Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1209 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #36241 of 36245 Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Makes sense...

But there is something else I am missing here...

If all of these were 100% true, then 2 speakers, each designed with different sized drivers and have a flat measurement for a certain frequency range should sound exactly the same (with the exact same feeling of mid bass impact), correct?

I have tested, AB comparison wise with LCR Slanted 8s and my 212s... Now, everyone here thinks the old 212s (especially the sealed version which I use) has a dip in the mid bass region.. so, according to this logic, my s8s should have MORE mid bass bang correct if i drive them to a 'certain' volume that both speakers can handle?

I can tell you, as great as the s8s sound, the mid bass even at low volume just can't compare to the 212s... (I am coupling it with the OS, both crossed at 80hz).. basically at every volume, the S8s would lose to the 212s... even at whisper low volumes... you feel that 'bang' that the 212s give out that the S8s don't...

So, again, unless I am missing something here,...



Yes, exactly... thus, why i hate fan noise... even the slightest noise can be heard very loudly in my room...
Dispersion, distortion, and phase (group delay) can be major factors.

S8s and 212s have very different dispersion characteristics, although I doubt that's the issue at 80hz.

It could be phase issue, if the S8 is out of phase with your sub(s) at that frequency.

You might be running out of output at that frequency, and maybe the s8s are starting to compress.

It's also possible that the 212s have some sort of distortion at that frequency that is producing a fuller sound. For example, ringing or port noise.

There was a big thread about how everyone loved ported mid-bass-monitors. It's hard to guess, but that could be output capability, ringing, or port noise, or some combination thereof.

Another possibility is that differing room placement or phase gave different results.

Whatever the underlying reason, I got the best results in my room by crossing my older 212s at 100hz and fine tuning the response curve in Dirac. This didn't cause any localization issues with my sealed subs, although crossing above 80hz did have did have distracting localization issues with some ported subs I tried (probably port noise).

I also found that simply tuning sub gain and crossover frequency was completely inadequate for dialing in a good bass response curve. That stuff varies so much from room to room, it's a lottery what speakers will happen to have the right natural response. I don't think there's much motivation to obsess over natural response, though, now that we have such good EQ options available.
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post #36242 of 36245 Old Yesterday, 10:14 AM
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Yes, there are some good EQ options now but Audyssey XT32 can do an 11.2 setup without using very complicated and or expensive add-on solutions. Most if not all reports say DIRAC is the best new EQ technology and I will probably go in that direction once a single source, reasonably priced 11 channel plus solution is available. In the meantime, using Audyssey, the manual EQ in my INUKE amps and JRiver has allowed me to fine tune the sound to taste.

I watched what I think is the best film I've seen in 2016 last night. Hell or High Water with Jeff Bridges, Chris Pine and Ben Foster is a both disturbing and entertaining look at Middle America from a British director that provides an interesting outsiders perspective on our current socioeconomic political climate. The writing and performances by virtually the entire cast make this little film worth seeing. That said, if you thought Independence Day: Resurgence was a good use of your time you might skip this one. But if you like sitting in dark rooms, looking at moving pictures with a good story, great cinematography, acting and soundtrack, it doesn't get much better than this.

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post #36243 of 36245 Old Yesterday, 11:50 PM
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Yes, there are some good EQ options now but Audyssey XT32 can do an 11.2 setup without using very complicated and or expensive add-on solutions. Most if not all reports say DIRAC is the best new EQ technology and I will probably go in that direction once a single source, reasonably priced 11 channel plus solution is available. In the meantime, using Audyssey, the manual EQ in my INUKE amps and JRiver has allowed me to fine tune the sound to taste.
Arcam and Audio Control now make 7.1.4 Atmos + DTS:X receivers with Dirac.
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post #36244 of 36245 Old Today, 08:09 AM
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Arcam and Audio Control now make 7.1.4 Atmos + DTS:X receivers with Dirac.
Thanks Rob, those look promising. My current Marantz can upmix Dolby and DTS HD audio using DSU so the 11 channels are always active. I think I'll hold off for the 2nd gen units as there really isn't anything that needs fixing EQ wise and I'm in no hurry to get native DTS:X capability.

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post #36245 of 36245 Old Today, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Thanks Rob, those look promising. My current Marantz can upmix Dolby and DTS HD audio using DSU so the 11 channels are always active. I think I'll hold off for the 2nd gen units as there really isn't anything that needs fixing EQ wise and I'm in no hurry to get native DTS:X capability.
I don't know much about those models. Do they lack DSU?

Considering the large difference in processing power between a PC, a Datasat, the DDRC88s, and these prosumer receivers, I asked Dirac about differences in the Dirac implementations. They refused comment, or even give any hints on any qualitative differences. It's against their policy.

I started looking through the Arcam thread.

This post suggests that the AVR850 has 12 channels of Dirac, but the AVR550 only has 8:
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Hmm...here Dirac is saying that the AVR850 has 96khz/24 bit support. Those are the same specs as the Datasat, but it might not measure up in other ways, like filter length.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Okay...96khz is only for stereo. I don't actually care about 96khz, as long as there is no sample rate conversion.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Hmm...separate settings for subs sounds good.
It sounds like it's actually 7.2.4, with a single EQ channel for both subs, which is much better than the dual-EQ Emotiva implementation (although they may have fixed that with firmware updates).
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Aaand...a firmware update added 7.2.4 Dirac for the AVR550. Later posts say that the preamp section is identical, and just the amp section is different (more amp channels and better quality amps w/4 ohm ratings on the AVR850).
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Got to get some work done, but the Arcam units look promising. It says a lot that they dumped ARC for Dirac in top models. I'm sure that there are benefits to avoiding v1.0, but these look workable.

Okay...I lied...it sounds like Arcam is coming out with a prepro model in 2017 with similar capabilities, called the AV860. I presume it will trade the amps for balanced outputs.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Arcam has it on their page:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,FMJ,...ssor,av860.htm

For me, I think that AV860 sounds the most appealing. I like the extra SNR and balanced outs. It would be tempting if the receiver models let you assign the amps for surrounds and heights, though. I'm not sure if that's possible.

After some reading, the internal amps aren't assignable. So, you are required to use external amplification for heights, but surrounds are covered by internal amps.

Last edited by rcohen; Today at 09:06 AM.
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