Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1222 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36631 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4593nd

2 way compression driver used in 210RT/RM, 228HTR, 212HTR, 215RT/RM ( 3 way speakers)
R = Reference = 3-way
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post #36632 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
That picture does not do justice for the 4000ULF. It looks so small in this picture LOL . I bet you guys had a hell of a time getting that down in you're room Carp LOL.
Not really, Jeff got ahold of it and kind of just "flipped it" over hoping someone was on the other side of it to catch it. Good thing Jon was there.

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Originally Posted by glissaid View Post
Do you feel the 212HTR had a higher fidelity than the ht's?
Can't really comment as it seems there was some setup issues going on that caused some problems on the 212HT. I think the consensus though is the HTR is good for critical music listening, and the HT is fine if all you plan on doing is movies.

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post #36633 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I think the consensus though is the HTR is good for critical music listening, and the HT is fine if all you plan on doing is movies.
But movies have music, too!
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post #36634 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4593nd

2 way compression driver used in 210RT/RM, 228HTR, 212HTR, 215RT/RM ( 3 way speakers)
That compression driver doesn't have the modified phase plug or extra shorting rings that I believe are used on all of the Reference models.
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post #36635 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
That compression driver doesn't have the modified phase plug or extra shorting rings that I believe are used on all of the Reference models.
When I bought my 2015 212HTR I understood it to be a customized version of the same CD. It could be entirely different I've never looked inside.

Chris
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post #36636 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Can't really comment as it seems there was some setup issues going on that caused some problems on the 212HT. I think the consensus though is the HTR is good for critical music listening, and the HT is fine if all you plan on doing is movies.
We're still trying to figure out the issue with the demo system. Not all is lost since I left the Noesis 212HT in KC for members to listen too. I have another set I could ship out to the east coast. The Noesis 212HT and 228HT are great 2 way speakers that work well for movies and music. The 3 way adds almost limitless headroom because the mid range is capable of 145db (115db/1w + 1200w peak) plus the HTR is horn loaded an octave lower (350hz vz 850hz). Not that the compression driver in the Noesis 212HT is a slouch producing 139db peak (113db/1w + 450w peak). All the speakers use compression drivers made by BMS that utilize their unique annular diaphragm that doesn't suffer from the topend breakup of traditional compression drivers.

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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
That compression driver doesn't have the modified phase plug or extra shorting rings that I believe are used on all of the Reference models.
You are correct
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post #36637 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 06:48 PM
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Question Bowers & Wilkins CM10 S2 -OR- JTR Noesis 228HT

Hi all, I'm trying to decide between the Bowers & Wilkins CM10 S2 or the JTR Noesis 228HT. I've heard great things about both.

Because I work for a large national electronics retailer I can get the B&W CM10's for a significant discount, meaning they'd actually cost me less than the JTR 228's. Bottom line, factoring in tax (for B&W) vs shipping (for JTR), a pair of B&W's would be cheaper by about $200.

Given that this is the JTR thread I'm expecting most folks to favor the JTRs and that's fine but if you were making an honest and unbiased recommendation for a friend, which would you recommend?

Usage will be 95% home theater & Xbox. The speakers will be powered by a fairly beefy Bryston 9B-THX power amp that I already have.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

Last edited by Justin Morgan; 02-22-2017 at 06:56 PM.
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post #36638 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post
Hi all, I'm trying to decide between the Bowers & Wilkins CM10 S2 or the JTR Noesis 228HT. I've heard great things about both.

Because I work for a large national electronics retailer I can get the B&W CM10's for a significant discount, meaning they'd actually cost me less than the JTR 228's. Bottom line, factoring in tax (for B&W) vs shipping (for JTR), a pair of B&W's would be cheaper by about $200.

Given that this is the JTR thread I'm expecting most folks to favor the JTRs and that's fine but if you were making an honest and unbiased recommendation for a friend, which would you recommend?

Usage will be 95% home theater & Xbox.

Thanks in advance for your insight.
CM10 is much nicer looking and has lower frequency extension, if you aren't going to use a sub.

228 is much more efficient, much more power handling, much better dynamics, and more controlled directivity. It is designed to be used with subs, though.

Which characteristics are you looking for?
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post #36639 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
CM10 is much nicer looking and has lower frequency extension, if you aren't going to use a sub.

228 is much more efficient, much more power handling, much better dynamics, and more controlled directivity. It is designed to be used with subs, though.
Whups, I forgot to mention a few important details...

The speakers will be paired with my two SVS SB13-Ultra subs. The current system is 7.2. My Denon AVR-X4000 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT32.

The room size is 18' long x 13' wide x 7.5' high. There is are two rows of 3-chair seating, with the back row on a 13" riser.

There is a ceiling-mounted Epson 6030 projector.

No room treatments yet (that's still on the to-do list).

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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Which characteristics are you looking for?
Basically I'm looking for accurate sound that has a large "sweet spot" across the two rows of seats. Since this will be almost entirely used for HT, clear dialog reproduction is very important.

We usually keep the speakers at THX reference level (calibrated via SPL meter), although I tend to run the subs a little "hot", as well as the surrounds.

Many thanks for your thoughts / opinions.

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post #36640 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post
Whups, I forgot to mention a few important details...

The speakers will be paired with my two SVS SB13-Ultra subs. The current system is 7.2. My Denon AVR-X4000 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT32.

The room size is 18' long x 13' wide x 7.5' high. There is are two rows of 3-chair seating, with the back row on a 13" riser.

There is a ceiling-mounted Epson 6030 projector.

No room treatments yet (that's still on the to-do list).



Basically I'm looking for accurate sound that has good dispersion across the two rows of seats. Since this will be almost entirely used for HT, clear dialog reproduction is very important.

Many thanks for your thoughts / opinions.
Okay, using subs is good.
The JTR speakers excel at dialog clarity. That will definitely be better than the B&Ws.
They have a narrow-ish 60 degree dispersion angle, which could potentially be a concern for the side seats in a small room, depending on your layout and speaker distances.
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post #36641 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Okay, using subs is good.
The JTR speakers excel at dialog clarity. That will definitely be better than the B&Ws.
They have a narrow-ish 60 degree dispersion angle, which could potentially be a concern for the side seats in a small room, depending on your layout and speaker distances.
Thanks rcohen.

With the right amount of toe-in I think the JTRs would have enough of a sweet spot for all the seats. Hopefully.

Now that I think of it, if I went with the high-efficiency JTR's I could sell my amp and drive all the speakers directly from the Denon AVR. The room isn't that big so the receiver should be able to drive the JTRs to reference level and beyond, right?

That might be just the ticket! (The proceeds from selling the amp mean the JTRs would actually cost less than the B&W's.)
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post #36642 of 36657 Old 02-22-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post
Thanks rcohen.

With the right amount of toe-in I think the JTRs would have enough of a sweet spot for all the seats. Hopefully.

Now that I think of it, if I went with the high-efficiency JTR's I could sell my amp and drive all the speakers directly from the Denon AVR. The room isn't that big so the receiver should be able to drive the JTRs to reference level and beyond, right?

That might be just the ticket! (The proceeds from selling the amp mean the JTRs would actually cost less than the B&W's.)
You're probably right. You could also get the 228s first, try them both ways, and then make a decision about the amp.
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post #36643 of 36657 Old 02-23-2017, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Morgan View Post

Now that I think of it, if I went with the high-efficiency JTR's I could sell my amp and drive all the speakers directly from the Denon AVR. The room isn't that big so the receiver should be able to drive the JTRs to reference level and beyond, right?

Easily. I really don't think you will find much of a difference using the amp vs. the Denon receiver. I powered 228HTs in the past with just my Denon 4311ci and they could go much, much louder than my ears could take. Even in a very large room I think you would be shocked at how loud your Denon can play the 228HTs. And of course I would say go with the 228HTs over the B&Ws! I recently sold my 228HTs but can attest to what has been previously said. Great dynamics, excellent vocal clarity for movie dialogue, and kick ass for both movies and music.
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post #36644 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 09:10 AM
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CONSIDERING UPGRADE:

I would like to upgrade my system with an acoustically transparent screen and get my front soundstage off the floor. I currently have a system I am quite happy with. I have the flagship full range Definitive BP 7000 SC's that are capable of handling up to 1000 watts and have a 91 db sensitivity. They just take up a lot of floor space and because they are large bi-polar towers that require a couple of feet of room behind them, they will not fit behind my hypothetical AT screen. I will have up to about 21" behind the screen to work with.

Considering switching over to JTR 212 HTR's LCR or JTR 215 RM's (not towers) LCR. My amplifier is a Sunfire TGA 7401 which can provide 400 watts into 8 ohms and 800 watts into 4 ohms. I also have quad Deepseasound Mariana 24" subs so no issues in that department . The option of running without subs for full range is nice. Would the Sunfire be enough to power the 215's full range? When compared to the 212 HTR, does the larger physical horn of the 215 make a difference with respect to soundstage and imaging? And finally, could I squeeze the 215's behind the AT screen? What is the minimum about of space I should have to fit these either model behind an AT screen? I see the dimensions on Jeff's website but I am also considering speaker binding posts and the actual speakers blowing the screen like a tornado. I do have a couple inches of flexibility with respect to depth.

Rationally, and from a space perspective the 212 HTR's would probably be fine from what I have seen on the threads. I just don't want to be second guessing and re-upgrading so I guess I am looking for excuses to just get the 215 monitors and be done. Really appreciate all of your insights. Thanks.
One note on this regarding placing the 215RT behind a projection screen. My room is asymmetrical and I have a alcove in the front of the room not centered in the room that is the home for the LCR's. Due to toe in the 138" diagonal screen frame is literally touching the outside edge of the L&R speakers. I had a forum member over for a demo this week and to properly demo the bass capability of the 215RT's, I of course used higher than usual SPL. Right off the bat during the ATMOS demo disk Amaze Trailer Amazing Bass segment we heard an odd noise along with the "powerful bass" scene. It was a sort of popping sound that I had heard on a couple of occasions recently. The same thing happened during the Art of Flight Alaska scene. It seemed to be volume dependant and as my guest was eager to get to the bottom of this odd sound he helped me remove the AT screen to see if I had a blown driver or ?

The drivers seemed fine, the travel was smooth and no unusual noise there so we played the offending scene without screen and even with max driver excursion, there were no issues ...

Then I remembered changing the projection lamp several weeks ago and moving the screen several inches to the left to help with a slight keystone effect. That made the outside edge of the screen frame even with the outside edge of the speaker and unknown to me, the inside screen frame edge was slightly covering the right speakers 15" bass driver surrounds. The sound we were hearing was the bass driver surrounds impacting the screen frame during heavy excursion.

We put the screen back up with the driver surround inboard of the screen frame and of course no problems. I used the horizontal lens shift to center the screen image and all was fine. This is probably a story that isn't applicable to anyone else as I'm sure most here would be smart enough to not position the screen frame to overlap the drivers but my mindless screen adjustment created that mystery.

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post #36645 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM
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@RMK! now that must of been quite the excursion! I hate that feeling of dread when the system doesn't quite sound right and you have to diagnose. Glad it was a simple fix! Still trying to sell my definitive speakers then will be making a decision on upgrading. If I get to sell them I am currently between the JTR 212 HTR's that you recommended or JBL 4722N. Really appreciate you always being willing to share your expertise and experiences.
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post #36646 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post
@RMK! now that must of been quite the excursion! I hate that feeling of dread when the system doesn't quite sound right and you have to diagnose. Glad it was a simple fix! Still trying to sell my definitive speakers then will be making a decision on upgrading. If I get to sell them I am currently between the JTR 212 HTR's that you recommended or JBL 4722N. Really appreciate you always being willing to share your expertise and experiences.
The Noesis 212HT and the 4722N are both 2 way speakers however the Noesis 212HT uses a compression driver with a unique annual diaphragm that doesn't suffer from high frequency breakup of traditional compression drivers. When the Noesis 212HT's horn is at ear height than both woofers and the horn are perfectly time aligned plus this provides uniform image height. Because of the woofer configuration of the 4722N lower tone sounds will appear to come from knee level (between the two woofers) while high tone sounds will come for the horn height. The Noesis 212HT is made from extremely high quality, 1" thick baltic birch plywood, uses audiophile grade crossover components, and neodymium woofers. Data-Bass tested the Noesis 212 and it produced 5th loudest of all time at 125hz, matched the 4000ULF in peak output at 63.5hz, had less than 5% distortion in it's passband at it's maximum longterm output, and produced extremely well impulse, spectrogram and waterfall response.

The HTR is at a whole other level with the coaxial compression driver that goes an octave lower and capable if 145db.
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post #36647 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post
@RMK! now that must of been quite the excursion! I hate that feeling of dread when the system doesn't quite sound right and you have to diagnose. Glad it was a simple fix! Still trying to sell my definitive speakers then will be making a decision on upgrading. If I get to sell them I am currently between the JTR 212 HTR's that you recommended or JBL 4722N. Really appreciate you always being willing to share your expertise and experiences.
I think toe-in is helpful in getting the best audio image with most speakers. I've always used some toe-in and the depth of the 215RT, and my limited space behind the screen makes it a little tight. The 212's are fairly shallow so probably no issues there. Seems a lot of folks just square up the JBL's but I suppose that due to their being so wide. I would think they would be susceptible to the same phenomena and require some toe-in for the best imaging but that's only an issue with 2 channel and I'm guessing most aren't using JBL's for 2 channel listening.

I know there is a lot of noise around the JBL's now with home handy men swapping out the HF drivers (yet, no change in the crossover ) and claiming marked improvement in sound quality when they claimed the originals sounded so good. It's a group think mentality that is all to prevalent around here. I've heard the much vaunted M2's and thought they were very good speakers but they require the Crown amps and are a bit of a load to setup properly. That fact, and the tepid comments of the music professionals (two professional sound engineers) who demoed them for me gave me pause. Bottom line is the net gains were IMHO, minimal.

Oh well, to each his own.

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post #36648 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The Noesis 212HT and the 4722N are both 2 way speakers however the Noesis 212HT uses a compression driver with a unique annual diaphragm that doesn't suffer from high frequency breakup of traditional compression drivers. When the Noesis 212HT's horn is at ear height than both woofers and the horn are perfectly aligned plus this provides uniform image height. Because of the woofer configuration of the 4722N lower tone sounds will appear to come from knee level (between the two woofers) while high tone sounds will come for the horn height. The Noesis 212HT is made from extremely high quality, 1" thick baltic birch plywood, uses audiophile grade crossover components, and neodymium woofers. Data-Bass tested the Noesis 212 and it produced 5th loudest of all time at 125hz, matched the 4000ULF in peak output at 63.5hz, had less than 5% distortion in it's passband at it's maximum longterm output, and produced extremely well impulse, spectrogram and waterfall response.

The HTR is at a whole other level with the coaxial compression driver that goes an octave lower and capable if 145db.
Jeff - thanks for this...I do not dispute there are distinct differences in each of the speaker's quality and performance. Certainly did not mean to insinuate equality. There are reasons for each product having different price points. I should have clarified in the last post - the determining factor will be the $$funds$$ I am able to put together.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The Noesis 212HT and the 4722N are both 2 way speakers however the Noesis 212HT uses a compression driver with a unique annual diaphragm that doesn't suffer from high frequency breakup of traditional compression drivers. When the Noesis 212HT's horn is at ear height than both woofers and the horn are perfectly aligned plus this provides uniform image height. Because of the woofer configuration of the 4722N lower tone sounds will appear to come from knee level (between the two woofers) while high tone sounds will come for the horn height. The Noesis 212HT is made from extremely high quality, 1" thick baltic birch plywood, uses audiophile grade crossover components, and neodymium woofers. Data-Bass tested the Noesis 212 and it produced 5th loudest of all time at 125hz, matched the 4000ULF in peak output at 63.5hz, had less than 5% distortion in it's passband at it's maximum longterm output, and produced extremely well impulse, spectrogram and waterfall response.

The HTR is at a whole other level with the coaxial compression driver that goes an octave lower and capable if 145db.

+1 on the 4722N. The point at which the 4722 starts to act as a point source doesn't start until AT LEAST 12 feet due to the overall size of the driver surfaces edge to edge, which on the 4722 is about 4 feet. The point at which a speaker of this size would act as a point source is 3x to 10x that amount (or so I am told). Basically, in a commercial theater setting you'd be seated at an appropriate distance from these speakers, but they may not work as well in a home setting where you'd typically be sitting much closer to the speakers. Unless your room is absolutely huge. Jeff knows a hell of a lot more than me, so feel free to correct me or elaborate if you want to.

And as far as the HTR.... That is incredible. Have you ever thought about using some sort of active crossover/DSP for your speakers?

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post #36650 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post
Jeff - thanks for this...I do not dispute there are distinct differences in each of the speaker's quality and performance. Certainly did not mean to insinuate equality. There are reasons for each product having different price points. I should have clarified in the last post - the determining factor will be the $$funds$$ I am able to put together.
It seems like people forget about the Noesis 212HT which is an extremely capable speaker that costs much less than the HTR.
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post #36651 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
It seems like people forget about the Noesis 212HT which is an extremely capable speaker that costs much less than the HTR.
Just a helpful thought. You have a lot of great products, but it can be a bit overwhelming for someone to see the differences at a glance. Especially with the similarities in your naming convention.

Have you thought about maybe reorganizing, if not your products, their names and your website so people can quickly determine the differ by tiers and what they get by jumping up or down between them? Something along the lines of a good/better/best scenario with the associated products put together in each tier, a la Noesis 212 HT's, Slanted 8's and a Captivator 118 are the first tier. Step up would be the 212HTR's an a Captivator 1400/218/S1. Highest tier the 215RT's/228HT's/Cap 2400/4000/S2.

It may help and require a minimum amount of work with zero actual product changes.
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post #36652 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM
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Here is a simple breakdown

S-8 series
Surround/Atmos coaxial speaker with 4 cabinet configurations

HT = Home Theater LP = Low Profile

Single 8HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/single-8ht/
Single 8HT-LP http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/single-8ht-lp
Slanted 8HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/slanted-8/
Slanted 8HT-LP http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/slanted-8ht-lp/


HT = Home Theater (2 way ported monitor)

228HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-228ht/
212HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/


HTR = Home Theater Reference (3 way ported monitor)

228HTR http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-228htr/
212HTR http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212htr/


RM = Reference Monitor
Sealed speaker meant to compliment RT series

210RM http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-210rm/
215RM http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-215rm/

* 215RM can be used Full range


RT = Reference Tower (Full range)

210RT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-210rt/
215RT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-215rt/


* All Reference speakers have the same coaxial compression driver w/ phase plug
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...1&forum=104675

Chris

Last edited by countryWV; Today at 01:19 AM.
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post #36653 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
+1 on the 4722N. The point at which the 4722 starts to act as a point source doesn't start until AT LEAST 12 feet
I spoke to the VP of JBL Cinema and the 4722 will image within 6 feet. His words, not mine but my room and experience aligns with his statement.

Last edited by Molon_Labe; Yesterday at 10:03 PM.
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post #36654 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Here is a simple breakdown

S-8 series
Surround/Atmos coaxial speaker with 4 cabinet configurations

HT = home theater LP = low profile

Single 8HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/single-8ht/
Single 8HT-LP http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/single-8ht-lp
Slanted 8HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/slanted-8/
Slanted 8HT-LP http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/slanted-8ht-lp/


HT = home theater (2 way ported monitor)

228HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-228ht/
212HT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/


HTR = Home Theater Reference (3 way ported monitor)

228HTR http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-228htr/
212HTR http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212htr/


RM = Reference Monitor
Sealed speaker meant to compliment RT series

210RM http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-210rm/
215RM http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-215rm/
* 215RM can be used Full range


RT = Reference Tower (Full range)

210RT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-210rt/
215RT http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-215rt/


*All Reference speakers have the same coaxial compression driver w/ phase plug
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...1&forum=104675
This should be on post#1
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post #36655 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I know there is a lot of noise around the JBL's now with home handy men swapping out the HF drivers (yet, no change in the crossover ) and claiming marked improvement in sound quality when they claimed the originals sounded so good. It's a group think mentality that is all to prevalent around here. I've heard the much vaunted M2's and thought they were very good speakers but they require the Crown amps and are a bit of a load to setup properly. That fact, and the tepid comments of the music professionals (two professional sound engineers) who demoed them for me gave me pause. Bottom line is the net gains were IMHO, minimal.

Oh well, to each his own.
Maybe you should review the large amounts of measurements that were posted re: different CDs on the 4722 before posting about something you obviously haven't heard and are unfamiliar with. There's no need to change anything in the crossover. It actually improves the frequency response, reduces distortion, and removes ringing issues. It's not like these are even difficult to run active. Clearly everyone that loves the swap is wrong and just drinking the group think koolaid.

As for setting up M2s, you plug them in and load the tuning files that JBL publishes. It's not exactly difficult and shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.

That said, not going to continue posting in this thread as it's not the place, someone just asked me to reply to this nonsense :/
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post #36656 of 36657 Old Yesterday, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
This should be on post#1
And on the jtrspeakers.com home page.
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post #36657 of 36657 Old Today, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I know there is a lot of noise around the JBL's now with home handy men swapping out the HF drivers
And that Allen wrench and four screws counts as handy man For real though the 2453H-SL cd is a noticeable difference from the stock 2432H cd. Data backs it up...

BTW I will be moving to Redding CA in 6 months give or take. Can always bring some 4722's W/2453H-SL cd to next west coast GTG...

I still have a personal hunch I would like the BMS 4593 a tad better...

Last edited by jlpowell84; Today at 02:59 AM.
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