Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1171 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35101 of 35612 Old 06-26-2016, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I prefer mine at 100, but that may be specific to my room.
Different people seem to have different results with that on the older 212s, but the current 212s get consistently great mid-bass reviews at 80.

Really dialing in the bass is one area where it really helps to have nice EQ. It can be a lottery how any speaker interacts with a room, and IMO, simply setting crossovers and trim levels isn't enough control.
I think SherazNJ has the EQ covered with DL on 88A.

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post #35102 of 35612 Old 06-27-2016, 06:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I prefer mine at 100, but that may be specific to my room.
Different people seem to have different results with that on the older 212s, but the current 212s get consistently great mid-bass reviews at 80.

Really dialing in the bass is one area where it really helps to have nice EQ. It can be a lottery how any speaker interacts with a room, and IMO, simply setting crossovers and trim levels isn't enough control.
Many might take it lightly but one of the hardest challenge is to make sure the cross-over area b/w Subs and main has no nulls/peaks. I have spent a lot of time to make sure my mains integrate nicely with subs. I have been using Dirac for over a year and a big fan of it. It corrects each speaker individually (including EQ, distance, level) but doesn't do anything to make sure mains are integrated with subs nicely. This is where REW comes in handly. I had to tweak subs distance to make them work properly with mains.

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I think SherazNJ has the EQ covered with DL on 88A.
Yes Sir I sure do and its kinda fun too. :-)
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post #35103 of 35612 Old 06-27-2016, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post
Many might take it lightly but one of the hardest challenge is to make sure the cross-over area b/w Subs and main has no nulls/peaks. I have spent a lot of time to make sure my mains integrate nicely with subs. I have been using Dirac for over a year and a big fan of it. It corrects each speaker individually (including EQ, distance, level) but doesn't do anything to make sure mains are integrated with subs nicely. This is where REW comes in handly. I had to tweak subs distance to make them work properly with mains.


Yes Sir I sure do and its kinda fun too. :-)
Yes, in my case, I get a null at 70-80hz, unless I direct those frequencies to my subs in the 4 corners. This forces me to push the crossovers up to the 100hz range to get good results. Surprisingly, my subs handle that well and don't give me significant localization issues with the higher crossover. I've found that some subs, particularly ported ones, produce distortion harmonics that make them easy to localize without a crossover at 80hz or below. Another benefit of a higher crossover is that I can have matching crossover points for all speakers, and my surrounds have the same bass impact as my LCRs.

There have been some who complained about midbass in the older 212s. I couldn't say whether that was due to a weakness in the 212s, similar null problems, poorly executed crossover, or simply a need for EQ. Those complaints seem to be gone with the latest models. After setting the crossover to 100hz, I can't complain.

Some have said that the older 212s with the metal horns have a bit more sparkle than the current ones. Since you like treble, you might actually prefer that. With Dirac & 212s, you can shape the treble to suit your tastes, and without running intro trouble with boosting distortion. Those tweeters have exceptionally low distortion, even at 20khz. So, with Dirac, I suspect that this difference doesn't matter, since you dial it in how you like it.

One thing to watch out for, though, is that the Dirac curve editor had some issues for me with the 212s, until I figured out that by zooming into the right of the graph. After doing that, I could drag the right curtain out further and avoid a spike before the Nyquist.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f2...e-dirac-21747/

I also found that I preferred my A51 amp over my previous NC400 amps with the 212s. I found it was sweeter and less fatiguing, even with the same Dirac target curve. I suspect that has something to do with the 212s' revealing treble and the NC400's low switching frequency, but you know how controversial amp differences are. FWIW, nobody else has reported similar issues with amps, and this wasn't a double blind test.
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post #35104 of 35612 Old 06-27-2016, 09:43 AM
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Not surprised on the NC400. It is not known to have a very smooth (distortion/harmonics?) top end.
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post #35105 of 35612 Old 06-28-2016, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Not surprised on the NC400. It is not known to have a very smooth (distortion/harmonics?) top end.
I'd agree with that, despite the NC400 measuring well.
It was good with my previous Triad speakers, which had less high frequency extension.
I'm really happy with my A51 with the 212s.
The treble is so smooth and non-fatiguing, without sacrificing any detail.
Maybe the high bias helps?
With such efficient speakers, it probably stays in class A territory a lot of the time.
Also, the A51 has great SNR and no fans, and ample power.
You can hear a bit of noise from the 212s at 1" away, but nothing at a few feet away, even in my very quiet room.
Putting your ear 1" away is like looking down the barrel of a gun, when you think about it.

No idea if it's any better than typical amps, though, or if this was just a problem specific to the NC400.
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post #35106 of 35612 Old 06-28-2016, 07:00 AM
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I have 2 x n400 modules as well. Can't say I can hear a difference between them and the dsonic, my rotel 1095 or any of my pro amps on Amy of my speakers lol.
That I'm glad about, saves me from changing amps. Just buy something with power and I'm done.
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post #35107 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I have 2 x n400 modules as well. Can't say I can hear a difference between them and the dsonic, my rotel 1095 or any of my pro amps on Amy of my speakers lol.
That I'm glad about, saves me from changing amps. Just buy something with power and I'm done.
I wouldn't bet my life that there was a difference, since it was subtle, plus mind games, etc.
I was actually pretty surprised to hear the difference, and disappointed, since I had been excited about the NC400s I built.
I did actually measure some 1-2 db differences between the A51 and the NC400s before EQ (particularly around the crossover region, and in the overall FR tilt - NC400 was a bit brighter.)
After Dirac, those differences were no longer measurable, but I still found I enjoyed listening more on the A51 over the NC400s. Go figure. <shrug>

Before I got the 212s and NC400s, and I had some JC1s, I had a different experience.
The JC1s and A51 sounded slightly different, and measured about a 1 db difference in overall frequency tilt - A51 was a bit brighter.
After Audyssey (no Dirac back then), they measured the same, and I couldn't hear any difference, prompting me to sell the JC1s.
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post #35108 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 11:14 AM
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Today is a good day.
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post #35109 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 12:30 PM
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Today is a good day.
Wait a minute, those say 2" on them....Were you not using the 4593 1.4"? Might just be a brain fart on my part...
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post #35110 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 12:44 PM
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BMS uses the same boxes for the 2" and the 1.4". The labels say 1.4" and that they have the custom, full phase plug and copper shorting rings.
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post #35111 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 07:52 PM
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post #35112 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 07:57 PM
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Selling my pair of S2's: JTR Captivator S2 - Pair (2)
What's the replacement?
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post #35113 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 08:07 PM
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Selling my pair of S2's: JTR Captivator S2 - Pair (2)
Must be replaced with pair of JTR Captivator 4000 ULF
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post #35114 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 08:14 PM
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Must be replaced with pair of JTR Captivator 4000 ULF
That was what I was thinking.
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post #35115 of 35612 Old 06-29-2016, 11:36 PM
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Hey Everyone - been lurking this thread for quite some time, and read through many pages in this JTR thread - I'm quite the novice in audio and thanks for the good read. I'm looking to upgrade from a very mediocre system (Chase SHO-10's as L/C/R + sealed CS 18 subs; no surrounds) and looking to invest into what would be very close to my final audio system (in small pieces at a time) with JTR (always heard good things about them). I know the upgrade itch is very possible, but its my main goal for now.

I'm hoping to get your much appreciated feedback/recommendations.

Initially I was settled on possibly 212HTR's, but with all the rave reviews on the 215RT (better imaging and awesome 2-channel for music), I feel like I might be missing out. It is out of my budget, but I can definitely stretch and make some compromises. I prefer to spend one time and not have to replace the mains for quite a long while.

  • My preference: 70/30 (HT/Music)
  • Speakers will be going into a small spare media room: 13' x 10' (seems like it will be overkill)
  • This is an apartment (I know, its unfortunate), however, we plan to move into a House in 3-5 years. We have fairly thick walls, so I can turn it up decently compared to other apartments. Again I want to invest for the long term and end goal, and want to enjoy something partially now.
  • The Chase speaker system will go into the living-room as a small 2.1, however I can re-purpose some pieces like the sub (although may be lacking when matched up with the JTR's).
  • I may grow to enjoy 2 channel music much more (Carp's rave reviews drew me towards the 215RT).


Option 1:
  • 2 x 212HTR + 1 X 228 HTR


Option 2:
  • 2 x 215RT (stretching my budget a lot, so may have to go phantom center for awhile)
    *eventually when budget allows ideally will add 228HT/HTR, unless there is a better recommendation (not planning to go 3x 215RT). Maybe can pick one of these used in the future when someone else upgrades =).


- Going with Option 1 would mean the 212HTR would be my finals mains going forward. I would temporary use the sealed subs for now, and in the future add some JTR subs.

- Going with Option 2 may be overkill (in the current location), but despite the speaker size the bass might be good enough to hold me out for quite some time. I can temporarily use a SHO-10 as the Center, unless that would be severely lacking and best to go phantom.
- With either of these I would still be able to use sealed 18" subs if necessary



Thoughts? I guess its also a Full Range setup vs. 212HTR + Subs, as the better end setup.
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post #35116 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
Hey Everyone - been lurking this thread for quite some time, and read through many pages in this JTR thread - I'm quite the novice in audio and thanks for the good read. I'm looking to upgrade from a very mediocre system (Chase SHO-10's as L/C/R + sealed CS 18 subs; no surrounds) and looking to invest into what would be very close to my final audio system (in small pieces at a time) with JTR (always heard good things about them). I know the upgrade itch is very possible, but its my main goal for now.

I'm hoping to get your much appreciated feedback/recommendations.

Initially I was settled on possibly 212HTR's, but with all the rave reviews on the 215RT (better imaging and awesome 2-channel for music), I feel like I might be missing out. It is out of my budget, but I can definitely stretch and make some compromises. I prefer to spend one time and not have to replace the mains for quite a long while.

  • My preference: 70/30 (HT/Music)
  • Speakers will be going into a small spare media room: 13' x 10' (seems like it will be overkill)
  • This is an apartment (I know, its unfortunate), however, we plan to move into a House in 3-5 years. We have fairly thick walls, so I can turn it up decently compared to other apartments. Again I want to invest for the long term and end goal, and want to enjoy something partially now.
  • The Chase speaker system will go into the living-room as a small 2.1, however I can re-purpose some pieces like the sub (although may be lacking when matched up with the JTR's).
  • I may grow to enjoy 2 channel music much more (Carp's rave reviews drew me towards the 215RT).


Option 1:
  • 2 x 212HTR + 1 X 228 HTR


Option 2:
  • 2 x 215RT (stretching my budget a lot, so may have to go phantom center for awhile)
    *eventually when budget allows ideally will add 228HT/HTR, unless there is a better recommendation (not planning to go 3x 215RT). Maybe can pick one of these used in the future when someone else upgrades =).


- Going with Option 1 would mean the 212HTR would be my finals mains going forward. I would temporary use the sealed subs for now, and in the future add some JTR subs.

- Going with Option 2 may be overkill (in the current location), but despite the speaker size the bass might be good enough to hold me out for quite some time. I can temporarily use a SHO-10 as the Center, unless that would be severely lacking and best to go phantom.
- With either of these I would still be able to use sealed 18" subs if necessary



Thoughts? I guess its also a Full Range setup vs. 212HTR + Subs, as the better end setup.
If budget is a concern, keep the SHO10 and buy one or both of the S2 from blbeck...I'd take the opportunity to upgrade the subs since those are available immediately at a significant savings. Save your money for now on the LCR...the SHO10 are very capable for your space...you can wait for a while and then upgrade to the 212HTR later on. The 212HTR is already capable of overkill in your space and bigger rooms...and will likely be the last HT/Music speakers you need to upgrade...the imaging I get from my 212 seems 8'+ feet tall, including 2-channel listening...and the further you sit back, the better.

Last edited by asoofi1; 06-30-2016 at 01:01 PM.
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post #35117 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
If budget is a concern, keep the SHO10 and buy one or both of the S2 from blbeck...I'd take the opportunity to upgrade the subs since those are available immediately at a significant savings. Save your money for now on the LCR...the SHO10 are very capable for your space...you can wait for a while and then upgrade to the 212HTR later on. The 212HTR is already capable of overkill in your space and bigger rooms...and will likely be the last HT/Music speakers you need to upgrade...the imaging I get from my 212 seems 8'+ feet tall, including 2-channel listening...and the further you sit back, the better.
Thanks for feedback! Yea, normally I'd just consider keeping them, however, space has opened up in the livingroom for a small 2-Channel speaker setup (will be used a lot less than our designated room). I've planned to move the SHO10 there.

This leaves our media room needing speakers, and so wanted this opportunity to start gravity towards better mains that will hopefully also be used in a bigger space in about 3 years.
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post #35118 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
Hey Everyone - been lurking this thread for quite some time, and read through many pages in this JTR thread - I'm quite the novice in audio and thanks for the good read. I'm looking to upgrade from a very mediocre system (Chase SHO-10's as L/C/R + sealed CS 18 subs; no surrounds) and looking to invest into what would be very close to my final audio system (in small pieces at a time) with JTR (always heard good things about them). I know the upgrade itch is very possible, but its my main goal for now.

I'm hoping to get your much appreciated feedback/recommendations.

Initially I was settled on possibly 212HTR's, but with all the rave reviews on the 215RT (better imaging and awesome 2-channel for music), I feel like I might be missing out. It is out of my budget, but I can definitely stretch and make some compromises. I prefer to spend one time and not have to replace the mains for quite a long while.

  • My preference: 70/30 (HT/Music)
  • Speakers will be going into a small spare media room: 13' x 10' (seems like it will be overkill)
  • This is an apartment (I know, its unfortunate), however, we plan to move into a House in 3-5 years. We have fairly thick walls, so I can turn it up decently compared to other apartments. Again I want to invest for the long term and end goal, and want to enjoy something partially now.
  • The Chase speaker system will go into the living-room as a small 2.1, however I can re-purpose some pieces like the sub (although may be lacking when matched up with the JTR's).
  • I may grow to enjoy 2 channel music much more (Carp's rave reviews drew me towards the 215RT).


Option 1:
  • 2 x 212HTR + 1 X 228 HTR


Option 2:
  • 2 x 215RT (stretching my budget a lot, so may have to go phantom center for awhile)
    *eventually when budget allows ideally will add 228HT/HTR, unless there is a better recommendation (not planning to go 3x 215RT). Maybe can pick one of these used in the future when someone else upgrades =).


- Going with Option 1 would mean the 212HTR would be my finals mains going forward. I would temporary use the sealed subs for now, and in the future add some JTR subs.

- Going with Option 2 may be overkill (in the current location), but despite the speaker size the bass might be good enough to hold me out for quite some time. I can temporarily use a SHO-10 as the Center, unless that would be severely lacking and best to go phantom.
- With either of these I would still be able to use sealed 18" subs if necessary



Thoughts? I guess its also a Full Range setup vs. 212HTR + Subs, as the better end setup.
The 210RT's would be perfect for you.

I have had the 210RT's and currently have the 215RT's. There is no difference in music that I can tell. Now with the 215's you can watch a movie and not need subs or listen to bass type music, but for pop/rock/hip hop etc music they will sound the same. My 210RT's were good to 30hz in my good size room. There isn't much music that goes lower than that.
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post #35119 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 03:44 PM
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The 210RT's would be perfect for you.

I have had the 210RT's and currently have the 215RT's. There is no difference in music that I can tell. Now with the 215's you can watch a movie and not need subs or listen to bass type music, but for pop/rock/hip hop etc music they will sound the same. My 210RT's were good to 30hz in my good size room. There isn't much music that goes lower than that.
I will definitely take that into consideration and think it over too among all this.

What made you go from 210 to 215RT? Was something missing or lacking for you?
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post #35120 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
I will definitely take that into consideration and think it over too among all this.

What made you go from 210 to 215RT? Was something missing or lacking for you?
Curiosity got the better of me. Kept wondering what if.....
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post #35121 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 05:39 PM
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Curiosity got the better of me. Kept wondering what if.....
I skipped 3rd base and went straight for a home run with some 215RM's. Love them, use them at least 5 hours each day.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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Sony 940c 75" Display, Marantz AV8801, HTPC, JTR 215RM Mains & JTR 210RM Center, DIY Surrounds, Crown Xti & Cdi Amps, Seaton Submersive HP+ Master and Slave.
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Selling my JTR Triple 8 - LP's...

JTR Speakers for Sale (Triple 8LP)
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post #35123 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 08:31 PM
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I skipped 3rd base and went straight for a home run with some 215RM's. Love them, use them at least 5 hours each day.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
I don't regret getting the 215RT's - it's just that I would have been perfectly happy keeping the 210RT's (and would have more $$ in the bank).
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post #35124 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
I will definitely take that into consideration and think it over too among all this.

What made you go from 210 to 215RT? Was something missing or lacking for you?
To expand a bit - nothing was lacking with the 210RT's. I was completely happy with them. I am also completely happy with the 215RT's. For movies I cross over at 80hz and there is no difference. For music I ran them both full range and both sounded incredible. The 215RT's can be run full range for movies which i only do for concert blu Rays. The only real difference is with dub step/electronic/bass type music which I listen to infrequently.

I am unfortunately the type that has buyers remorse unless I buy the top of the line model. Curiosity got the best of me and I sold the 210RT's to buy the 215RT's. If i would have kept the 210RT's I would be just as happy.
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post #35125 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
To expand a bit - nothing was lacking with the 210RT's. I was completely happy with them. I am also completely happy with the 215RT's. For movies I cross over at 80hz and there is no difference. For music I ran them both full range and both sounded incredible. The 215RT's can be run full range for movies which i only do for concert blu Rays. The only real difference is with dub step/electronic/bass type music which I listen to infrequently.

I am unfortunately the type that has buyers remorse unless I buy the top of the line model. Curiosity got the best of me and I sold the 210RT's to buy the 215RT's. If i would have kept the 210RT's I would be just as happy.
Ok - maybe the 215RT may be out now. Assuming in the future I'll get 1 or 2 S2's. Which is the most ideal setup for 70/30 (HT/Music):

  • Option 1: 210RT + 210RM
  • Option 2: 212HTR + 228 HTR
  • Option 3: 212HTR x 3
    [Edited: sorry, meant to say 212HTR and not 215.]
Full range or 2.1? Going for most flexibility and best sound. Leaning towards #1 now, based on some reviews and your feedback. Thoughts anyone?

Last edited by Cerious; 07-01-2016 at 06:29 AM.
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post #35126 of 35612 Old 06-30-2016, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
Ok - maybe the 215RT may be out now. Assuming in the future I'll get 1 or 2 S2's. Which is the most ideal setup for 70/30 (HT/Music):

  • Option 1: 210RT + 210RM
  • Option 2: 215HTR + 228 HTR
  • Option 3: 215HTR x 3
Full range or 2.1? Going for most flexibility and best sound. Leaning towards #1 now, based on some reviews and your feedback. Thoughts anyone?
Option 2 will get you everything you want plus a lot more. Option 1 if you want to play lots of 2 channel music.

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post #35127 of 35612 Old 07-01-2016, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
Ok - maybe the 215RT may be out now. Assuming in the future I'll get 1 or 2 S2's. Which is the most ideal setup for 70/30 (HT/Music):

  • Option 1: 210RT + 210RM
  • Option 2: 215HTR + 228 HTR
  • Option 3: 215HTR x 3
Full range or 2.1? Going for most flexibility and best sound. Leaning towards #1 now, based on some reviews and your feedback. Thoughts anyone?
Option 4: 2x 215RT's + 1 215 RM (Center) (I have this option)

As I have heard both the 215 and 210, you would be very happy with option 1. I, like Raynist, just had to get the big dog because it was the big dog. I have no regrets, best of both worlds. Full range for 2 channel music and awesome for movies.
The 210's are very close and for most music can be considered full range.
Heck with the 210's even the movie bass will be pretty ok until you can get some subs.

I assume since you are entertaining option 1,3 you are going to have the center behind an AT screen?
I would plan on that my sound stage went from good to near perfect when I did that.

Last edited by theblackangus; 07-01-2016 at 05:08 AM. Reason: Cant Spell
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post #35128 of 35612 Old 07-01-2016, 05:10 AM
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I'm glad to hear everyone thinks the 210RTs sound very similar to the 215RTs for music.

I have the 215RMs my father loves them for 2 channel. He thinks I'm crazy to own something so big for my living room.

His 60th birthday is in November , I want to surprise him and buy him a pair or 210RTs.

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Last edited by Chriscorv58; 07-01-2016 at 05:22 AM.
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post #35129 of 35612 Old 07-01-2016, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Chriscorv58 View Post
I'm glad to hear everyone thinks the 210RTs sound very similar to the 215RTs for music.

I have the 215RMs my father loves them for 2 channel. He thinks I'm crazy to own something so big for my living room.

His 60th birthday is in November , I want to surprise him and buy him a pair or 210RTs.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
Wow! Nice!!
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post #35130 of 35612 Old 07-01-2016, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerious View Post
Ok - maybe the 215RT may be out now. Assuming in the future I'll get 1 or 2 S2's. Which is the most ideal setup for 70/30 (HT/Music):

  • Option 1: 210RT + 210RM
  • Option 2: 215HTR + 228 HTR
  • Option 3: 215HTR x 3
Full range or 2.1? Going for most flexibility and best sound. Leaning towards #1 now, based on some reviews and your feedback. Thoughts anyone?
If you are going with an AT screen, you should consider running 3 identical vertical speakers.
There is no 215HTR, so not sure what you mean by that.

For running with subs, here are some suggested setups (in no particular order):
1) 3x 212HTR (AT or non-AT screen)
2) 3x 210RM (AT or non-AT screen)
3) 3x 215RM (AT or non-AT screen)

If you want to run full range with music (some prefer subs with music, some prefer full range mains).
These setup can also work with subs. They are just capable of running without subs.
1) 3x 210RT (AT screen)
2) 2x 210RT + 1x 210RM (non-AT screen)
3) 3x 215RT (AT screen)
4) 2x 215RT + 1x 215RM (non-AT screen)

The choice of 215 vs 210 depends on space, budget, and crossover frequency.
The choice of 212HTR vs 215RM is less clear.
212 is more efficient but 215 is sealed.
Apples and oranges.
215 will need more power.
Sealed may be easier to integrate with subs at lower crossover frequencies.
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Last edited by rcohen; 07-01-2016 at 06:33 AM.
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