I've always hated the crass, harsh sound of horns (thinking back to 1990s Klipsch....ugh). But the Noesis are a different class and sound excellent. I was blown away. I think the mid-range punch was best in class that I've heard. So definitely fan boy in the making. Also just ordered a pair of S8 and a pair of S8 LP for my surround replacements to ditch the crappy Def Techs.....So yeah, I'm on the way. I'll likely trial the LP on the ceiling before they come to their final resting place on the back wall.

I won't be touching my brand-new LCR or my couple month old ICs until I get my front carpentry ripped out, rebuilt and the screen mounted. Tough to bring myself to scrap these brand-new speakers so soon after purchasing. I know it's insane to replace my surrounds before going to better LCR, but oh well. This will solve a lot of mounting issues and headroom issues with the DT that I'm currently trying to rectify. Plus 6 pairs of S8s and new LCR would be insane and out of my budget for an instantaneous rip and replace. If I can get my tops and surrounds to all be JTR by the middle of next year, I would be happy with that.
Welcome aboard. Surprised you weren't one already being located in KC which is a JTR hotspot.

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Old 11-13-2015, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I see your point(s) Stoked but there are many confounders beyond those you stated. There is DTS-X and Auro-Matic and room treatments and specific room acoustic issues. Then there's the ATMOS upfiring speakers with their bounce the sound off the ceiling approach and let's not forget Soundbars with ATMOS

At it's worst 3D audio is just another way to sell products to a "low information" population and then there's the "scientists" who adhere to the current dogma produced by corp marketing departments. I'm happy you were able to break this down to good and bad. I may choose different words but then, we all hear things our own way.
Well there's surely no one size fits all approach. That much we all can agree on. But there are some easy, bullet-proof easy methods to insure a great Atmos implementation as I've detailed above. I'm an engineer so I probably fall into your "scientists" label wrt Atmos. But I'm also lazy! It does pay to think it out and put them where they best serve the listeners. Even if it's just to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside and provide you with piece of mind.

I can say I've heard crappy speakers in crappy Atmos installs. I've heard mediocre speakers in excellent Atmos installs. I've heard decent speakers in crappy installs. And I've heard speakers I would never even consider using. So installation does make a difference. However, I've never heard a high-end speaker in a crappy install. This is likely due to the fact that anyone who would invest in a great speaker would never half-ass the install. I also think that running a high-end speaker, like an S8 or the likes, would make it really tough to screw up an Atmos installation.

I hope you are not implying that Atmos HTs are novelty. I can tell you personally that even my current mediocre speakers, installed properly, bring a whole new level to the immersive cinema experience. Yes, we all hear things differently. My wife and her daughter could care less about Atmos and frankly barely notice it, if I had to guess. But if you're an enthusiasts, hence being on this forum in the first place, Atmos is a game changer when done correctly. I would never go back down to 7.1 and use DSU for everything I watch.
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Old 11-13-2015, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Well there's surely no one size fits all approach. That much we all can agree on. But there are some easy, bullet-proof easy methods to insure a great Atmos implementation as I've detailed above. I'm an engineer so I probably fall into your "scientists" label wrt Atmos. But I'm also lazy! It does pay to think it out and put them where they best serve the listeners. Even if it's just to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside and provide you with piece of mind.

I can say I've heard crappy speakers in crappy Atmos installs. I've heard mediocre speakers in excellent Atmos installs. I've heard decent speakers in crappy installs. And I've heard speakers I would never even consider using. So installation does make a difference. However, I've never heard a high-end speaker in a crappy install. This is likely due to the fact that anyone who would invest in a great speaker would never half-ass the install. I also think that running a high-end speaker, like an S8 or the likes, would make it really tough to screw up an Atmos installation.

I hope you are not implying that Atmos HTs are novelty. I can tell you personally that even my current mediocre speakers, installed properly, bring a whole new level to the immersive cinema experience. Yes, we all hear things differently. My wife and her daughter could care less about Atmos and frankly barely notice it, if I had to guess. But if you're an enthusiasts, hence being on this forum in the first place, Atmos is a game changer when done correctly. I would never go back down to 7.1 and use DSU for everything I watch.
I agree and 3D audio was a game changer for me as well. I think our tastes may be more similar than not and I certainly worked off of the basic Dolby installation concepts for my ceiling placements as shown by ahmedreda's post above. With the switch-out to hopefully Lance's very cool S8's as shown above (I was sold on first glance), I will have an opportunity to tweak the positions a bit.

BTW, I do believe that AMOS installs are a novelty as are dedicated Home Theaters even in this Forum. Re people noticing ATMOS, playing the ATMOS (or Auro 3D) demo disk makes it very obvious even to the most disinterested types.

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Old 11-13-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I agree and 3D audio was a game changer for me as well. I think our tastes may be more similar than not and I certainly worked off of the basic Dolby installation concepts for my ceiling placements as shown by ahmedreda's post above. With the switch-out to hopefully Lance's very cool S8's as shown above (I was sold on first glance), I will have an opportunity to tweak the positions a bit.

BTW, I do believe that AMOS installs are a novelty as are dedicated Home Theaters even in this Forum. Re people noticing ATMOS, playing the ATMOS (or Auro 3D) demo disk makes it very obvious even to the most disinterested types.
Me to Rob. And will probably follow your lead on the back plates you're working with Jeff on as well. Seems it would make the install very easy.

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Old 11-13-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
Welcome aboard. Surprised you weren't one already being located in KC which is a JTR hotspot.

The KC group just met Stoked a few weeks or so back, great guy and he lives less than 10 minutes from me. Some of us have been to his room and the atmos bubble thingy he has going on really is impressive, I loved the Atmos scene from Gravity!!

However... we had to have him over to our rooms in order to convert him to bigger subs (accomplished ) and higher dynamic range speakers (working on it ) so he's been to a couple of our houses now too including mine.

Derek, you are lucky you popped into the thread when it's actually on topic. This thread can veer every which way but eventually finds its way home.

BTW, one thing that REALLY works well in his room is having side surrounds out to the front of his main LP. I do think that it's room dependent because I tried it in my room and it didn't work, I think because my mains are so wide and it put the side surrounds too close to my mains.
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:52 PM
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I know its a little off topic but would it be ok if I post some pics of my room with the acoustic panels I just installed and get some feedback and/or suggestions? Ill wait to hear its ok and then I will post.

Thanks
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:52 PM
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I know its a little off topic but would it be ok if I post some pics of my room with the acoustic panels I just installed and get some feedback and/or suggestions? Ill wait to hear its ok and then I will post.

Thanks
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Old 11-13-2015, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
The KC group just met Stoked a few weeks or so back, great guy and he lives less than 10 minutes from me. Some of us have been to his room and the atmos bubble thingy he has going on really is impressive, I loved the Atmos scene from Gravity!!

However... we had to have him over to our rooms in order to convert him to bigger subs (accomplished ) and higher dynamic range speakers (working on it ) so he's been to a couple of our houses now too including mine.

Derek, you are lucky you popped into the thread when it's actually on topic. This thread can veer every which way but eventually finds its way home.

BTW, one thing that REALLY works well in his room is having side surrounds out to the front of his main LP. I do think that it's room dependent because I tried it in my room and it didn't work, I think because my mains are so wide and it put the side surrounds too close to my mains.

Just in case you haven't realized Derek....resistance is futile.

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Old 11-13-2015, 01:12 PM
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I know its a little off topic but would it be ok if I post some pics of my room with the acoustic panels I just installed and get some feedback and/or suggestions? Ill wait to hear its ok and then I will post.

Thanks
Im sure that is most certainly welcomed. Bring it on!
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:12 PM
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I know its a little off topic but would it be ok if I post some pics of my room with the acoustic panels I just installed and get some feedback and/or suggestions? Ill wait to hear its ok and then I will post.

Thanks
Asking permission around here is something that is never done and there really is no one to ask but since I have the highest post count (by a mile) I say ... say please and go ahead.

That said, double posting is verboten ...

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Old 11-13-2015, 01:13 PM
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Asking permission around here is something that is never done and there really is no one to ask but since I have the highest post count (by a mile) I say ... say please and go ahead.
weak post count is weak
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:15 PM
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weak post count is weak
Biggest speakers ???

I'm the tallest ????

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Old 11-13-2015, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
thought you guys might like to see the slant 8's Jeff made me. They are lower profile. I don't remember the exact dimensions but I think the internal volume is equal.

The S8's are really nice. The other day I switched the front L&R to the rears just to let the S8's rip on some music (with subs on) and they are impressive!
They look perfect for Atmos duty.
I am in the process of selling some stereo gear and improve on HT.
These will fit excellent.

BTW, anyone looking for a set of 3 Noesis 212 HT LP' s and wants to make the trip to Amsterdam mine will be up for sale as soon as the Linn DS is sold.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:25 PM
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Biggest speakers ???

I'm the tallest ????
You have the coolest area rug on the entire forum.
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Old 11-13-2015, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Asking permission around here is something that is never done and there really is no one to ask but since I have the highest post count (by a mile) I say ... say please and go ahead.

That said, double posting is verboten ...
I remember when someone posted those numbers and Rob was the king of the hill and by a wide margin. I wonder if Rob's lead is still huge?

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Old 11-13-2015, 01:32 PM
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Biggest speakers ???

I'm the tallest ????
You aren't alone with the biggest speakers my friend but you are certainly taller than anyone else in pictures I've seen.

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Old 11-13-2015, 02:04 PM
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sorry about lousy photos..used my iPhone
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:48 PM
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sorry about lousy photos..used my iPhone
Well it's no bat cave ... but you have created a very nice looking and inviting multi use (music/movies) space. It has to sound good even without treatments and with them, you should be able to go a bit louder without the sound getting muddied by reflections.

Looks like you have the front and back walls pretty well covered and I assume the ceiling panels are at the first reflection point of the LCR's? Do you have a means of measuring the rooms FR?

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Old 11-13-2015, 02:52 PM
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You have the coolest area rug on the entire forum.
That rug really pulls the room together man ...

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I remember when someone posted those numbers and Rob was the king of the hill and by a wide margin. I wonder if Rob's lead is still huge?
2910 and widening the gap. What an F-ing looser I am.
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:08 PM
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Some of us have been to his room and the atmos bubble thingy he has going on really is impressive, I loved the Atmos scene from Gravity!!

However... we had to have him over to our rooms in order to convert him to bigger subs (accomplished ) and higher dynamic range speakers (working on it ) so he's been to a couple of our houses now too including mine.



BTW, one thing that REALLY works well in his room is having side surrounds out to the front of his main LP.
Thanks for the compliment Sheldon. Means a lot coming from you, with that insane setup of yours!

I had to start counting today and have figured out that in this 6 month process I've been through 23 speakers including 3 subs, yet only spent $5k (not including returned items or JTR purchases). I say that like it's not a lot of money, but do the math and it's only about $200 per speaker on average. I'm guessing I probably stand to lose about $1500-2000 once I resell all of the smaller speakers and slowly retrofit everything with tailored, high-end solutions. My mistake was trying to shoe horn everything into an existing floor plan and thinking I just wanted a small inexpensive theater. I've gone through 2 sets of LCR already, 4 subs, and 5 sets of Atmos ICs since starting the HT in April of this year. It does sound great IMO. But I know I can improve it even more slowly but surely.

On the plus side, all of that effort and $ allowed me to learn exactly what did and did not work for my room and what I wanted/expected out of it. I got one hell of a trial and error baptism for Atmos and side surround locations! So that did not come easy! It was also educational to play around with different speakers, numerous mounting locations, mounting options, speaker types, etc without investing a significant amount of money into a high-end item that ended up not working out for me.

I have owned ML CLS2z and Kinergetics with Levinson and Counterpoint in the past...I did my thesis work on DSP and electrostatic transducers and active noise cancellation....But the dedicated HT arena is new and foreign to me. So the locals have been awesome in patiently helping me out. Unfortunately, I think they're also leading me to never be satisfied!
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:09 PM
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Just in case you haven't realized Derek....resistance is futile.
Resistance is futile....my wallet is not!
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:22 PM
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Atmos speakers came earlier in the week and the screen arrived today. Just waiting for the truckload of JTR speakers to arrive.
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:35 PM
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Atmos speakers came earlier in the week and the screen arrived today. Just waiting for the truckload of JTR speakers to arrive.
Early Xmas in PA! NICE!

Could have sworn you took a pic of my room over the last couple weeks, if it wasn't for the subs you have at the bottom of the box pile. Same prepro and amps as well as some JTR and more on the way. Deja vu. My boxes are all still sitting down there in a similar position too! HA HA

Looks like 328C for ICs----one of my top 2 choices. The 120 degrees is hard to beat and the price. But I am seriously going to consider JTR ceiling mount options before replacing my el cheapo Niles. Especially since they are working for me. Are the other JBL your surround and surround backs I take it? My problem with the JBL solution is that I either need to build boxes (which I really don't care to do) or make plywood mounting plates and live with sound transfer to other rooms. Even though the dispersion is better than JTR, I really want everything to match eventually. And I want to eliminate as much sound transfer as possible without ripping the drywall and studs out. Which means no ICs in the joists.
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Early Xmas in PA! NICE!

Could have sworn you took a pic of my room over the last couple weeks, if it wasn't for the subs you have at the bottom of the box pile. Same prepro and amps as well as some JTR and more on the way. Deja vu. My boxes are all still sitting down there in a similar position too! HA HA

Looks like 328C for ICs----one of my top 2 choices. The 120 degrees is hard to beat and the price. But I am seriously going to consider JTR ceiling mount options before replacing my el cheapo Niles. Especially since they are working for me. Are the other JBL your surround and surround backs I take it? My problem with the JBL solution is that I either need to build boxes (which I really don't care to do) or make plywood mounting plates and live with sound transfer to other rooms. Even though the dispersion is better than JTR, I really want everything to match eventually. And I want to eliminate as much sound transfer as possible without ripping the drywall and studs out. Which means no ICs in the joists.
JTR 215RT for LCR
2 JTR S8-lp for rear surround
2 JTR S8-lp for surround

Has the making of a 7.4.x system. Not sure if I'll "need" subs with the 215's but I have 8 18" CHT subs on standby. I love the idea of full range LCR.

Only went with the JBL for Atmos because you can buy them with the cans. I'm a no DIY guy so the easier the better!!
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:00 PM
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Ok well, I really wish I hadn't read DD's mini review of the Slanted 8's because that got me thinking and that is often expensive. In this case particular case, I decided to sell my 4 JBL 8340A's and replace them with S8's (either Single 8LP's or Slanted 8's) on the ceiling for ATMOS duty. I'm working with Jeff on a mounting system that will be a baltic birch back plate (pre-drilled and finished like the speaker) that will use the existing keyhole mounts to mount the speaker to the back plate. A hole in the center of the back plate will allow wiring up the speaker. Then it's just a matter of attaching the back plate to the ceiling via screws into joists and/or toggle bolts if you have sheet rock. Should be a nice integrated look for on ceiling speakers but could work for wall mounting too.

Jeff has the S8's in stock now so there will be minimal waiting time which I like . I also did some buying and selling and will have an inuke NU6000DSP driving the 215RT mains and a single bridged inuke NU3000DSP for the center channel 215RT. That will allow me to have an HP filter on the full range LCR's and give me 8 PEQ's to play with and the total amp spend was minimal considering those features and 3000wpc. I've had some nice amps but honestly can't tell the difference between a $6K LG, a $4K W4S or the under $700 inukes.

The net/net is I will be back to having an all JTR speaker setup (7.x.4) and that is worth the cost and time. IMHO
Have you had single 8's before? Sounds like a nice set up with the mounts. I wish now I would have thought a bit more about it and had Jeff do some pre mounting with my slanted eights. I was not happy about drilling into my cabs, but I am never selling mine. If I move, they are coming with me to the new theater, until then, they are not coming off the wall!
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:13 PM
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sorry about lousy photos..used my iPhone
Looks awesome.
My only suggestion is to consider going with darker paint.
It will make the picture a LOT better.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:16 PM
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Atmos speakers came earlier in the week and the screen arrived today. Just waiting for the truckload of JTR speakers to arrive.
You might think about having the wife go shopping or whatever when the truck is scheduled to arrive. Her seeing the 215RT's on the pallet could cause some unnecessary anxiety.

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