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post #35371 of 37239 Old 07-27-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
You can start reading at post 30507 although I'm not sure if that's the info you are looking for.
Thanks

I thought Jeff listed something more recently (within last 3-4 months). I don't remember it being that schematic but it may have been

I have a minidsp 10x10 that I am only using 2 channels on for my sub. I bought additional cables to run my LCR 215RT's through it to put the correct high pass on them. I am pretty sure I can use the software for the 10x10 to route the bass from the LFE channels into the 215's. I would only want to do this while listening to 2 channel music. Not sure how well that would work, especially if I ran Audyssey with my subs engaged but then playing the LFE through the 215's????
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post #35372 of 37239 Old 07-27-2016, 01:55 PM
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Now I remember why I never tried it. I only have a single sub out on my AVR.
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post #35373 of 37239 Old 07-27-2016, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Now I remember why I never tried it. I only have a single sub out on my AVR.
Couldn't you use a splitter?
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post #35374 of 37239 Old 07-27-2016, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Couldn't you use a splitter?
I guess I could, but then frequencies up to 120 would be mono and I assume that isn't ideal? Hmmm wait... it's the LFE signal so it's not a stereo signal anyway right? Yes I believe you are right. Hmmm something else fun to mess with!
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post #35375 of 37239 Old 07-27-2016, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
No "Y" adapted needed. I meant the the signal in that RCA is a combination of the mains and subs.
On the other hand...
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post #35376 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 08:47 AM
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Copying from other thread as other JTR owners may be interested:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
How do you like the minidsp 88bm in as much as how much difference did the Dirac live make in the SQ? Also, how much bass boost can you get with it? As much as the inuke's? i am looking at the nanoAVR-DL so it's all done digitally. I want to order something soon to boost the bass on everything (215RT mains/215RM/210RT surrounds).
210RTs for surround??! That is one hell of a set up you got going there! I have also been interested in getting a nanoAVR-DL. It seem like the 88a is much more popular but I intend to stick with running my RA CX-8 surrounds off my receiver, so I wouldn't be able to benefit from the Dirac room correction on my surrounds if I picked up the 88a... plus the nanoAVR-DL is cheaper to boot.


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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
My preference for implementation with three 215RT's is to use bass management to combine the redirected bass with the LFE from 120 Hz and below. Then recombine this signal with the respective L, C, R channels. This makes sure all the bass is in proper level to each other. It utilizes the three 215RT's as true subs in that all three are producing bass. A good example of when this is necessary is in the movie Edge of Tomorrow. The beginning deep bass is only in the center and LFE channel. By using bass management, one would usually route this to two or more subs. With the 215RT's one would be able to route the center bass to the other two speakers to have the advantages I listed above.

If I was implementing the system, I would use a MOTU Ultralite AVB with the Marantz. The MOTU has balanced input and outputs with the required routing, mixing, high pass filter, and EQ. You can also easily control the redirected bass level separately using a phone or tablet. I would leave Audyssey off.

In the Marantz I would set the LCR to small and use a 120 Hz crossover. In the MOTU you route the LCR and Sub to Aux 1-4. I renamed these Left Input, Right Input, Ctr Input and Subwoofer Input. I also renamed the Analog outs to Left Output, etc.

In the mixing tab you route Left Input to the Left Output, Right Input to the Right Output, and Ctr Input to the Ctr Input. You then route the Subwoofer Input to each of the outputs. The level of Aux 4/Subwoofer can be controlled by itself for proper level matching.
Thanks for this information desertdome. This sounds like the proper way to get LFE to the 215s.


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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Audyssey can't be relied upon for crossover, distance settings, and EQ. It just can't take all the factors into account that result in a good system calibration. Manual PEQ will nearly always be better. The exception is when I use Audiolense, but I still don't do any correction above around 500 Hz. You shouldn't have a handful to deal with. It only takes a few minutes to get the settings right for surrounds. The main issue is bass integration. If you check out the Rob Hahn theater build, which uses a Trinnov Altitude, you will see that even there Keith Yates utilized 12 Lake LM-44 DSP units to provide the proper PEQ for all channels.

If you wanted to, instead of the MOTU Ultralite AVB, you can use a MOTU 16a (16 inputs/outputs) and run all channels through it. This lets one do some additional EQ to speakers if necessary. I'm using a MOTU 1248 (8 analog inputs/12 analog outputs) with a Yamaha CX-A5100 for a theater I'm working on. I use two sets of snake cables from ProAudioLA for the connections.
I don't trust my ability to set a proper manual PEQ for each channel. So instead of a MOTU 16a, would a good option be to use a nanoAVR-DL in conjunction with the MOTU Ultralite AVB? I know some of the features and abilities would be redundant, but the way I see it, this is how it would work in summary:

First get the MOTU configured and set up properly.
1. The MOTU Ultralite AVB is getting the LFE channel and mixing it properly with the LFE under 120Hz of the LCR channels, which is then:
A) output to AUX 4 in your example- which for me would be 1 Cap S1
B) then mixed with the signal inputs from the LCR channels to output AUX 1, 2, 3, to the amplifier inputs for LCR so that LCR is outputting a proper mix of the individual channel and LFE, and thus helping to smooth out the bass response

Then integrate the nano-AVR-DL:
2. The nanoAVR-DL will optimize the overall sound after taking measurements with a UMIK-1 and generating correction filters.
-Follow up by tweaking and experimenting with different curves to come up with the in-room response I like.

From reading up on the MiniDSP website, the nano-AVR DL does not have the bass management capabilities (specifically the re-routing of the LFE/Mixing with LCR etc.) you describe on the Moto unit, hence the need for both. Obviously I'd love to save some $$ and only get one additional device instead of two.. @desertdome , @carp am I missing something here, or do I "need" both devices to get the Routing/mixing capabilities from the Motu and the "easier to use" Dirac Room Correction abilities from the nanoavr dl?

As background, I am running 2014 JTR 215RT for L/R and 215RM for C, RA CX-8 x 4 for surrounds, a single 2014? Cap S1, 2 Crowson Transducers in a 24x17x8 non-dedicated room. Using a Denon 4311 ci and Crowson XTI 2002 for L/R and DSI 4000 for center. (One of the channels on the DSI is bad so I am likely getting another XTI 2002 to replace it.) I have a minidsp 2x4, Umik, and REW to play with as well.

Since I had multiple submersives spread out before and have very recently "cut down" to one S1, I am trying to make up for it by having the bass from the 215s contribute to smoothing out the low end response and adding to the "fun" for movies..

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post #35377 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 10:14 AM
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post #35378 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Now I remember why I never tried it. I only have a single sub out on my AVR.
Using another device (other than internal avr) to route LFE to your Noesis 215RT gives you the ability to adjust the LFE output using the LFE level control in the avr. The Noesis 215RT does have as much output capability as a 1400.
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post #35379 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Using another device to route LFE to your Noesis 215RT gives you the ability to adjust the LFE output using the LFE level control in the avr. The Noesis 215RT does have as much output capability as a 1400.
@carp , to put that into perspective, it takes 11 of your Stereo Integrity HT18 sealed subs to have as much output at 16-20 Hz as three 215RT's.

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post #35380 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
@carp , to put that into perspective, it takes 11 of your Stereo Integrity HT18 sealed subs to have as much output at 16-20 Hz as three 215RT's.
😳😳😳

Wow - that is really crazy to think about!

Can't wait to see one tested on data-bass
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post #35381 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Using another device to route LFE to your Noesis 215RT gives you the ability to adjust the LFE output using the LFE level control in the avr. The Noesis 215RT does have as much output capability as a 1400.
@Jeff Permanian , what "other device" do you recommend to do this? Any alternative, preferred methods to the Motu device desertdome is suggesting?

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post #35382 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
@carp , to put that into perspective, it takes 11 of your Stereo Integrity HT18 sealed subs to have as much output at 16-20 Hz as three 215RT's.

Yeah, I've looked at that before. basically a 12 db difference between them at those frequencies comparing 1 to 1, so roughly 4 sealed SI 18's = 1 215 between 16 and 20hz.

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post #35383 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Yeah, I've looked at that before. basically a 12 db difference between them at those frequencies comparing 1 to 1, so roughly 4 sealed SI 18's = 1 215 between 16 and 20hz.

I am shocked by this. So my 3 215's have more output between 16-20hz than my 4 S2's!!!!!
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post #35384 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 02:28 PM
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The 215RT's are such a huge bargain. Buy one speaker, get a $1900 subwoofer for "free."
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post #35385 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I am shocked by this. So my 3 215's have more output between 16-20hz than my 4 S2's!!!!!
JTR S2's are not in the same class as Stereo Integrity HT18's. With that said, even a sealed dual opposed 21" IPAL subwoofer has less output than a single Cap 1400/215RT from 16-20 Hz. However, four S2's should be close to three 215RT's. It is below 16 Hz that the S2's will have lots more output.

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post #35386 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
JTR S2's are not in the same class as Stereo Integrity HT18's. With that said, even a sealed dual opposed 21" IPAL subwoofer has less output than a single Cap 1400/215RT from 16-20 Hz. However, four S2's should be close to three 215RT's. It is below 16 Hz that the S2's will have lots more output.
Are you saying they are not in the same class as they are more or less powerful than the SI18's?
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post #35387 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 05:40 PM
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Are you saying they are not in the same class as they are more or less powerful than the SI18's?
The HT18 is rated at 23mm Xmax vs the S2's 33mm xmax. The Captivator S1 actually has very similar output as Data-Bass's HST-18 in the dyi sealed cabinet despite the S1's smaller cabinet and only 2400 watts (vs 10,000w).
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post #35388 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The HT18 is rated at 23mm Xmax vs the S2's 33mm xmax. The Captivator S1 has very similar output as Data-Bass's HST-18 in the dyi sealed cabinet despite the S1's smaller cabinet and only 2400 watts (vs 10,000w).
Thanks Jeff.

I am thinking he was saying the S1/S2's were more powerful but just wanted to check.

Are the 215RT's still going to be tested at DB?
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post #35389 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 06:03 PM
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Are the 215RT's still going to be tested at DB?
Josh may or may not have one or had one
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post #35390 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 06:09 PM
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Josh may or may not have one or had one
I can't wait to see this one!!!
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post #35391 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 08:41 PM
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What units are you guys thinking of using to route the LFE to the 215's? I've always wanted to try it but would have to buy something I'm pretty sure... lol

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post #35392 of 37239 Old 07-28-2016, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Could you try it out on the cheap with a couple of these?

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...6x%3D0%26y%3D0

Following this diagram:


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...2&d=1438795499
Problem with this is that they are ALWAYS out of stock. I have followed these for months at a time in the past year.


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post #35393 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 06:46 AM
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@carp - have you tried routing LFE into your 215rt's using your 88BM?
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post #35394 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
Problem with this is that they are ALWAYS out of stock. I have followed these for months at a time in the past year.
a passive stereo to mono summing box is just a few resistors -> http://www.rane.com/note109.html
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post #35395 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 07:38 AM
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What units are you guys thinking of using to route the LFE to the 215's? I've always wanted to try it but would have to buy something I'm pretty sure... lol
The MOTU AVB units allow this to be done. Here is what I posted in another thread.

First, using the 215RT's as subs is a great idea on paper. Proper implementation is much more difficult. There are several reasons why it is a great idea. First, unless your room is very narrow you can place the speakers at the 1/4 and 1/2 points in the room to cancel room modes. It takes at least 2-3 subwoofers to do this. Second, because of the locations of the woofers, one cancels most of the height modes, too. Third, depending on placement, from around 60 Hz and down the wavelengths will mutually couple. When you send the LFE to 3 coherent sources, the 3 sources combine for a gain of 9.5 dB. Fourth, bass output with the three 215RT's is ridiculous. If given enough power, they should have as much output as about 5-6 SVS PB-13's. To compare the 215RT's to almost any other fullrange main is futile.

My preference for implementation with three 215RT's is to use bass management to combine the redirected bass with the LFE from 120 Hz and below. Then recombine this signal with the respective L, C, R channels. This makes sure all the bass is in proper level to each other. It utilizes the three 215RT's as true subs in that all three are producing bass. A good example of when this is necessary is in the movie Edge of Tomorrow. The beginning deep bass is only in the center and LFE channel. By using bass management, one would usually route this to two or more subs. With the 215RT's one would be able to route the center bass to the other two speakers to have the advantages I listed above.

If I was implementing the system, I would use a MOTU Ultralite AVB with the pre/pro. The MOTU has balanced input and outputs with the required routing, mixing, high pass filter, and EQ. You can also easily control the redirected bass level separately using a phone or tablet. I would leave Audyssey off.

In the pre/pro I would set the LCR to small and use a 120 Hz crossover. In the MOTU you route the LCR and Sub to Aux 1-4. I renamed these Left Input, Right Input, Ctr Input and Subwoofer Input. I also renamed the Analog outs to Left Output, etc.



In the mixing tab you route Left Input to the Left Output, Right Input to the Right Output, and Ctr Input to the Ctr Input. You then route the Subwoofer Input to each of the outputs. The level of Aux 4/Subwoofer can be controlled by itself for proper level matching.



You also need to add a High Pass Filter at 20 Hz and a Shelf Filter on the inputs at 20 Hz and 6 dB. This will extend the High Pass Filter to around 15-16 Hz. Here you can see with and without the Shelf Filter.



Finally, one can add identical PEQ to the Left, Right, and Ctr Outputs to pull down any peaks.





To boost the bass, it is best done with a smooth transition to the rest of the frequency range. I would use a high shelf filter with a negative gain on the Sub input. This preserves headroom to prevent digital clipping while still shapes the signal the same way. You can see below that a high shelf with negative gain is identical in shape to a low shelf with positive gain. If you set the frequency at 45 Hz, the transition there is a smooth transition to the higher frequencies around 120 Hz. Again, this can all be done on the fly with a phone/tablet for preference.


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post #35396 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 08:02 AM
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@desertdome , any advice on my post above regarding combining your suggested Motu implementation with a nanoavr-DL?

Thanks

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post #35397 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
@carp - have you tried routing LFE into your 215rt's using your 88BM?

I haven't. I bet it could be done though. I hate to even ask in the 88A thread because the experts in there how it's done will crucify you if you even hint that you would want to run your mains large... much less send the LFE channel to them!!
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post #35398 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
Problem with this is that they are ALWAYS out of stock. I have followed these for months at a time in the past year.
I have seen them on other sites that I believe were in the UK. Could look there but would take a long to receive them being shipping form a UK store, not to mention the cost, but an option.

I am intrigued by the talk of these the last few days or the routing the LFE and would love to dig into this and may at some point, but I am pretty happy with what I am achieving by crossing them with subs for movies. IMO I am getting all the benefits of 212HT's or HTR's as they are now, but with the added mid bass the 215RT's give and also the use my sealed subs. It is a massive front sound stage. I don't listen all that loud as I have said my room is tiny compared to most of you guys and it just fills up quick with sound. I know it is a rookie mistake, but I noticed my subs were lacking and was trouble shooting to see what was holding them back and finally figured out that I had them set to LFE+mains. Unchecked that and man the subs came to life quick. Cut them back a whole bunch. Problem solved. Actually sounds much better as I A&B'd for a bit and prefered that the subs just handled the LFE. Be curious to play with that some more with some DSP work.

Just watched a trailer for a movie coming in November that looks really good. I am not really a fan of Andrew Garfield and curious how he will do in this role. Again looks really good. Thought I would share.


Last edited by Reefdvr27; 07-29-2016 at 09:17 AM.
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post #35399 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 09:07 AM
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That looks good
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post #35400 of 37239 Old 07-29-2016, 10:11 AM
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Will an AVR route the LFE to the mains and the center channel when adjusted for no subwoofers? If so then you could just use the AVR's tone control too boost the bass. The Emotiva XMC-1's tone control allows users to even adjust the frequency it operates at. Something like the NanoAVR will route LFE to any of the front channels and allow users to set a highpass.
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