Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1093 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #32761 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post
Not sure if you're trying to tailor the statement to the list or not. Depending on the range you choose it will seriously change the top 5. 10-63 would probably not include the othorn. 30-125 is othorn all the way. So, again it goes back to what one is looking for in their particular solution. Also, the danley dts-10 would probably be in several of these lists. Also, you need to consider some of the ones Josh hasn't been able to test. For example, a large ported dual lms ultra like notnyt's would definitely be in there if Josh could test it.

That's what I meant, it depends on the hz range you are talking about.

Really low stuff: sealed 24
Not quite as low: G Horn
A bit higher: OS LFU
Higher: Othorn
Highest Hz: OS Pro

I forgot about the dts - 10, and unsure of where it would go... G Horn competitor? And of course massive ported builds have to be considered. Maybe I'm just putting a list together of the subs I'm familiar with more than anything... and just thinking out loud...
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post #32762 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:12 PM
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Listening to some stereo (2.2)Ten Years After at reference with my original 212ht and dual seatons nearfield and it is absolutely stunning! I am lovin my sound right now, databass test results for the 212s is just icing on the cake!
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post #32763 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
That's what I meant, it depends on the hz range you are talking about.

Really low stuff: sealed 24
Not quite as low: G Horn
A bit higher: OS LFU
Higher: Othorn
Highest Hz: OS Pro

I forgot about the dts - 10, and unsure of where it would go... G Horn competitor? And of course massive ported builds have to be considered. Maybe I'm just putting a list together of the subs I'm familiar with more than anything... and just thinking out loud...
Ah, I gotcha. I misread your post. I thought you were trying to say the best 5 subs for "full range" sub bandwidth are the 5 you listed. My mistake.
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post #32764 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Ported RE XXX is the most beasty at the lowest of frequencies - but it has something like a 35 cubic foot ported box in the test.

The new Orbit Shifter numbers look good to me! Bit of a balance between a Gjallarhorn and Othorn, which is where you'd expect it to come out. The flat response +/- 1.7dB (ish) is very nice too which is all most people would encounter in their rooms.



I thought it interesting to see the 212HTR vs. many of the sealed sub offerings. For instance pull up the 212HTR vs a single LMS-5400 - arguably the best 18" driver ever available - and from 55Hz and up the 212HTR put a hurt on the LMS-5400. It has more output than the LMS 5100PRO even --- above 60Hz! That's another $1K absolutely top shelf woofer in a sealed box. If somebody says - not enough mid-bass? Then EQ to please! You have zounds of headroom to do so - proof of that now!

I think this shows how much people need to EQ in their own bass boost if not using a traditional sub trim to increase the bass (if they are a bass head like me). Honestly I would never be happy with the 215's for full range if I didn't have a way to boost the bass and that's because I would never be happy to have subs that are level matched with speakers. Not enough bass.

That's what I love about the 215's for music. When I tweak/boost the bass I'm doing it all at once - low stuff, mid bass, all of it at once. With smaller speakers crossed to subs you have to do it separately so it's harder to fine tune the sound of the bass you want while on the fly listening to a song and that assumes you have dsp for the speaker.

Dirac changes that though, so I'd be interested in a comparison of 2 systems. One that had Dirac setup with the 215's compared to a system that had Dirac with the 212's and Caps.
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post #32765 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post
Ah, I gotcha. I misread your post. I thought you were trying to say the best 5 subs for "full range" sub bandwidth are the 5 you listed. My mistake.
No worries, I was struggling with how to word that and I do believe I failed with my first attempt!
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post #32766 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Love delivery days!!!
Well my delivery today wasn't quite as impressive as yours! But still awesome! 5 speakers/subs out of 17 down and 13 to go!! (in replacing all of them in my 9.2.6 setup).....Now I have to bastardize my walls to get the rear surrounds on and ditch the DT junk!

I'm sure any minute now Grant is going to tell me to yank the Monitor Audio towers out of the front and put these in their place for the biggest dynamic improvement!!

HA HA All jokes aside, he's likely right!!!

Anyway, screen front construction starts tomorrow morning, so I'm going to try to enjoy them tonight before the HT gets decommissioned for a bit.
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post #32767 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:36 PM
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he's right.

Put those single eight's up as your front 3. Rerun your EQ program setup, and watch a movie tonight.

Turn it to 11 and be flabbergasted by just how loud and clean those S8 can go.



Still to this day - one of the loudest (if not the loudest thing) I've ever heard from a main speaker (maybe out of anything?!?!) was when Jeff Permanian was at the HuskerOmaha meet with his pair of S8 and we were in his living room and he turned them up to a ridiculous level. It was downright painful --- and still crystal clear! No sane person turns his speakers that loud in a house - ever... He just wanted to show us what they could handle.

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post #32768 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Keep in mind when a system is using Josh's uber amp, vs. the built in speaker power amps on the retail equipment. (nobody on these forums (that I'm aware of) is using a powersoft amp like that -- so the numbers depicted on the passive stuff are sometimes a bit inflated because of all that clean power on tap.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
That's what I meant, it depends on the hz range you are talking about.

Really low stuff: sealed 24
Not quite as low: G Horn
A bit higher: OS LFU
Higher: Othorn
Highest Hz: OS Pro
When you consider an actual amp used in the 24 sealed like the one used by DeepSeaSound, then other alignments prevail in the 16 Hz and up. So I guess I agree that the sealed 24 does best for the really low stuff - like 10 Hz and down. I've posted similar to this before.

Since both the Cap 1400 and the HS24 have been tested at data-bass, it is fairly easy to compare. With the smaller box size, the HS24 loses about 2 dB and with much less voltage than the Powersoft, it loses more dB. The Cap 1400 was tested with its actual amp. The JTR Captivator 1400 will have more output at 16 Hz than the 24" sealed, has a flat frequency response, and is smaller and cheaper. If comparing to the 24" at data-bass.com, note that it required 100 volts to reach 16 Hz and that is with a 20 cubic ft cabinet. When you use a much smaller cabinet (although still large) like DeepSeaSound, the efficiency goes down. You loose 2-3 dB at 16 Hz. The Captivator 1400 has 3 dB more maximum output at 16 Hz and the same or more above that. Also look at what happens at 40 Hz and up. The amp used for the HS24 tests puts out up to 4x the voltage of the DeepSeaSound amp. The difference between 100 volts and 400 volts at 40 Hz is 12 dB! I don't think people realize how well the Cap 1400 tested given that is is using much less voltage than all the DIY builds used for comparison.

I would take two Cap 1400's over just about anything.
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post #32769 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
he's right.

Put those single eight's up as your front 3. Rerun your EQ program setup, and watch a movie tonight.

Turn it to 11 and be flabbergasted by just how loud and clean those S8 can go.



Still to this day - one of the loudest (if not the loudest thing) I've ever heard from a main speaker (maybe out of anything?!?!) was when Jeff Permanian was at the HuskerOmaha meet with his pair of S8 and we were in his living room and he turned them up to a ridiculous level. It was downright painful --- and still crystal clear! No sane person turns his speakers that loud in a house - ever... He just wanted to show us what they could handle.
Might experiment tonight with it, without getting too crazy. Have to disconnect everything in the morning anyway and get it out of harms way.

For sh*** and giggles, I just hooked up the S8 surrounds---didn't rerun Audyssey as I'm mounting the rears next. Wanted to hear the difference and ran 30 minutes of listening before I change out both pairs. Pulled the SPL meter out and dropped the levels down. Had to drop them in the range of -5.5 to -7.0db vs the DT monitors that were flat to +2.0. Crystal clear. Lot more detail was audible. Huge change...more than I would have thought. On some scenes I watched, I use to hear the DTs struggle and all dynamics would disappear. To the point where they were being overdriven. The S8 just sang. Quite impressive. The most interesting thing was that the projection is outstanding. It literally came out into the room more, but it also filled the back corners and beside me. I run them at 60° to MLP so that's one of the holes I created myself. Well, those holes are gone.

Obviously changing out my LCR will make the most dramatic difference. But in an HT environment, I went for eliminating my weakest links first: my cheap ass DT surrounds. First impressions, it was a smart move.

The only negative is that the higher sensitivity is causing the proamps to make them hiss like crazy. I dropped the gains on them from 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock. But then I had to turn them up to the +4 to +5 range in prepro with not much change in hiss. Anyway, once both pairs are in I will re-run audyssey a few times, get the gains where hiss is reduced, and try to get the prepro levels close to 0 or negs.
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post #32770 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
After some controversy about the midbass capability, I thought I'd have the Noesis 212HTR independently tested. Data-Bass numbers are 2 meter, rms so you need to add 9db for 1 meter peak
Reading the Data-Bass reviews just reconfirms what I knew all along....I am so glad I bought JTR speakers. Nothing like feeling
you are at the top of the food chain.

Now if I could just figure out how to integrate one of those OS LFUs with my SubMersives.....

JTR Noesis 212HTR (LR)JTR 228 (Center and Surrounds)Seaton SubMersive HP Plus and Minus (Subs)Denon 3312 (Receiver)Sherbourn PA 7-350 (Amp)Oppo BDP-103 (BluRay Player) and Sharp 80" TV
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post #32771 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
When you consider an actual amp used in the 24 sealed like the one used by DeepSeaSound, then other alignments prevail in the 16 Hz and up. So I guess I agree that the sealed 24 does best for the really low stuff - like 10 Hz and down. I've posted similar to this before.

Since both the Cap 1400 and the HS24 have been tested at data-bass, it is fairly easy to compare. With the smaller box size, the HS24 loses about 2 dB and with much less voltage than the Powersoft, it loses more dB. The Cap 1400 was tested with its actual amp. The JTR Captivator 1400 will have more output at 16 Hz than the 24" sealed, has a flat frequency response, and is smaller and cheaper. If comparing to the 24" at data-bass.com, note that it required 100 volts to reach 16 Hz and that is with a 20 cubic ft cabinet. When you use a much smaller cabinet (although still large) like DeepSeaSound, the efficiency goes down. You loose 2-3 dB at 16 Hz. The Captivator 1400 has 3 dB more maximum output at 16 Hz and the same or more above that. Also look at what happens at 40 Hz and up. The amp used for the HS24 tests puts out up to 4x the voltage of the DeepSeaSound amp. The difference between 100 volts and 400 volts at 40 Hz is 12 dB! I don't think people realize how well the Cap 1400 tested given that is is using much less voltage than all the DIY builds used for comparison.

I would take two Cap 1400's over just about anything.


Haha, Jonathan already has sellers remorse, don't rub it in!!
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post #32772 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Might experiment tonight with it, without getting too crazy. Have to disconnect everything in the morning anyway and get it out of harms way.

For sh*** and giggles, I just hooked up the S8 surrounds---didn't rerun Audyssey as I'm mounting the rears next. Wanted to hear the difference and ran 30 minutes of listening before I change out both pairs. Pulled the SPL meter out and dropped the levels down. Had to drop them in the range of -5.5 to -7.0db vs the DT monitors that were flat to +2.0. Crystal clear. Lot more detail was audible. Huge change...more than I would have thought. On some scenes I watched, I use to hear the DTs struggle and all dynamics would disappear. To the point where they were being overdriven. The S8 just sang. Quite impressive. The most interesting thing was that the projection is outstanding. It literally came out into the room more, but it also filled the back corners and beside me. I run them at 60° to MLP so that's one of the holes I created myself. Well, those holes are gone.

Obviously changing out my LCR will make the most dramatic difference. But in an HT environment, I went for eliminating my weakest links first: my cheap ass DT surrounds. First impressions, it was a smart move.

The only negative is that the higher sensitivity is causing the proamps to make them hiss like crazy. I dropped the gains on them from 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock. But then I had to turn them up to the +4 to +5 range in prepro with not much change in hiss. Anyway, once both pairs are in I will re-run audyssey a few times, get the gains where hiss is reduced, and try to get the prepro levels close to 0 or negs.

So jealous... I'd love to have single 8's for surrounds!!
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post #32773 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 05:56 PM
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Haha, Jonathan already has sellers remorse, don't rub it in!!
I have never been so shocked in my adult life than when I found out Archaea sold his JTR's!

Rivals right next to learning there was no Santa
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Rivals right next to learning there was no Santa
Please use spoiler tags.
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post #32775 of 36990 Old 11-20-2015, 06:20 PM
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Well....They worked out pretty well. Just an hour and a half to retrofit them and conceal the previous mounting holes. Pulled them in several inches to get them closer to Dolby spec of 135° so had to reroute wires. People may not like the flat black paint of pro speakers / JTR. I love how muted it is. They look awesome. Nothing visually flashy.

Was going to run Audyssey tonight and then I thought....The acoustics of the room are going to be different after the demo and construction tomorrow on the front wall. So why waste the time. Once the room is back into useable condition I'll run Audyssey then.

Hoping to find a temporary setup until I decide on an AT screen. Will probably build a shelf for the TV and run the center down low.....

I'm thinking some of you guys are going to like the port locations....Strategically at hair level for tactile effect!
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post #32777 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 08:00 AM
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Good to see the speakers and subs being tested by a 3rd party. It is a cost and hassle for Jeff but since he is and has always been honest about the specs, it's good to have that corroborated. Those who own them know the remarkable price/performance of these products. Objective tests help silence low-disinformation critics and help buyers make informed decisions. As always, the ultimate proof is in the listening in your room.

The 4 Slanted 8-LP's are ordered. Hope to have them before Xmas and will invite a few guys over for a mini GTG in Jan or Feb. PM me if interested.
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post #32778 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Since these have the same drivers and cab size would those number from DB be representative of what my 2013 versions can do?
They're very similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcodemz View Post
Incredible numbers. Did not expect such high numbers. It seems like using subs would be limiting the mid bass of the system!
There isn't cea2010 measurements for full rangespeakers. Testing high frequencies requires very different testing. Beyond the burst measurements the Noesis 212HTR performed extremely well: distotion, group delay, impulse, spectrogram, and waterfall.

"Above 55Hz the THD never reaches 5% during the loudest measurement."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
For sh*** and giggles, I just hooked up the S8 surrounds---didn't rerun Audyssey as I'm mounting the rears next.

Whenever you're introducing new speakers into a system you NEED to shut off or re-run room correction becuase it has made adjustment based on the other speakers and will great effect the new speakers.

Last edited by Jeff Permanian; 11-21-2015 at 09:00 AM.
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post #32779 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 10:00 AM
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Hey guys, just put up for sale my Piano Rosewood LS9's in the audio classifieds section of this forum (probably selling my Golden Ear suite a well) so I can move into some JTR speakers! I already own the JTR OS sub so I will be deciding on which mains to use but leaning towards the 215RT's/215RM combo up front, not sure on the rears yet for surrounds. Jeff, what are the current lead times on 210RT/215RT and 215RM? Also, can someone send me a link or PM as to how to ad a link for my LS9's for sale to my posts so someone can link the sale from there?
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post #32780 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 10:12 AM
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Hey guys, just put up for sale my Piano Rosewood LS9's in the audio classifieds section of this forum (probably selling my Golden Ear suite a well) so I can move into some JTR speakers! I already own the JTR OS sub so I will be deciding on which mains to use but leaning towards the 215RT's/215RM combo up front, not sure on the rears yet for surrounds. Jeff, what are the current lead times on 210RT/215RT and 215RM? Also, can someone send me a link or PM as to how to ad a link for my LS9's for sale to my posts so someone can link the sale from there?
I would like to know how to do this also if it isn't against the rules
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post #32781 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by vince32837 View Post
David..
Thanks its been a long road since your wonderful 2014 GTG..

Let's see completion date-
JTR Speakers- week of 11-16
Seymour 150" wide screen week of 11-16
JVC RS500 proj. Dec xx
Crest cc5500 amps nov-dec
Marantz av8801- Dec

I'm going try squeeze NFM to order me your palliser rhumba chairs less than msrp..

I hope rhumba chairs can put together inside room, do they fit through standard door?

Looking at Jan-feb 2016 finish or so..

Vince
Sorry for the delay on this questions Vince. Did you order the Pallisers? And yes, they did fit through my door to the theater.

Post pictures at some point!!
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post #32782 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 11:02 AM
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I would like to know how to do this also if it isn't against the rules
I see it on many other peoples posts so by that I don't believe it's against the rules but I am clueless as to how to do it and am not sure if you have to pay any additional fees to have that option.
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post #32783 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 12:03 PM
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I see it on many other peoples posts so by that I don't believe it's against the rules but I am clueless as to how to do it and am not sure if you have to pay any additional fees to have that option.
Someone PM'd me that they got an infraction for doing this.
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post #32784 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 01:48 PM
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So, this is my take on the lack of midbass I experienced with my 212LP.
The issue is in my room, to get that type of midbass that Ricci reported, we would either need a external eq or to listen to everything beyond insane loud.
The speakers are so efficient, it takes only a few watts to get them to reference in most of our rooms. How can we get huge midbass if the speaker is running at 10% of capability? Eq is the only answer and for alot of people, if your processor can't do it, that's as far as it goes.
In my room, I had to go 20dB over reference just to get the drivers to barley move lol.

I added my 2242 modules, ran them off of an extra sub output and had the inuke DSP to tune them. It made a HUGE difference since I could tweak the 150-60hz region to my liking, which was about 13dB hot.
It's not that you couldn't do that with the 212s, as I did try it with the inuke but I didn't want to use a pro to run them as I already had my dsonic.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #32785 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 01:48 PM
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So, this is my take on the lack of midbass I experienced with my 212LP.
The issue is in my room, to get that type of midbass that Ricci reported, we would either need a external eq or to listen to everything beyond insane loud.
The speakers are so efficient, it takes only a few watts to get them to reference in most of our rooms. How can we get huge midbass if the speaker is running at 10% of capability? Eq is the only answer and for alot of people, if your processor can't do it, that's as far as it goes.
In my room, I had to go 20dB over reference just to get the drivers to barley move lol.

I added my 2242 modules, ran them off of an extra sub output and had the inuke DSP to tune them. It made a HUGE difference since I could tweak the 150-60hz region to my liking, which was about 13dB hot.
It's not that you couldn't do that with the 212s, as I did try it with the inuke but I didn't want to use a pro to run them as I already had my dsonic.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #32786 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 03:44 PM
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Hey Jeff what is the current lead times for your line in general? Do you have anything in stock ready to ship?
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post #32787 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
Hey Jeff what is the current lead times for your line in general? Do you have anything in stock ready to ship?
He has quite a bit stocked and posted it a couple pages back. I would post the link but gotta run. Sorry
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post #32788 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 07:54 PM
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Hey guys, was a Pro Audio JTR user and now out of that world, looking to do a build with JTR for the HT. Looking for T8s, T12s, S8s. I've got 6 growlers, 4 are 2010 and 2 are Dec 2014s if anyone wants to pick any of them up.

I'd like to keep a pair of GRs crossed over at 100hz for bottom end of L/R and add an OS for LFE.

Anyway wanted to say hey and share where I am, what I have, what I need, what I don't need, and get some general input.

Happy Turkey Day week!


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post #32789 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by razevents View Post
Hey guys, was a Pro Audio JTR user and now out of that world, looking to do a build with JTR for the HT. Looking for T8s, T12s, S8s. I've got 6 growlers, 4 are 2010 and 2 are Dec 2014s if anyone wants to pick any of them up.

I'd like to keep a pair of GRs crossed over at 100hz for bottom end of L/R and add an OS for LFE.

Anyway wanted to say hey and share where I am, what I have, what I need, what I don't need, and get some general input.

Happy Turkey Day week!


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Where are you located?
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post #32790 of 36990 Old 11-21-2015, 09:01 PM
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Hoping to finalize things with Jeff with the 4 210RT's. As soon as he has chance to get back to me. I was on the JTR website checking out the specs between the 212HTR and the 210RT. Being they're at the same price point. I assume with the 212's you get higher sensitivity and spl (134db)? But with a higher tune roll off? And the 210 lower sensitivity and lower spl (130db)? But with a lower tune roll off? I mean I know I would have to run amps with the 210's. But would there be other strong and weak points comparing the two? Btw, here's some interesting read here on AVS running FR surrounds..

who is using Towers or full range for the surrounds?
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