Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1204 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #36091 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The horn is dead center on the 212HTR so 20" from the bottom. I'll have to check on the 210RT.


the center of the horn is at 20" I figured that much, I'm wondering about the edges (top and bottom) of the wooden horn.




These are going behind an AT screen, and I don't want the frame of the screen in front of the horn. I think the 212s will be the perfect height for the horn to be at ear level, but the frame for my screen may interfere, and I need to see if it's slight enough for me to just move the screen down a little bit.
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post #36092 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggernick View Post
the center of the horn is at 20" I figured that much, I'm wondering about the edges (top and bottom) of the wooden horn.




These are going behind an AT screen, and I don't want the frame of the screen in front of the horn. I think the 212s will be the perfect height for the horn to be at ear level, but the frame for my screen may interfere, and I need to see if it's slight enough for me to just move the screen down a little bit.
From what I remember the center of the horn on the 210's was right around 37/36 inches.

I have had the 228HT's (2014), 212HTR(2014's), 210RT(2015's) and 215RT(2016) and the 210RT is my favorite for music with no sub. The 210RT's will put out more bass than your SVS sub from 40hz and up (and that is about 99% of music). They are incredible and give up nothing for movies to the 212's unless you listen way above reference.
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post #36093 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
From what I remember the center of the horn on the 210's was right around 37/36 inches.

I have had the 228HT's (2014), 212HTR(2014's), 210RT(2015's) and 215RT(2016) and the 210RT is my favorite for music with no sub. The 210RT's will put out more bass than your SVS sub from 40hz and up (and that is about 99% of music). They are incredible and give up nothing for movies to the 212's unless you listen way above reference.


wow. how is it that the 10" drivers (210RT) are significantly outperforming the 12" (212HTR) ? are they different drivers entirely? are there other differences that I'm not seeing?
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post #36094 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by triggernick View Post
wow. how is it that the 10" drivers (210RT) are significantly outperforming the 12" (212HTR) ? are they different drivers entirely? are there other differences that I'm not seeing?
Lower tuning on the cabs allows them to play (basically) full range for music listening. The 212HTR is tuned much higher to allow for much more output, but the trade-off is you definitely will want to run them with a sub at all times. The 210 drivers are high excursion 10's where the 212 has "Pro-style" 12's that are more efficient and can take a TON of power.
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post #36095 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Lower tuning on the cabs allows them to play (basically) full range for music listening. The 212HTR is tuned much higher to allow for much more output, but the trade-off is you definitely will want to run them with a sub at all times. The 210 drivers are high excursion 10's where the 212 has "Pro-style" 12's that are more efficient and can take a TON of power.


I run the SVS PC13 Ultra 99% of the time. even listening to vinyl, I'm typically up-scaling it with DTS:X on all channels, I really like the immersive sound with the surrounds.

I would be powering LCR with a Parasound A31.


is the 212HTR going to be better at anything (compared with the 210RT) other than being louder? I have no doubts the 210RTs will get plenty loud. listening over 110 dbs doesn't happen a lot with a 8 month old in the house most the time.
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post #36096 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggernick View Post
I run the SVS PC13 Ultra 99% of the time. even listening to vinyl, I'm typically up-scaling it with DTS:X on all channels, I really like the immersive sound with the surrounds.

I would be powering LCR with a Parasound A31.


is the 212HTR going to be better at anything (compared with the 210RT) other than being louder? I have no doubts the 210RTs will get plenty loud. listening over 110 dbs doesn't happen a lot with a 8 month old in the house most the time.
For movies they will sound mostly the same. I like 2 ch music to not use subs. To my ears the 210RT's with no subs sound better than my 212's with 2 Triax subs.

Check out my GTG thread from this past March for impressions of the 210RT's. I think they are the most underrated JTR speaker.

Any interest in a Pittsburgh area meet up?
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post #36097 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by triggernick View Post
JTRs are in my future. That much is decided.
One thing you can count on with JTR is support that lasts way beyond any warranty. I very recently had an issue with my subs that are loooooong out of warranty and Jeff immediately replied to my emails and coordinated with Speakerpower to make sure that the issue was resolved.

Absolutely top notch customer service right there and the reason I will be looking at JTR first for my next sub purchase.

@Jeff Permanian Thanks man, everything back already and all good.
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post #36098 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
One thing you can count on with JTR is support that lasts way beyond any warranty. I very recently had an issue with my subs that are loooooong out of warranty and Jeff immediately replied to my emails and coordinated with Speakerpower to make sure that the issue was resolved.

Absolutely top notch customer service right there and the reason I will be looking at JTR first for my next sub purchase.

@Jeff Permanian Thanks man, everything back already and all good.
Nice!

I forgot, what subs do you have?
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post #36099 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 06:27 PM
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Nice!

I forgot, what subs do you have?
I have a couple S2's. I've had no good reason to make a change, but I have been considering going to four subs.
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post #36100 of 36215 Old 11-04-2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vince32837 View Post
DesertDome is in the house..full day of audio CAL!!

V
How did everything turn out? How much difference did it make? Precisely what did he do?


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post #36101 of 36215 Old 11-05-2016, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
How did everything turn out? How much difference did it make? Precisely what did he do?
DD has left the house!

His audio tools consisted of high-end microphone, laptop, and MOTU AV box. I have a 9.1 channel setup (no ATMOS). Meausured all the modes in my room, balanced all my channels, measured sound reverb. time..some spots over 70 msec I think..25-30 msec desirable. Adjusted all my crest and crown amps. (measured speaker distances with a laser to setup)

The LFE blending experiment into the 215 mains, did not go so well. NO matter what what combo he tried, 3 x 215 set to small, and the OS gets all the LFE sounded better.
He also fed my readings into SMART waveform software, he tweaked the phase delay and my gain setting on the OS, to reach some harmony point.

for video- he pulled up in calman SW plus is 50mm machine gun colorimeter, and tweaked RBG,Cyan, etc..tweaked my JVC, touch up from the remote PC sessions. tweaked scaling and zooming for 1.78 and 2.39 movies

end of day 2- he piped his Jriver collection of 100 video and audio samples, proving he tightened my system up a solid notch!
Its funny at work, if people have A/V questions they come to me.. When you spend 2 full days with DD(Michael), that's serious knowledge of HT..I was glad to be his errand boy, hold the microphone right there"

it was a pleasure having him over..

Vince
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post #36102 of 36215 Old 11-05-2016, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggernick View Post
I run the SVS PC13 Ultra 99% of the time. even listening to vinyl, I'm typically up-scaling it with DTS:X on all channels, I really like the immersive sound with the surrounds.

I would be powering LCR with a Parasound A31.


is the 212HTR going to be better at anything (compared with the 210RT) other than being louder? I have no doubts the 210RTs will get plenty loud. listening over 110 dbs doesn't happen a lot with a 8 month old in the house most the time.
I love my 212s paired with my A51. I'm not sure why they sound so great together, but wow.

If you plan to use them with subs, the extra efficiency of the 212s helps with dynamics (assuming fixed power). If you want floor standing speakers or want to run them full range, the 210 is the way to go.
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post #36103 of 36215 Old 11-05-2016, 07:53 PM
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I love my 212s and S8s with 2 s1 subs in back and seaton master/slave up front.

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"I have a need to feed the hole with more Audio & Video toys"
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post #36104 of 36215 Old 11-05-2016, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vince32837 View Post
DD has left the house!

His audio tools consisted of high-end microphone, laptop, and MOTU AV box. I have a 9.1 channel setup (no ATMOS). Meausured all the modes in my room, balanced all my channels, measured sound reverb. time..some spots over 70 msec I think..25-30 msec desirable. Adjusted all my crest and crown amps. (measured speaker distances with a laser to setup)

The LFE blending experiment into the 215 mains, did not go so well. NO matter what what combo he tried, 3 x 215 set to small, and the OS gets all the LFE sounded better.
He also fed my readings into SMART waveform software, he tweaked the phase delay and my gain setting on the OS, to reach some harmony point.

for video- he pulled up in calman SW plus is 50mm machine gun colorimeter, and tweaked RBG,Cyan, etc..tweaked my JVC, touch up from the remote PC sessions. tweaked scaling and zooming for 1.78 and 2.39 movies

end of day 2- he piped his Jriver collection of 100 video and audio samples, proving he tightened my system up a solid notch!
Its funny at work, if people have A/V questions they come to me.. When you spend 2 full days with DD(Michael), that's serious knowledge of HT..I was glad to be his errand boy, hold the microphone right there"

it was a pleasure having him over..

Vince
Great feedback Vince thank you! So exactly how much difference did all of the changes make in the overall sound of your system from before the changes? Just subtle changes or pretty dramatic or somewhere in the middle?


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post #36105 of 36215 Old 11-05-2016, 09:43 PM
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I would say 10-15% improvement.. I thought things sounded really good before he showed up.. I could see myself, copying down all my settings..and making the OS 3-4 dB hot..its a special animal..DD believes in total blend of your system..
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post #36106 of 36215 Old 11-05-2016, 11:38 PM
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I had a great time a Vince's house. He has a beautiful house and theater. He has a ranch house with no basement so the theater is on the main floor and integrates nicely off the living room and kitchen. The equipment room is on the left of the hallway right before going up several steps to enter at riser level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjh65@verizon.ne View Post
Precisely what did he do?
There are four major parts of the audio calibration process with many small steps. The major parts are Evaluation, Verification, Design, and Calibration. Here is a summary of some of the steps.

Listening - I listen to my own playlist before doing any changes, at the end of the calibration session, and after all major adjustments
Function checks - Source components, processor, and speakers are all checked for proper settings and correct connections. I've had people send stereo out of their DVD player and upmix at the processor.
Gain Optimization - I use an oscilloscope on the output of the processor to see what bass management is doing and to make sure it won't clip. On the Marantz 8801, it would clip at -7 dB if the subwoofer trim was set to 0 dB. I lower the subwoofer trim to -7 dB and test for no clipping with real content. I also set the amps to not clip with the maximum real life signal. I was able to increase the headroom of the system by +17 dB! 0 dB on the Marantz volume control is actually -10 dB Reference Level after calibration
Processor DSP testing - I also test what various settings do if I don't already know. On the Marantz 8801, the LFE + Mains is a subwoofer setting. If the mains are set to large, it copies the mains to the subwoofer. There is no way on on any Marantz receiver to route the LFE back to the mains. The Marantz has only 20 ms of overall delay. This makes it difficult to integrate a horn subwoofer properly. The Q of any PEQ filters is also sometimes measured.
Position - All positions are measured. Mains and center are place properly for a sweet triangle that encompasses the listening area. LCR are moved forward/back if possible to test for SBIR and best integration with sub(s). LR toe in is adjusted. Surrounds are pulled to edge of column.
Phase test - all drivers and tweeters are tested for correct phase
Close mic measurements - All speakers/subs are measured from 1 meter
Listening position measurements - All speakers/subs are measured from the listening position.
Acoustic measurements - room noise floor and reverberation are measured, room modes are noted
Bass measurements - I use three class 1 microphones in the listening area to get a dB and power average of the bass response with SMAART V.8 software. Both spectrum and transfer response measurements are taken. Transfer response measurement show the original signal, the out of the processor DSP, and the measured response are 3 locations and the average of the 3 measurements. The transfer response measurements are done with actual content and show the true room response with bass management and how all channels are contributing to the bass.
Dialog intelligibility - subwoofer and center are blended first for the best dialogue intelligibility. This involves level, crossover, delay, and tone adjustments in the processor.
Bass optimization - PEQ and delay are done on my laptop using JRiver for quick testing of multiple settings. This allows me to completely dial in the system and find what is best in a short time. However, one is limited by the system capabilities for final PEQ. For example, the Marantz 8801 has limited EQ capability. I had a new laptop and hadn't loaded Audiolense yet. I use Audiolense in my own system. Audiolense does both time and frequency correction and can easily integrate subs and mains perfectly. When it is installed and licensed, I can test a system with Audiolense, too. I use SMAART to exactly match the subwoofer and main's phase at the crossover region. Depending on setup and available locations, time is spent on optimizing subwoofer placement in the room.
Reference Level - All channels are calibrated to Reference Level. In the case of Vince's system, 0 dB on the volume control is actually +10 Reference Level.

This calibration was an on-site continuation of some earlier remote calibration using TeamViewer with Vince measuring with Omnimic and making changes as we went along. We made some changes to the subwoofer's own settings. This corrected a huge null at the crossover region and a roll-off of the bass at ~30 Hz. Fixing this helped immensely and gave us a good starting point. Vince's system can be improved with room treatments and outboard DSP. When I pulled down the room modes with narrow Q filters using my MOTU, the bass improvement was fairly high on my scale without much loss of bass energy. Unfortunately, the Marantz processor can't do this by itself.

I have a fairly extensive calibration report that I write up. I haven't done Vince's report yet. He may not even know all the changes I made since he wasn't always in the room. I let owners' comment at their own discretion what changes were made.
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post #36107 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 06:44 AM
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So thanks to Carp for the awesome 215's and the shop talk yesterday. Always cool to meet other avs'ers and shoot the breeze. After spending all night reframing my screen and such I finally got them set up with Audyessy and let them rip and very cool. I'm only using a emotiva UPA-700 right now but a crown 4002 is on the way. I'll be messing around with minidsp settings and getting everything just so but super excited about all of it. Also still considering an Anthem receiver to try ARC...but we'll see...
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post #36108 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vince32837 View Post
I would say 10-15% improvement.. I thought things sounded really good before he showed up.. I could see myself, copying down all my settings..and making the OS 3-4 dB hot..its a special animal..DD believes in total blend of your system..
Glad to hear you get everything setup Vince. I heard it sounds and looks amazing. Would love to hear it next time I'm in your neighborhood.
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post #36109 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 11:42 AM
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So I've spent the last 3 hours listening to the 215's in 2 channel for pandora and iTunes. Wow. Just. Wow. Can't wait till my crown gets here to fairly power them.
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post #36110 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 12:16 PM
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So I've spent the last 3 hours listening to the 215's in 2 channel for pandora and iTunes. Wow. Just. Wow. Can't wait till my crown gets here to fairly power them.
Great!

Don't make @carp feel bad for selling them

JTR (3 215 RT, 5 212HTR, 2 Growlers, 4 S2's)
PSA (4 Triax's)
DIY Sound Group (4 Volt 8's in Slanted boxes, 3 Volt 8's in Ported boxes)
SVS (2 SB13+ and one SB12-NSD)
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post #36111 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 12:31 PM
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Great!

Don't make @carp feel bad for selling them
Ha! I think he's excited about the various possibilities he's put out about having movie speakers and music speakers. Though my guess is he'll end up with some 210's...
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post #36112 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 03:56 PM
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So I've spent the last 3 hours listening to the 215's in 2 channel for pandora and iTunes. Wow. Just. Wow. Can't wait till my crown gets here to fairly power them.

Glad you are liking them!! Wait until you start playing with bass boosts using the crown dsp. Those 15's will really pound!

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Great!

Don't make @carp feel bad for selling them
Nah, I never regret buying or selling gear. I'm always thinking about the next thing. However... I am listening to my Volt's right now and they don't compare to the 215's that's for sure, not that I would expect them to.
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post #36113 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 04:06 PM
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@carp , man I'm not coming by your house at Christmas...ha ha ha!!!!!!!
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post #36114 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 04:10 PM
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@carp , man I'm not coming by your house at Christmas...ha ha ha!!!!!!!
Once Sabbath starts playing... you'll change your mind.
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post #36115 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 04:11 PM
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Once Sabbath starts playing... you'll change your mind.
I know, I'm crazy that way.
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post #36116 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Glad you are liking them!! Wait until you start playing with bass boosts using the crown dsp. Those 15's will really pound!



Nah, I never regret buying or selling gear. I'm always thinking about the next thing. However... I am listening to my Volt's right now and they don't compare to the 215's that's for sure, not that I would expect them to.
215RT's to volts might be the downgrade of the century

How do you like Jonathan's mackies for movies?

That would save you a lot of money towards the 210RT's.
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post #36117 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 04:44 PM
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215RT's to volts might be the downgrade of the century

How do you like Jonathan's mackies for movies?

That would save you a lot of money towards the 210RT's.
That's one of the options, I love how his room sounds for movies. Those or all Volts, probably Volts since I liked them better blind at his place recently.
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post #36118 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
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That's one of the options, I love how his room sounds for movies. Those or all Volts, probably Volts since I liked them better blind at his place recently.
there are many DIY Soundgroup speakers that I would like to try build. They have an HTM series now that look good for movies.

Always wanted to try the Sentinels too
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post #36119 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 05:19 PM
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A little OT, but seen Hacksaw Ridge lastnight. 1st time I have been to the movies since I built my room or at least I think it is. The movie was excellent, however it was very graphic. I was pretty shocked, one of the most realistic war movies ever. Felt like I was on the field with the troops, it was pretty rough. Not sure if it dug to deep, but the surround was excellent. Be looking forward to running this one through my JTR's in a few months.
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post #36120 of 36215 Old 11-06-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I have a couple S2's. I've had no good reason to make a change, but I have been considering going to four subs.
Sell them and get a pair of 4000ULF's. You wont regret it!
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