Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1181 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35401 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
Problem with this is that they are ALWAYS out of stock. I have followed these for months at a time in the past year.
I have seen them on other sites that I believe were in the UK. Could look there but would take a long to receive them being shipping form a UK store, not to mention the cost, but an option.

I am intrigued by the talk of these the last few days or the routing the LFE and would love to dig into this and may at some point, but I am pretty happy with what I am achieving by crossing them with subs for movies. IMO I am getting all the benefits of 212HT's or HTR's as they are now, but with the added mid bass the 215RT's give and also the use my sealed subs. It is a massive front sound stage. I don't listen all that loud as I have said my room is tiny compared to most of you guys and it just fills up quick with sound. I know it is a rookie mistake, but I noticed my subs were lacking and was trouble shooting to see what was holding them back and finally figured out that I had them set to LFE+mains. Unchecked that and man the subs came to life quick. Cut them back a whole bunch. Problem solved. Actually sounds much better as I A&B'd for a bit and prefered that the subs just handled the LFE. Be curious to play with that some more with some DSP work.

Just watched a trailer for a movie coming in November that looks really good. I am not really a fan of Andrew Garfield and curious how he will do in this role. Again looks really good. Thought I would share.


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post #35402 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM
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That looks good
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post #35403 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 10:11 AM
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Will an AVR route the LFE to the mains and the center channel when adjusted for no subwoofers? If so then you could just use the AVR's tone control too boost the bass. The Emotiva XMC-1's tone control allows users to even adjust the frequency it operates at. Something like the NanoAVR will route LFE to any of the front channels and allow users to set a highpass.
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post #35404 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 10:29 AM
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This stuff confuses me to no end. I know my system has more potential but the idiot in me prevails. Plug and play is all I've got!!
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post #35405 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Will an AVR route the LFE to the mains and the center channel when adjusted for no subwoofers? If so then you could just use the AVR's tone control too boost the bass. The Emotiva XMC-1's tone control allows users to even adjust the frequency it operates at.
On my Denon 4311ci, I tried doing this but from my testing it did not appear to be really getting LFE.

I tested with the opening scene of the light cycle- grid scene in TRON, using two different sets of settings:
1. LCR all set to Large, Subwoofers set to no subs. On the 215RTS, I set a +6db low shelf filter at 20Hz on the crown amps to help boost the low end
2. Subwoofers set to 1 sub, running a Captivator S1

The part where the cycle is first deployed and it hits the ground- you can hear and feel the impact with the S1 in play. With LCR set to large, no subs that impact is definitely missing. This leads me to believe the receiver isn't really re-routing LFE.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Something like the NanoAVR will route LFE to any of the front channels and allow users to set a highpass.
So looking at MiniDSP's website nanoavr-HD has bass management capabilities but the nanoavr-DL DOES NOT. So in order to route LFE AND provide the dirac room correction, It appears I would need both a nanoAVR-HD or Motu combined with a nano-AVR DL... or alternatively, a DDRC-88A along with the DDRC-88BM plugin which allows for bass management

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post #35406 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryansboston View Post
On my Denon 4311ci, I tried doing this but from my testing it did not appear to be really getting LFE.

I tested with the opening scene of the light cycle- grid scene in TRON, using two different sets of settings:
1. LCR all set to Large, Subwoofers set to no subs. On the 215RTS, I set a +6db low shelf filter at 20Hz on the crown amps to help boost the low end
2. Subwoofers set to 1 sub, running a Captivator S1

The part where the cycle is first deployed and it hits the ground- you can hear and feel the impact with the S1 in play. With LCR set to large, no subs that impact is definitely missing. This leads me to believe the receiver isn't really re-routing LFE.

So looking at MiniDSP's website nanoavr-HD has bass management capabilities but the nanoavr-DL DOES NOT. So in order to route LFE AND provide the dirac room correction, It appears I would need both a nanoAVR-HD or Motu combined with a nano-AVR DL...
The test people had been doing is use a 5.1 test disc, play the lfe track and listen if it is coming out of the mains. Have you had a chance to measure your in room response? Have you tried boosting 80hz and below?
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post #35407 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I haven't. I bet it could be done though. I hate to even ask in the 88A thread because the experts in there how it's done will crucify you if you even hint that you would want to run your mains large... much less send the LFE channel to them!!
Carp if you already have the 88a and 88BM plugin it looks like you should be able to route the LFE: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88bm


...so now go try it out quick and report back before I pull the trigger on this stuff! haha

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post #35408 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 11:44 AM
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Speakers set to large and subwoofers off and LFE is sent to the mains on my 4520 and X7200WA. Only problem is that I think when Audyssey is on you cannot use the tone tone controls, only when Audy is off. I may be wrong though.

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post #35409 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Speakers set to large and subwoofers off and LFE is sent to the mains on my 4520 and X7200WA. Only problem is that I think when Audyssey is on you cannot use the tone tone controls, only when Audy is off. I may be wrong though.
I just tried this with my Onkyo SC 5509 pre pro using the onmi mic DVD disc. I set my LCR 215RT's to full range and turned off the subs and played the tracks. The LFE came out of the left and right mains but not the center. Kind of disappointing that the LFE isn't routed to the center also, although I could easily do it using my mini DSP 10x10. I may try it this weekend.
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post #35410 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryansboston View Post
Carp if you already have the 88a and 88BM plugin it looks like you should be able to route the LFE: https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88bm


...so now go try it out quick and report back before I pull the trigger on this stuff! haha

I would but I'm finding it hard to leave the porch today. Nicest July day in a long time!







That and I'm recovering from Lasik. Eyes get sore, so they are shut most of the time.
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post #35411 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I would but I'm finding it hard to leave the porch today. Nicest July day in a long time!







That and I'm recovering from Lasik. Eyes get sore, so they are shut most of the time.
No JTR's on the deck?

I best some S8's would work nice there
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post #35412 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 01:49 PM
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No JTR's on the deck?

I best some S8's would work nice there

Ha, I've got some 30 dollar (per pair...) best buy specials. I think I'd be paranoid if I had something expensive out here that they might get stolen. The TV would be a lot harder to remove.

Still... yeah... some nice speakers out here would be great. We did some speaker comparisons out here at a GTG at the sound quality is very nice.
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post #35413 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryansboston View Post
On my Denon 4311ci, I tried doing this but from my testing it did not appear to be really getting LFE.

I tested with the opening scene of the light cycle- grid scene in TRON, using two different sets of settings:
1. LCR all set to Large, Subwoofers set to no subs. On the 215RTS, I set a +6db low shelf filter at 20Hz on the crown amps to help boost the low end
2. Subwoofers set to 1 sub, running a Captivator S1

The part where the cycle is first deployed and it hits the ground- you can hear and feel the impact with the S1 in play. With LCR set to large, no subs that impact is definitely missing. This leads me to believe the receiver isn't really re-routing LFE.



So looking at MiniDSP's website nanoavr-HD has bass management capabilities but the nanoavr-DL DOES NOT. So in order to route LFE AND provide the dirac room correction, It appears I would need both a nanoAVR-HD or Motu combined with a nano-AVR DL... or alternatively, a DDRC-88A along with the DDRC-88BM plugin which allows for bass management

Ryan, I can guarantee you have your S1 boosted compared to the mains, that's why. If you calibrate the S1 flat with the mains that would be a better comparison but still it would be very room dependent on which would sound better and give more impact.
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post #35414 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Ha, I've got some 30 dollar (per pair...) best buy specials. I think I'd be paranoid if I had something expensive out here that they might get stolen. The TV would be a lot harder to remove.

Still... yeah... some nice speakers out here would be great. We did some speaker comparisons out here at a GTG at the sound quality is very nice.
I bought a pair of Yamaha outdoor speakers for $250ish 8 years ago, still work great through all the heat, cold and rain. Would take 2 seconds to steal. They are pretty hidden though.
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post #35415 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I would but I'm finding it hard to leave the porch today. Nicest July day in a long time!







That and I'm recovering from Lasik. Eyes get sore, so they are shut most of the time.
I would think that Orion on the 215's would provide a nice soothing eye message.
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I would think that Orion on the 215's would provide a nice soothing eye message.


Made it down to the basement. Listening to the newest Maiden album. Something has never sounded right with the production on the album to me. Sounds dead. Not as bad as Dance of Death, but still not so great. Too bad...
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I can only listen to it in the car, like a lot of my CD's. If they sound good in the car they usuallysound poor in the house.

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Ha, yeah, my car has decent factory infinity speakers but everything sounds the same. You can't tell good production from bad. I guess that's a good thing too though..
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post #35419 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 03:50 PM
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I put JL Audio speakers in my car, I drive 135 mi/day to and from work. With the terrible DC drivers I need something to keep meverything from going batcrap crazy.

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post #35420 of 35427 Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I would but I'm finding it hard to leave the porch today. Nicest July day in a long time!







That and I'm recovering from Lasik. Eyes get sore, so they are shut most of the time.
September will be a year since I had my Lasik. So glad I had it done. Just wish I had done it sooner. I was home from the clinic by 3pm Friday and up and at work 5am Saturday with 20/20 vision
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I would but I'm finding it hard to leave the porch today. Nicest July day in a long time!







That and I'm recovering from Lasik. Eyes get sore, so they are shut most of the time.
Nice deck you got out there carp. Maybe a couple of Noesis 2AX and Growlers would be nice to play around with out there. Or 3TX and OS Pro's to wake up the block. Then when your done, just unhook and roll them back in the house. Them JTR pro lines have casters you know..
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post #35422 of 35427 Old Today, 08:04 AM
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September will be a year since I had my Lasik. So glad I had it done. Just wish I had done it sooner. I was home from the clinic by 3pm Friday and up and at work 5am Saturday with 20/20 vision
I had the follow up appt. yesterday and am also 20/20. Man... my left eye is crazy sore though. The right eye feels like nothing happened. They told me that's normal but I was hoping it would feel better by today.
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post #35423 of 35427 Old Today, 08:05 AM
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Nice deck you got out there carp. Maybe a couple of Noesis 2AX and Growlers would be nice to play around with out there. Or 3TX and OS Pro's to wake up the block. Then when your done, just unhook and roll them back in the house. Them JTR pro lines have casters you know..
Thanks! Or permanently attach them to the house somehow!
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post #35424 of 35427 Old Today, 12:02 PM
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JTR 215RT's/Bass management

Just posted this in another thread:

Today, 11:57 AM rjh65@verizon.ne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome
First, using the 215RT's as subs is a great idea on paper. Proper implementation is much more difficult. There are several reasons why it is a great idea. First, unless your room is very narrow you can place the speakers at the 1/4 and 1/2 points in the room to cancel room modes. It takes at least 2-3 subwoofers to do this. Second, because of the locations of the woofers, one cancels most of the height modes, too. Third, depending on placement, from around 60 Hz and down the wavelengths will mutually couple. When you send the LFE to 3 coherent sources, the 3 sources combine for a gain of 9.5 dB. Fourth, bass output with the three 215RT's is ridiculous. If given enough power, they should have as much output as about 5-6 SVS PB-13's. To compare the 215RT's to almost any other fullrange main is futile.

My preference for implementation with three 215RT's is to use bass management to combine the redirected bass with the LFE from 120 Hz and below. Then recombine this signal with the respective L, C, R channels. This makes sure all the bass is in proper level to each other. It utilizes the three 215RT's as true subs in that all three are producing bass. A good example of when this is necessary is in the movie Edge of Tomorrow. The beginning deep bass is only in the center and LFE channel. By using bass management, one would usually route this to two or more subs. With the 215RT's one would be able to route the center bass to the other two speakers to have the advantages I listed above.

Note that the Whirlwind IMCOML attenuates the signal by 3.8 dB.

If I was implementing the system, I would use a MOTU Ultralite AVB with the Marantz. The MOTU has balanced input and outputs with the required routing, mixing, high pass filter, and EQ. You can also easily control the redirected bass level separately using a phone or tablet. I would leave Audyssey off.

In the Marantz I would set the LCR to small and use a 120 Hz crossover. In the MOTU you route the LCR and Sub to Aux 1-4. I renamed these Left Input, Right Input, Ctr Input and Subwoofer Input. I also renamed the Analog outs to Left Output, etc.



In the mixing tab you route Left Input to the Left Output, Right Input to the Right Output, and Ctr Input to the Ctr Input. You then route the Subwoofer Input to each of the outputs. The level of Aux 4/Subwoofer can be controlled by itself for proper level matching.



You also need to add a High Pass Filter at 20 Hz and a Shelf Filter on the inputs at 20 Hz and 6 dB. This will extend the High Pass Filter to around 15-16 Hz. Here you can see with and without the Shelf Filter.



Finally, one can add identical PEQ to the Left, Right, and Ctr Outputs to pull down any peaks.





To boost the bass, it is best done with a smooth transition to the rest of the frequency range. I would use a high shelf filter with a negative gain on the Sub input. This preserves headroom to prevent digital clipping while still shapes the signal the same way. You can see below that a high shelf with negative gain is identical in shape to a low shelf with positive gain. If you set the frequency at 45 Hz, the transition there is a smooth transition to the higher frequencies around 120 Hz. Again, this can all be done on the fly with a phone/tablet for preference.



This is great but before implementing use of the Motu what do you use to measure the room acoustically so you know what to implement in the Motu? I called Motu direct and spoke to a tech guy who was supposed to email me a bunch of info as I am more of a plug n play kind of guy so I was asking if how steep the learning curve is with this product before I purchase but nothing yet. Do you, or would you use REW to measure your room and then apply that in the Motu?


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I had the follow up appt. yesterday and am also 20/20. Man... my left eye is crazy sore though. The right eye feels like nothing happened. They told me that's normal but I was hoping it would feel better by today.
I was surprised how fast and easy the whole procedure was. I had some dryness but I kept up with those artificial tears and that faded pretty quick. I have my final 1 year follow-up in september. I didnt have any soreness that I remember. I got a ride home from the surgery, took 2 MotrinPM and went to bed till the next morning when I got up and went straight to work.
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post #35426 of 35427 Old Today, 03:18 PM
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I would but I'm finding it hard to leave the porch today. Nicest July day in a long time!







That and I'm recovering from Lasik. Eyes get sore, so they are shut most of the time.
I have been on that porch, It is a very nice porch, my wife would love that porch. We are planing on doing a sunroom next to my theater room. I will keep your porch in mind when we design it.



Also wanted to find out from the fellas, I need an amp. I need a 3 channel that will drive my 215RT's and 215RM center. I don't need allot of power. I am running an Emotiva XPA-3 now and it does fine. I plan on moving that amp to the living room for the new Salk's, so that leaves me looking for an amp for the JTR's. Thought about just getting another Emotiva or a 3 channel Dsonic. The Dsonic is a bit more than I want to spend, but not out the question. Not sure if Crown makes a 3 channel or not, would rather not do two amps, but not out of the question. Budget would be $1K to $1.5K

Thanks Reef.

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post #35427 of 35427 Old Today, 04:53 PM
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Dave, I think screened porches or sun rooms are the way to go. My kids and wife attract every mosquito in the city but we wanted to be able to hang out "out side" so this is a great compromise. My sister was over yesterday and said it felt like being on vacation without leaving the house. I wish we had great weather for it year round though, that's the downside. However I think that makes it that much better on days you can use it.

As far as an amp I'll be curious what people say. Currently I don't need a 3 channel amp since the center 212 can be powered by a watch battery, but some day maybe I'll have a matching front 3. If that happens though, I may end up just keeping my Crown amp (love it) and getting a mono amp for the center.
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