Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1129 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Per the picture earlier, the whole in/out process of going through the MOTU to a Mac Mini for correction and back out is only supposed to be 1.4 ms. Therefore there really should be no noticeable delay with external sources.
Now I want to try. Is it the Thunderbolt connection that allows for the low latency? I thought USB on PC was measured around 15-16ms in/out with Jriver (although I forget the interface being used). Using the interface at it's minimum buffer settings is not reliable. You'd think you need to use the lower buffer settings to hit 1.4ms. Seems too good to be true.
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Yes, the Atmos decoding would be on an external processor. One can bitstream out of JRiver and then feed a decoded signal back in for processing. This only works with the MOTU audio devices, though. If you run the JRiver server on the HTPC, then you need to manually launch the 2nd instance of JRiver with each reboot.

Dirac has a long way to go to match the capability of Audiolense XO. Dr. Bernt Rønningsbakk has developed an incredible product and brilliant implementation in Audiolense.
Then why purchase a studio version of Dirac?
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Minidsp makes a balanced version also.
Thanks much Raynist! I'm gonna take a closer look.
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Yes, but there are two crossover parts that need to be swapped in the 2015 verions.




There are inline crossovers available.


http://www.parts-express.com/harriso...s-rca--266-248


On a side note, many of the pro audio amplifiers have infrasonic filters. Most of the QSC amps have either a 33hz or selectable 30hz or 50hz.


Yes, they will work.
Thanks Jeff!
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Now I want to try. Is it the Thunderbolt connection that allows for the low latency? I thought USB on PC was measured around 15-16ms in/out with Jriver (although I forget the interface being used). Using the interface at it's minimum buffer settings is not reliable. You'd think you need to use the lower buffer settings to hit 1.4ms. Seems too good to be true.
I just tested my MOTU with USB using the RTL Utility and got a round trip latency of 4.969 with a sample rate of 96 kHz and buffer size of 128 samples. I got 5.215 with a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and 64 samples. This is probably similar to how MOTU tested with Thunderbolt. There is some latency that will be added by JRiver in real life use.

The sample sizes I used are much smaller than I normally use so I'm not sure how stable the tested ones are.

I also have the Lynx Aurora 16-Thunderbolt and Lynx says they get much lower latency with Thunderbolt than with USB in their testing.

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Old 02-03-2016, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Then why purchase a studio version of Dirac?
Why use Omnimic vs REW? Consumer ease of use with a very easy workflow and a manual goes a long way in eliminating frustrations. Also, Dirac has a larger customer support system that a customer can go to.

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Old 02-03-2016, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
It sounds like you are running into some nuances of bass management on your surround processor. It's hard to offer much, since those things are all different. Try experimenting with different bass mgmt settings and different playback modes (Stereo, Multichannel, Direct, Etc.). On my Yamaha, Direct disables bass mgmt, so I never use that.

I'm glad someone else got to hear JTRs with a Parasound Ax1 amp. I love my A51 with my JTRs. Once you get the bass mgmt figured out, that Acurus will probably work great on the center channel after you add room correction.

I'm not sure if this is what you are experiencing, but when I changed to JTR speakers, I found the soundstage was narrower compared to my previous speakers. I moved the LRs further apart to compensate, and I really liked the results.
Figured it out, called Marantz they were telling me in multi channel stereo it sends limited signals to all the speakers but the mains.

I ran Audssey and watched Mad Dogs and quite frankly I am hearing / feeling so much that I've never heard before with my other center channels. Those twin 10" drivers move some air.

I can gladly say I'm a happy JTR owner. Now to get the 210RT's and some slanted 8lps. Might have some Salk ht2 tl's for sale soon.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Added: You can use True Time Delay with a filter length of 16,384 taps and the delay almost matches perfectly with the 140 ms on my JVC RS500 projector. This filter length is still much higher resolution than the miniDSP uses in its openDRC series.
Does audiolense let you specify the frequency range for the 16k tap filter and then merge that with additional (typically iir) filters into a single final output filter (that still has the latency characteristics of a 16k tap linear phase filter)?

Edit: if not, you could just use jriver peq and crossovers for the low end

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Old 02-03-2016, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Now I want to try. Is it the Thunderbolt connection that allows for the low latency? I thought USB on PC was measured around 15-16ms in/out with Jriver (although I forget the interface being used). Using the interface at it's minimum buffer settings is not reliable. You'd think you need to use the lower buffer settings to hit 1.4ms. Seems too good to be true.
If you are referring to my test then that was through jriver which has additional buffers in play. I was using FireWire 800 BTW.
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post
Figured it out, called Marantz they were telling me in multi channel stereo it sends limited signals to all the speakers but the mains.

I ran Audssey and watched Mad Dogs and quite frankly I am hearing / feeling so much that I've never heard before with my other center channels. Those twin 10" drivers move some air.

I can gladly say I'm a happy JTR owner. Now to get the 210RT's and some slanted 8lps. Might have some Salk ht2 tl's for sale soon.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Great to hear!

The 210RT's are impressive!
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:12 PM
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I've been working on an idea for @dlbeck which I came to some conclusions this morning. He has been wanting to move to Atmos while retaining all the correction capability of Audiolense. Several of you have heard his system and have been very impressed.

By using a MOTU 1248 (12 channels), MOTU 16a (16 channels), or MOTU 24ai/ao (24 channels) with a Mac Mini connected via Thunderbolt, I can maximize the power of JRiver and its convolution engine to provide extensive room correction for any Atmos system. It would be like the miniDSP DDRC-88a, but with the processing system separate from the input/output. This enables one to use the highest quality AD/DA conversion with no almost signal chain rolloff (slight rolloff below 3 Hz on the input with no rolloff on output) and correct up to 16 speaker channels and 8 independent subwoofer channels.

This is Datasata and Trinnov (both standalone computers) level stuff at the affordable JTR prices.

One would have unlimited setups available with the ability to easily switch between them on an iPad.

This is very exciting news as I have been wanting to utilize my HTPC for room correction while using all the wonderful features of jriver and still be able to enjoy atmos or dts-x audio - might be the solution for me. Please when you find time share all the details

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Old 02-03-2016, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Why use Omnimic vs REW? Consumer ease of use with a very easy workflow and a manual goes a long way in eliminating frustrations. Also, Dirac has a larger customer support system that a customer can go to.
I mean why are YOU looking to purchase a studio version of Dirac if you prefer Audiolense?
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:10 PM
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I've been working on an idea for @dlbeck which I came to some conclusions this morning. He has been wanting to move to Atmos while retaining all the correction capability of Audiolense. Several of you have heard his system and have been very impressed.



By using a MOTU 1248 (12 channels), MOTU 16a (16 channels), or MOTU 24ai/ao (24 channels) with a Mac Mini connected via Thunderbolt, I can maximize the power of JRiver and its convolution engine to provide extensive room correction for any Atmos system. It would be like the miniDSP DDRC-88a, but with the processing system separate from the input/output. This enables one to use the highest quality AD/DA conversion with no almost signal chain rolloff (slight rolloff below 3 Hz on the input with no rolloff on output) and correct up to 16 speaker channels and 8 independent subwoofer channels.



This is Datasata and Trinnov (both standalone computers) level stuff at the affordable JTR prices.



One would have unlimited setups available with the ability to easily switch between them on an iPad.




This would be with an external amp to each speaker? Sounds awesome
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Old 02-03-2016, 09:40 PM
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Edit: meant to post this in the Orbit Shifter thread. I have dual OS LFUs and just ordered 3 212HTRs. Current mains are Energy RC-70s.

Well, I moved the subs all over the room last night. I laid them down on their sides at the front wall and frequency response was not consistent. Then, I couldn't get my fingers underneath them with the low pile carpet to attempt to pick it back up upright (where I can slide around easily with furniture sliders on the feet). So, I pushed them around on the floor which was daunting task. I finally ended up with decent response fairly nearfield. I put the mains on the corners and tilted them down to the listening position. I then ran Dirac adding a house curve and then added 10 db back into the subs on the levels and then ran REW. The LPF is set to 80 hz. The sub gain is 12 o'clock, as is the crossover and the LF adjust. Didn't need to mess with the delay since the subs are pretty identical in placement currently (I did experiment when I had the subs about 4 feet separate and clearly saw the difference in the response with and without).

Long story short, the response is pretty flat. It sounds pretty good, but I'm not blown away by my results, probably more attributable to my "weak" mains.

On that note, I ordered 3 212HTRs from Jeff today.



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Old 02-04-2016, 05:11 AM
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Hi fellas

JTR Noesis 215RT's featured here:

Audioholics | Towers of Power: A Look at the Best Super Speakers

Cheers!
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoProdigy View Post
Edit: meant to post this in the Orbit Shifter thread. I have dual OS LFUs and just ordered 3 212HTRs. Current mains are Energy RC-70s.

Well, I moved the subs all over the room last night. I laid them down on their sides at the front wall and frequency response was not consistent. Then, I couldn't get my fingers underneath them with the low pile carpet to attempt to pick it back up upright (where I can slide around easily with furniture sliders on the feet). So, I pushed them around on the floor which was daunting task. I finally ended up with decent response fairly nearfield. I put the mains on the corners and tilted them down to the listening position. I then ran Dirac adding a house curve and then added 10 db back into the subs on the levels and then ran REW. The LPF is set to 80 hz. The sub gain is 12 o'clock, as is the crossover and the LF adjust. Didn't need to mess with the delay since the subs are pretty identical in placement currently (I did experiment when I had the subs about 4 feet separate and clearly saw the difference in the response with and without).

Long story short, the response is pretty flat. It sounds pretty good, but I'm not blown away by my results, probably more attributable to my "weak" mains.

On that note, I ordered 3 212HTRs from Jeff today.



Really like your space. Good luck with dialing everything in! 2 OS = good times.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:56 AM
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Edit: meant to post this in the Orbit Shifter thread. I have dual OS LFUs and just ordered 3 212HTRs. Current mains are Energy RC-70s.

Well, I moved the subs all over the room last night. I laid them down on their sides at the front wall and frequency response was not consistent. Then, I couldn't get my fingers underneath them with the low pile carpet to attempt to pick it back up upright (where I can slide around easily with furniture sliders on the feet). So, I pushed them around on the floor which was daunting task. I finally ended up with decent response fairly nearfield. I put the mains on the corners and tilted them down to the listening position. I then ran Dirac adding a house curve and then added 10 db back into the subs on the levels and then ran REW. The LPF is set to 80 hz. The sub gain is 12 o'clock, as is the crossover and the LF adjust. Didn't need to mess with the delay since the subs are pretty identical in placement currently (I did experiment when I had the subs about 4 feet separate and clearly saw the difference in the response with and without).

Long story short, the response is pretty flat. It sounds pretty good, but I'm not blown away by my results, probably more attributable to my "weak" mains.

On that note, I ordered 3 212HTRs from Jeff today.
That was a fast and and spot on determination. You are going to be entering a new level of audio performance and with your choices, you are at the very top of the food chain. From this point on, you can only make lateral moves.
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Old 02-04-2016, 11:51 AM
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Hi fellas

JTR Noesis 215RT's featured here:

Audioholics | Towers of Power: A Look at the Best Super Speakers

Cheers!
http://www.audioholics.com/recommend...mparison-guide

It's pretty cool that Jeff made both the Super subwoofer and Super speaker list. His products deserve the recognition.

Chris
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:02 PM
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I mean why are YOU looking to purchase a studio version of Dirac if you prefer Audiolense?
If you have signatures turned off you won't see mine. I have a business called High Impact AV (listed in my signature) and some customers want a solution they can implement themselves without too much hand holding. Dirac seems to fit in here. Also, I haven't tried the studio version of Dirac. I believe it adds crossovers and more extensive routing capability. If I try it I may like it.

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This would be with an external amp to each speaker? Sounds awesome
Yes
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:07 PM
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Guys-

I know Im late to the John Wick Party (club scene)

I finally got a moment alone, family gone, allowed the OS LFU sub into 4th gear!

The concrete corner loaded OS can thump my chest every gun shot.. Its crazy!!

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I scare guests into nervous glee with that scene. Welcome to the dark side.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:17 PM
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Edit: meant to post this in the Orbit Shifter thread. I have dual OS LFUs and just ordered 3 212HTRs. Current mains are Energy RC-70s.

Well, I moved the subs all over the room last night. I laid them down on their sides at the front wall and frequency response was not consistent. Then, I couldn't get my fingers underneath them with the low pile carpet to attempt to pick it back up upright (where I can slide around easily with furniture sliders on the feet). So, I pushed them around on the floor which was daunting task. I finally ended up with decent response fairly nearfield. I put the mains on the corners and tilted them down to the listening position. I then ran Dirac adding a house curve and then added 10 db back into the subs on the levels and then ran REW. The LPF is set to 80 hz. The sub gain is 12 o'clock, as is the crossover and the LF adjust. Didn't need to mess with the delay since the subs are pretty identical in placement currently (I did experiment when I had the subs about 4 feet separate and clearly saw the difference in the response with and without).

Long story short, the response is pretty flat. It sounds pretty good, but I'm not blown away by my results, probably more attributable to my "weak" mains.

On that note, I ordered 3 212HTRs from Jeff today.



That picture and placement of the shifters is hilarious....You sir, have real will power.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:51 PM
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That picture and placement of the shifters is hilarious....You sir, have real will power.
My cap1400s will literally vibrate the 75lb 228s right off of them....I"m not sure how those towers are actually staying put on the OS!!
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Old 02-04-2016, 07:21 PM
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I just tested my MOTU with USB using the RTL Utility and got a round trip latency of 4.969 with a sample rate of 96 kHz and buffer size of 128 samples. I got 5.215 with a sample rate of 44.1 kHz and 64 samples. This is probably similar to how MOTU tested with Thunderbolt. There is some latency that will be added by JRiver in real life use.

The sample sizes I used are much smaller than I normally use so I'm not sure how stable the tested ones are.

I also have the Lynx Aurora 16-Thunderbolt and Lynx says they get much lower latency with Thunderbolt than with USB in their testing.
I did a quick test over USB. Just passed the L/C/R into JRiver input via asio and out asio. Just some crude graphic eq and it works perfectly. I did not test latency, but no lip sync issues that I could see. Still need to test with convolution. I'll play around more Saturday.

At first Jriver was crashing trying to open more than 2 asio channels. I guess there is a bug in the current stable version of 21 and it's fixed in a later version.

We may want to take this to another thread. This is very interesting. Thunderbolt may not be necessary.
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Old 02-04-2016, 10:47 PM
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That picture and placement of the shifters is hilarious....You sir, have real will power.
Glad I could give you a laugh, lol. I think all of us are a bit disturbed in our obsessions with this stuff, but admittedly, sometimes my tweaking and experimenting goes to an odd extreme.

On that note...

Flipped them and moved them around to at least 10 positions. Started with them 17" from the edges of the screen and an inch away. Huge null. Moved them out some, still huge null but better, probably due to reflections from front wall? I moved them to the closest possible orientation with 17" in between them (as in the 212HTR would go vertically between) and that improved response. I ended up with them pushed 50" out from the front wall and ended up with decent (compared to what I've been seeing) response on REW. I moved mains in place and am listening now, and this is definitely the most tactile they have been.

I'm wondering if my moving them out so far from the wall, which improves/evens out response will translate when I move them into the proposed spot just behind the screen wall into storage room firing into theater. The room is over 10 feet deep there, and I can really bass trap the hell out the area behind the subs/mains.



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Old 02-05-2016, 12:01 AM
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At first Jriver was crashing trying to open more than 2 asio channels. I guess there is a bug in the current stable version of 21 and it's fixed in a later version.
You need 21.0.27+

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Old 02-05-2016, 06:15 AM
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We may want to take this to another thread. This is very interesting.
Please post the link if you do, this is definitely interesting.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoProdigy View Post
Glad I could give you a laugh, lol. I think all of us are a bit disturbed in our obsessions with this stuff, but admittedly, sometimes my tweaking and experimenting goes to an odd extreme.

On that note...

Flipped them and moved them around to at least 10 positions. Started with them 17" from the edges of the screen and an inch away. Huge null. Moved them out some, still huge null but better, probably due to reflections from front wall? I moved them to the closest possible orientation with 17" in between them (as in the 212HTR would go vertically between) and that improved response. I ended up with them pushed 50" out from the front wall and ended up with decent (compared to what I've been seeing) response on REW. I moved mains in place and am listening now, and this is definitely the most tactile they have been.

I'm wondering if my moving them out so far from the wall, which improves/evens out response will translate when I move them into the proposed spot just behind the screen wall into storage room firing into theater. The room is over 10 feet deep there, and I can really bass trap the hell out the area behind the subs/mains.
Sounds like you tried everything, but just in case...have you tried opposing corners? With 2 subs, I've had the best luck with opposing center walls on the long axis and with opposing corners. For me, opposing center wall gave the flattest response, but opposing corners worked best overall (much more output, peaks that could be EQ'ed, no nulls). Also, the time alignment changes things. I have always preferred time aligning subs at the MLP, regardless of FR.

YMMV with this stuff, since every room is so different. The massive bass trap sounds like a reasonable solution, but my first strategy would be to make sure you have subs on opposite sides of the room axis creating the null. I haven't had good luck with two subs on one side of the room, except for a very open floorplan.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoProdigy View Post
Glad I could give you a laugh, lol. I think all of us are a bit disturbed in our obsessions with this stuff, but admittedly, sometimes my tweaking and experimenting goes to an odd extreme.

On that note...

Flipped them and moved them around to at least 10 positions. Started with them 17" from the edges of the screen and an inch away. Huge null. Moved them out some, still huge null but better, probably due to reflections from front wall? I moved them to the closest possible orientation with 17" in between them (as in the 212HTR would go vertically between) and that improved response. I ended up with them pushed 50" out from the front wall and ended up with decent (compared to what I've been seeing) response on REW. I moved mains in place and am listening now, and this is definitely the most tactile they have been.

I'm wondering if my moving them out so far from the wall, which improves/evens out response will translate when I move them into the proposed spot just behind the screen wall into storage room firing into theater. The room is over 10 feet deep there, and I can really bass trap the hell out the area behind the subs/mains.
Subs the size of the OS do create problems due to location limitations. I dropped my OS's in a horizontal position along my front wall and placed my main speakers on top (used Great Grammas to decouple). I was able to get a nice RF graph out of this position so they never moved. Having all of that space behind the OS's will change the response and does give you options for treatments that many others do not have.

I know that low bass is supposed to be non-directional but one thing I really liked about having the OS's (and other subs I owned) placed on the front wall was the feeling that the bass was coming from the front of the room. That is the source for primary audio and video and having the bass emanate from the same location made sense to me. I've had subs behind and on the sides and it was never as realistic as having the bass energy coming from the front where the action is. That is my very controversial, non-scientific $.02 ...

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Old 02-05-2016, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Sounds like you tried everything, but just in case...have you tried opposing corners? With 2 subs, I've had the best luck with opposing center walls on the long axis and with opposing corners. For me, opposing center wall gave the flattest response, but opposing corners worked best overall (much more output, peaks that could be EQ'ed, no nulls). Also, the time alignment changes things. I have always preferred time aligning subs at the MLP, regardless of FR.

YMMV with this stuff, since every room is so different. The massive bass trap sounds like a reasonable solution, but my first strategy would be to make sure you have subs on opposite sides of the room axis creating the null. I haven't had good luck with two subs on one side of the room, except for a very open floorplan.
When you say opposing corners, do you mean diagonally across the room? I did move a sub to the left rear corner and the response wasn't terrible facing the rear wall (south), but I don't recall whether I had the other sub in the front right corner at the time, whether I measured it separately and together. In short, I don't know, but maybe I'll feel inclined to push them around some more tonight...
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:36 AM
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I have a question regarding subs and placement. I have two Seaton submersives in the front of my room about 10 feet apart one happens to be corner loaded.

I've never felt like I was lacking bass but I'm Tempted to get a 3rd submersive and place it behind my sectional also corner loaded.

It would end up two in the front next to my main speakers and one in the back, any guesses if I would notice a big difference getting the 3rd?

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