Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian
The ring radiator design of BMS is extremely efficient and doesn't suffer from high frequency breakup as large dome compression drivers do. I was really hoping for a side by side comparison in KC last weekend however we had troubles with the system and ended up mainly playing with the subwoofers.
Stepping up to the coaxial compression driver means horn loading another octave lower plus adds what seems like limitless headroom.
For me the delta was cost/performance with a mindset that altered a bit. Altered mindset as in prior I had this conviction of the flawless JTR quality, quality control/testing added a SQ advantage over a made in Mexico speaker I think it is but if not point made. Regardless I think many can relate to the conviction and I held that same conviction on subs owning the dual Submersives and dreams of dual Cap S2's over DIY. This was based on the fact someone like Jeff or Mark can build/tune them better than I can. I still believe that but with measuring and the available DSP options the gap is much less. But that has changed/evolved being able to measure myself and feel confident enough to make the jump after a dozen or so blazed the trail on the 4722. But I still know of some who would never buy the JBL's based on quality alone as they feel it's trash. But to each his own from his own little world
As you, and everyone who has been around, the original 212 Noesis was my dream speaker. But 3450 (add 800 for x3 CD upgrade) vs 6k ish was enough for me to make the jump on the JBL's. Now future I'm certainly not saying I would never move to reference JTR's if finances or a perfect storm trade permitted
In all fairness, and adult like comparison, I think we can say: Maybe JTR has the slight edge on the CD (only as in BMS in known for ultra quality not that JBL 2453H-SL is known for trash as it's one of their top CD's). JTR definitely has the edge on overall craftsmanship and build quality with materials but how this affects sound may be a void issue and more personal mental security. I don't know enough about speaker design to make a point for WTW vs. TWW but I have read arguments that stacked woofers are superior but again I do not know. What about dispersion or the large horn the 4722 has? Does the 4722 have any advantages in your opinion? Feels like a touchy subject but we are all adults yes? Not attempting to stir the pot, just bring a rational voice in
Originally Posted by rcohen
JTR crossovers are the size of phonebooks, though. With some help from some good DSP, I wonder if that mostly closes the gap. I know it sounds good to me.
One thing that surprised me at the Kansas City Crawl was that none of the JTR speakers there sounded nearly as nice as mine do to me. No offense intended in that. I can't touch the bass I heard (sadly), but it left me scratching my head. It sounded like a more peaky response and in some cases it sounded more harsh to me. The closest was dlbeck's theater, which sounded smooth and neutral, but lacked the intoxicating quality that I'm getting.
Interestingly, when we listened to his Salks with RAAL tweeters in his music setup upstairs, there was that intoxicating treble. My reaction was, "That's what my 212 treble sounds like!"
Looking at the measured frequency response in most of these theaters, I can see that I wasn't imagining the peaky aspects to the sound.
I want to make sure I don't lose that intoxicating sound when I finish out my theater, so I'm trying to figure out what the deal is. My theories:
1) I spent a lot of time dialing in the target curve with Dirac to my taste. Maybe I tuned it to sound good to me, and the other theaters were tuned to sound good to their owners.
2) Maybe Dirac just does a better job correcting the frequency response then whatever those theaters are using.
3) It could be at least partially an amp thing. I know that is a questionable claim, but I really enjoy the pairing of the JTRs with my Parasound A51 amp over the other amps I tried with it. It seems to make the treble more pleasing. This difference is more subtle, and I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there ya go.
4) Maybe it's because I have a larger, more reflective room, and the intoxicating sound is from more lively reflections. Dlbeck's Salks were in his living room, not his heavily treated theater.
Intoxicating treble...maybe best description for all I have ever wanted...The 2453H-SL cd upgrade removed any and all aspects of harshness or gravelly-ness as Carp called it. I have a Legacy audio ultra high quality recordings that can show flaws in speakers. One song called 'Novocaine" by Amber Rubarth is one that the stock 2432H cd's begged for volume down as her natural honky peaks of her voice were harsh. The 2453 cd actually I started 2 clicks higher and crept 2 more clicks without ever wanting to turn it down. Significant difference. But my 'trashy redneck LR thrown in slap echo infested living room' is not the best environment lol. I trust a theater room methodically treated could make intoxicating a reality.
According to the pro's no more than 25% of your walls should be covered with absorption and this includes ceilings. Anthony Grimani in an old HT Geeks episode said in light of that you want to place your absorption wisely before you run out of 25%. I think nearly all have more than 25% and one room I loved had a MEGA treated package from GIK. But lateral reflections being tamed like Dlbeck's theater with slat style diffusion over the top of broadband bass absorption is what I understand to be absolute best for sidewalls as you get both benefits. Also taking advantage of kraft paper or material that reflects the upper range. I have a roll of black microsuede from ATS acoustics that does not appear to be 100% AT in spite of their claims as in you cannot easily blow through it. So I measured and it hits 1k and drops a straight slanted line to 0db at 20k. Point is it would be great material for broadband bass panels with 100% absorption up to 1k and still effective through the offensive 2k-6k range but not stealing it entirely.
Originally Posted by RMK!
Really sorry I opened this can of worms ...
It's not the number of screws nor the effort involved. It is unilaterally using a different CD with a speaker not designed to use that CD. Why not just swap out the JTR HTR CD for the HT model? Oh thats right, it has different performance characteristics that need to be considered in the Xover. If Harmons engineering is that loosie goosie that CD swapping is just fine with them, then that says something to me. The devil is in the details and this home remedy seems like a ready fire aim solution to HF harshness not to mention invalidating any warranty.
Re the M2, I flew 500 miles (Hollywood) to hear them at two dealer locations. Both demos were setup by professional sound guys (one had two Emmy awards on this desk) and they sounded great. Not being JBL guys nor sales people they also mentioned that there were monitors that they preferred but that the M2 was "a more commercially viable speaker that could be used in the home". When I pushed them loud the bass was less than I had become accustomed to with the 215RT's. They may have been a touch cleaner in the HF range but it was IMHO, a very small delta. Turns out, sound quality and appreciation are subjective and opinions are like a$$ holes.
That said, a GTG sounds like a good plan JP. Let's touch base on the logistics when you've settled in and get a date on the books.
I was just being sarcastic on the Allen wrench comment, I get it
Or could it be the 2432H and 2453H-SL are very similar? I think I remember some of the guys who hang on Lansing heritage forums said some there felt the original intent was the 2453 but dropped to 2432 to shave dollars but don't quote me. Regardless of everything the 2453 actually measures better than the 2432 and really that is all that matters but I do completely understand your view point! As far as warranty I think the lower cost of the speaker entirely, the 2453H-SL low cost in relation to the fact that speaker drivers (LF & HF) failure rates are extremely low make people comfortable. And being able to buy JBL parts in kits makes things easy.
I still really want to hear reference JTR's and 2hrs away would be super easy
And besides maybe in a year or so another West Coast GTG would be due. Ive only attended one in Seattle and had a blast and learned a ton!