Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1192 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #35731 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sunPin View Post
Gotcha. The other thing is physical space. Would 12" PSA subs still have better output than the 12" SB-2000? The sealed SB-2000 are nice and small. I don't mind replacing subs if I move to a bigger room later.
PSA doesn't make a sub with a 12 inch woofer. They start at 15 inch subs. JTR has all 18 inch subs for home audio
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post #35732 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 09:08 AM
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I forgot...what was your sub plan?
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I agree!
Lol 1400 cu ft room! Dual 18" would need to be converted into seats or come with a built-in mini fridge!

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post #35733 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 09:15 AM
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Lol 1400 cu ft room! Dual 18" would need to be converted into seats or come with a built-in mini fridge!
They are much smaller than you would think.

They have a 21x18 inch foot print vs 14.2x15.4 for the SVS.
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post #35734 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 10:05 AM
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I am looking at a possible upgrade path from the 212s with sensitivity of 101dB to the 215 RMs, with sensitivity of 95dB, ie, a 6dB difference.. some people have claimed that in reality it is more like a 10dB difference because the 212s could actually be under-rated by about 3dB or so...

Currently, I can easily drive the 212s with just my receiver with no issues and lots of headroom to spare.. I have even tested it with the FP10,000 amp and i can discern zero difference in either SQ or Volume... I mean, I can already play it at way above reference with just my receiver so using the dedicated amp is just wasting time...

Now the question is, can I power the 215 RMs like I power the 212s? With just the receiver and hit reference with room to spare or would I be disappointed with the sudden lost of power / sound and would require a much bigger external amp to get the volume back up? Have anyone tried powering the 215s with just a receive and be happy with the results?
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post #35735 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 11:17 AM
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I am looking at a possible upgrade path from the 212s with sensitivity of 101dB to the 215 RMs, with sensitivity of 95dB, ie, a 6dB difference.. some people have claimed that in reality it is more like a 10dB difference because the 212s could actually be under-rated by about 3dB or so...

Currently, I can easily drive the 212s with just my receiver with no issues and lots of headroom to spare.. I have even tested it with the FP10,000 amp and i can discern zero difference in either SQ or Volume... I mean, I can already play it at way above reference with just my receiver so using the dedicated amp is just wasting time...

Now the question is, can I power the 215 RMs like I power the 212s? With just the receiver and hit reference with room to spare or would I be disappointed with the sudden lost of power / sound and would require a much bigger external amp to get the volume back up? Have anyone tried powering the 215s with just a receive and be happy with the results?
I ran my 215's with my avr for a little while when I first got them. It played just fine. Though, I didn't increase bass levels or try to hit reference. The most I went up to was at least -12 MLV. Other then that, it played jus fine.
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post #35736 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 11:21 AM
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I ran my 215's with my avr for a little while when I first got them. It played just fine. Though, I didn't increase bass levels or try to hit reference. The most I went up to was at least -12 MLV. Other then that, it played jus fine.
This meant that it couldn't drive the speakers to reference then?
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post #35737 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 11:48 AM
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True but do you think I will need to approach JTR output in a 1400cu ft room? I listen at basically 95db peak myself, but with the family probably 90db peak. Anything more than that is to show off to guests. =D
I am going to agree with the pushback here on the svs subs. Two 12's are going to easily get overrun by a few 228's and s8's. When it comes to subs, especially sealed, you always need more than you think. To get 95dB peaks with your mains means you need 105dB peaks if you run your subs dead flat. Not too many people I know of run their subs dead flat, and can boost the bass anywhere from 3 to 15dB hot to get things to "Sound right." Science seems to be on our side as the Fletcher Munson curves would explain why most people prefer a decent boost in the bass spectrum. The human ear is actually less sensitive in that frequency range, so a boost makes the sound "Sound" more flat than a truly flat FR.
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post #35738 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 11:49 AM
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Official JTR speaker thread

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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I am going to agree with the pushback here on the svs subs. Two 12's are going to easily get overrun by a few 228's and s8's. When it comes to subs, especially sealed, you always need more than you think. To get 95dB peaks with your mains means you need 105dB peaks if you run your subs dead flat. Not too many people I know of run their subs dead flat, and can boost the bass anywhere from 3 to 15dB hot to get things to "Sound right." Science seems to be on our side as the Fletcher Munson curves would explain why most people prefer a decent boost in the bass spectrum. The human ear is actually less sensitive in that frequency range, so a boost makes the sound "Sound" more flat than a truly flat FR.


Very interesting. What do you mean by "dead flat"? You mean at reference, which is +20db?


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post #35739 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sunPin View Post
Very interesting. What do you mean by "dead flat"? You mean at reference, which is +20db?


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Flat Frequency response can be played back at any level spl wise up to the speaker's capability. You are essentially looking at a straight line from 10hz-20khz +/- a few dB. On the other hand, you have the Equal Loudness Contours and the Fletcher munson curve here:



Which these ^^^^^ Would tell the story of how our ears actually "Perceive" flat sound. If you just took this curve above and flattened it out, 8/10 people would think things would sound dull and thin, a common argument from many people who use Audyssey which attempts to do just that.
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post #35740 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 12:40 PM
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Very interesting. What do you mean by "dead flat"? You mean at reference, which is +20db?


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Sorry, more on this, JBL has done extensive testing and found that slightly sloping (In room) response is much preferred to a dead flat freq. response. Their synthesis line and process shoots for a FR that looks like this:



I personally follow that same concept and find the sound to be extremely more pleasing that a flat FR.
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post #35741 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by sunPin View Post
Dual SVS SB-2000 after upgrading LCR. It's possible I might get a projector before I get the subs, but that will kind of depend on what I end up with for LCR. The Single 8 drops off after 80hz, so a sub upgrade might be more necessary immediately. That said, I already have a sub that I like, so I could stick with it until after I put the projector in.

Comments on that approach welcomed.
Gotcha. Many of the JTR speakers are designed to be used with subs, so you'd need to use something. The SVS subs can probably hold you over until you get a bigger room. The RT speakers are designed to be used with or without subs.

I haven't personally heard the S8s, but from what I've read, they really impressive for their size. If you are after extremely high fidelity, they probably fall short of the 3-way JTRs (HTRs and RTs.) This may not be noticeable for average content, but if you are after that last 5% of quality, it's something to consider.

On the other hand, the S8s are very practical, and their wide dispersion pattern is good for certain applications - not to mention lower cost.

The S8s are practical to wall mount and aim straight forward. The HTRs and RTs would need to be toed in. Not so practical for wall mounting, but they can be floor standing, inside the wall, or behind the screen. Keep in mind that floor standing HTRs and RTs can be placed against the wall and in corners with great results, thanks to the directivity control.

My instincts say that 210RTs tucked in the corners might be best, if the room can accommodate that.

Only you can say what your room can really accommodate. If it's S8s, and you use them with subs, that can work great.
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post #35742 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Flat Frequency response can be played back at any level spl wise up to the speaker's capability. You are essentially looking at a straight line from 10hz-20khz +/- a few dB. On the other hand, you have the Equal Loudness Contours and the Fletcher munson curve here:







Which these ^^^^^ Would tell the story of how our ears actually "Perceive" flat sound. If you just took this curve above and flattened it out, 8/10 people would think things would sound dull and thin, a common argument from many people who use Audyssey which attempts to do just that.


Really interesting, thanks for sharing this. So basically you and others are saying that Audessey and other room correction algos will boost low bass to compensate for perceived loss of SPL in that region, and that the sub will need to be able to keep up with that boost should mains peak at 95db?


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post #35743 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Checkout Rythmik Audio subs if PSAs 15s are too big (~17x18x18). Rhythmik makes dual 8s, ported and sealed 12s, dual 12, and 15s. The Rythmik F12 and F12SE look great and should smoke the SVSs.

http://rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html


The Rhythmik is about $300 more than the 12" SVS. Is that for the headroom? Also, I heard that Rhythmiks don't have a circuit to protect the woofer from bottoming out. That ever a problem? I don't know that I will ever play loud enough for that to be a benefit but...

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post #35744 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 04:09 PM
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The Rhythmik is about $300 more than the 12" SVS. Is that for the headroom? Also, I heard that Rhythmiks don't have a circuit to protect the woofer from bottoming out. That ever a problem? I don't know that I will ever play loud enough for that to be a benefit but...
Rythmiks have limiters. They are defeatable to get that last few %, kind of like turning off traction control. I wouldn't recommend disabling them. Also, limiters don't protect you 100%. They are tuned for a balance between output and protection.
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post #35745 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 04:15 PM
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Gotcha. Many of the JTR speakers are designed to be used with subs, so you'd need to use something. The SVS subs can probably hold you over until you get a bigger room. The RT speakers are designed to be used with or without subs.



I haven't personally heard the S8s, but from what I've read, they really impressive for their size. If you are after extremely high fidelity, they probably fall short of the 3-way JTRs (HTRs and RTs.) This may not be noticeable for average content, but if you are after that last 5% of quality, it's something to consider.



On the other hand, the S8s are very practical, and their wide dispersion pattern is good for certain applications - not to mention lower cost.



The S8s are practical to wall mount and aim straight forward. The HTRs and RTs would need to be toed in. Not so practical for wall mounting, but they can be floor standing, inside the wall, or behind the screen. Keep in mind that floor standing HTRs and RTs can be placed against the wall and in corners with great results, thanks to the directivity control.



My instincts say that 210RTs tucked in the corners might be best, if the room can accommodate that.



Only you can say what your room can really accommodate. If it's S8s, and you use them with subs, that can work great.


Honestly the S8 (low profile version) looks more and more practical the more I look at them. The only thing I worry about is without a dedicated mid, I will be wanting to upgrade again in two or three years, which I'm trying to avoid.

Right now, I'm between the S8 and Legacy Audio Silhouette 3-way. They appear to be very different animals at different price points. Very hard to decide without being able to audition either of them!

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post #35746 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 05:32 PM
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Reading all those 215RT high spl posts got me thinking, do you think it would be worth it to put high wattage amplifiers for the 215RM ?

Currently running d-sonic 800 watts @ 4ohm to each of my three 215RM's LCR. Thinking of getting a stronger d-sonic amp which puts out 1500 watts and up. Would it be Worth it on the 215RM's to get more bass output ? I have a low ceiling so getting 215RT's are out of the question
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post #35747 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 06:10 PM
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Reading all those 215RT high spl posts got me thinking, do you think it would be worth it to put high wattage amplifiers for the 215RM ?

Currently running d-sonic 800 watts @ 4ohm to each of my three 215RM's LCR. Thinking of getting a stronger d-sonic amp which puts out 1500 watts and up. Would it be Worth it on the 215RM's to get more bass output ? I have a low ceiling so getting 215RT's are out of the question
Going from 800w to 1500w would be a max output change of less than 3db. Not sure that would make much difference unless you are maxing out your current amps.
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post #35748 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 06:15 PM
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Going from 800w to 1500w would be a max output change of less than 3db. Not sure that would make much difference unless you are maxing out your current amps.
Could possibly be more of a gap in watts in the lower frequencies where it counts? Doubt it though since they are both D Sonic amps....
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post #35749 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 06:16 PM
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Lol 1400 cu ft room! Dual 18" would need to be converted into seats or come with a built-in mini fridge!

Nah, I have 3 S2's in a room quite a bit smaller than yours. That's what the PJ and AT screen are for.. they make it easy to hide a bunch of big subs!


The built-in mini fridge is a good idea though... no need to run my lazy a$$ down a flight of stairs to grab another beer.
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post #35750 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Sorry, more on this, JBL has done extensive testing and found that slightly sloping (In room) response is much preferred to a dead flat freq. response. Their synthesis line and process shoots for a FR that looks like this:



I personally follow that same concept and find the sound to be extremely more pleasing that a flat FR.


I'm an outlier here. I have always preferred a bump in the frequencies starting around 8 khz and above, like a reverse house curve for the treble (slight boost at 8khz, more at 10, etc). Many would think this would sound harsh, but as you and many others know harshness is much lower in the treble range.

Running a curve like the graph above sounds dead to me.

Could be I'm going deaf but I don't think so, I have always preferred the boost ever since I can remember, and I have preferred it on all speakers I have ever owned.

One of the things that drew me to the BMS CD is that is seems to take that boost and sound better than other CD's/domes/whatever the hell you call Maggies treble producing speaker part/ that I have owned.

Now, I will say that the more poorly the music is recorded the more that boost is necessary to my ears but even on the good stuff I like a little boost.

There - I said it. I would be a Harmon reject.
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post #35751 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 07:28 PM
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I originally bought my crest CC4000 amps with the intention of bridging them (4000w at 4 ohm), one for each 215RT. It seems that bridged they may put out too much power. That would only really be an issue if I were to try to go extreme on the volume right? I mean if at reference or +5 or even +10 i don't think I am going to be sending 4000w to each speaker. In retrospect it probably would have been better to go with 3 CC2800's and use each one bridged (2800w into 4 ohms). I could still swap them out as the store I got them from locally has a 60 day return policy, but I think I would be hit with a 15% restocking fee since they were opened. That would be more than the difference that I paid over the CC2800's which is why I was thinking about keeping the CC4000's.

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post #35752 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 07:32 PM
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I'm an outlier here. I have always preferred a bump in the frequencies starting around 8 khz and above, like a reverse house curve for the treble (slight boost at 8khz, more at 10, etc). Many would think this would sound harsh, but as you and many others know harshness is much lower in the treble range.

Running a curve like the graph above sounds dead to me.

Could be I'm going deaf but I don't think so, I have always preferred the boost ever since I can remember, and I have preferred it on all speakers I have ever owned.

One of the things that drew me to the BMS CD is that is seems to take that boost and sound better than other CD's/domes/whatever the hell you call Maggies treble producing speaker part/ that I have owned.

Now, I will say that the more poorly the music is recorded the more that boost is necessary to my ears but even on the good stuff I like a little boost.

There - I said it. I would be a Harmon reject.

That curve may be appealing to "most", but it's definitely not for everyone. Sound is like food. There's not a single type of food or drink that everyone universally likes.
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post #35753 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 07:39 PM
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Nah, I have 3 S2's in a room quite a bit smaller than yours. That's what the PJ and AT screen are for.. they make it easy to hide a bunch of big subs!


The built-in mini fridge is a good idea though... no need to run my lazy a$$ down a flight of stairs to grab another beer.


Gotta ask, are you married with kids?

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post #35754 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 08:23 PM
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Not sure i'm maxing them out as im running a standard flat dirac response using my xmc-1

thinking of boosting the low end if ever i do change amps. D-sonic i'm now looking at is 1500w @ 8ohms so that should be in the high 2000's @ 4 ohms for the 215RM

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Going from 800w to 1500w would be a max output change of less than 3db. Not sure that would make much difference unless you are maxing out your current amps.
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Not sure i'm maxing them out as im running a standard flat dirac response using my xmc-1

thinking of boosting the low end if ever i do change amps. D-sonic i'm now looking at is 1500w @ 8ohms so that should be in the high 2000's @ 4 ohms for the 215RM
D-sonic rates their 1500w @ 8 ohm amps at 2400 at 4 ohms. There is one for sale in the classifieds right now (3 channel 1500w @ 8 ohms)
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post #35756 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 09:17 PM
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D-sonic rates their 1500w @ 8 ohm amps at 2400 at 4 ohms. There is one for sale in the classifieds right now (3 channel 1500w @ 8 ohms)
that's actually what i'm looking at , in case i do get it , what frequencies do you suggest i boost in order to get more bass from the 215RM's ?
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post #35757 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 09:22 PM
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that's actually what i'm looking at , in case i do get it , what frequencies do you suggest i boost in order to get more bass from the 215RM's ?
What device do you have to boost the frequencies?
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What device do you have to boost the frequencies?
dirac live full version on the emotiva XMC-1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by APRisti View Post
dirac live full version on the emotiva XMC-1
Thanks. That is right you did say that already.

Maybe do a +3db low shelf at 60hz to start if the XMC can do that.

Actually - it might be better to cut the highs than to boost the lows. So you could do a -3db high shelf at 60hz.

Cutting the highs is the same as boosting the lows but then you don't have to worry about clipping.
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post #35760 of 37859 Old 08-31-2016, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Checkout Rythmik Audio subs if PSAs 15s are too big (~17x18x18). Rhythmik makes dual 8s, ported and sealed 12s, dual 12, and 15s. The Rythmik F12 and F12SE look great and should smoke the SVSs.

http://rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html


I tried to find data showing the F12 peak output but couldn't. The SB-2000 has a bigger amp, so I'd figure it would hit higher peaks than the F12.

Data-bass.com doesn't have it...

Know where I can find F12 data?

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