Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1209 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #36241 of 36258 Old 12-04-2016, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Makes sense...

But there is something else I am missing here...

If all of these were 100% true, then 2 speakers, each designed with different sized drivers and have a flat measurement for a certain frequency range should sound exactly the same (with the exact same feeling of mid bass impact), correct?

I have tested, AB comparison wise with LCR Slanted 8s and my 212s... Now, everyone here thinks the old 212s (especially the sealed version which I use) has a dip in the mid bass region.. so, according to this logic, my s8s should have MORE mid bass bang correct if i drive them to a 'certain' volume that both speakers can handle?

I can tell you, as great as the s8s sound, the mid bass even at low volume just can't compare to the 212s... (I am coupling it with the OS, both crossed at 80hz).. basically at every volume, the S8s would lose to the 212s... even at whisper low volumes... you feel that 'bang' that the 212s give out that the S8s don't...

So, again, unless I am missing something here,...



Yes, exactly... thus, why i hate fan noise... even the slightest noise can be heard very loudly in my room...
Dispersion, distortion, and phase (group delay) can be major factors.

S8s and 212s have very different dispersion characteristics, although I doubt that's the issue at 80hz.

It could be phase issue, if the S8 is out of phase with your sub(s) at that frequency.

You might be running out of output at that frequency, and maybe the s8s are starting to compress.

It's also possible that the 212s have some sort of distortion at that frequency that is producing a fuller sound. For example, ringing or port noise.

There was a big thread about how everyone loved ported mid-bass-monitors. It's hard to guess, but that could be output capability, ringing, or port noise, or some combination thereof.

Another possibility is that differing room placement or phase gave different results.

Whatever the underlying reason, I got the best results in my room by crossing my older 212s at 100hz and fine tuning the response curve in Dirac. This didn't cause any localization issues with my sealed subs, although crossing above 80hz did have did have distracting localization issues with some ported subs I tried (probably port noise).

I also found that simply tuning sub gain and crossover frequency was completely inadequate for dialing in a good bass response curve. That stuff varies so much from room to room, it's a lottery what speakers will happen to have the right natural response. I don't think there's much motivation to obsess over natural response, though, now that we have such good EQ options available.
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post #36242 of 36258 Old 12-04-2016, 10:14 AM
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Yes, there are some good EQ options now but Audyssey XT32 can do an 11.2 setup without using very complicated and or expensive add-on solutions. Most if not all reports say DIRAC is the best new EQ technology and I will probably go in that direction once a single source, reasonably priced 11 channel plus solution is available. In the meantime, using Audyssey, the manual EQ in my INUKE amps and JRiver has allowed me to fine tune the sound to taste.

I watched what I think is the best film I've seen in 2016 last night. Hell or High Water with Jeff Bridges, Chris Pine and Ben Foster is a both disturbing and entertaining look at Middle America from a British director that provides an interesting outsiders perspective on our current socioeconomic political climate. The writing and performances by virtually the entire cast make this little film worth seeing. That said, if you thought Independence Day: Resurgence was a good use of your time you might skip this one. But if you like sitting in dark rooms, looking at moving pictures with a good story, great cinematography, acting and soundtrack, it doesn't get much better than this.

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post #36243 of 36258 Old 12-04-2016, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Yes, there are some good EQ options now but Audyssey XT32 can do an 11.2 setup without using very complicated and or expensive add-on solutions. Most if not all reports say DIRAC is the best new EQ technology and I will probably go in that direction once a single source, reasonably priced 11 channel plus solution is available. In the meantime, using Audyssey, the manual EQ in my INUKE amps and JRiver has allowed me to fine tune the sound to taste.
Arcam and Audio Control now make 7.1.4 Atmos + DTS:X receivers with Dirac.
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post #36244 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 08:09 AM
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Arcam and Audio Control now make 7.1.4 Atmos + DTS:X receivers with Dirac.
Thanks Rob, those look promising. My current Marantz can upmix Dolby and DTS HD audio using DSU so the 11 channels are always active. I think I'll hold off for the 2nd gen units as there really isn't anything that needs fixing EQ wise and I'm in no hurry to get native DTS:X capability.

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post #36245 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Thanks Rob, those look promising. My current Marantz can upmix Dolby and DTS HD audio using DSU so the 11 channels are always active. I think I'll hold off for the 2nd gen units as there really isn't anything that needs fixing EQ wise and I'm in no hurry to get native DTS:X capability.
I don't know much about those models. Do they lack DSU?

Considering the large difference in processing power between a PC, a Datasat, the DDRC88s, and these prosumer receivers, I asked Dirac about differences in the Dirac implementations. They refused comment, or even give any hints on any qualitative differences. It's against their policy.

I started looking through the Arcam thread.

This post suggests that the AVR850 has 12 channels of Dirac, but the AVR550 only has 8:
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Hmm...here Dirac is saying that the AVR850 has 96khz/24 bit support. Those are the same specs as the Datasat, but it might not measure up in other ways, like filter length.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Okay...96khz is only for stereo. I don't actually care about 96khz, as long as there is no sample rate conversion.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Hmm...separate settings for subs sounds good.
It sounds like it's actually 7.2.4, with a single EQ channel for both subs, which is much better than the dual-EQ Emotiva implementation (although they may have fixed that with firmware updates).
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Aaand...a firmware update added 7.2.4 Dirac for the AVR550. Later posts say that the preamp section is identical, and just the amp section is different (more amp channels and better quality amps w/4 ohm ratings on the AVR850).
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Got to get some work done, but the Arcam units look promising. It says a lot that they dumped ARC for Dirac in top models. I'm sure that there are benefits to avoiding v1.0, but these look workable.

Okay...I lied...it sounds like Arcam is coming out with a prepro model in 2017 with similar capabilities, called the AV860. I presume it will trade the amps for balanced outputs.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Arcam has it on their page:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,FMJ,...ssor,av860.htm

For me, I think that AV860 sounds the most appealing. I like the extra SNR and balanced outs. It would be tempting if the receiver models let you assign the amps for surrounds and heights, though. I'm not sure if that's possible.

After some reading, the internal amps aren't assignable. So, you are required to use external amplification for heights, but surrounds are covered by internal amps.

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post #36246 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I don't know much about those models. Do they lack DSU?

Considering the large difference in processing power between a PC, a Datasat, the DDRC88s, and these prosumer receivers, I asked Dirac about differences in the Dirac implementations. They refused comment, or even give any hints on any qualitative differences. It's against their policy.

I started looking through the Arcam thread.

This post suggests that the AVR850 has 12 channels of Dirac, but the AVR550 only has 8:
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Hmm...here Dirac is saying that the AVR850 has 96khz/24 bit support. Those are the same specs as the Datasat, but it might not measure up in other ways, like filter length.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Okay...96khz is only for stereo. I don't actually care about 96khz, as long as there is no sample rate conversion.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Hmm...separate settings for subs sounds good.
It sounds like it's actually 7.2.4, with a single EQ channel for both subs, which is much better than the dual-EQ Emotiva implementation (although they may have fixed that with firmware updates).
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Aaand...a firmware update added 7.2.4 Dirac for the AVR550. Later posts say that the preamp section is identical, and just the amp section is different (more amp channels and better quality amps w/4 ohm ratings on the AVR850).
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Got to get some work done, but the Arcam units look promising. It says a lot that they dumped ARC for Dirac in top models. I'm sure that there are benefits to avoiding v1.0, but these look workable.

Okay...I lied...it sounds like Arcam is coming out with a prepro model in 2017 with similar capabilities, called the AV860. I presume it will trade the amps for balanced outputs.
Arcam AVR-850 & Arcam AVR-550

Arcam has it on their page:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,FMJ,...ssor,av860.htm

For me, I think that AV860 sounds the most appealing. I like the extra SNR and balanced outs. It would be tempting if the receiver models let you assign the amps for surrounds and heights, though. I'm not sure if that's possible.

After some reading, the internal amps aren't assignable. So, you are required to use external amplification for heights, but surrounds are covered by internal amps.
I use DSU as my goto format for HT with the rare exception of a native Atmos mix. I think all of these new gen AVR's and processors are too BETA like and until they work out the bugs and allow a reasonable degree of configuration flexibility for EQ and the output channels, I'll be on the sideline watching. Thanks for all the good info and links.

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post #36247 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I use DSU as my goto format for HT with the rare exception of a native Atmos mix. I think all of these new gen AVR's and processors are too BETA like and until they work out the bugs and allow a reasonable degree of configuration flexibility for EQ and the output channels, I'll be on the sideline watching. Thanks for all the good info and links.
I've been burned by v1.0 products enough times to (usually) learn my lesson.
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post #36248 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Thanks Rob, those look promising. My current Marantz can upmix Dolby and DTS HD audio using DSU so the 11 channels are always active. I think I'll hold off for the 2nd gen units as there really isn't anything that needs fixing EQ wise and I'm in no hurry to get native DTS:X capability.
I have the Arcam AVR550 you will have to come by for a demo. It is the full version dirac on up to 7.1.4. 96/24 for multi channel and stereo and dts-x along with dolby atmos. I am currently only running a 5.1 system, but have the speakers for 5.1.4. It drives the original 212 and my S8s way past any level I would want to listen at and everything is dead quite even when i put my ears right up to the 212s.
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post #36249 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
I have the Arcam AVR550 you will have to come by for a demo. It is the full version dirac on up to 7.1.4. 96/24 for multi channel and stereo and dts-x along with dolby atmos. I am currently only running a 5.1 system, but have the speakers for 5.1.4. It drives the original 212 and my S8s way past any level I would want to listen at and everything is dead quite even when i put my ears right up to the 212s.
That would be great. I'd love to look at the Dirac GUI in person. I read that the Arcams version of Dirac will only EQ the base layer channels. Not true?

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post #36250 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 11:33 PM
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That would be great. I'd love to look at the Dirac GUI in person. I read that the Arcams version of Dirac will only EQ the base layer channels. Not true?
That Arcam thread said they both EQ all 12 channels.
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post #36251 of 36258 Old Yesterday, 11:38 PM
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That would be great. I'd love to look at the Dirac GUI in person. I read that the Arcams version of Dirac will only EQ the base layer channels. Not true?
Not true, they will do full 7.1.4 dirac calibration. They have 3 AVRs 390/550/850 and the new pre/pro 860. I only installed into my system 10 days ago, although I have had it for a month. I relocated all my equipment from a room behind my (yours previously) screen to a room behind my back wall where the projector is also installed. I did a little each day so it took some time. Still working on a finishing my newest powerhouse HTPC and installing the top ceiling speakers. And then need to convince the wife to let me install a black velvet curtain for the right side that doesn't have a wall....whew then I can watch some movies anytime. Oh yeah, got the jvc rs400 projector and the panasonic ub900 4k player along with the hdfury for some 4k fun.

Forgot to mention, a nice little bonus with the Arcams is a 5 year warranty.
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post #36252 of 36258 Old Today, 01:25 AM
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Speaking of Dirac, my interests are now peaked...

Can someone please explain quickly how dirac differs from other EQs like audyssey, etc..?

Does it really make that much of an improvement over others?

Also, how does one use the MiniDSP dirac with a 7.2.4 atmos receiver such as the new onkyo 3100?

Upon reading more, it appears that to use direct live in a setup, you need a pre/pro.. ie, something like the ONkyo 5100 pre.. and then add separate power amplifiers correct?

This changes everything... lots of things to think about in my next audio upgrade investment into Atmos...

1. But the Onkyo 3100 and be done with it..
2. Buy the Onkyo 5100 pre... add multi-channel amps that runs cool like a 7-channel Monoprice Monolith and another 4 channel amp... and minidsp direct?

Suggestions?

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post #36253 of 36258 Old Today, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Speaking of Dirac, my interests are now peaked...

Can someone please explain quickly how dirac differs from other EQs like audyssey, etc..?

Does it really make that much of an improvement over others?

Also, how does one use the MiniDSP dirac with a 7.2.4 atmos receiver such as the new onkyo 3100?

Upon reading more, it appears that to use direct live in a setup, you need a pre/pro.. ie, something like the ONkyo 5100 pre.. and then add separate power amplifiers correct?

This changes everything... lots of things to think about in my next audio upgrade investment into Atmos...

1. But the Onkyo 3100 and be done with it..
2. Buy the Onkyo 5100 pre... add multi-channel amps that runs cool like a 7-channel Monoprice Monolith and another 4 channel amp... and minidsp direct?

Suggestions?
I am very happy with Dirac. A lot of people love it, but some aren't getting the same improvement.

There are really two benefits with Dirac.
1) The biggest benefit is that it allows you to set a custom target frequency response curve with a nice iteration process. Some implementations will let you A/B different target curves which is really helpful for dialing it in (which is the point).
2) Also, Dirac uses state of the art mixed phase room correction. There are only a handful of products that can do that, such as Trinnov, Audiolense, and Acourate. This does a more effective job of optimizing the system+room impulse response, giving you more clear, detailed sound - kind of like putting on headphones.

In my experience, once you get Dirac set up right, the result sounds less processed, not more processed. In the past, I have been on the fence with room correction & EQ. It was nice for restoring tonal balance, but I felt it was at the expense of detail. This may have been my own fault, but if so, Dirac seemed to help me overcome my faults.

Before investing money in it, I'd recommend trying the free demo on the PC, first, to see if it's for you. You just need a callibrated mic, and to disable room correction (and DynamicVolume, DynamicEQ, etc.) on your receiver.
http://www.dirac.com/online-store/

The PC version only works with the PC as a source, and it doesn't support Atmos or DTS:X. For that, you either need it built in to a receiver, or you can get 1 or 2 DDRC88s.
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post #36254 of 36258 Old Today, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
Not true, they will do full 7.1.4 dirac calibration. They have 3 AVRs 390/550/850 and the new pre/pro 860. I only installed into my system 10 days ago, although I have had it for a month. I relocated all my equipment from a room behind my (yours previously) screen to a room behind my back wall where the projector is also installed. I did a little each day so it took some time. Still working on a finishing my newest powerhouse HTPC and installing the top ceiling speakers. And then need to convince the wife to let me install a black velvet curtain for the right side that doesn't have a wall....whew then I can watch some movies anytime. Oh yeah, got the jvc rs400 projector and the panasonic ub900 4k player along with the hdfury for some 4k fun.

Forgot to mention, a nice little bonus with the Arcams is a 5 year warranty.
Ok, you've got me interested. I'll send you a PM.

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post #36255 of 36258 Old Today, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Speaking of Dirac, my interests are now peaked...

Can someone please explain quickly how dirac differs from other EQs like audyssey, etc..?

Does it really make that much of an improvement over others?

Also, how does one use the MiniDSP dirac with a 7.2.4 atmos receiver such as the new onkyo 3100?

Upon reading more, it appears that to use direct live in a setup, you need a pre/pro.. ie, something like the ONkyo 5100 pre.. and then add separate power amplifiers correct?

This changes everything... lots of things to think about in my next audio upgrade investment into Atmos...

1. But the Onkyo 3100 and be done with it..
2. Buy the Onkyo 5100 pre... add multi-channel amps that runs cool like a 7-channel Monoprice Monolith and another 4 channel amp... and minidsp direct?

Suggestions?
Or you can use most AVRs as a pre/pro only by using the preouts and adding external amps and monidsp 88a. You can of course get one of the Arcams with dirac built-in and use the internal amps just like myself. If you want to use the minidsp 88A you will need to get 2 units if you have atmos/dtsx layer of speakers.

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Ok, you've got me interested. I'll send you a PM.
I am in Riverside this week for work, but will send you a pm tonight to schedule something for later.

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post #36257 of 36258 Old Today, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post
Not true, they will do full 7.1.4 dirac calibration. They have 3 AVRs 390/550/850 and the new pre/pro 860. I only installed into my system 10 days ago, although I have had it for a month. I relocated all my equipment from a room behind my (yours previously) screen to a room behind my back wall where the projector is also installed. I did a little each day so it took some time. Still working on a finishing my newest powerhouse HTPC and installing the top ceiling speakers. And then need to convince the wife to let me install a black velvet curtain for the right side that doesn't have a wall....whew then I can watch some movies anytime. Oh yeah, got the jvc rs400 projector and the panasonic ub900 4k player along with the hdfury for some 4k fun.

Forgot to mention, a nice little bonus with the Arcams is a 5 year warranty.
And the Arcam dirac implementation allows for target curve manipulation?
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post #36258 of 36258 Old Today, 11:10 AM
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The 212 HT is 2 way and the 212HTR is 3 way with a better compression driver for the high-end. This translates into better sound quality over all.
The sound quality between the 210RT and 212HTR should be pretty comparable on the high-end, but the 210RT's low end is much better.

The 212HTR was designed to be run with powerful sub for home theater as a result you really need subs for (some) 2 channel music. The 212HTR has the highest output level of any JTR speaker.
The RT, RM, and HTR have a concentric, time aligned midrange and high frequency coaxial. The benefits over a tradional 2 way is the dedicated midrange driver.

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The HTR has a better Compression driver and is actually a 3-way design.. if you want absolutely the smoothest voices, go for the HTR.. this is the new version of the one I have... The HT is basically a cheaper version of the HTR... I haven't heard the HT yet... I have auditioned literally dozens and dozens of commercial speakers, some costing 10x more than the HTRs and I have yet to find one I like better... I do not know why, but there's a magic to 'female vocals' on the 212s.. i have a feeling that it's because of the compression driver that goes down to 380hz (covering most of the female vocal cord)... But I could be wrong here... but whenever I hear these speakers with female vocals, I get chills... i never get this with any other speakers...

Although the 212s are listed as 101dB, they are actually 105dB (measured by data-base), and you'll need 8 times the power or wattage to get the 210s to the same volume
Data-Bass measures half space (on the ground) which adds several dB. Data-Bass also measured the Noesis 215RT at 100db sensitivity.

Our hearing is extremely sensitive in the 1-4khz range so having crossover points outside of the range improves the overall perception of a speaker. One thing that many people over look is the importance of imagining in width and height. While audiophile place there tweeters at ear level, home theaters should have the tweeter level at the center of the screen. If the imagine and the sound don’t come from the same location than it’s not believable. With the opposed woofers the midbass sounds like it’s coming from the same location as the mids and highs. If you have 2 way front speakers with a woofer near the floor than Dark Vader will sound like he’s at knee height.

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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I found the 210RT's better for movies than the 212's. I could tell a differnce in midbass even crossed to subs at 80hz. Each 210 and 212 was run off of the same amps. I used a bridged inuke 3000 dsp on each LCR speaker. The 210RT's replaced the 212's which are now in my living room. The 215RT's replaced the 210RT's. My 212's are now run off of a denon 4520.
This is comparing the older Noesis 212 and not the new ones.

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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Dispersion, distortion, and phase (group delay) can be major factors.

S8s and 212s have very different dispersion characteristics, although I doubt that's the issue at 80hz.

It could be phase issue, if the S8 is out of phase with your sub(s) at that frequency.

You might be running out of output at that frequency, and maybe the s8s are starting to compress.

It's also possible that the 212s have some sort of distortion at that frequency that is producing a fuller sound. For example, ringing or port noise.

There was a big thread about how everyone loved ported mid-bass-monitors. It's hard to guess, but that could be output capability, ringing, or port noise, or some combination thereof.

Another possibility is that differing room placement or phase gave different results.

Whatever the underlying reason, I got the best results in my room by crossing my older 212s at 100hz and fine tuning the response curve in Dirac. This didn't cause any localization issues with my sealed subs, although crossing above 80hz did have did have distracting localization issues with some ported subs I tried (probably port noise).

I also found that simply tuning sub gain and crossover frequency was completely inadequate for dialing in a good bass response curve. That stuff varies so much from room to room, it's a lottery what speakers will happen to have the right natural response. I don't think there's much motivation to obsess over natural response, though, now that we have such good EQ options available.
There is definitely nothing funny going on with the Noesis 212 midbass. If you look at Data-Bass, 60hz and above there was less than 4% distortion at 48.5 volts/118db/588 watts with 1.6db compression at 60hz.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...d=122&mset=134
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