Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1090 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #32671 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 09:51 AM
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I'll throw my 2 cents in on the 212's efficiency and not needing a powerful amp to drive them. My biggest regret is that I paid way too much for my amps (Emotiva XPR's). If I could do it all again, I'd save some coin and go with some Crown's as well.
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JTR 212HT (LCR) | JTR Slanted 8's (Surround Back and Sides) | Dual JTR Captivator S2 Subwoofers
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post #32672 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 10:06 AM
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Hey guys,

Would you go for 212HT or 228HTR if you wanted the best for both movies and music?
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post #32673 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael79 View Post
Hey guys,

Would you go for 212HT or 228HTR if you wanted the best for both movies and music?

If you are 100% movies than the Noesis 212HT but if you're 50/50% than the Noesis 228HTR is probably a better choice with the coaxial compression driver.
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post #32674 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Are you boosting the bass with the 215's? When I had 2000 watts going to each 215 AND used dsp to boost the bass I thought it was about the same as the ported Caps that I used to own.
No, I'm not doing any bass boosting via dsp. I'm just running them normal and have always been. Your point is valid and an alternative for someone to consider if they want to do that. I did not. I opted for the Cap's instead of trying DSP.
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post #32675 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
I'll throw my 2 cents in on the 212's efficiency and not needing a powerful amp to drive them. My biggest regret is that I paid way too much for my amps (Emotiva XPR's). If I could do it all again, I'd save some coin and go with some Crown's as well.
I picked my last 2 Crown's for 199 each....that's a deal. I'm now running 7 Crown 1500's in my system and all 7 didn't cost that much money...compared to non pro amps.
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post #32676 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
I picked my last 2 Crown's for 199 each....that's a deal. I'm now running 7 Crown 1500's in my system and all 7 didn't cost that much money...compared to non pro amps.


Bingo: that's the ideal setup I feel most JTR guys have

JTR 212HT (LCR) | JTR Slanted 8's (Surround Back and Sides) | Dual JTR Captivator S2 Subwoofers
Emotiva XPR-5 | Emotiva XPR-2 | Marantz AV8802A | Kaleidescape Strato + Vault
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post #32677 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
Bingo: that's the ideal setup I feel most JTR guys have
Well....it's ideal for me. I know others run Pro amps and some run consumer. The dsonic amps are highly regarded here but the Crown's were such a deal and supply my 215's with more power than I'll ever use, I'm happy with them. They are super quiet and never run hot. In fact I don't think I've ever heard the fan's kick in. Now my equipment is in a different room but after a long movie or a day of watching football, my room is not hot nor are the fans on. Now when I was running a consumer amp (Parasound hca-2003) for the LCR, it was like a sauna in the equipment room after any movie.


So (again) it's ideal for me in my set-up and I'm quite satisfied with the Crown's.

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post #32678 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 04:02 PM
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My fans do kick on....I have to turn all the lights on, stand in the closet (that sounds odd), and put my ear up against the grille or look at the fan to see it spinning. It's literally not audible at all so you think they never run. I've found the AV closet will be warm if I go in there after a movie. I'm not sure that's due to the 8 amps or not.

All of my current speakers are in the 87-91db range. Will be curious if the s8 at 95 truly causes more hiss/buzz. I thought the xls1500s were pretty buzzy already and had to slowly trim the gain down to 3 o'clock. At 12 o clock it's not noticeable at all but I lose a lot of power and audyssey maxes chs out at +12db. If I were to jump to 212s at 101db sensitivity, I'd really wonder about xls gain hiss
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post #32679 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
My fans do kick on....I have to turn all the lights on, stand in the closet (that sounds odd), and put my ear up against the grille or look at the fan to see it spinning. It's literally not audible at all so you think they never run. I've found the AV closet will be warm if I go in there after a movie. I'm not sure that's due to the 8 amps or not.

All of my current speakers are in the 87-91db range. Will be curious if the s8 at 95 truly causes more hiss/buzz. I thought the xls1500s were pretty buzzy already and had to slowly trim the gain down to 3 o'clock. At 12 o clock it's not noticeable at all but I lose a lot of power and audyssey maxes chs out at +12db. If I were to jump to 212s at 101db sensitivity, I'd really wonder about xls gain hiss
One thing that you will find is that the S8 will be more than 4 db's more sensitive than your speakers that are rated at 91 and more than 7 db's more sensitive than the 87 rated speakers.

I can't tell you how many speakers I have had in here when I had the 212's as mains and every single time the other speaker was much less sensitive than the rated specs compared to the 101 of the 212's.
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post #32680 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
My fans do kick on....I have to turn all the lights on, stand in the closet (that sounds odd), and put my ear up against the grille or look at the fan to see it spinning. It's literally not audible at all so you think they never run. I've found the AV closet will be warm if I go in there after a movie. I'm not sure that's due to the 8 amps or not.

All of my current speakers are in the 87-91db range. Will be curious if the s8 at 95 truly causes more hiss/buzz. I thought the xls1500s were pretty buzzy already and had to slowly trim the gain down to 3 o'clock. At 12 o clock it's not noticeable at all but I lose a lot of power and audyssey maxes chs out at +12db. If I were to jump to 212s at 101db sensitivity, I'd really wonder about xls gain hiss

I have always heard that it's bad to have your speaker trims in the positive, I guess your chances of clipping the output signal from the AVR is much higher if you do that. I don't know if it holds true for every case, but just to be safe I have always kept my speaker/sub trims in the negative numbers.

I think you should be fine as far as hiss goes, my main speakers are also 95 db's sensitive and the inuke is known for being noisier than the Crowns you are using and I don't have an issue.
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post #32681 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I have always heard that it's bad to have your speaker trims in the positive, I guess your chances of clipping the output signal from the AVR is much higher if you do that. I don't know if it holds true for every case, but just to be safe I have always kept my speaker/sub trims in the negative numbers.

I think you should be fine as far as hiss goes, my main speakers are also 95 db's sensitive and the inuke is known for being noisier than the Crowns you are using and I don't have an issue.
+1

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post #32682 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 04:33 PM
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Rob,

Any updates on your S8 Atmos journey and the corresponding back plates? I know you mentioned you were talking with Jeff.

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post #32683 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I have always heard that it's bad to have your speaker trims in the positive, I guess your chances of clipping the output signal from the AVR is much higher if you do that. I don't know if it holds true for every case, but just to be safe I have always kept my speaker/sub trims in the negative numbers.

I think you should be fine as far as hiss goes, my main speakers are also 95 db's sensitive and the inuke is known for being noisier than the Crowns you are using and I don't have an issue.
I keep my speaker settings as close to a zero average as possible. Though I really stick with the audyssey settings and just minor tweaks manually. I don't know my niles ceiling sensitivities. They're the estimated 87, maybe they're closer to 90. Regardless they run from 0 to +5 depending on location. My surrounds run -5 to +1 (91 db) while my mains are all about 0 (90db) Can't really keep everything in the negative without pushing some closer to -12 and manually dropping all of them down the same number of steps. I suppose I could increase amp gain on the positive chs....but then more hiss when room is quiet. Catch 22

Anyway, my surrounds are getting swapped soon so that all will change.
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post #32684 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 05:19 PM
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Was on a quest for great speaker stands for S8s. I'm tired of seeing all these little Sanus light-weight, aluminum, top heavy stands. They normally only weight about 10-20lbs so the speaker can typically weigh more. I'm not a fan of wood as they can't be filled with sand and are normally not as heavy or durable IMO. Plus I think metal stands normally have better aesthetics.

Came across Pangea on several websites. Basically 5 stars across the board. Solid steel and they weigh about 30 lbs each...more than the 25lb S8 so they are beefy. I'm not a fan of using velcro adhesive on the bottom of an expensive speaker. I may have to but I may try the tacky putty stuff first. Thoughts on methods to "adhere" the S8 to the stand?
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post #32685 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 06:10 PM
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Rob,

Any updates on your S8 Atmos journey and the corresponding back plates? I know you mentioned you were talking with Jeff.
Not yet, he is looking into Lance's Slanted 8LP design. I'm wanting those for ATMOS duty and the mounting plates are on the back burner ...

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post #32686 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 07:00 PM
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Not yet, he is looking into Lance's Slanted 8LP design. I'm wanting those for ATMOS duty and the mounting plates are on the back burner ...
I'm thinking I want those for Atmos duty as well and I thought the back plates were part of the deal for ease of mounting.


Been playing around with Atmos since I got the new processor set-up. For the first time tonight I played with DSU...watched a little bit of Prometheus. In a word...WOW. Have you played that back in DSU yet? If not you need to. I've not run across a native Atmos track (yet) that sounds this immersive. Not sure how DSU works technically but for Prometheus it's incredible.

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post #32687 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
I'm thinking I want those for Atmos duty as well and I thought the back plates were part of the deal for ease of mounting.


Been playing around with Atmos since I got the new processor set-up. For the first time tonight I played with DSU...watched a little bit of Prometheus. In a word...WOW. Have you played that back in DSU yet? If not you need to. I've not run across a native Atmos track (yet) that sounds this immersive. Not sure how DSU works technically but for Prometheus it's incredible.
Over the last several months I've found that dsu typically makes more top use than native Atmos disc. That tends to be the consensus with all dsu users. I suppose because it's simulated, the prepro is more prolific in its up mixing. Sound mixers tend to be a little more stingy and save it all for climatic scenes.

As far as backplates go. I guess I'm confused as to why this is such a big deal. 4 toggles or mollies can easily hold 25 lbs. even in dry wall. screw them in the ceiling and slide the keyholes on. Cut a piece of 1x2 shorter than the enclosure and drill 2 holes in it. Paint it black or the ceiling color and screw it into the drywall with or without mollies. This will keep the speaker from moving and the keyholes from sliding off the screws (no 25lb speaker on someone's head!). It can be easily removed and doesn't require you to put any screws into the enclosure. So for about $2 and 30 minutes of time you can mount four speakers professionally looking with just a drill driver and a paintbrush.

Personally. I'm going to cut a piece of plywood to speaker length and 18" long and paint it ceiling color. Drill a forstner bit through the middle for wiring and put the four keyhole screws in it. Make the same 1x2 to "lock" the speaker on the keyholes. This will allow me to screw it directly to the 16" oc joists. Only 4-2.5" wood screws into your ceiling per speaker. Again about 30 minutes of time and the cost of the plywood. And still not having to drill into the speaker and easily removable. All for the cost of half a sheet of mdf or ply.

So why avoid either of these simple, nearly free alternatives?
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post #32688 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 07:47 PM
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Over the last several months I've found that dsu typically makes more top use than native Atmos disc. That tends to be the consensus with all dsu users. I suppose because it's simulated, the prepro is more prolific in its up mixing. Sound mixers tend to be a little more stingy and save it all for climatic scenes.

As far as backplates go. I guess I'm confused as to why this is such a big deal. 4 toggles or mollies can easily hold 25 lbs. even in dry wall. screw them in the ceiling and slide the keyholes on. Cut a piece of 1x2 shorter than the enclosure and drill 2 holes in it. Paint it black or the ceiling color and screw it into the drywall with or without mollies. This will keep the speaker from moving and the keyholes from sliding off the screws (no 25lb speaker on someone's head!). It can be easily removed and doesn't require you to put any screws into the enclosure. So for about $2 and 30 minutes of time you can mount four speakers professionally looking with just a drill driver and a paintbrush.

Personally. I'm going to cut a piece of plywood to speaker length and 18" long and paint it ceiling color. Drill a forstner bit through the middle for wiring and put the four keyhole screws in it. Make the same 1x2 to "lock" the speaker on the keyholes. This will allow me to screw it directly to the 16" oc joists. Only 4-2.5" wood screws into your ceiling per speaker. Again about 30 minutes of time and the cost of the plywood. And still not having to drill into the speaker and easily removable. All for the cost of half a sheet of mdf or ply.

So why avoid either of these simple, nearly free alternatives?
I like the idea of the 1x2 to lock the keyholes to keep them from moving....hadn't thought of that but I like it.

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post #32689 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I've heard a lot of "good" speakers that struggle with dialog clarity.
That's a major area where JTR shines at low to moderate volumes, which is a huge deal for movies.
At high volumes, you experience some stuff you've never heard before with dynamics and no trace of harshness that you normally associate with high volumes.
It seems like real life, which has dynamic peaks that you typically don't hear from speakers.
The first time I ever heard JTR's my exact thinking was it was the opposite of harsh. That it was pleasant. I watched Oblivion at -5 in a 7 channel JTR setup and not once did I cringe. And I went into the movie thinking I would at -5 in a converted bedroom theater 8ft from mains

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Thanks for the links.
You bet I have quite a few if you like I can PM more. I posted those in response to some BASIC room treatment questions. One could easily watch that video and read the first few pages of Nyal's thread and pass a 101 course on small room acoustics and have a general idea how to approach treating a room. Seems like the first thing the pros address is the wrong thinking about absorption. Nyal is emphatic about it at sidewall first reflection points, that sidewall points should be "controlled" and not eliminated. I have seen rooms with BIG packages from GIK acoustics with 100% absorption panels! AG in that vid says no more than 20% of wall surfaces should be covered with absorption.

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Hey guys,

Would you go for 212HT or 228HTR if you wanted the best for both movies and music?
As Jeff said HTR. If you're already spending money go the extra bit for the better CD for sure.

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post #32690 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 08:28 PM
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I like the idea of the 1x2 to lock the keyholes to keep them from moving....hadn't thought of that but I like it.
I spoke with Jeff last Friday and told him this was exactly how I meant to mount S8s for Atmos in the future. I'm not sure I explained it well to him so I probably left him confused with my poor wording. Just make sure you put the 1x2 on the correct side! Ha ha. I'd likely flip the keyholes around on one pair so that the 1x2 can always be placed on the backside of the speaker--not visible at mlp. Maybe that's picky since its painted a matching color of cab or ceiling. Oh well. I guess the real question is how much will the speakers vibrate and would they lossen the screws through the 1x2 and drywall? If so it would necessitate small mollies or the plywood option. Plywood would obviously be the most stable but also the most intrusive.
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post #32691 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
I'm thinking I want those for Atmos duty as well and I thought the back plates were part of the deal for ease of mounting.


Been playing around with Atmos since I got the new processor set-up. For the first time tonight I played with DSU...watched a little bit of Prometheus. In a word...WOW. Have you played that back in DSU yet? If not you need to. I've not run across a native Atmos track (yet) that sounds this immersive. Not sure how DSU works technically but for Prometheus it's incredible.
Back plates are something Jeff is considering but definitely not part of the deal. There are lots of ways to do ceiling mounting and I've got a couple of ideas I'm kicking around. Should hear about the Slanted 8LP later this week.

I haven't watched Prometheus since the ceiling speakers were installed. Thanks for the heads up, I'll give it a spin.

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post #32692 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 10:58 PM
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Best thing to do is run JTR with 1/2 watt per channel. Your granny will be impressed, so stop there. That is why you bought JTR to begin with. In no circumstances run 212's with 2000 watts, that would be crazy. without attention to room acoustics and DSP I really do recommend the previous statement. For those of you that want to experience SPL at higher lever but not "louder" levels I highly suggest you pay attention to room acoustics, DSP and verification (eg REW). Experiencing how JTR 212HTR's can sound with those factors plus 2000 watts is what drove me to get the third OS to balance the FR!

The other position of "low power is enough' is fine for some, but for some of us this JTR design was built on "holy sh$t" this is awesome, and more is better!

Funny thing is every party I have at the house has my everyday friends and neighbors turning the volume to +15dBFR on a regular basis. hmmmm that is weird?
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post #32693 of 35294 Old 11-17-2015, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Back plates are something Jeff is considering but definitely not part of the deal. There are lots of ways to do ceiling mounting and I've got a couple of ideas I'm kicking around. Should hear about the Slanted 8LP later this week.

I haven't watched Prometheus since the ceiling speakers were installed. Thanks for the heads up, I'll give it a spin.
I attached my S8's straight into the ceiling but I did not have any issue with drilling into the S8's. My ceiling is 3/4"drywall plus GG and 3/4" OSB on whisper clips. You could do pull ups from those things and they ain't coming down. Even you Rob, yes pull ups from them! Hehe
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post #32694 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 07:06 AM
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I attached my S8's straight into the ceiling but I did not have any issue with drilling into the S8's. My ceiling is 3/4"drywall plus GG and 3/4" OSB on whisper clips. You could do pull ups from those things and they ain't coming down. Even you Rob, yes pull ups from them! Hehe
You have your surrounds on the ceiling? I thought you had 7' ish ceilings. I'd be eye to eye with the S8's and have to wear a helmet as head butting those securely mounted S8's would be inevitable.

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post #32695 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 07:35 AM
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Hey guys,

Would you go for 212HT or 228HTR if you wanted the best for both movies and music?
I know you said you could not read my PM, but if you want to hear both the 212HT's and the 215RT's, let me know. It will have to be next week or next weekend as I am heading to Beastville for the balling out GTG this weekend! It will get me motivated to get everything tuned up and get my 212HT's back up and running out in the living room. I have the original 212HT's as the new HT's are a 2 way I believe.
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post #32696 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 09:26 AM
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Posting a comment/question from another thread for JTR S8 for Atmos duty...

I concur with your "height" vs "top" assessment. I ran $250/speaker for FH and RH in April during the construction of the HT for experimentation. My opinion of Atmos was, well it's interesting but hardly noticeable (could have been speaker dispersion issues). I switched over to $100/speaker ICs in August and was BLOWN away by the difference in Atmos sound stage.

So this brings up my question. My current ICs have aimable woofers and tweeters at about 15-30 degrees. The new speakers would be slanted boxes on the ceiling and have similar angles with the slanted baffles (15, 20, 30 degrees or so TBD). This would also help with clearance behind the drywall and diminish some sound transfer as one IC pair currently does not have back boxes. Mounting enclosures to the ceiling will lower them into the listening room by at least 7" as well. I don't want to mess with a great thing that's working for me, but I long for higher SPL, higher efficiency, wider FR speakers that are more linear and dynamic up there (and matched to the rest of my system).

So would you classify these as height speaker or a top speaker? The angle to MLP specs of a "height" and a "top" overlap for the most part. If it's "on" the ceiling, 7" down below the ceiling, and angled baffle at as high as 30 degrees....I'm wondering if the sound coming from "above" will lead back to where I started with less than impressive results: pseudo height speakers? It seems like a grey area.
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post #32697 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 11:20 AM
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Over the last several months I've found that dsu typically makes more top use than native Atmos disc. That tends to be the consensus with all dsu users. I suppose because it's simulated, the prepro is more prolific in its up mixing. Sound mixers tend to be a little more stingy and save it all for climatic scenes.

As far as backplates go. I guess I'm confused as to why this is such a big deal. 4 toggles or mollies can easily hold 25 lbs. even in dry wall. screw them in the ceiling and slide the keyholes on. Cut a piece of 1x2 shorter than the enclosure and drill 2 holes in it. Paint it black or the ceiling color and screw it into the drywall with or without mollies. This will keep the speaker from moving and the keyholes from sliding off the screws (no 25lb speaker on someone's head!). It can be easily removed and doesn't require you to put any screws into the enclosure. So for about $2 and 30 minutes of time you can mount four speakers professionally looking with just a drill driver and a paintbrush.

Personally. I'm going to cut a piece of plywood to speaker length and 18" long and paint it ceiling color. Drill a forstner bit through the middle for wiring and put the four keyhole screws in it. Make the same 1x2 to "lock" the speaker on the keyholes. This will allow me to screw it directly to the 16" oc joists. Only 4-2.5" wood screws into your ceiling per speaker. Again about 30 minutes of time and the cost of the plywood. And still not having to drill into the speaker and easily removable. All for the cost of half a sheet of mdf or ply.

So why avoid either of these simple, nearly free alternatives?

My ceiling plate solution, if you are cool with drilling into the back of the speaker would be french cleats. put two on either side of the back of the box, both facing inward about an inch in from each side (or top and bottom, your choice). Then measure how far you would need to mount the two additional cleats on the ceiling in the same orientation so you could literally "Slide" The box right into the channel you created in the ceiling with the other two cleats. It would have the boxes almost dead on the ceiling for those that have height restraints.
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post #32698 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 03:04 PM
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I live on a larger suburban lot. Half an acre. My neighbor across the 2 lane road just texted me as I'm watching the new Terminator movie....while Google is digging and jack hammering for the new fiber network on our property corner.

"Is that bass coming from your house?"

So he may or may not be a fan of the cap 1400.
I got a laugh out of it regardless!!!

Last edited by Stoked21; 11-18-2015 at 03:35 PM.
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post #32699 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 04:03 PM
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I live on a larger suburban lot. Half an acre. My neighbor across the 2 lane road just texted me as I'm watching the new Terminator movie....while Google is digging and jack hammering for the new fiber network on our property corner.

"Is that bass coming from your house?"

So he may or may not be a fan of the cap 1400.
I got a laugh out of it regardless!!!
Well, I think you need another one...you know so you can share the JTR love with your more distant neighbors.

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post #32700 of 35294 Old 11-18-2015, 04:07 PM
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Well, I think you need another one...you know so you can share the JTR love with your more distant neighbors.
I mean from a basement while construction is taking place....With the gain only turned to about 9 o'clock, no boost, -5db volume.....What's he going to say when I do have 2 or 3 of them? In all fairness he heard it while he was outside, not necessarily while he was inside as far as I know.

We strongly dislike that arrogant neighbor anyway. I've added bass to the list of other things he complains about, such as the time of day my sprinkler system runs.
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