Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1189 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35641 of 35669 Old 08-22-2016, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Well, that's very specific to the room. I get much more output from 4 corner placement, similar to the Harman paper. 4 subs gives you the option to stack in 2 groups, or you can use 4 corner placement. Assuming that 1xS2 = 2xS1(stacked), then 4xS1 >= 2xS2, depending on room and placement, but 4xS1 shouldn't be less than 2xS2, with the same placement.

That said, 2xS2 is also a good choice.
Hmm, so I can fit a couple of subs up the front behind the false wall, and I could definitely get one more behind seats at back of room, potentially 2. I think I might start with 2xS1's and see how they go, with the ability to upgrade to 3 or 4 down the track if the need arises (so to speak )
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post #35642 of 35669 Old 08-22-2016, 11:58 PM
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If your on concrete, I'd go dual 4000 ULF, which is pretty much a Orbit Shifter/S2 hybrid. Corner load those bastards, and be done once and for all.. Really...
Suspended floor for me thankfully!!
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post #35643 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 05:04 AM
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Suspended floor for me thankfully!!
Ah nice! All the fun factors of being on a suspended floor.. Definately go sealed. Dual S2 if you can fit those.
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post #35644 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott27 View Post
Hmm, so I can fit a couple of subs up the front behind the false wall, and I could definitely get one more behind seats at back of room, potentially 2. I think I might start with 2xS1's and see how they go, with the ability to upgrade to 3 or 4 down the track if the need arises (so to speak )
If it's a closed rectangular room, the free REW Room Simulator can give a pretty good estimate of frequency response with different quantities and sub&listener locations. Check the time alignment box. If you plan to use EQ, the main goal is to minimize nulls in the listening area. Without EQ, the goal is for the flattest natural frequency response in the listening area.

Here are a few layouts that I have found work best for minimizing nulls):
1) 4 subs in the corners (most output, good seat to seat consistency)
2) 4 subs on 1/4 3/4 positions on the front and back walls (best natural response, less output, good seat to seat consistency)
3) 2 subs wall centers on opposite sides of the room's longer axis (best natural response, less output, good seat to seat consistency)
4) 2 subs in opposite corners (more output than #3 , can EQ for good sound in 1 set, poor seat to seat consistency)
5) 1 nearfield sub (less predictable, but best way to get good results with 1 sub)

3 subs can be tricky, since you can't place them symmetrically. If you are against the back wall, it might work to have 1 behind you and 2 in front, since you would need less output so close. It's hard to get good frequency response when you sit close to a wall, though.

In general, I've gotten best results with #1 and #3 .
With 4 subs, you also have the option of placing them in pairs for the same results as #3 .
I got better results with #1 , but YMMV.

If you need room for the center speaker, one good option is to place 2xS1s on either side of the center speaker, and 1xS2 in back, for what is effectively layout #3. You can experiment with this kind of stuff in REW.
You can also place speakers on top of subs, if that gives you the right height.

For the S1s and S2s, overall, I'd suggest one of these, depending on placement practicalities:
1) 4xS1s in corners.
2) 2xS2s on the center walls of the long axis.

You can also do 2xS1 on the center walls of the long axis, although with less output. That might be enough, depending on your requirements.

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post #35645 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 07:41 AM
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Hmm, so I can fit a couple of subs up the front behind the false wall, and I could definitely get one more behind seats at back of room, potentially 2. I think I might start with 2xS1's and see how they go, with the ability to upgrade to 3 or 4 down the track if the need arises (so to speak )
I think that is a well reasoned choice. I have had 4 subs in the room distributed in the 4 room corners and other variations of quad sub placement and frankly there were several locations that worked well bass wise. I have also had dual subs up front behind the screen with excellent results.

This is all room/LP dependent and the math is quite complex (for me ) so trial and error by listening and measuring was my methodology. I am running the JTR full range 215RT's and so the six 15"'s are up front behind an AT screen and it sounds perfect ... to me.
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post #35646 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 02:04 PM
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I think that is a well reasoned choice. I have had 4 subs in the room distributed in the 4 room corners and other variations of quad sub placement and frankly there were several locations that worked well bass wise. I have also had dual subs up front behind the screen with excellent results.

This is all room/LP dependent and the math is quite complex (for me ) so trial and error by listening and measuring was my methodology. I am running the JTR full range 215RT's and so the six 15"'s are up front behind an AT screen and it sounds perfect ... to me.
Wow! I would love to hear a set up like that one day!!
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post #35647 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
If it's a closed rectangular room, the free REW Room Simulator can give a pretty good estimate of frequency response with different quantities and sub&listener locations. Check the time alignment box. If you plan to use EQ, the main goal is to minimize nulls in the listening area. Without EQ, the goal is for the flattest natural frequency response in the listening area.

Here are a few layouts that I have found work best for minimizing nulls):
1) 4 subs in the corners (most output, good seat to seat consistency)
2) 4 subs on 1/4 3/4 positions on the front and back walls (best natural response, less output, good seat to seat consistency)
3) 2 subs wall centers on opposite sides of the room's longer axis (best natural response, less output, good seat to seat consistency)
4) 2 subs in opposite corners (more output than #3 , can EQ for good sound in 1 set, poor seat to seat consistency)
5) 1 nearfield sub (less predictable, but best way to get good results with 1 sub)

3 subs can be tricky, since you can't place them symmetrically. If you are against the back wall, it might work to have 1 behind you and 2 in front, since you would need less output so close. It's hard to get good frequency response when you sit close to a wall, though.

In general, I've gotten best results with #1 and #3 .
With 4 subs, you also have the option of placing them in pairs for the same results as #3 .
I got better results with #1 , but YMMV.


If you need room for the center speaker, one good option is to place 2xS1s on either side of the center speaker, and 1xS2 in back, for what is effectively layout #3. You can experiment with this kind of stuff in REW.
You can also place speakers on top of subs, if that gives you the right height.

For the S1s and S2s, overall, I'd suggest one of these, depending on placement practicalities:
1) 4xS1s in corners.
2) 2xS2s on the center walls of the long axis.

You can also do 2xS1 on the center walls of the long axis, although with less output. That might be enough, depending on your requirements.

Thanks rcohen, thats very helpful. I have a window in the centre of the back wall unfortunately, so corner placement is likely to be the way to go for me. It sounds like starting with 2xS1's and then going to 4 if needed. Will check out REW simulation, I havent played around too much with that part of REW yet.
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post #35648 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 02:24 PM
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Thanks rcohen, thats very helpful. I have a window in the centre of the back wall unfortunately, so corner placement is likely to be the way to go for me. It sounds like starting with 2xS1's and then going to 4 if needed. Will check out REW simulation, I havent played around too much with that part of REW yet.
Sounds like a good plan. Hopefully that window won't rattle. With 2 subs and the center wall off limits, make sure to try opposite corner placement. It's hard to predict what will work well in your room, but opposite walls worked well in my room, so I can at least say give that a try. For me, that gave good output, peaks that could be fixed with EQs, an minimal null problems. It gave less seat to seat consistency, but I'm the only one who really notices.

Later, I ended up going with 4 subs. That was a much smaller difference than going from 1 to 2. A bit more output, but the primary gain was better seat to seat consistency for the opposite corner placement. Front/back center wall gave good seat to seat consistency with 2 subs, but the output was MUCH lower than corner placement, so the corners won overall.
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post #35649 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 07:22 PM
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Are there any Noesis owners in Southern California that might be willing to give me a demo? I've been reading this thread for years and I've been dying to hear these speakers. I was even considering flying out to one of the GTG's but I keep missing them!

"Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me" -Vizzini
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post #35650 of 35669 Old 08-23-2016, 10:18 PM
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Are there any Noesis owners in Southern California that might be willing to give me a demo? I've been reading this thread for years and I've been dying to hear these speakers. I was even considering flying out to one of the GTG's but I keep missing them!
If you ever get up to Sacramento we might be able to arrange a couple of demos.

PM if interested.
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post #35651 of 35669 Old Yesterday, 12:54 AM
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Haven't visited the JTR thread in a while and it's great comfort to see a lot of the same posters hanging here. Always loved everyone's way of thinking around here.

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post #35652 of 35669 Old Yesterday, 06:54 AM
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Are there any Noesis owners in Southern California that might be willing to give me a demo? I've been reading this thread for years and I've been dying to hear these speakers. I was even considering flying out to one of the GTG's but I keep missing them!
rjh65 has mentioned before that he is in Santa Barbara. He has an Orbit Shifter LFU, 215RT's, 215RM, and 210RT's.

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The Captivator 4000ULF test results are up on Data-Bass:
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post #35654 of 35669 Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM
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Should I replace my shifters with a pair of cap4000s? Specs are so intriguing...and might be the perfect os/s2 hybrid. Really curious to hear this new sub... @Reefdvr27 , have you let yours loose yet?
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Should I replace my shifters with a pair of cap4000s? Specs are so intriguing...and might be the perfect os/s2 hybrid. Really curious to hear this new sub... @Reefdvr27 , have you let yours loose yet?
I say do it? But, why not just add 2 more shifters?
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Should I replace my shifters with a pair of cap4000s? Specs are so intriguing...and might be the perfect os/s2 hybrid. Really curious to hear this new sub... @Reefdvr27 , have you let yours loose yet?


Asim, I don't know man... IMO that big advantage that the OS has starting at 50 hz and above (small advantage at 50 hz but gets much larger quickly as you go higher) is a big deal. The OS can pound your chest into oblivion and I believe this is the reason why. I think you would miss that headroom in the chest punching region.

I'm not saying that the 4000 numbers aren't incredible, they are. But... for me if I had to trade output above 50hz with output below 20hz I wouldn't do it (haha, says the guy with an all sealed setup... ) Sometimes I think we overrate under 20 hz compared to the higher stuff.
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post #35657 of 35669 Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM
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I say do it? But, why not just add 2 more shifters?
Well, to be perfectly honest, 2 already can destroy my room...and I keep them at 'conservative' levels compared to the hotter levels some run their subs...but I've considered adding 2 more shifters whenever they come up in the classifieds...more out of curiosity than necessity....but I think 4 would definitely do actual physical damage to my house and its contents at reference level. Now that I think about it...what kind of numbers could one hit with 4 shifters below 20hz...has anyone done the math?
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Asim, I don't know man... IMO that big advantage that the OS has starting at 50 hz and above (small advantage at 50 hz but gets much larger quickly as you go higher) is a big deal. The OS can pound your chest into oblivion and I believe this is the reason why. I think you would miss that headroom in the chest punching region.

I'm not saying that the 4000 numbers aren't incredible, they are. But... for me if I had to trade output above 50hz with output below 20hz I wouldn't do it (haha, says the guy with an all sealed setup... ) Sometimes I think we overrate under 20 hz compared to the higher stuff.
I can't argue with your logic, good sir...hence why I chose the OS...below 20hz never was a priority...I suffer from curiousititumupgradeitous disease...and thought, "oh, new toy that is good at two things" I really should run my shifters hotter than the already amazing setting XT32 has them at...pound the curiosity out of me. My motto about the shifters is still 'out of my cold dead hands'...I don't think I would let them go even if I tried something else.
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post #35659 of 35669 Old Yesterday, 04:52 PM
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I can't argue with your logic, good sir...hence why I chose the OS...below 20hz never was a priority...I suffer from curiousititumupgradeitous disease...and thought, "oh, new toy that is good at two things" I really should run my shifters hotter than the already amazing setting XT32 has them at...pound the curiosity out of me. My motto about the shifters is still 'out of my cold dead hands'...I don't think I would let them go even if I tried something else.
Yeah, my only long term audio regret (many short term regrets ) was selling the OS's. There is something special about the sound and power of that sub. That said, I think the Cap-4000 is in the same class of subwoofer e.g. if you can fit it into your room, and afford it, you should probably do it.
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If you ever get up to Sacramento we might be able to arrange a couple of demos.

PM if interested.
RMK! I've been contemplating a trip to Sac...and you were definitely on my list or people to pester for a demo lol. Those 215's look studly in your theater room
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Asim, I don't know man... IMO that big advantage that the OS has starting at 50 hz and above (small advantage at 50 hz but gets much larger quickly as you go higher) is a big deal. The OS can pound your chest into oblivion and I believe this is the reason why. I think you would miss that headroom in the chest punching region.

I'm not saying that the 4000 numbers aren't incredible, they are. But... for me if I had to trade output above 50hz with output below 20hz I wouldn't do it (haha, says the guy with an all sealed setup... ) Sometimes I think we overrate under 20 hz compared to the higher stuff.
I completely agree with this.. ALso, I think many rooms would have a gain in the lower bass regions... In fact, if I were to add another sub, I would definitely choose another OS... or, perhaps the OS Pro with an even bigger advantage in the chest pounding bass region?
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RMK! I've been contemplating a trip to Sac...and you were definitely on my list or people to pester for a demo lol. Those 215's look studly in your theater room
Yes.. RMK's HT with the 215's is perfectly setup right. The 215's really fills up the room nicely, punchy, and crisp. Oh, and it's on a suspended deck too.. And, the whole ATMOS experience, my first time listening ATMOS btw, just opened whole can of worms when I left his place. I knew then that ATMOS would be up on my list for upgrade. I don't need anymore stinking bass. It's starting to get much on a suspended deck. Actually it is . Too many things breaking too.. That's why I run just the 215's full range with subs off 85% of the time now. But even with those alone will pounder my room too. lol..
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Yes.. RMK's HT with the 215's is perfectly setup right. The 215's really fills up the room nicely, punchy, and crisp. Oh, and it's on a suspended deck too.. And, the whole ATMOS experience, my first time listening ATMOS btw, just opened whole can of worms when I left his place. I knew then that ATMOS would be up on my list for upgrade. I don't need anymore stinking bass. It's starting to get much on a suspended deck. Actually it is . Too many things breaking too.. That's why I run just the 215's full range with subs off 85% of the time now. But even with those alone will pounder my room too. lol..
Rhed, I need to see a wide shot of your setup....with all of the speakers and subs in the pic. I lost count of everything you have...lol
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Asim, I don't know man... IMO that big advantage that the OS has starting at 50 hz and above (small advantage at 50 hz but gets much larger quickly as you go higher) is a big deal. The OS can pound your chest into oblivion and I believe this is the reason why. I think you would miss that headroom in the chest punching region.

I'm not saying that the 4000 numbers aren't incredible, they are. But... for me if I had to trade output above 50hz with output below 20hz I wouldn't do it (haha, says the guy with an all sealed setup... ) Sometimes I think we overrate under 20 hz compared to the higher stuff.
As incredible as the number are for the 4000, the 215RT is pretty close from 20hz on up. I think I am most impressed with the numbers that puts up considering it isn't a dedicated sub.
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post #35665 of 35669 Old Today, 07:17 AM
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RMK! I've been contemplating a trip to Sac...and you were definitely on my list or people to pester for a demo lol. Those 215's look studly in your theater room
You're welcome any time (I'm home ) and since HTPCat is only a couple of miles from me, I'm sure he would be happy to give you a Noesis 212HT/sub demo.

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post #35666 of 35669 Old Today, 07:30 AM
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The Captivator 4000ULF test results are up on Data-Bass:
Seems pretty weak sauce... Can't you make any better

Especially at 10Hz....
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post #35667 of 35669 Old Today, 08:03 AM
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As incredible as the number are for the 4000, the 215RT is pretty close from 20hz on up. I think I am most impressed with the numbers that puts up considering it isn't a dedicated sub.
Both are pretty awesome, but the Cap 4000ULF is a low frequency beast!

When integrating into a system, one needs to take the basic response into account. Look what happens when their responses are lined up at 80Hz. The Max Long Term Output is also an important metric.



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- Murideo Fresco SIX-G/SIX-A Generator/Analyzer (HDMI 2.x, HDR, UHD)
- ACO Pacific and Earthworks Class 1 microphones
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post #35668 of 35669 Old Today, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Both are pretty awesome, but the Cap 4000ULF is a low frequency beast!

When integrating into a system, one needs to take the basic response into account. Look what happens when their responses are lined up at 80Hz. The Max Long Term Output is also an important metric.
Don't forget that you personally have measured the Noesis 215RT in rooms, flat to 17-18hz.
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post #35669 of 35669 Old Today, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
As incredible as the number are for the 4000, the 215RT is pretty close from 20hz on up. I think I am most impressed with the numbers that puts up considering it isn't a dedicated sub.

Yep!! I said this exact same thing ^ in a group email today.
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215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp , noesis



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