Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1224 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #36691 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
d_c, I'm really curious as to how the 210's sound.... When Rob and I had gotten the 2 first 215's, I think the 210 was still in the design phase and honestly would have been a better fit in my room lol
I hope one day to hear a pair but I'm sure they only way that will happen, is if I personally buy them lol.
Yep, if I had your subs, it would be 210's. I heard the 210RT's at RMAF 2 years ago and they were fantastic.

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Originally Posted by yosh7 View Post
If I did go with JTR for L/C/R - just curious what everyone uses for surrounds? Are the slanted 8's timbre matched? Could I go with something like the JBL SC8 without noticing too much as long as all surrounds are same? The JTR would be lots of $$ so thinking how I could save with the surrounds.

I currently have the same woofers and tweeters for all 9 channels and am a bit worried about noticing a difference with panning.
I am using all JTR for my 7 base level channels. The Triple 8LP's are the side surrounds and the Slanted 8's are my Surround backs. I am using JBL 84340 cinema speakers for my 4 Atmos speakers and they are fine. I made the mistake of A/Bing them in mono mode vs the Slanted 8's and the differences in clarity was startling. Again, they sound fine for the atmospherics of Atmos but I won't really be happy until I get Slanted 8LP's as my Atmos speakers.

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post #36692 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
The ring radiator design of BMS is extremely efficient and doesn't suffer from high frequency breakup as large dome compression drivers do. I was really hoping for a side by side comparison in KC last weekend however we had troubles with the system and ended up mainly playing with the subwoofers.

Stepping up to the coaxial compression driver means horn loading another octave lower plus adds what seems like limitless headroom.
For me the delta was cost/performance with a mindset that altered a bit. Altered mindset as in prior I had this conviction of the flawless JTR quality, quality control/testing added a SQ advantage over a made in Mexico speaker I think it is but if not point made. Regardless I think many can relate to the conviction and I held that same conviction on subs owning the dual Submersives and dreams of dual Cap S2's over DIY. This was based on the fact someone like Jeff or Mark can build/tune them better than I can. I still believe that but with measuring and the available DSP options the gap is much less. But that has changed/evolved being able to measure myself and feel confident enough to make the jump after a dozen or so blazed the trail on the 4722. But I still know of some who would never buy the JBL's based on quality alone as they feel it's trash. But to each his own from his own little world As you, and everyone who has been around, the original 212 Noesis was my dream speaker. But 3450 (add 800 for x3 CD upgrade) vs 6k ish was enough for me to make the jump on the JBL's. Now future I'm certainly not saying I would never move to reference JTR's if finances or a perfect storm trade permitted

In all fairness, and adult like comparison, I think we can say: Maybe JTR has the slight edge on the CD (only as in BMS in known for ultra quality not that JBL 2453H-SL is known for trash as it's one of their top CD's). JTR definitely has the edge on overall craftsmanship and build quality with materials but how this affects sound may be a void issue and more personal mental security. I don't know enough about speaker design to make a point for WTW vs. TWW but I have read arguments that stacked woofers are superior but again I do not know. What about dispersion or the large horn the 4722 has? Does the 4722 have any advantages in your opinion? Feels like a touchy subject but we are all adults yes? Not attempting to stir the pot, just bring a rational voice in

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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
JTR crossovers are the size of phonebooks, though. With some help from some good DSP, I wonder if that mostly closes the gap. I know it sounds good to me.

One thing that surprised me at the Kansas City Crawl was that none of the JTR speakers there sounded nearly as nice as mine do to me. No offense intended in that. I can't touch the bass I heard (sadly), but it left me scratching my head. It sounded like a more peaky response and in some cases it sounded more harsh to me. The closest was dlbeck's theater, which sounded smooth and neutral, but lacked the intoxicating quality that I'm getting.

Interestingly, when we listened to his Salks with RAAL tweeters in his music setup upstairs, there was that intoxicating treble. My reaction was, "That's what my 212 treble sounds like!"

Looking at the measured frequency response in most of these theaters, I can see that I wasn't imagining the peaky aspects to the sound.

I want to make sure I don't lose that intoxicating sound when I finish out my theater, so I'm trying to figure out what the deal is. My theories:

1) I spent a lot of time dialing in the target curve with Dirac to my taste. Maybe I tuned it to sound good to me, and the other theaters were tuned to sound good to their owners.
2) Maybe Dirac just does a better job correcting the frequency response then whatever those theaters are using.
3) It could be at least partially an amp thing. I know that is a questionable claim, but I really enjoy the pairing of the JTRs with my Parasound A51 amp over the other amps I tried with it. It seems to make the treble more pleasing. This difference is more subtle, and I wouldn't bet my life on it, but there ya go.
4) Maybe it's because I have a larger, more reflective room, and the intoxicating sound is from more lively reflections. Dlbeck's Salks were in his living room, not his heavily treated theater.
Intoxicating treble...maybe best description for all I have ever wanted...The 2453H-SL cd upgrade removed any and all aspects of harshness or gravelly-ness as Carp called it. I have a Legacy audio ultra high quality recordings that can show flaws in speakers. One song called 'Novocaine" by Amber Rubarth is one that the stock 2432H cd's begged for volume down as her natural honky peaks of her voice were harsh. The 2453 cd actually I started 2 clicks higher and crept 2 more clicks without ever wanting to turn it down. Significant difference. But my 'trashy redneck LR thrown in slap echo infested living room' is not the best environment lol. I trust a theater room methodically treated could make intoxicating a reality.

According to the pro's no more than 25% of your walls should be covered with absorption and this includes ceilings. Anthony Grimani in an old HT Geeks episode said in light of that you want to place your absorption wisely before you run out of 25%. I think nearly all have more than 25% and one room I loved had a MEGA treated package from GIK. But lateral reflections being tamed like Dlbeck's theater with slat style diffusion over the top of broadband bass absorption is what I understand to be absolute best for sidewalls as you get both benefits. Also taking advantage of kraft paper or material that reflects the upper range. I have a roll of black microsuede from ATS acoustics that does not appear to be 100% AT in spite of their claims as in you cannot easily blow through it. So I measured and it hits 1k and drops a straight slanted line to 0db at 20k. Point is it would be great material for broadband bass panels with 100% absorption up to 1k and still effective through the offensive 2k-6k range but not stealing it entirely.

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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Really sorry I opened this can of worms ...

It's not the number of screws nor the effort involved. It is unilaterally using a different CD with a speaker not designed to use that CD. Why not just swap out the JTR HTR CD for the HT model? Oh thats right, it has different performance characteristics that need to be considered in the Xover. If Harmons engineering is that loosie goosie that CD swapping is just fine with them, then that says something to me. The devil is in the details and this home remedy seems like a ready fire aim solution to HF harshness not to mention invalidating any warranty.


Re the M2, I flew 500 miles (Hollywood) to hear them at two dealer locations. Both demos were setup by professional sound guys (one had two Emmy awards on this desk) and they sounded great. Not being JBL guys nor sales people they also mentioned that there were monitors that they preferred but that the M2 was "a more commercially viable speaker that could be used in the home". When I pushed them loud the bass was less than I had become accustomed to with the 215RT's. They may have been a touch cleaner in the HF range but it was IMHO, a very small delta. Turns out, sound quality and appreciation are subjective and opinions are like a$$ holes.

That said, a GTG sounds like a good plan JP. Let's touch base on the logistics when you've settled in and get a date on the books.
I was just being sarcastic on the Allen wrench comment, I get it

Or could it be the 2432H and 2453H-SL are very similar? I think I remember some of the guys who hang on Lansing heritage forums said some there felt the original intent was the 2453 but dropped to 2432 to shave dollars but don't quote me. Regardless of everything the 2453 actually measures better than the 2432 and really that is all that matters but I do completely understand your view point! As far as warranty I think the lower cost of the speaker entirely, the 2453H-SL low cost in relation to the fact that speaker drivers (LF & HF) failure rates are extremely low make people comfortable. And being able to buy JBL parts in kits makes things easy.

I still really want to hear reference JTR's and 2hrs away would be super easy And besides maybe in a year or so another West Coast GTG would be due. Ive only attended one in Seattle and had a blast and learned a ton!
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post #36693 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
The 212HTR is XO @360 hz so the coaxial cd plays this range from the center of the speaker. The 15" woofer of the JBL is located at the bottom so up to 800hz comes from the bottom vs the middle of the 212HTR.

I Think
But then again M2's were designed as monitors I do know enough to know I have no idea if that makes sense lol.

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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
d_c, I'm really curious as to how the 210's sound.... When Rob and I had gotten the 2 first 215's, I think the 210 was still in the design phase and honestly would have been a better fit in my room lol
I hope one day to hear a pair but I'm sure they only way that will happen, is if I personally buy them lol.
Well with your fan following up there you could certainly unload your 215's on someone
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post #36694 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by d_c View Post
I have a pair of the 210rt, so new that I haven't had a chance to really set them up. I heard these first about 2 years ago and they blew me away, which was unfortunate because I had just finished building my dream speakers. I DIY just about everything, not to avoid spending some money, but to get the most out of my money and to enjoy the process of learning a new skill and creating something. I tried to figure out how to build something like the 210rt, but found that there isn't anything to gain as far as money savings and everything to lose in sound quality if I couldn't get the crossover right.

Jeff asked my why I decided to go for these instead of DIY as usual, and my answer was something like what I stated above and also that there is an art to creating the perfect crossover, which I believe lies within the 210 along with the modified coaxial CD and dual 10" drivers. I have heard nearly everything in the JTR lineup excluding the 228htr and the 212ht (when properly set up). The 215rt was my favorite all time speaker until I heard the 210. The 215 reminded me of the tactile feeling you get from being at a concert, the sound from a stack of Marshalls that give heavy metal guitars that signature sound that you don't usually get at home on hifi speakers, and zero deficit in frequency range at any volume while maintaining smooth highs that are easy on the ears. Usually you get some of these things, but never all. The 210rt does this, but has a better lower midrange sound to me, which I would guess comes from the smaller 10" midbass driver.

I currently have these set up temporarily in my media room about 10' apart with a 10 degree toe in, about 12-13' feet from the MLP. Running them full range on AVR power from my Onkyo 818 (110wpch @4r?) gives a staggering amount of midbass punch and full-range reference level sound down to below 30hz. Any more power to them requires a HPF and I should be using one now, but like I said, I barely have had time to plug them in for a listen. Last weekend at the KC HT Crawl we demoed some of the standard bass-lover tracks like Bass I Love You, Carbon Prevails, etc. and the 210 was producing notes without breaking a sweat that should not come out of a 10" driver. There were many of us that day in awe of the beautiful sound that these make, while at the same time in disbelief that no subs were activated to reproduce the sounds filling my open room. Poem of a Chinese drum was delivered with the pounding of the drums with the faint echoes of the delicate percussion that moved around the room and hardly from the point of the source. Waters of March produced her warm voice in the upper right center of the room articulating the sounds of her lips that were too close to the mic when the track was recorded. The female voicing on the 210 is just nuts, it's what really stands out as the most redeeming part of this reference tower. Hopefully next week I can have some time to sit in front of these and listen to some Tool, Metallica, Floyd, Puscifer, and Clapton tracks, along with some concert Blurays like Through the Never and the Dave Matthews show. Anyways, it's difficult to describe a perception, but I hope this helps you get an idea about how the 210rt does it for me.


Boom.

I'm saying it again, the 210 RT's should be Jeff's best seller. They sounded amazing in your living room. We have very similar taste in speakers.
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post #36695 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 01:54 PM
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I missed my chance to hear them.
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post #36696 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 02:16 PM
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Has anyone heard both the 210RT's and the 215RM's? Would they be comparable for 2 channel music w/o subs? The 215RT's are just to large. I like the 215RM's cause I could rest them on top of 2 CAP 2400's. Dont think I could fit the 210RT's and the 2400's due to their size and having to run them length wise. The 210's are towers i couldn't stack them on subs.... just thinking out loud


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post #36697 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by d_c View Post
I have a pair of the 210rt, so new that I haven't had a chance to really set them up. I heard these first about 2 years ago and they blew me away, which was unfortunate because I had just finished building my dream speakers. I DIY just about everything, not to avoid spending some money, but to get the most out of my money and to enjoy the process of learning a new skill and creating something. I tried to figure out how to build something like the 210rt, but found that there isn't anything to gain as far as money savings and everything to lose in sound quality if I couldn't get the crossover right.

Jeff asked my why I decided to go for these instead of DIY as usual, and my answer was something like what I stated above and also that there is an art to creating the perfect crossover, which I believe lies within the 210 along with the modified coaxial CD and dual 10" drivers. I have heard nearly everything in the JTR lineup excluding the 228htr and the 212ht (when properly set up). The 215rt was my favorite all time speaker until I heard the 210. The 215 reminded me of the tactile feeling you get from being at a concert, the sound from a stack of Marshalls that give heavy metal guitars that signature sound that you don't usually get at home on hifi speakers, and zero deficit in frequency range at any volume while maintaining smooth highs that are easy on the ears. Usually you get some of these things, but never all. The 210rt does this, but has a better lower midrange sound to me, which I would guess comes from the smaller 10" midbass driver.

I currently have these set up temporarily in my media room about 10' apart with a 10 degree toe in, about 12-13' feet from the MLP. Running them full range on AVR power from my Onkyo 818 (110wpch @4r?) gives a staggering amount of midbass punch and full-range reference level sound down to below 30hz. Any more power to them requires a HPF and I should be using one now, but like I said, I barely have had time to plug them in for a listen. Last weekend at the KC HT Crawl we demoed some of the standard bass-lover tracks like Bass I Love You, Carbon Prevails, etc. and the 210 was producing notes without breaking a sweat that should not come out of a 10" driver. There were many of us that day in awe of the beautiful sound that these make, while at the same time in disbelief that no subs were activated to reproduce the sounds filling my open room. Poem of a Chinese drum was delivered with the pounding of the drums with the faint echoes of the delicate percussion that moved around the room and hardly from the point of the source. Waters of March produced her warm voice in the upper right center of the room articulating the sounds of her lips that were too close to the mic when the track was recorded. The female voicing on the 210 is just nuts, it's what really stands out as the most redeeming part of this reference tower. Hopefully next week I can have some time to sit in front of these and listen to some Tool, Metallica, Floyd, Puscifer, and Clapton tracks, along with some concert Blurays like Through the Never and the Dave Matthews show. Anyways, it's difficult to describe a perception, but I hope this helps you get an idea about how the 210rt does it for me.
How does your seos12 setup compare to the 210rt's?
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post #36698 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 06:14 PM
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How does your seos12 setup compare to the 210rt's?
The seos doesn't have the killer mid range sound that the 210 has. Funny because the AE TD12m is regarded as a stellar mid. I could be pulling this out of my ass, but I seem to remember the xo of the dna360 and 12m is at 1100hz, so right in the middle of the voicing that is pleasing to my ear. I noticed the same when I upgraded the audio in my truck to a 3-way Hybrid Audio Legatia Pro set with the 3" dome mids crossed at 500 and 4000. Major improvement with the midrange for acoustic music, metal, voices, ect. It's so nice to listen to, but it doesn't get loud which is fine for a vehicle. Don't get me wrong, I love those Seos speakers, put a ton of time in to them, and can and do listen to them for hours on end loving every second. I think they sound amazing for most music, just not for metal. Also dialogue can get kind of honky in my center for films. Probably some from the on-wall placement with limited sound treatments, definitely some floor bounce, definitely some bounce from the TV directly above it. The other major difference between the Seos and the 210 is the range. My Seos are only decent to XO down to 60hz and sucked for full range when I had them tuned lower in the test enclosures. There was nothing there in the low end. The 210s have that crazy tight midbass punch that's like "snap!" when it hits and a nice full sound all the way to the xo, and also has the low extension that enables it to be a truly full-range speaker for music.
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post #36699 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post
Has anyone heard both the 210RT's and the 215RM's? Would they be comparable for 2 channel music w/o subs? The 215RT's are just to large. I like the 215RM's cause I could rest them on top of 2 CAP 2400's. Dont think I could fit the 210RT's and the 2400's due to their size and having to run them length wise. The 210's are towers i couldn't stack them on subs.... just thinking out loud


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If the speakers are literally sitting on top of 2 subs, why would you run them full range without subs?
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post #36700 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
If the speakers are literally sitting on top of 2 subs, why would you run them full range without subs?


Theater room will not be dedicated or soundproofed ( bar top/overflow seating after the second row of seating that will open to the bar and lounge area. During late hours when the wife and kids are upstairs I won't be turning the subs on while watching movies. Still want a system capable in the low 30's to get some impact when not at reference while watching movies late at night. Plus, I do wanna play these 2 channel


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post #36701 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post
Theater room will not be dedicated or soundproofed ( bar top/overflow seating after the second row of seating that will open to the bar and lounge area. During late hours when the wife and kids are upstairs I won't be turning the subs on while watching movies. Still want a system capable in the low 30's to get some impact when not at reference while watching movies late at night. Plus, I do wanna play these 2 channel


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The 215RMs and 210RTs do seem like they would be pretty comparable for that.
Would one fit better or be more practical for you in some way?

Another option could be to use 212HTRs with the subs, and use some sort of selectable EQ for night mode. If you EQ down the bass, you could leave the subs engaged, rather than running the mains full range.

Last edited by rcohen; Yesterday at 07:24 AM.
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post #36702 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 08:52 PM
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@Jeff Permanian
Is there a wall mount designed for the 228HT?
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post #36703 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 09:55 PM
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@Jeff Permanian
Is there a wall mount designed for the 228HT?
Not Jeff but ...you can hang this 14" depth speaker on the wall. I did that with it's predecessor, the Triple 8 and then the Triple 8LP. The best JTR options for wall mounting are the Single or Slanted 8LP's. These like my Triple 8LP's are only 7" deep and so are a good choice for wall mounting.

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post #36704 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 11:35 PM
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@Jeff Permanian
Is there a wall mount designed for the 228HT?
Those speakers are really heavy. Back in the days of cathode ray tube TVs you could have simply purchased a CRT TV wall mount, but the TV wall mounts nowadays are all for flat screens. Maybe you could still find a CRT wall mount somewhere online?

Most of the dedicated wall speaker mounts at Amazon etc seem to max out at about 30 lbs.

But you could simply get a shelf kit at Home Depot and cut it to size, so that there's a custom-sized shelf under your speaker. Many of those shelving systems can hold hundreds of pounds and cost under $40. Might not look as clean as a dedicated speaker wall mount, but at least it should be able to hold the weight.

Maybe Jeff has a cleaner solution?
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post #36705 of 36714 Old 02-25-2017, 11:45 PM
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Those speakers are really heavy. Back in the days of cathode ray tube TVs you could have simply purchased a CRT TV wall mount, but the TV wall mounts nowadays are all for flat screens. Maybe you could still find a CRT wall mount somewhere online?

Most of the dedicated wall speaker mounts at Amazon etc seem to max out at about 30 lbs.

But you could simply get a shelf kit at Home Depot and cut it to size, so that there's a custom-sized shelf under your speaker. Many of those shelving systems can hold hundreds of pounds and cost under $40. Might not look as clean as a dedicated speaker wall mount, but at least it should be able to hold the weight.

Maybe Jeff has a cleaner solution?
Jeff installs keyhole mounts on the Single 8's and might do that for the 228 as well. I used a french cleat to hang the heavy Triple 8's but that required drilling the cabinet.

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post #36706 of 36714 Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by d_c View Post
The seos doesn't have the killer mid range sound that the 210 has. Funny because the AE TD12m is regarded as a stellar mid. I could be pulling this out of my ass, but I seem to remember the xo of the dna360 and 12m is at 1100hz, so right in the middle of the voicing that is pleasing to my ear. I noticed the same when I upgraded the audio in my truck to a 3-way Hybrid Audio Legatia Pro set with the 3" dome mids crossed at 500 and 4000. Major improvement with the midrange for acoustic music, metal, voices, ect. It's so nice to listen to, but it doesn't get loud which is fine for a vehicle. Don't get me wrong, I love those Seos speakers, put a ton of time in to them, and can and do listen to them for hours on end loving every second. I think they sound amazing for most music, just not for metal. Also dialogue can get kind of honky in my center for films. Probably some from the on-wall placement with limited sound treatments, definitely some floor bounce, definitely some bounce from the TV directly above it. The other major difference between the Seos and the 210 is the range. My Seos are only decent to XO down to 60hz and sucked for full range when I had them tuned lower in the test enclosures. There was nothing there in the low end. The 210s have that crazy tight midbass punch that's like "snap!" when it hits and a nice full sound all the way to the xo, and also has the low extension that enables it to be a truly full-range speaker for music.
Doug, thanks for your comprehensive response. I currently have the F12 - tempest setup in my family room and the F15 - sentinels in my HT so I have a good point of reference. I've only heard the T8, T12 and 228ht's from JTR but would be confident to blind buy a pair of 210RT's. Just sent Jeff a message.
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post #36707 of 36714 Old Yesterday, 08:32 AM
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Doug, thanks for your comprehensive response. I currently have the F12 - tempest setup in my family room and the F15 - sentinels in my HT so I have a good point of reference. I've only heard the T8, T12 and 228ht's from JTR but would be confident to blind buy a pair of 210RT's. Just sent Jeff a message.


No problem! I hope you like them as much as I do. I would imagine the 15 in your tempest would give the 210 a run for the money, but everything else would be no contest. I'm test driving Carp's Crown xti4002 so I can use the 30hz hpf in its dsp to protect the drivers. I will also try crossing a sealed hs24 for 34hz down. This combo I think will be my huckleberry.
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post #36708 of 36714 Old Yesterday, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Agreed, but JBL, Klipsch, and QSC all have this 15" woofer over CD design in one fashion or another. They are the predominant speakers found in cinemas around the world. I understand it's physics, but I am sure their staffing of electrical, mechanical, and acoustic engineers with advanced degrees understand physics. If there is something apparently flawed in this design, wouldn't they have discovered this during their R&D?

I am also not saying the 4722 is better than JTR. I have always stated it is hard to beat for it's price/performance. I have heard nothing but great things about JTR's products.
In professional cinemas, as the speakers are designed for, the speakers are installed at the horizontal center of the screen, which is several feet above the front row listener's ears and very far away from the back rows. The farther you are from these speakers the less the difference of acoustical centers matters.

You seemed to miss the point about the "lower" 15" woofer. The M2 only has one 15" woofer that is right below the horn so the acoustical centers are much closer than the 4722N which has another 15" that is below the first 15" which is farther way. When you have two speakers playing the same content then the perceived point of origin is directly between the two (stereo imaging). The M2's woofer's perceived point of origin is 7.5" ish below the horn, 15" ish below the 4722's horn and dead center on the Noesis 212HT's horn. Because of the Noesis's driver arrangement and careful design, all the drivers (high, mid, woofers) are time aligned and have the exact same perceived point of origin.
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post #36709 of 36714 Old Yesterday, 01:44 PM
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Has anyone heard both the 210RT's and the 215RM's? Would they be comparable for 2 channel music w/o subs? The 215RT's are just to large. I like the 215RM's cause I could rest them on top of 2 CAP 2400's. Dont think I could fit the 210RT's and the 2400's due to their size and having to run them length wise. The 210's are towers i couldn't stack them on subs.... just thinking out loud


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I have the 215RM's and continue to be amazed at how they sound for music and movies. They are in my dedicated theater. 210's are awesome as well. Heard them at Axpona a couple years back....both are comparable performers. I like your idea of stacking on the Caps...Jeff made some stands for mine.
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post #36710 of 36714 Old Today, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post
In professional cinemas, as the speakers are designed for, the speakers are installed at the horizontal center of the screen, which is several feet above the front row listener's ears and very far away from the back rows. The farther you are from these speakers the less the difference of acoustical centers matters.

You seemed to miss the point about the "lower" 15" woofer. The M2 only has one 15" woofer that is right below the horn so the acoustical centers are much closer than the 4722N which has another 15" that is below the first 15" which is farther way. When you have two speakers playing the same content then the perceived point of origin is directly between the two (stereo imaging). The M2's woofer's perceived point of origin is 7.5" ish below the horn, 15" ish below the 4722's horn and dead center on the Noesis 212HT's horn. Because of the Noesis's driver arrangement and careful design, all the drivers (high, mid, woofers) are time aligned and have the exact same perceived point of origin.
Right but after a certain distance this is a non issue yes?
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post #36711 of 36714 Old Today, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian
In professional cinemas, as the speakers are designed for, the speakers are installed at the horizontal center of the screen, which is several feet above the front row listener's ears and very far away from the back rows. The farther you are from these speakers, the less the difference of acoustical centers matters.

You seemed to miss the point about the "lower" 15" woofer. The M2 only has one 15" woofer that is right below the horn so the acoustical centers are much closer than the 4722N which has another 15" that is below the first 15" which is farther way. When you have two speakers playing the same content then the perceived point of origin is directly between the two (stereo imaging). The M2's woofer's perceived point of origin is 7.5" ish below the horn, 15" ish below the 4722's horn and dead center on the Noesis 212HT's horn. Because of the Noesis's driver arrangement and careful design, all the drivers (high, mid, woofers) are time aligned and have the exact same perceived point of origin.
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Right but after a certain distance this is a non issue yes?
As you can see from the bold sentence above the answer to your question is a qualified yes. No one is maintaining that the 4722 is a poor design. All of the user testimonials would suggest that they are a very good bang for buck HT speaker. Rather the comments were that the 4722 was designed for large spaces (commercial theaters) and their utilization in a smaller HT space may expose design limitations that would not normally be noticed. Even then, people will hear or not hear things depending upon many other factors.

My comments were specific to the swapping out of the CD with no other design changes. You and others claim this home grown quick fix greatly improves the speakers performance. Point in space measurements aside, I have yet to hear anyone from Harmon engineering say this component swapout is a good idea and because of the warranty issues, I doubt that endorsement will be forth coming.

Opinions are not facts.
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post #36712 of 36714 Old Today, 11:24 AM
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Right but after a certain distance this is a non issue yes?
Best thing to do with the 4722 is to raise them up so that the horn is just above the center of the screen and the woofers would be just below center. This compromise would keep sound near the center of the screen.
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post #36713 of 36714 Old Today, 01:58 PM
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Best thing to do with the 4722 is to raise them up so that the horn is just above the center of the screen and the woofers would be just below center. This compromise would keep sound near the center of the screen.
Yea I just mentioned in 4722 thread in another comment I had a remembrance, but could be totally wrong, that the acoustical center was the top of the bass bin/bottom lip of the horn. That ideal placement vertical wise would be I would guess 3-4" or so CD above ear height if that was true.

Anyway Love JTR products even though I don't own anymore and still recommend them to people
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post #36714 of 36714 Old Today, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
As you can see from the bold sentence above the answer to your question is a qualified yes. No one is maintaining that the 4722 is a poor design. All of the user testimonials would suggest that they are a very good bang for buck HT speaker. Rather the comments were that the 4722 was designed for large spaces (commercial theaters) and their utilization in a smaller HT space may expose design limitations that would not normally be noticed. Even then, people will hear or not hear things depending upon many other factors.

My comments were specific to the swapping out of the CD with no other design changes. You and others claim this home grown quick fix greatly improves the speakers performance. Point in space measurements aside, I have yet to hear anyone from Harmon engineering say this component swapout is a good idea and because of the warranty issues, I doubt that endorsement will be forth coming.
Somehow missed that

Limitations they do have yes. 30" wide with CD 15" from center eats up horizontal room distance for a LCR spread, ideally need some space back from them compared to other offerings, 11-13ft I would think nearly everyone would agree ideal. Even though JBL themselves mentioned shorter can work. But at only 17" deep they have advantages to save false wall and overall room distance, the MASSIVE horn spreads sound that is ridiculous, the dual 15's IMO absolutely articulate bass like I have never heard from a main (not a large sample I admit). And the controlled directivity does well to limit 1st point reflections. Designed for big movie theaters yes but that doesn't mean they are automatically disqualified for home use. I have read others basing disqualified based on that fact alone rather than actual measurable data. Also could not a 212 HTR work in a mid sized cinema with it's ultra sensitivity and it's amazing max SPL? I mean if they measure on several different data points the same as a JTR, DIYSG offering, etc then it comes down to space limitations yes?

I understand the viewpoint of the CD swap totally. I once held the same mentality of manufacturers alone making such modifications and me personally even the physical install. That why I had sent my triple 8's back to Jeff for the CD and crossover swap few years back rather than doing it myself. I heard someone the other day mention how we can't even agree with ourselves entirely on certain things as our viewpoints change/evolve over time. For me this is what happened in this particular realm as long as the tested data supplied in a extreme extensive manner by very capable Notnyt measures/performs actually better than the stock 2432H CD then I am more than satisfied with that. But I totally understand and respect a disagreement even if I don't agree

Anyway I quit in the JTR thread JTR speakers are amazing, Jeff is the embodiment of customer service and craftsmanship. I can't wait to hear a reference line speaker! And to be totally honest if life permitted I would probably own JTR's now over my 4722's based on form factor alone with moving, having a basic stereo setup now and then for awhile. Prob could actually pull it off selling the upgraded CD's, stock CD's and DSi amps but used market buying has seemed to have slowed down much less west coast vs east coast buyer availability.
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