Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1223 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36661 of 36686 Old Today, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
Every time I've heard them in a home theater male vocals seemed to come from the bottom of the screen while female vocals seems to come from the middle of the screen which was very distracting for me.
I sit 16' back from my front 3. My rear and sides surrounds are 4722's and are 8' and 10' from me, but there are rarely, if any, voices coming out of those for me to validate your findings. I personally wouldn't want to be less than 10 feet a front stage of 4722s.

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post #36662 of 36686 Old Today, 07:30 AM
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And that Allen wrench and four screws counts as handy man For real though the 2453H-SL cd is a noticeable difference from the stock 2432H cd. Data backs it up...

BTW I will be moving to Redding CA in 6 months give or take. Can always bring some 4722's W/2453H-SL cd to next west coast GTG...

I still have a personal hunch I would like the BMS 4593 a tad better...
The ring radiator design of BMS is extremely efficient and doesn't suffer from high frequency breakup as large dome compression drivers do. I was really hoping for a side by side comparison in KC last weekend however we had troubles with the system and ended up mainly playing with the subwoofers.

Stepping up to the coaxial compression driver means horn loading another octave lower plus adds what seems like limitless headroom.

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post #36663 of 36686 Old Today, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I sit 16' back from my front 3. My rear and sides surrounds are 4722's and are 8' and 10' from me, but there are rarely, if any, voices coming out of those for me to validate your findings. I personally wouldn't want to be less than 10 feet a front stage of 4722s.
It's physics. You have the lower 15" woofer playing up to 800hz that is a couple feet below the center of the horn.
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post #36664 of 36686 Old Today, 08:06 AM
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I haven't heard the JTR's but I did hear the M2's. The M2's were the best sounding speakers I've ever heard. Without getting into detail about the M2's, I to am curious how other offerings would benefit from active crossovers,DSP etc. If I had to guess, Jeff didn't go that route to keep things simple. Basically plug and play. Mark has all the DSP/active crossover magic built into his Cats since he went the powered route. It keeps things relatively simple, although it does make implementation a little more difficult since each speaker needs to be plugged in. Basically if you want active or don't mind active, the Cat 12C's are there for consideration. If passive is what you want, you got the JTR's. That's were the M2 benefits IMHO. No amps or anything in the speakers, but still has DSP and active crossovers built into the amps OR external processor. Maybe in the future, speakers will be shipping with external processors with these settings built into them. Just adds one more piece into the chain of electronics so it shouldn't complicate things too much.
All else being equal, active has the advantage over passive, so I agree that's a big point in favor of the M2s and Cat12s (which I also haven't heard.)

JTR crossovers are the size of phonebooks, though. With some help from some good DSP, I wonder if that mostly closes the gap. I know it sounds good to me.

One thing that surprised me at the Kansas City Crawl was that none of the JTR speakers there sounded nearly as nice as mine do to me. No offense intended in that. I can't touch the bass I heard (sadly), but it left me scratching my head. It sounded like a more peaky response and in some cases it sounded more harsh to me. The closest was dlbeck's theater, which sounded smooth and neutral, but lacked the intoxicating quality that I'm getting.

Interestingly, when we listened to his Salks with RAAL tweeters in his music setup upstairs, there was that intoxicating treble. My reaction was, "That's what my 212 treble sounds like!"

Looking at the measured frequency response in most of these theaters, I can see that I wasn't imagining the peaky aspects to the sound.

I want to make sure I don't lose that intoxicating sound when I finish out my theater, so I'm trying to figure out what the deal is. My theories:

1) I spent a lot of time dialing in the target curve with Dirac to my taste. Maybe I tuned it to sound good to me, and the other theaters were tuned to sound good to their owners.
2) Maybe Dirac just does a better job correcting the frequency response then whatever those theaters are using.
3) It could be at least partially an amp thing. I know that is a questionable claim, but I really enjoy the pairing of the JTRs with my Parasound A51 amp over the other amps I tried with it. It seems to make the treble more pleasing. This difference is more subtle, and I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there ya go.
4) Maybe it's because I have a larger, more reflective room, and the intoxicating sound is from more lively reflections. Dlbeck's Salks were in his living room, not his heavily treated theater.
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post #36665 of 36686 Old Today, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
All else being equal, active has the advantage over passive, so I agree that's a big point in favor of the M2s and Cat12s (which I also haven't heard.)

JTR crossovers are the size of phonebooks, though. With some help from some good DSP, I wonder if that mostly closes the gap. I know it sounds good to me.

One thing that surprised me at the Kansas City Crawl was that none of the JTR speakers there sounded nearly as nice as mine do to me. No offense intended in that. I can't touch the bass I heard (sadly), but it left me scratching my head. It sounded like a more peaky response and in some cases it sounded more harsh to me. The closest was dlbeck's theater, which sounded smooth and neutral, but lacked the intoxicating quality that I'm getting.

Interestingly, when we listened to his Salks with RAAL tweeters in his music setup upstairs, there was that intoxicating treble. My reaction was, "That's what my 212 treble sounds like!"

Looking at the measured frequency response in most of these theaters, I can see that I wasn't imagining the peaky aspects to the sound.

I want to make sure I don't lose that intoxicating sound when I finish out my theater, so I'm trying to figure out what the deal is. My theories:

1) I spent a lot of time dialing in the target curve with Dirac to my taste. Maybe I tuned it to sound good to me, and the other theaters were tuned to sound good to their owners.
2) Maybe Dirac just does a better job correcting the frequency response then whatever those theaters are using.
3) It could be at least partially an amp thing. I know that is a questionable claim, but I really enjoy the pairing of the JTRs with my Parasound A51 amp over the other amps I tried with it. It seems to make the treble more pleasing. This difference is more subtle, and I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there ya go.
4) Maybe it's because I have a larger, more reflective room, and the intoxicating sound is from more lively reflections. Dlbeck's Salks were in his living room, not his heavily treated theater.
I'm sure active DSP would close the gap. Even though from what I've been reading on here, the gap may not be that big. I think what you experienced at the Kansas City Crawl was the effect of all the variables with passive speakers. With active DSP, the maker of the speaker has more control over the performance you will get and is able to maintain more consistency. This is one of the reasons Mark went powered with the design of his Cat 12C's. It eliminates some of the variables. Just add a good signal, let the active DSP do it's thing, maybe a little room tweaking here and there as well as playing with placement, perhaps some room treatment and you're good.

I think the sound you're getting and loving in your system is due to a combination of your gear and Dirac allowing you to dial things in appropriately and to your liking.

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post #36666 of 36686 Old Today, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post
I'm sure active DSP would close the gap. Even though from what I've been reading on here, the gap may not be that big. I think what you experienced at the Kansas City Crawl was the effect of all the variables with passive speakers. With active DSP, the maker of the speaker has more control over the performance you will get and is able to maintain more consistency. This is one of the reasons Mark went powered with the design of his Cat 12C's. It eliminates some of the variables. Just add a good signal, let the active DSP do it's thing, maybe a little room tweaking here and there as well as playing with placement, perhaps some room treatment and you're good.

I think the sound you're getting and loving in your system is due to a combination of your gear and Dirac allowing you to dial things in appropriately and to your liking.
It could, of course, be a blend of factors.

Also, I think I need to plan for nearfield subs. Wow, those were cool.
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post #36667 of 36686 Old Today, 08:41 AM
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IMO the differences between any of the JTR's or JBL 4722's will be more affected by room placement and the room itself than the differences in the speakers themselves.

This explains what I mean. Good luck following what I am saying with the part about my 2 channel "cheat". It makes sense to me but if I were reading someone else explain this for the first time my reaction would be

I posted this elsewhere:

It's not close for 2 channel sitting in the sweet spot when it comes to soundstage and imaging. Having the 212's setup a few feet from the front wall with the insulation behind them is better for 2 channel than using just the L and R 4722n's sitting in their position behind the screen.

So, it's all about the position of the speakers. The soundstage has so much more depth with the 212's in their position. 3D holographic type stuff that is really cool, and just doesn't happen with speakers up against the wall. Putting in 1.5 feet of insulation behind the screen really improves 2 channel - but the catch is it makes a much bigger difference with the soundstage if speakers are out in front, not as much with the speakers on the front wall.

If I switched the position of the speakers (212's behind the screen and 4722's out in front) then again, it wouldn't be close - this time in favor of the 4722n's.

I don't think I've ever heard a speaker I like quite as much as the 4722n with the upgraded CD. However... it's very close with the high end JTR's like the 215's I used to have. Close enough that I still think my original plan is a good one. There is no way I can use another pair of 4722n's for 2 channel music. I don't have the room out in front of my screen. The JTR 210 RT's would be perfect for this. I would have them setup in front of the screen so that they don't block anything when watching 16:9 content and then when it's 2:35:1 movie time I could just easily movie them over to the side. Best of both worlds.


I have found a good "cheat" to tide me over until I can spend more money. I have found that using DSU for music and turning off all the surround speakers except for my front set of side surrounds (I have 2 sets of side surrounds) it makes "2 channel" music sound great. Opens up the soundstage, wraps around my head, etc. and does 95 percent of what I get with having an optimal 2 channel music listening position for the mains.

So, it's just the LRC and 2 side surrounds placed at 70 degrees from my MLP with the surrounds playing 3 db's low (with the other set of side surrounds turned on for movies which are also 3 db's low the 2 sets of side surrounds playing together add up to level matched with the other speakers... if that makes sense). I wanted to show this to Scott and others at the KC crawl but somehow never got the time.





My room isn't the first time that I noticed that 2 channel music sounded so much better with the speakers way further out from the front wall so I'm starting to think there is just no way around that. If the HT's had been set up right at my place for the crawl and we did a 2 channel comparison it would have been a landslide for people sitting in the sweet spot in favor of the 212's. If we switched the speakers the landslide would have gone the other way in favor of the 4722n's.

Jeff, I remember you posting a while back about the male vocals being low on the 4722 n's. Something about Darth Vader's voice coming from knee height. I tried it out back then but I didn't hear the male voice coming from down low even though I was listening for it. It could be just me though, for sure.

BTW, I've listened quite a bit to the 212's the last few days and every time I do it becomes even more obvious that these are not the speakers we heard last Sunday. @rcohen I would be surprised if you thought that these HT's have even a hint of harshness! They sound fantastic! Night and day from last week.
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@carp , I wonder if a baffle wall is the way to get you get the best of both.
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post #36669 of 36686 Old Today, 08:55 AM
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@carp , I wonder if a baffle wall is the way to get you get the best of both.
I basically have a baffle wall now, made of insulation. Archaea has a baffle wall and has had it for a long time now. I remember hearing 2 channel for the first time with his baffle wall... me no likey. His room sounds amazing for movies though, so between his room and my room I have come to the conclusion that a baffle wall is better for movies but worse for 2 channel music - for my ears that is.

@Archaea


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post #36670 of 36686 Old Today, 08:59 AM
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Jeff, I remember you posting a while back about the male vocals being low on the 4722 n's. Something about Darth Vader's voice coming from knee height. I tried it out back then but I didn't hear the male voice coming from down low even though I was listening for it. It could be just me though, for sure.




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I basically have a baffle wall now, made of insulation. Archaea has a baffle wall and has had it for a long time now. I remember hearing 2 channel for the first time with his baffle wall... me no likey. His room sounds amazing for movies though, so between his room and my room I have come to the conclusion that a baffle wall is better for movies but worse for 2 channel music - for my ears that is.

@Archaea
Wow, look at that!

One nice thing about your fluffy wall is that it's easier to swap out speakers.
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post #36672 of 36686 Old Today, 09:33 AM
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And that Allen wrench and four screws counts as handy man For real though the 2453H-SL cd is a noticeable difference from the stock 2432H cd. Data backs it up...

BTW I will be moving to Redding CA in 6 months give or take. Can always bring some 4722's W/2453H-SL cd to next west coast GTG...

I still have a personal hunch I would like the BMS 4593 a tad better...
Really sorry I opened this can of worms ...

It's not the number of screws nor the effort involved. It is unilaterally using a different CD with a speaker not designed to use that CD. Why not just swap out the JTR HTR CD for the HT model? Oh thats right, it has different performance characteristics that need to be considered in the Xover. If Harmons engineering is that loosie goosie that CD swapping is just fine with them, then that says something to me. The devil is in the details and this home remedy seems like a ready fire aim solution to HF harshness not to mention invalidating any warranty.


Re the M2, I flew 500 miles (Hollywood) to hear them at two dealer locations. Both demos were setup by professional sound guys (one had two Emmy awards on this desk) and they sounded great. Not being JBL guys nor sales people they also mentioned that there were monitors that they preferred but that the M2 was "a more commercially viable speaker that could be used in the home". When I pushed them loud the bass was less than I had become accustomed to with the 215RT's. They may have been a touch cleaner in the HF range but it was IMHO, a very small delta. Turns out, sound quality and appreciation are subjective and opinions are like a$$ holes.

That said, a GTG sounds like a good plan JP. Let's touch base on the logistics when you've settled in and get a date on the books.

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post #36673 of 36686 Old Today, 09:42 AM
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I basically have a baffle wall now, made of insulation. Archaea has a baffle wall and has had it for a long time now. I remember hearing 2 channel for the first time with his baffle wall... me no likey. His room sounds amazing for movies though, so between his room and my room I have come to the conclusion that a baffle wall is better for movies but worse for 2 channel music - for my ears that is.

@Archaea



I have a baffle wall and I prefer most every speaker I've heard out of the baffle wall rather than in the baffle wall when comparing 2 channel stereo.

The only speaker that didn't seem to be negatively affected by the baffle wall (in my room) for two channel was a small MTM SVS speaker with 5.25" drivers and a soft dome tweeter that we compared one time in a speaker shootout. Yes the -3dB point moves about 30hz down with the baffle wall. Yes I love it for cinema with my AT screen, but I agree with carp, two channel is better/more familiar outside the baffle wall IMO too.

FWIW, (since it's on topic right now) I prefer the 215RT and his old < 2014 JTR 212HT over the JBL 4722n with the upgraded cds in Sheldon's room. Speaker preferences are subjective. Thats one thing I've learned good and well in this hobby. Doesn't matter what the next guy thinks - stick with what you personally enjoy.
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post #36674 of 36686 Old Today, 10:13 AM
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All else being equal, active has the advantage over passive, so I agree that's a big point in favor of the M2s and Cat12s (which I also haven't heard.)

JTR crossovers are the size of phonebooks, though. With some help from some good DSP, I wonder if that mostly closes the gap. I know it sounds good to me.

One thing that surprised me at the Kansas City Crawl was that none of the JTR speakers there sounded nearly as nice as mine do to me. No offense intended in that. I can't touch the bass I heard (sadly), but it left me scratching my head. It sounded like a more peaky response and in some cases it sounded more harsh to me. The closest was dlbeck's theater, which sounded smooth and neutral, but lacked the intoxicating quality that I'm getting.

Interestingly, when we listened to his Salks with RAAL tweeters in his music setup upstairs, there was that intoxicating treble. My reaction was, "That's what my 212 treble sounds like!"

Looking at the measured frequency response in most of these theaters, I can see that I wasn't imagining the peaky aspects to the sound.

I want to make sure I don't lose that intoxicating sound when I finish out my theater, so I'm trying to figure out what the deal is. My theories:

1) I spent a lot of time dialing in the target curve with Dirac to my taste. Maybe I tuned it to sound good to me, and the other theaters were tuned to sound good to their owners.
2) Maybe Dirac just does a better job correcting the frequency response then whatever those theaters are using.
3) It could be at least partially an amp thing. I know that is a questionable claim, but I really enjoy the pairing of the JTRs with my Parasound A51 amp over the other amps I tried with it. It seems to make the treble more pleasing. This difference is more subtle, and I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there ya go.
4) Maybe it's because I have a larger, more reflective room, and the intoxicating sound is from more lively reflections. Dlbeck's Salks were in his living room, not his heavily treated theater.
I think item 4 above is very relevant. I always tell people who visit my HT that I preferred certain live sound music (mostly Rock and Roll) in a more reflective space than my treated non-reflective HT room. Conversely, I prefer movies and movie sound (including music) in the HT room. "Lively reflections" may be the reason ... Ideally, I would have 2 different rooms but knowing me, I would seldom if ever use a dedicated music room.

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post #36675 of 36686 Old Today, 10:40 AM
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Re the M2, I flew 500 miles (Hollywood) to hear them at two dealer locations. Both demos were setup by professional sound guys (one had two Emmy awards on this desk) and they sounded great. Not being JBL guys nor sales people they also mentioned that there were monitors that they preferred but that the M2 was "a more commercially viable speaker that could be used in the home".
Just out of curiosity, which monitors did they prefer?

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Just out of curiosity, which monitors did they prefer?
I don't recall the brand names (it was a couple of years ago) but they called the M2's affordable so I guess it's all relative. I still get occasional emails from the guy with the Emmys (he was a very cool, low key person) and could contact him and ask if you're really interested.

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I don't recall the brand names (it was a couple of years ago) but they called the M2's affordable so I guess it's all relative. I still get occasional emails from the guy with the Emmys (he was a very cool, low key person) and could contact him and ask if you're really interested.
Wow, the M2's are "affordable." That really is something. If it's not any trouble and he happens to e-mail you, sure. I'm very curious what they prefer to the M2's and what makes the M2's an "affordable" alternative. Don't go out of your way though, just if you happen to be e-mailing him.

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It's physics. You have the lower 15" woofer playing up to 800hz that is a couple feet below the center of the horn.
So your saying your speaker is superior to the M2 with it's 800hz cross over a 15" woofer?
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So your saying your speaker is superior to the M2 with it's 800hz cross over a 15" woofer?
I don't think this is really appropriate for this thread. The M2 has a higher acoustical center point than the 4722 as well. At my listening distance (12-13ft), I've never noticed any localization issues with voices coming from lower. If you were closer, It could be an issue.
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post #36680 of 36686 Old Today, 11:31 AM
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Wow, the M2's are "affordable." That really is something. If it's not any trouble and he happens to e-mail you, sure. I'm very curious what they prefer to the M2's and what makes the M2's an "affordable" alternative. Don't go out of your way though, just if you happen to be e-mailing him.
Just pinged one of the companies that gave me an M2 demo and I'll let you know (via PM) if I hear back.

The other demo was at the mothership Guitar Center store in Hollywood. That is huge store with nice demo rooms and was like a Rock and Roller's Nirvana. Those guys were the most open about discussing other products but I was there specifically for the M2 so didn't pay much attention to the comments about other more expensive monitors. They ended up contacting me a couple of weeks later about a music producer customer who had M2's and was willing to sell his newish pair cheap (like 50% off MSLP). Besides the logistics issues, at that point I had turned the page and again, I preferred the more impactful bass of the 215's so ...
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post #36681 of 36686 Old Today, 11:34 AM
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So your saying your speaker is superior to the M2 with it's 800hz cross over a 15" woofer?
I believe his comments were concerning the 4722, not the M2.

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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
So your saying your speaker is superior to the M2 with it's 800hz cross over a 15" woofer?
The 212HTR is XO @360 hz so the coaxial cd plays this range from the center of the speaker. The 15" woofer of the JBL is located at the bottom so up to 800hz comes from the bottom vs the middle of the 212HTR.

I Think

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post #36683 of 36686 Old Today, 11:36 AM
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Wow, the M2's are "affordable." That really is something. If it's not any trouble and he happens to e-mail you, sure. I'm very curious what they prefer to the M2's and what makes the M2's an "affordable" alternative. Don't go out of your way though, just if you happen to be e-mailing him.
My brother in law, half owns a very high end audio shop and if you saw the markup in everything they sell, you puke. They can literally sell one set of high end speakers and pay all the bills and their salaries for a month on the markup..... And people still think they are getting a deal.....

I can get the JBL 4722s for 530$ CDN each from his install guys and they are still making good money lol. I had asked what I could get the m2s for and he said, if we did each other favors, about 1/3 of retail including amps lol

If I didn't already have my 215s, I'd be hard pressed to buy anything else. The m2s are pretty awesome, I'm not a huge fan of the 4722s but I've not heard them with the upgraded CDs either though.

They actually got a trade in set of PSB imagine t3s a few weeks ago and he's got as his place, holy moly are they wonderful sounding speakers! I've never heard any newer PSBs but they are flat out amazing.

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post #36684 of 36686 Old Today, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Just pinged one of the companies that gave me an M2 demo and I'll let you know (via PM) if I hear back.

The other demo was at the mothership Guitar Center store in Hollywood. That is huge store with nice demo rooms and was like a Rock and Roller's Nirvana. Those guys were the most open about discussing other products but I was there specifically for the M2 so didn't pay much attention to the comments about other more expensive monitors. They ended up contacting me a couple of weeks later about a music producer customer who had M2's and was willing to sell his newish pair cheap (like 50% off MSLP). Besides the logistics issues, at that point I had turned the page and again, I preferred the more impactful bass of the 215's so ...
Okay great, thanks! It's crazy how expensive these things can get.

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post #36685 of 36686 Old Today, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
I believe his comments were concerning the 4722, not the M2.
Agreed, but JBL, Klipsch, and QSC all have this 15" woofer over CD design in one fashion or another. They are the predominant speakers found in cinemas around the world. I understand it's physics, but I am sure their staffing of electrical, mechanical, and acoustic engineers with advanced degrees understand physics. If there is something apparently flawed in this design, wouldn't they have discovered this during their R&D?

I am also not saying the 4722 is better than JTR. I have always stated it is hard to beat for it's price/performance. I have heard nothing but great things about JTR's products.
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post #36686 of 36686 Old Today, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
My brother in law, half owns a very high end audio shop and if you saw the markup in everything they sell, you puke. They can literally sell one set of high end speakers and pay all the bills and their salaries for a month on the markup..... And people still think they are getting a deal.....

I can get the JBL 4722s for 530$ CDN each from his install guys and they are still making good money lol. I had asked what I could get the m2s for and he said, if we did each other favors, about 1/3 of retail including amps lol

If I didn't already have my 215s, I'd be hard pressed to buy anything else. The m2s are pretty awesome, I'm not a huge fan of the 4722s but I've not heard them with the upgraded CDs either though.

They actually got a trade in set of PSB imagine t3s a few weeks ago and he's got as his place, holy moly are they wonderful sounding speakers! I've never heard any newer PSBs but they are flat out amazing.
I know, the mark ups are downright insane. I can't think about it or it makes my head spin

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