Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1138 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #34111 of 34778 Old 02-21-2016, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by APRisti View Post
Thinking of moving the coax from my triple8ht-lp and triple12 from middle to the top slot. is it easy to swap out the speakers ?
Yes it's easy as the speakers have no top or bottom with the center coax. The main issue is if the wires from the crossover to the CD are too short (not a problem if you move the coax closer to the crossover). I recall having to re-route some wires but it wasn't difficult. You should remove the Coax and trace the wires to the crossover and mark them. Do the same with the woofers and you should be fine.
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post #34112 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 12:09 AM
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This is why HT's are fun. Everyone likes something different! I know lots of people that HATE nf subs and personally, I couldnt have a theater any other way.
It's really common for people to have a good or bad experience and make broad generalizations about things.

NF gets you a lot more output.

Everything else about it is specific to your room and setup.

That's the trouble with subs, in particular. Everything is so room dependent that it's very difficult to give advice that's actually helpful in other rooms.

That said, 4x subs in the corners of my room + good EQ + time alignment worked great in my room, so I recommend that for everyone. I also recommend hypocracy - and irony.
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post #34113 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
It's really common for people to have a good or bad experience and make broad generalizations about things.

NF gets you a lot more output.

Everything else about it is specific to your room and setup.

That's the trouble with subs, in particular. Everything is so room dependent that it's very difficult to give advice that's actually helpful in other rooms.

That said, 4x subs in the corners of my room + good EQ + time alignment worked great in my room, so I recommend that for everyone. I also recommend hypocracy - and irony.
Or the other option is to have the HT or media room on a second level suspended deck.. Lots of tactile feel with subs place anywhere without NF..
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post #34114 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 05:34 AM
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That reminds me...for tactile feel, there is also the option of tactile transducers, like Crowsons. I've never tried them myself, but a lot of people swear by them. Apparently when set up well, they feel like amazing bass - not a gimmicky special effect - something that can be impractical to achieve with subs in a large room with a concrete slab or with bad nulls. They are also better for ears, neighbors, and structural integrity.

Lots of options to pick from - too many really.
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post #34115 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 07:34 AM
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At the end of the day, there are just way too many uncertainties about running single sub1 out of prepro, to a single 88A channel, to 2x4 for combined response of three 1400s. In particular, if gain matching them, then the 1400 directly behind MLP would just be teeth rattling while the two up front would be imperceptible from MLP.

So it's really leading me to believe that the best solution is to run the NF sub from the prepro sub2 output with no EQ (no DL). This allows for on the fly sub trim adjustments to the NF alone and also allows me to potentially use an iNuke3000DSP for some minimal EQ and settings on-board the amp. By not using the 88A for a combined sub response, I also do not have to apply the same HPF to the NF as I do with the port-tune of the two front 1400s, resulting in more ULF from a custom,sealed NF sub. Once miniDSP introduces their bass mgmt upgrade to the 88A in a few weeks, I can always choose to utilize one of my 16 DL chs and EQ the subs independently.

Alternatively, I could still run an NF 1400 and level-match it to the gain-matched front pair. Then all three 1400s could still be combined to a single sub channel on the 88A/2x4 and still have DL applied.

Any other 88A/2x4 users with NF subs? How do you handle this? Level-matching? No EQ on NF sub and run via sub2 output of AVR? Something else?
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post #34116 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
At the end of the day, there are just way too many uncertainties about running single sub1 out of prepro, to a single 88A channel, to 2x4 for combined response of three 1400s. In particular, if gain matching them, then the 1400 directly behind MLP would just be teeth rattling while the two up front would be imperceptible from MLP.

So it's really leading me to believe that the best solution is to run the NF sub from the prepro sub2 output with no EQ (no DL). This allows for on the fly sub trim adjustments to the NF alone and also allows me to potentially use an iNuke3000DSP for some minimal EQ and settings on-board the amp. By not using the 88A for a combined sub response, I also do not have to apply the same HPF to the NF as I do with the port-tune of the two front 1400s, resulting in more ULF from a custom,sealed NF sub. Once miniDSP introduces their bass mgmt upgrade to the 88A in a few weeks, I can always choose to utilize one of my 16 DL chs and EQ the subs independently.

Alternatively, I could still run an NF 1400 and level-match it to the gain-matched front pair. Then all three 1400s could still be combined to a single sub channel on the 88A/2x4 and still have DL applied.

Any other 88A/2x4 users with NF subs? How do you handle this? Level-matching? No EQ on NF sub and run via sub2 output of AVR? Something else?

What I bolded is essentially the question I was trying to ask on the 88a thread lastnight. I don't see how you could gain match that NF sub with the front pair for the reason you've identified. It would have to be treated separately or at least the gain would have to be adjusted accordingly to the amount of NF you desire. What you'll absolutely have to do is time align it but with respect to gain...I guess experimentation will be required. I've place my order for a balanced 2x4 and am going to experiment with my older pair of SVS subs to see how well I can/can't blend them together (with my 1400 pair) and what effect 3 and 4 have on my FR prior to Dirac. Good luck to you.

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post #34117 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
What I bolded is essentially the question I was trying to ask on the 88a thread lastnight. I don't see how you could gain match that NF sub with the front pair for the reason you've identified. It would have to be treated separately or at least the gain would have to be adjusted accordingly to the amount of NF you desire. What you'll absolutely have to do is time align it but with respect to gain...I guess experimentation will be required. I've place my order for a balanced 2x4 and am going to experiment with my older pair of SVS subs to see how well I can/can't blend them together (with my 1400 pair) and what effect 3 and 4 have on my FR prior to Dirac. Good luck to you.
Same to you. You should be great with 10' and 14' with three 1400s. You'll have no issue with the 2x4.

I'm still at that point where I'm between a custom enclosure,Dayton driver, and iNuke3000DSP or another 1400. Problem is, I can't in good faith buy anything and then experiment....Or I'll likely end up buying the other alternative if it doesn't work out. I really just need to determine IF sub combined eq or IF NOT sub combined eq on the NF....That's what it really comes down to. If I do combine them then there's no question a matching third 1400 and then experiment with how to gain/level match the three caps. If I don't combine them, I'm better off saving the money, getting something smaller, having additional ULF with a custom and an iNuke. But that could also wreak havoc on my rooms LF response....
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post #34118 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 09:25 AM
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Screen wall modifications in progress. Mains and subs should be in the storage room by the end of the day.

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post #34119 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 09:39 AM
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Other thing I like to add if a HT or media room is on a suspended deck. Is that energy from the LF (subs) is dispersed everywhere in the room. The floor, seats, walls, and pretty much the whole house. It's like your own theme park ride. Lol.. In movies gun shots are felt, earthquakes scenes are virtually realistic (WOTW pod emerge scene is my favorite), car chases, etc. That's the beauty of being on a second level deck..
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post #34120 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 10:24 AM
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This is all theory...not something I've tried...

I think there's something to be said for running 2x corner-loaded subs in front with 1x nearfield sub away from walls.

The corner loading + 2x sub in front should do a reasonable job balancing a lone near-field sub.

You may be able to cancel out some nulls and get some substantial improvements over a single nearfield.

I would still time align and EQ them as a group, rather than separately. EQ'ing subs separately can be messy.
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post #34121 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
At the end of the day, there are just way too many uncertainties about running single sub1 out of prepro, to a single 88A channel, to 2x4 for combined response of three 1400s. In particular, if gain matching them, then the 1400 directly behind MLP would just be teeth rattling while the two up front would be imperceptible from MLP.

So it's really leading me to believe that the best solution is to run the NF sub from the prepro sub2 output with no EQ (no DL). This allows for on the fly sub trim adjustments to the NF alone and also allows me to potentially use an iNuke3000DSP for some minimal EQ and settings on-board the amp. By not using the 88A for a combined sub response, I also do not have to apply the same HPF to the NF as I do with the port-tune of the two front 1400s, resulting in more ULF from a custom,sealed NF sub. Once miniDSP introduces their bass mgmt upgrade to the 88A in a few weeks, I can always choose to utilize one of my 16 DL chs and EQ the subs independently.

Alternatively, I could still run an NF 1400 and level-match it to the gain-matched front pair. Then all three 1400s could still be combined to a single sub channel on the 88A/2x4 and still have DL applied.

Any other 88A/2x4 users with NF subs? How do you handle this? Level-matching? No EQ on NF sub and run via sub2 output of AVR? Something else?

The most success I have found, and I think your best course of action: Treat your front two subs (Sub Out #1) that are equidistant to the listening position (also symmetrical to the room no?) as one single sub. Let dirac see it as that AND the minidsp. In the mini EQ them as one and split the input signal to use two (of the four) outputs. Tune/EQ your system to this setup specifically for the time being. You shouldn't have delay differences between the two as they are same distance away. Add in the nearfield, from the Sub Out #2 , and straight to your second input on the miniDSP, bypassing the dirac unit until it will allow for multiple sub management. This will allow you set delays either via the receiver, or in your minidsp, once again, whichever you choose. This will take up the third output of your mini, going straight to your nearfield sub.

Problems fixed. Now, when Dirac does its bass management update, with the amount of channels you have available, I would think you could just do all of this through the 88a and eliminate the 2x4 from the chain completely. speaking of which, treating the front two subs a single entity, you could already do this, and just use an XLR splitter on the output of the 88a to get a cable to each Cap.
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post #34122 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 01:42 PM
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The most success I have found, and I think your best course of action: Treat your front two subs (Sub Out #1) that are equidistant to the listening position (also symmetrical to the room no?) as one single sub. Let dirac see it as that AND the minidsp. In the mini EQ them as one and split the input signal to use two (of the four) outputs. Tune/EQ your system to this setup specifically for the time being. You shouldn't have delay differences between the two as they are same distance away. Add in the nearfield, from the Sub Out #2 , and straight to your second input on the miniDSP, bypassing the dirac unit until it will allow for multiple sub management. This will allow you set delays either via the receiver, or in your minidsp, once again, whichever you choose. This will take up the third output of your mini, going straight to your nearfield sub.

Problems fixed. Now, when Dirac does its bass management update, with the amount of channels you have available, I would think you could just do all of this through the 88a and eliminate the 2x4 from the chain completely. speaking of which, treating the front two subs a single entity, you could already do this, and just use an XLR splitter on the output of the 88a to get a cable to each Cap.
It there a multi-sub fix being released for Dirac?
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post #34123 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 01:44 PM
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It there a multi-sub fix being released for Dirac?
Sort of:

MiniDSP DDRC-88A Dirac Live Update at CES 2016
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post #34124 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 03:48 PM
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IMO - ported or horn up front and sealed nearfield and you've got it made tactilely speaking.
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post #34125 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 06:25 PM
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Official JTR speaker thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post



I'm still at that point where I'm between a custom enclosure,Dayton driver, and iNuke3000DSP or another 1400.....

I think you should try each first - it would be super easy and set your mind at ease. You can theorize about it all day long, but the actual experience will make you decide. Borrow Carp's sealed ht18 for a day or two if he's game, then move one of the Caps back there and try it with the same content. Chuck would let you try the OS (I want to hear that in there if you do!), and you could try my Othorn too, but I think either of those is going to be too big for behind the MLP, from what you describe. Run the front 3db hotter at the MLP compared to the NF so that the NF isn't as audible. Horns, sealed, ported are all awesome in different ways, so play with each before you buy.
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post #34126 of 34778 Old 02-22-2016, 06:55 PM
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@Stoked21 you've got to take advantage of using that OS....even if it doesn't work out you can at least say you tried. I'd love to try one here.
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post #34127 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 08:14 AM
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Yeah would love to check out cvinfig's OS (have heard in his old HT). I think it would really be more work than it's worth though...Meaning I'd have to start re-routing sub cables, yanking down panels around the screen front, turning off DL EQ or potentially having to run new DLCT to show the OS at it's best in my room. And even then the OS would likely be sitting in the middle of the room due to it's size. Not to mention getting that goliath down my small switch-back stair case! Seems like a lot of work just to play around with something that is out of budget and probably physically too big to ever have a home anywhere in my room....

I like @beastaudio recommendation on the NF.....He's saying the exact same thing I was theorizing about in the 88A thread. For now, I broke from the JTR line in my HT and bought a Dayton UM18-22 and an iNuke3000DSP for NF. I figured it's a low-cost <$600 investment that can easily be flipped with minimal loss if I go another route in the future. I'll still likely add a third 1400, but for now, I'm focusing on an inexpensive NF and hoping that 88ABM upgrade is really released in the next few weeks as they claim....

I figure with my existing two 1400s, a custom NF, and the 88ABM plug-in, and REW, I can experiment for weeks and determine exactly what is best and what I prefer. Then maybe this spring/summer I add more woofage....
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post #34128 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 09:07 AM
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@PianoProdigy does that photo relate to a build thread or any thread for that matter covering your changes and work being done? I am intrigued.

Projector: BenQ w1500 + ES Sable 135" Screen AVR: Onkyo TX-NR646 ATMOS DTS-X + Darbee
Speakers: Polk Audio TSX550t (FL/FR), CS2 Series II (C), Monitor40 Series II (RL/RR),
Onkyo THX Bookshelf Speakers (Ceiling L/R), (2) JL Audio 12" Subs + (2) Dayton Sub-1500 + (2) ButtKicker LFE
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post #34129 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
I like beastaudio's recommendation on the NF.....He's saying the exact same thing I was theorizing about in the 88A thread. For now, I broke from the JTR line in my HT and bought a Dayton UM18-22 and an iNuke3000DSP for NF. I figured it's a low-cost <$600 investment that can easily be flipped with minimal loss if I go another route in the future. I'll still likely add a third 1400, but for now, I'm focusing on an inexpensive NF and hoping that 88ABM upgrade is really released in the next few weeks as they claim....

I figure with my existing two 1400s, a custom NF, and the 88ABM plug-in, and REW, I can experiment for weeks and determine exactly what is best and what I prefer. Then maybe this spring/summer I add more woofage....
Once you decide you like it, you can keep a similar form factor and go to the JTR S1 and get considerable more output than the UM18-22/iNuke3000DSP combo.

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post #34130 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 10:37 AM
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DD,

...?

Regarding his NF choice -
A) Chances are --- he won't be pushing that thing even close to max SPL if it's mounted close to the rear of his main listing position with the driver facing the seat. Mine becomes tactilely offensive at excessive volume levels. Last movie night I held at my house two of the three guys said the nearfield 18" UM18-22 felt like it was physically making their teeth chatter at certain points in the movie and asked me to turn it down (and we were no where near max output). (the third guy said he loved it. )
B) Output differences on the S1 vs. DIY UM18-22 won't be that terribly significant, though yes the S1 would have an output advantage. Assuming the Cap S1 driver is more or less equivalent to some of the other mid/high grade drivers measured on data-bass.com like the UXL-18 or thereabouts - it's probably a couple dB swing across the lower bandwidth between the two. But also noted that the Cap S1 has a tiny box - which will soak up the amp power and fight lowest frequency output. If he determines he needs more output from the NF sealed than he has with the DIY setup - he'll probably need to consider a ported or horn vs. any particularly different single sealed subwoofer offering.

my opinion anyway...

BTW - not to discount the cap S1 offering at all, ---- just objective discussion.

Last edited by Archaea; 02-23-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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post #34131 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 11:19 AM
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@PianoProdigy does that photo relate to a build thread or any thread for that matter covering your changes and work being done? I am intrigued.
I haven't started a build thread per se, but this thread has a lot of info.

Updated photo:

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post #34132 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 11:51 AM
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B) Output differences on the S1 vs. DIY UM18-22 won't be that terribly significant, though yes the S1 would have an output advantage.
The NU3000DSP has been vetted by several sources and can output a maximum of ~48 volts. It will only drive the Dayton UM18-22 driver to half excursion at best. The S1, on the other hand will be driven to full excursion and has 1.5x the displacement to start with. Up to 16 Hz, the S1 will have 2x the output and above that will have almost 4x the output. With limited space and wanting simplicity, the S1 can't be beat. The S1 and Caps even have adjustable delay on the amps.



At 16 Hz, the UM18-22 can muster 95 dB with the NU3000DSP while the dual JTR Cap 1400's will be outputting 115 dB. Even with nearfield vs farfield, the Caps should still have an advantage in output.

Finally, the S1's rolloff will be a lot shallower and it will have more low bass output through the use of its DSP. The UM18-22 can be EQ'd with the NU3000DSP, but any DSP loses headroom putting it at a further disadvantage and most can't spend the time or have the understanding for dialing in the DSP like Jeff.
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post #34133 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:09 PM
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Here goes DD, taking people to school again...

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post #34134 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
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Once you decide you like it, you can keep a similar form factor and go to the JTR S1 and get considerable more output than the UM18-22/iNuke3000DSP combo.
Or see if he could find some SI18HT's and more powerful amp? I think guys have fed them upwards of 1200 watts even though rating is less. Thats my plan is four SI18HT's behind MLP seats and those four have a Crest Pro Lite 7.5 all to themselves. 7 cu ft cab... I may possibly take the outer two and put on rear wall but extensive real world testing/feeling/listening will decide.

But I got those four drivers at $169 per and the amp for $750, then just time and material cost.
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post #34135 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:20 PM
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oops never mind, I though DD was comparing the um18 vs the JTR S1 LOL. I was like WTF hahah

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!


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post #34136 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:31 PM
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meh...


Lots of stuff I don't agree with in that post DD, actually I feel it's borderline misleading.
1) max output comparisons are useless in this usecase - you won't need it. Even so - no way the sealed Cap S1 is 4x the capability of the sealed DIY UM18-22. Probably a dB or two - maybe three, across the majority of the bandwidth.
2) you don't have numbers to support the nearfield strength of the Cap1 vs UM18-22 since the Cap S1 hasn't been measured by data-bass. If you take a look at nearly all the 18" sealed - most are within a couple db across the spectrum of the UM18-22. The built in DSP EQ on the Cap S1 will revert towards native sealed FR as the subwoofer goes to max tilt so the max spl figures comparison will be more equitable to the native FR as you approach that level of output.
2)You can't compare tactile feel of caps farfield vs. sealed nearfield with the dB numbers. Even though that's not what I was discussing. I've owned a pair of cap 4000 passive placed far field and I LOVED them (still one of my absolute favorite sub setups) -- yet the pair of them farfield can't shake my body like a single 18" nearfield sealed.

Tactilely --- Not even close between nearfield and farfield. Yes - if you put a cap 1400 behind the seat it'll knock your teeth out. But my favorite part of the nearfield is the tactile deep wobble feel -- that, you don't get with a horn or ported -- and heck - that I don't even get from my farfield sealed. (if it wasn't for the sealed nearfield experience on my basement slab theater room - I wouldn't give two toots about sealed extension)) I've said it before and I'll say it again --- for tactile feel I'd take one of my sealed 18" directly behind my seat over the other seven sealed up front. I've experimented early on with this in my room - that was my subjective takeaway when I had it setup 7 and 1.

My nearfield sub experiences
Ghorn at Dougs, Othorn at Doug’s (two of the best horns available) and a similar experience of an Orbit Shifter Pro at cvinfig’s house but off to the side. (one of the best horns available)
Cap 4000 passive at my house (one of the best ported available)
Sealed 18” SI 18 at Sheldon’s, and Austin (popalock) as well as sealed 18” UM18-22 at my place (all inexpensive sealed 18” drivers by comparison) --- and a Dayton 15” HO sealed at Nelson’s (KCNitro07).


In my particular room I'd be perfectly happy with a pair of ported Captivators or Orbit Shifters up front and a sealed 18" subwoofer (any decent sealed subwoofer - SI18, UM18-22 - whatever) behind. After experiencing quite a few rooms with 'inexpensive' sealed subwoofers in large quantity - or nearfield --- even the inexpensive sealed subs get the job done. Nearfield sealed remains my personal favorite - not the loudest, not the most tactile (horns and ported are more tactile nearfield), but I like the wobble/pulse feel the sealed create nearfield with the low frequencies that otherwise I can't detect in my room on a basement concrete slab with the sealed or other sub alignments farfield.

-------------

Subjectively speaking - - Tell @carp or @jedimastergrant that my UM18-22 nearfield don't have enough output. They were at my house fairly recently for a movie night - we watched Mad Maxx. Carp asked me to turn the bass from the nearfield down at one point cause his teeth were chattering. jedimastergrant agreed. In this scenario I'm talking about feel - not max dB.


If it's not enough tactile feel move it closer --- the proximity makes a BIG difference, even a few inches makes a big difference in my experimentation. I may not be as big of a bass hound as some of the guys like d_c or n8dogg -- but I've never been accused of having lightweight bass preferences around these parts --- that I'm aware of anyway. Knowing Derek's preferences now after visiting his house, he doesn't usually run his bass hot from the mains at all. I'd wager any of the sealed sub offerings would meet the bill. Again not discounting the Cap S1 - just saying the other is probably sufficient.



Not all of us are blessed to have a suspended wooden floor theater room that bounces the couch around like an amusement park ride. Your subs are farfield and you get that at your place. I can't compete with that tactile sensation on my concrete slab without the nearfield sub --- unless I'm prepared to have my ears ring for a week straight after every movie session.


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post #34137 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
DD, the 3000 puts out tested 2000 watts RMS @ 4 ohm bridged.
Ha, I forgot you could bridge that amp. That is 89 volts and at least lets the driver now reach its limits from 16 Hz and down.

Quote:
Also, the UM18 has been shown it's Xmax is closer to 24-26mm of usable excursion. The S1 has a 2400 watt SP amp, which likely tests out to what it's rated since they are great amps. Jeff uses the 30mm xmax driver. The differences of 20dB is impossible at 16hz regardless of any other specs. thats actually outright crazy lol

I've built with the dayton a number of times, it's a really good driver: Sure the JTR is a better sub for sure, not even close to what you posted though.
I posted that the two JTR Cap 1400's that Stoked21 owns will output 115 dB at 16 Hz. Data-bass has one at 108.9 db so add another and you get 114.9 dB. With the bridged Nu3000, there is just enough power to drive the UM18-22 to the maximum tested 16 Hz output at data-bass of 99.6 dB. That is now a 15.3 dB difference.
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post #34138 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:40 PM
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That's it!! I'm moving two of my S2's behind my seats!
And today is a exciting day.. 4 210RT's delivered.. Thanks Jeff..
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post #34139 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Ha, I forgot you could bridge that amp. That is 89 volts and at least lets the driver now reach its limits from 16 Hz and down.


I posted that the two JTR Cap 1400's that Stoked21 owns will output 115 dB at 16 Hz. Data-bass has one at 108.9 db so add another and you get 114.9 dB. With the bridged Nu3000, there is just enough power to drive the UM18-22 to the maximum tested 16 Hz output at data-bass of 99.6 dB. That is now a 15.3 dB difference.
No you were right, I read it fast and though at first you were talking like the jtr S1 could do 115db. I almost pooped haha then re read it and went doh lol

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post #34140 of 34778 Old 02-23-2016, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
1) max output comparisons are useless in this usecase - you won't need it.
Quote:
2) you don't have numbers to support the nearfield strength of the Cap1 vs UM18-22 since the Cap S1 hasn't been measured by data-bass.
At the low bass, all that matters is displacement if you have enough voltage. With the NU3000 bridged there is enough voltage to max out the driver. Easy enough to compare displacement.
Quote:
2)You can't compare tactile feel of caps farfield vs. sealed nearfield with the dB numbers
You can't do a second "2)". I do agree with you here.


Quote:
Tactilely --- Not even close. Yes - if you put a cap 1400 behind the seat it'll knock your teeth out.
I'm not suggesting putting a Cap 1400 behind his seat. He said he'll try a single UM18-22 and "Then maybe this spring/summer I add more woofage." I just suggested that he can get the more woofage with an S1 in the same footprint.

Quote:
Subjectively speaking - - Tell carp or jedimastergrant that my UM18-22 nearfield don't have enough output. They were at my house fairly recently for a movie night - we watched Mad Maxx. Carp asked me to turn the bass from the nearfield down at one point cause his teeth were chattering. jedismastergrant agreed.
That is because the nearfield output of the UM18-22 is down 30 dB at 10 Hz vs 40 Hz. You have to have it turned up so loud that the part that resonates in the body becomes uncomfortable just to get the effect of the super low bass. Use the S1 instead and the 10 Hz is only down 12 dB vs the 40 Hz. You can turn it up to feel the low bass without the body assault caused by the higher bass frequencies. You could possibly use a low pass filter on the NF sub, but part of the tactile response is getting the entire bass bandwidth.
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