Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1241 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37201 of 37229 Old 04-24-2017, 08:30 PM
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Mark's room was even more impressive in the fact that it was triple the size at 60x90. It truly was the size of of a theater. The 8 F18's had complete control of the room when called upon as well as walking in and seeing two towers of subs.. Always a treat to talk to Mark as he is so knowledgeable about what is the next step, and how to achieve it. The Stewart screen and Sony projector threw an emersive picture with everything that was thrown at it.He had the new sparks on display which would match the F18's perfectly. They are truly beautiful and would be artwork to hang on your wall and then blow people away when you fire them up.
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post #37202 of 37229 Old 04-24-2017, 08:50 PM
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I am not sure which Elton John set it was. I was more taking in what the speakers were doing with the room and taking pictures. I was also talking to Imagic and Desertdome at the time. The sets that stood out were the Star spangled banner and the orchestra with Star Wars. Truly a great variety to showcase the strengths of the full range speaker system. I know Mark Seaton was playing The force awakens and Sing. They both played So far gone from Art of Flight. Mark was a little more subdued as this was mid day but did crank it up a few times while the headphone huggers were out to lunch with quite a few giggles from the audience. Jeff had the Hotel add another circuit on Sunday so he was happy to lean on the go peddle when asked. It was funny that Emotiva was next door with at least four xref subs, and thow capable, couldn't really even come close to the effortless power from the full range speakers.

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post #37203 of 37229 Old 04-24-2017, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Do you know what Elton John demo that is in your pic?

Does anybody have a setlist of what was played?

Thank you in advance.
Desertdome posted a setlist several pages back I'm pretty sure.
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post #37204 of 37229 Old 04-24-2017, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Desertdome posted a setlist several pages back I'm pretty sure.
Thank you i will look for it.

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post #37205 of 37229 Old 04-24-2017, 09:54 PM
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I just got home from AXPONA about an hour ago. I've been so busy since last Wednesday that I haven't even been on the forum until now. My wife and kids stayed with a friend 2 hours south of Chicago. I got in there last night at 1 am and slept until noon today. After repacking the van and eating lunch, we headed back home.

On Thursday Jeff and I loaded everything in trailers and vans, drove an hour to the Westin, unloaded everything with the help of Jeff's friend, and built an entire theater and 2 channel room with audio and video calibration. In the middle of the day, I also did a quick audio calibration for the live sound venue. After the hour drive back to Jeff's house, we finally got to bed at 2 am. Had to get up by 7:30 on Friday to head down to the show for some last minute setup and arrangements.





Leonard Caillouet of AVNirvana.com spent quite a bit of time in our room. He even came back on Sunday afternoon for at least an hour after writing this:

Quote:
Jeff from JTR is a very pleasant gentleman, soft spoken and passionate about his products. He speaks openly about his design philosophy, which is not mainstream, for sure, but quite sound engineering. The result is a very pleasant surprise, with products like the NOESIS 210RT, which are efficient, tremendously powerful, and extremely low distortion. For such a monster in terms of its power, it is quite pleasing to listen to and is capable of a solid and expansive sound stage, has superb balance, and did I mention, low distortion. As most of you know who have been around me, my starting point for speakers is very low distortion, particularly in the mid-range. It is here that we are most sensitive, and where most content is that requires precision, IMNSHO. With his coaxial compression driver and careful attention to horn design, he achieves precisely this. With the mid-range response of his driver, the crossovers can be moved well out of the mid-range resulting in a seamless transition that many speakers have trouble with. Jeff is one of those engineering types that really does not care to attend to marketing and presentation, just wants to build better products. We look forward to getting to know his speakers better and working with him to get reviews and perhaps even some product giveaways. His was one of the better stories of the show, in spite of his apparent lack of interest in such. He provided speakers to support the blues show Saturday night, as well as stage monitors (note his speakers on the high stands on either side of the stage in the pictures of the show). The results were astoundingly good, and the monitors were said by performers to be among the best they had used.

His theater demonstration was a knockout, being limited only by the power that the hotel could provide. On Sunday morning JTR was able to get an additional 20A circuit, and this allowed them to get more volume. They had 7 channels at 2500 watts each of available amplification, but could not take advantage of it. The bass seemed more controlled with less distortion today, even though before the system sounded impressive.
Quote:
The JVC 4K projector that JTR had was the best calibrated and on 4K material did the best job.

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post #37206 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 07:30 AM
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None of that review above surprises me including the JVC calibration! Well done gentlemen! Wish I could have made it up. Hopefully next year
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post #37207 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyzer soze View Post
Do you know what Elton John demo that is in your pic?

Does anybody have a setlist of what was played?

Thank you in advance.
The Elton John demo is Indian Sunset from Elton John: The Million Dollar Piano. The sound and image quality are excellent.

Here is a list of the primary content we played:

Male Vocals:
Indian Sunset - Elton John: Million Dollar Piano
Feeling Good - Hit Man: David Foster & Friends (Michael Bublé)
Cryin' - Chris Botti in Boston (Steve Tyler)
Sixty Years On - Elton 60: Live at Madison Square Gardens
You Are So Beautiful - Slowhand at 70: Live at the Royal Albert Hall (Paul Carrack)
Gravedigger - Dave Matthews: Live at Radio City
Love is the Answer - Scorpions: MTV Unplugged in Athens (Rudolf Schenker)

Female Vocals:
I've Got You Under My Skin - Chris Botti in Boston (Katherine McPhee)
If It Hadn't Been for Love - Adele: Live At The Royal Albert Hall
Blanket - Jeff Beck: Live at Ronnie Scott's (Imogen Heap)
Let's Fall in Love - Diana Krall: Live in Paris
Midnight In Harlem - Eric Clapton: Crossroads Guitar Festival 2010 Disc 2 (Derek Trucks & Susan Tedeschi Band)

Duets:
Shape of My Heart - Chris Botti in Boston (Sting & Josh Groban)
Home - Hit Man: David Foster & Friends (Michael Bublé & Blake Shelton)
The Prayer - Hit Man: David Foster & Friends (Andrea Bocelli & Katherine McPhee)
Somewhere - Within Temptation: Black Symphony (Sharon den Adel & Anneke van Giersbergen)

Bands:
The Best Is Yet To Come - Scorpions: MTV Unplugged in Athens
Blue Collar Man - Styx: One With Everthing (with the Cleveland Youth Orchestra)
Renegade - Styx: One With Everthing (with the Cleveland Youth Orchestra)
Nothing Else Matters - Metallica: Through the Never
Faithfully - Journey: Live in Manila
Toad - Cream: Live at the Royal Albert Hall
Hoochi Coochi Man - Slowhand at 70: Live at the Royal Albert Hall (Eric Clapton)
Locomotive Breath - Jethro Tull: Live at Montreux
Bailando - Enrique Iglesias from Dolby Atmos Demo
Dirty Laundry - Eagles: Farewell I Tour Live From Melbourne
Hollow Years - Dream Theater: Live at Budokan
Thunderstruck - AC/DC: Live At Donington
Opening of Roger Waters The Wall (05:20-08:20)

Orchestral
The Imperial March - A John Williams Celebration
Lucerne Festival: Beethoven, Rimsky-Korsakov
The Star Spangled Banner - Hillary's America

Movie Clips:
Amaze - Dolby Atmos
Bear Scene - Brave
Art of Flight
Deadpool
Mad Max: Fury Road
Batman v Superman Trailer
Rogue One Trailer

UHD
LG Ultra-HD OLED - Chicago
LG Ultra-HD OLED - Wonders
Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer

High Impact AV
- ISF Level II Video Calibrator, THX-HAA Level III Audio Designer/Calibrator
- Colorimetry Research CR-250 Spectroradiometer & CR-100 Colorimeter, Klein K10-A
- Murideo Fresco SIX-G/SIX-A Generator/Analyzer (HDMI 2.x, HDR, UHD)
- ACO Pacific and Earthworks Class 1 microphones
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post #37208 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
The Elton John demo is Indian Sunset from Elton John: The Million Dollar Piano. The sound and image quality are excellent.

Here is a list of the primary content we played:

Male Vocals:
Indian Sunset - Elton John: Million Dollar Piano
Feeling Good - Hit Man: David Foster & Friends (Michael Bublé)
Cryin' - Chris Botti in Boston (Steve Tyler)
Sixty Years On - Elton 60: Live at Madison Square Gardens
You Are So Beautiful - Slowhand at 70: Live at the Royal Albert Hall (Paul Carrack)
Gravedigger - Dave Matthews: Live at Radio City
Love is the Answer - Scorpions: MTV Unplugged in Athens (Rudolf Schenker)

Female Vocals:
I've Got You Under My Skin - Chris Botti in Boston (Katherine McPhee)
If It Hadn't Been for Love - Adele: Live At The Royal Albert Hall
Blanket - Jeff Beck: Live at Ronnie Scott's (Imogen Heap)
Let's Fall in Love - Diana Krall: Live in Paris
Midnight In Harlem - Eric Clapton: Crossroads Guitar Festival 2010 Disc 2 (Derek Trucks & Susan Tedeschi Band)

Duets:
Shape of My Heart - Chris Botti in Boston (Sting & Josh Groban)
Home - Hit Man: David Foster & Friends (Michael Bublé & Blake Shelton)
The Prayer - Hit Man: David Foster & Friends (Andrea Bocelli & Katherine McPhee)
Somewhere - Within Temptation: Black Symphony (Sharon den Adel & Anneke van Giersbergen)

Bands:
The Best Is Yet To Come - Scorpions: MTV Unplugged in Athens
Blue Collar Man - Styx: One With Everthing (with the Cleveland Youth Orchestra)
Renegade - Styx: One With Everthing (with the Cleveland Youth Orchestra)
Nothing Else Matters - Metallica: Through the Never
Faithfully - Journey: Live in Manila
Toad - Cream: Live at the Royal Albert Hall
Hoochi Coochi Man - Slowhand at 70: Live at the Royal Albert Hall (Eric Clapton)
Locomotive Breath - Jethro Tull: Live at Montreux
Bailando - Enrique Iglesias from Dolby Atmos Demo
Dirty Laundry - Eagles: Farewell I Tour Live From Melbourne
Hollow Years - Dream Theater: Live at Budokan
Thunderstruck - AC/DC: Live At Donington
Opening of Roger Waters The Wall (05:20-08:20)

Orchestral
The Imperial March - A John Williams Celebration
Lucerne Festival: Beethoven, Rimsky-Korsakov
The Star Spangled Banner - Hillary's America

Movie Clips:
Amaze - Dolby Atmos
Bear Scene - Brave
Art of Flight
Deadpool
Mad Max: Fury Road
Batman v Superman Trailer
Rogue One Trailer

UHD
LG Ultra-HD OLED - Chicago
LG Ultra-HD OLED - Wonders
Star Wars: The Force Awakens Trailer
OT, but I read last night that Elton John came down with some sort of illness due to an infection he acquired in South America. He canceled the rest of the tour.
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post #37209 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 08:25 PM
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JTR Speakers Noesis 215RT 7-Channel Home Theater System: Best of AXPONA 2017

Quote:
No speaker system at AXPONA 2017 could hope to compete with the 7-channel rig JTR Speakers showed at AXPONA 2017. It’s not a practical outfit for someone like me who lives in a Philly row house. But, in terms of capability plus methodology, the system JTR founder and speaker designer Jeff Permanian showed—featuring seven of his Noesis 215RT ($3299 each) was a stunner.
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post #37210 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 08:39 PM
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Awesome!!!!

Great job!
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post #37211 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 10:42 PM
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Speakers should be kept in media stands to enhance the look of your room. They look extremely classy that way.

Ashley Furniture HomeStore
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post #37212 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
The Elton John demo is Indian Sunset from Elton John: The Million Dollar Piano. The sound and image quality are excellent.
Thank you so much for the full list.

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post #37213 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleyjohn View Post
Speakers should be kept in media stands to enhance the look of your room. They look extremely classy that way.
Huh?

These black fridges are my pride and joy! Not a media stand!
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post #37214 of 37229 Old 04-25-2017, 11:36 PM
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got a 780lb pallet on the way...
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post #37215 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by ashleyjohn View Post
Speakers should be kept in media stands to enhance the look of your room. They look extremely classy that way.
How did a nice, WAF friendly guy like you stumble into this Thread?

Opinions are not facts.
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post #37216 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 11:10 AM
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So I just upgraded my theater to 4k and 2:35.1 screen and thought I should probably upgrade my speakers while I am at it. The search for speakers went on for weeks and weeks and I finally put in the order today. I have coming to be Noesis 212RT L/R, Noesis 212HTR for the center, (2) Slanted 8HT-LP and (2) Captivator 1400's. These will be replacing Klipsch RF-7ll, RC-64ll, Speakercraft AIM8 Ceiling Speakers and (2) HSU VTF-15H MK2. Now the wait to receive them is going to kill me.

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post #37217 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckshotX5 View Post
So I just upgraded my theater to 4k and 2:35.1 screen and thought I should probably upgrade my speakers while I am at it. The search for speakers went on for weeks and weeks and I finally put in the order today. I have coming to be Noesis 212RT L/R, Noesis 212HTR for the center and (2) Captivator 1400's. These will be replacing Klipsch RF-7ll, RC-64ll and (2) HSU VTF-15H MK2. Now the wait to receive them is going to kill me.
Impressive, you mean 212 HT or a 210RT? or is a 212RT missing from the website like the cap 2400?
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post #37218 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Impressive, you mean 212 HT or a 210RT? or is a 212RT missing from the website like the cap 2400?
The 212RT is just being released so they are not on the website.
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post #37219 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 11:23 AM
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The 212RT is just being released so they are not on the website.
cool, congrats
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post #37220 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
How did a nice, WAF friendly guy like you stumble into this Thread?
I LOL'd, me thinks you should quote this in your sig

For me, and my wife, and mother who recently is staying with us think my tall refrigerator subs look good. And soon to be basically same height slightly smaller fridges I guess my wife is just more like me? I honestly think these plain black tall boxes look good in room. Maybe I'm just different but a wall of sound is my idea of pleasing visually...

Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Impressive, you mean 212 HT or a 210RT? or is a 212RT missing from the website like the cap 2400?
The 212RT is a new speaker Jeff just designed based off of a dual 12" pro audio woofer he just released (pics on FB) IT is tuned to 38hz just like the 210RT but will be bigger and taller and MTM config like the 215RT I think We don't have any pics yet but are eagerly awaiting.
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post #37221 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckshotX5 View Post
The 212RT is just being released so they are not on the website.
That sounds great ... literally.

Please post your progress and impressions.

Opinions are not facts.
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post #37222 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 09:50 PM
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Well, my curiosity got the best of me last week and I decide to try out some transducers. I wanted the crowsons but being in Canada and not having any way to order them without spending 1400$ CDN for the 2 I'd want, I went to the next thing I can get here, the Clark synthesis transducers.
I was trying to decide on what to get, so I got 2 x silvers to try with the option to take them back and get a platinum (about 2 x the force of the 2 silvers) powered by a inuke 1000 (they only take a few hundred watts each)

I have to say, they are pretty awesome! I was always on the fence since I have such an arsenal of subs and although the subs feel different, the Clark's have a very fun/impactful feeling to them, being on concrete sucks for the low end but these guys more than make up for it now.
It's funny how similar the Clark's feel to the OS pros. I had a buddy over last night and we were clipping my clones pumping the bass.... My God is it loud lol


I may still go with the platinum one but I will give it a few days. Im off for 4 straight and am excited to actual watch some movies!!

N
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Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #37223 of 37229 Old 04-26-2017, 10:33 PM
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Interesting on the transducers Nate. I have been reading Dom's threads on tactile response, interesting stuff...
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post #37224 of 37229 Old Yesterday, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thanks, Adam! I appreciate the kind words. I honestly don't know whether I am onto anything here or not. In theory, a ported sub should be able to sound just as good for music as a sealed sub. But, sounding good is a very subjective quality, and not everyone will hear exactly the same things in the same way. There are people who rightly or wrongly, do draw distinctions between the sounds of a sealed sub and a ported sub.

I was simply speculating whether there might be some difference in the sound, for some kinds of music, if a ported sub emphasized low bass (< 40Hz) frequencies more than a sealed sub did? Would someone either consciously or subconsciously register more low fundamentals with some acoustical instruments and consequently hear a difference between the two subs? The differences might be pretty subtle even if my hypothesis were correct, and I'm not sure that it is. But, it's interesting to speculate about it.

FWIW, I think that the LF Adjust could be a factor in creating some difference in sound even with a ported sub. For instance, if someone listened to music with the LFA set at 1/4, would that sound different than the same music played with the LFA set at 3/4? I can't be sure that it would, but I think so, because the second setting would make the very low bass (low fundamentals of notes which would not normally be emphasized) more prominent. And, if there were a significant sub boost added, I think that the low bass would sound proportionately even more prominent.

You would definitely want that for movies, or at least I would, but you might not want it set high for certain types of music. I find that LF adjustment very interesting. If there were anything to my theory about potentially hearing more low fundamentals with a ported sub, it's possible that the LFA could be used to attenuate some of that low bass for certain types of music, and then cranked for movies. The same approach could also be used for sealed JTR subs. Again, though, I think that the benefit of that would primarily be for music involving natural acoustical instruments, such as most classical and some jazz music.

Regards,
Mike

One of the more common debates on AVSforum is the matter of which is superior: sealed or ported subwoofers. Some say that ported subwoofers are no good for music, and are only useful for delivering big sound effects, or conversely that sealed subwoofers are “musical”, but lack the depth to deliver the ULF frequencies in movie blockbusters. While some subwoofers may certainly fit these stereotypes, the truth is considerably more complex. Ultimately, sound quality is far more a function of good engineering and choosing the right tool for the job rather than a question of sealed vs ported. While both alignments come with specific strengths and weaknesses, JTR subs are well designed and manage to avoid most of the drawbacks. This makes them equally beneficial for both music and movies with choice of configuration more dependent upon the room size and SPL/extension priorities than the content.


Music Frequencies

Music frequencies span the audible range of human hearing. While we are most sensitive to sounds in the midrange between 250 Hz - 2 Khz, the majority of musical instruments operate in the mid-bass region of 60 to 250 Hz, and some even reach the sub-bass region of 20 Hz to 60 Hz. More importantly, each musical sound will also induce harmonics at octaves below it's center frequency at 1/2 (first harmonic), 1/4 (second harmonic) or 1/8 (third harmonic). So a note at 160 Hz will produce harmonics at 80 Hz, 40 Hz and 20 Hz in the sub-bass region. A kick drum may center around 500 Hz, but it's harmonics and impact will be audible down to 50Hz well within the prevue of the subwoofer. On the other hand, most vocals and acoustic instruments get no where near the SPL volume or PVL particle velocity of special effects in a movie soundtrack.

So while output is a factor in selecting a sub for music, it's impulse response, phase coherence, group delay and ability to integrate with the main speakers will determine the system's optimum performance for music.




Movie Frequencies (LFE)

Movie soundtracks with large special effects will have tremendous output in the bass and sub-bass frequencies. Older movies tend not to go below 30 Hz which was the typical limitation of commercial theaters. With the advent of Dolby sound and THX, movies added content under 90 Hz for the LFE channel. Most films have a particular emphasis on the range between 30 Hz - 100 Hz which is where the human body is most sensitive to sympathetic vibration. Recently sound mixers have been venturing more often into the sub 20 Hz region for extreme ULF. This increases sympathetic vibrations, tactile immersion and he enhances the realism of large special effects.

The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts

So while impulse response, phase coherence, group delay are factors in selecting a sub for movies, SPL output to reference levels without compression and extension into the ULF frequencies down to 10 Hz (and below with room gain) will determine the system's optimum performance. Integration with the main speakers is still important, however usually the challenge is about selecting main speakers with the dynamics and SPL output to match the capability of the JTR subs.






Sealed Subwoofers

In a sealed subwoofer, the driver is responsible for 100% of the system’s output. Overall system performance is a function of the driver’s Thiele/Small parameters and enclosure volume, which together will determine system Q and the system’s resonant frequency. Below the resonant frequency, sealed subwoofers typically feature a shallow roll-off of 12dB/octave, which also corresponds with relatively low levels of group delay and ringing in the deep bass. It’s possible to get a wide variety of response profiles from sealed subwoofers by simply varying box volume, with a Qtc of 1.0 being achieved in a small 54L box, 0.707 in a medium sized 136L box, and 0.5 in a very large 525L enclosure. While a Qtc of 0.5 corresponds with a relatively extended response, there is a price to pay as this requires tremendous amounts of amplifier power and cone excursion at low frequencies. Subjectively speaking, lower Q boxes (0.707 and lower) tend to be characterized as relatively tight, while high Q enclosures can be a bit boomy without equalization due to their response hump in the mid-bass range. On the other hand, one benefit of higher Q enclosures is that they offer a greater degree of protection for the driver against high-energy, low-frequency transients.

http://audiojudgement.com/thiele-sma...ers-explained/

While not all sealed subwoofers are created equal, properly done the alignment has a lot to offer. Size is typically manageable, giving it a lot of flexibility in placement as well as a high WAF (wife acceptance factor). While small size tends to come at the expense of extension, sealed subwoofers generally have a shallow low-end roll-off profile, which corresponds with good performance in the time domain (i.e. group delay / ringing). What sealed subs lack in SPL output compared to a ported subs can be compensated by using multiple sealed subs to provide the extension of a sealed sub with the output of a ported design. Last but not least, sealed subwoofers offer some degree of protection against bottoming out the driver, though it is still possible with sufficient power and the right content.


Ported Subwoofers

In a ported subwoofer, both the driver and the port contribute to the system’s output. Porting augments the driver's output at the vent’s resonant frequency, which extends the subwoofer’s response and allows for substantially more output capability at the tuning point relative to a comparable sealed subwoofer. However, below the tuning frequency, the driver is no longer loaded by the enclosure, and acts as if it is in free air. This results in a much steeper roll off rate of 24dB/octave relative to the 12dB/octave slope typical of sealed subwoofers; as a consequence, group delay is typically higher in ported models. In addition, below the tuning frequency, the woofer is in danger of over-excursion without appropriate filters for protection, which can further exacerbate problems related to group delay. Of course, like sealed subwoofers, many different response profiles are possible by varying enclosure size as well as port length vs diameter (larger enclosures and longer ports result in lower tuning points). It should also be noted that ported enclosures are typically much larger than sealed enclosures.

At their tuning point, ported subs typically offer better low-end extension and greater output than sealed subs. However, there is no free lunch; deeply-tuned ported subwoofers tend to be quite large, making them less décor friendly as well as reducing placement options. Further, while ported subwoofers have a big output advantage down to their tuning point, below tune, frequency response drops off steeply while driver excursion goes off the charts. Subwoofer amplifiers usually employ DSP filters to protect the driver from over-excursion, which can result in an even steeper low end roll off, and consequently problems with group delay and ringing.


Direct Comparison

Because the design parameters are so different between sealed and ported subs, it might be hard to make a quantifiable direct comparison between the two for music and movies. However we are lucky enough that JTR uses the exact same drivers, amplifiers, cabinet construction materials and sophistication of DSP control in both the Captivator S2 sealed sub and the Captivator 4000ULF ported sub. The only difference being the ported versus sealed alignment and applicable DSP optimization to adjust the driver's parameters to the specific enclosure. Below is a comparison between the systems with information from data-bass.com.


JTR 18" Driver (Same)

• Hand built in the USA to JTR's specifications
• Ti frame originally introduced by TC Sounds
• Large half roll foam surrounds
• Carbon fiber dust caps
• 10" spiders for linearity even at high voice coil displacements
• Large ferrite based motors with a shorting ring
• Powerful BL^2/Re rating of 256
• Xmax of 66mm (linear), peak to peak (33mm each way)
• Xmech of 101mm, peak to peak (2" each way, 4" peak to peak)
• Weight around 60lbs (each)




SpeakerPower SP1-4000HT Amplifier (Same)

• Hand built in the USA to JTR specifications
• 4000 watts @ 2 ohms 40 Hz (1% THD)
• 2800 watts @ 4 ohms 40 Hz
• 1250 watts @ 8 ohms
• Custom DSP preconfigured (limiters, equalization, high pass filter) to match JTR driver/enclosure
• User DSP rotary controls for Volume, Low Frequency equalization, Crossover, Delay
• Post-filter feedback class-D topology, achieves ruler-flat frequency response, low distortion and very high damping
• Latest generation power MOSFET transistors and highly optimized output stage for up to 95% efficiency
• Full featured protection: DC, overload, low impedances, shorts, under/over-voltage, overheating.




JTR Cabinet Build (Same)

• Built for JTR by a custom woodworking shop that normally builds fine furniture
• Construction 18mm, 13ply, void free, Baltic Birch (several times stronger and more expensive than MDF)
• Heavy internal bracing, recessed front baffle
• Thick cotton and Polyester sound dampening
• Oversized bonding posts for heavy gauge speaker wire
• Heavy duty isolation feet
• Finish matt black paint (Cherry, Maple, Walnut, Zebra Wood and other veneers can be custom matched to existing cabinetry)




Captivator S2 (Sealed)

• Dimensions 40″x21″x18″ (HxWxD)
• Volume 8.76 cu ft (exterior)
• Weight 220 lbs
• Frequency 16 Hz - 157hz +/- 3db (under 10hz in room performance)




Captivator 4000ULF (Ported)

• Dimensions 41x40x20.5" (HxWxD)
• Volume 19.45 cu ft (exterior)
• Weight 265 lbs
• Frequency 10.5 Hz - 125hz +/- 3db




CEA Max Burst

The Cap 4000ULF definitely has the advantage over the S2 for greater maximum output at reference levels and deeper extension for high SPL movie special effects and very low ULF frequencies.







CEA Max Passing SPL

The Cap 4000ULF definitely has the advantage over the S2 for deeper extension less limited by distortion at reference SPL levels movie special effects and very low ULF frequencies.






Frequency Response

Sealed subwoofer's shallow roll off profile can make them quite suitable for smaller spaces thanks to room gain. Below a certain frequency (nominally denoted as F=(speed of sound / (2 x Longest Room Dimension)), the room naturally boosts the low end at a theoretical rate of 12dB/octave (less in the real world, as real walls are lossy barriers). This means that in spite of the fact that they may roll off earlier relative to ported subs, sealed subwoofers have the potential to offer extension down to 10Hz and below in the right room. In addition, their small size (excluding huge overdamped enclosures) makes them much more at home in smaller spaces. Conversely, big, deeply-tuned ported subwoofers are right at home in larger spaces where room gain is minimal (though they can work well in smaller spaces with a bit of EQ).

The S2 exhibits a flatter frequency response (+/- 1dB between 110-112 dB SPL) than the 4000ULF that could be better for music. It has a slower roll off which could be usable with room gain in smaller rooms or with the use of multiple S2's for reaching single digit extension for ULF on some movies.



The 4000ULF exhibits more variance in frequency response (+/- 2 dB between 104-106 dB SPL) that might be audible for music. However differences between the +/- 1 dB variation in the S2 and the +/- 2 dB variation in the 4000ULF would be hard to detect with varied program material (as opposed to static tone) and would be more than offset by the fluctuations caused by the acoustics of in-room response at various frequencies. The faster roll of on the 4000ULF is more than compensated by it's prodigious output to 10 Hz. It should reach single digits with room gain in all but the largest rooms.




Low frequency Adjust

The S2 LF adjust control at maximum the S2 exhibits at relatively flat FR down to about 15Hz and with the control set to minimum the response rolls off a bit quicker below 20Hz. The effect is largest at 10Hz and below where the response is cut about 4dB with the control at minimum. In either case the S2 is still employing significant low frequency boost in order to extend and flatten the response down to below 20Hz. The S2 was tested with the LF adjust at minimum for all of the high output testing. In that configuration the basic overall response fits within a 6dB total window from 15-170Hz. Increasing the LF adjust to maximum extends the low end response even further.



With the Cap 4000 LF adjust knob at maximum the response fits within a tight 2dB window from 10-120Hz outdoors. With the LF adjust at minimum the response below 25Hz gradually slopes down towards 10Hz. The maximum effect is at 10Hz where there is an 8dB range of adjustment. Even with the LF adjust at minimum the 4000-ULF may exhibit a rising "house curve" towards the deep bass in most rooms.

The 4000ULF definitely has a greater LF adjustment range, allowing you to dial it in for a wider range of room sizes. However since most musical soundtracks don't reach to the deepest frequencies that are boosted by room gain, this flexibility will mostly come into play for optimizing the system for home theater use.




Output Compression

There is no significant compression in the S2 through the first 4 output levels corresponding to 90-105dB nominal referenced to 50Hz. The 105dB sweep causes an insignificant compression of about 0.5dB in the upper octave of the measurement. The next 5dB increase for the 110dB measurement again produces little compression in the output with a negligible amount in the deep bass and just about 1dB in the upper bass octave. Another 5dB increase for the 115dB sweep produced a bit of driver excursion flutter or warmth at the bottom and finally a significant increase in output compression indicating that the system is now being driven towards the edge of its performance envelope. Compression of the output has now reached about 4dB below 20Hz and about 1.5-2dB in the upper bass octave. Another full 5dB increase in output demand from the S2 results in even greater levels of output compression and audible harmonic distortion in the deepest bass. It can be seen that the 120dB sweep produced virtually no more output below 22Hz indicating that the S2 was already out of headroom during the prior sweep.



It appears that there is significant low end boost to the 4000-ULF's response even with the LF adjust at minimum. During the 125dB sweep the 4000-ULF reaches 106dB at 10Hz, which is one of the strongest readings that's been recorded by Data-Bass at this frequency, during this test type. Output rises smoothly from there to just under 118dB at 20Hz and finally reaches 125dB up at 36Hz, before dropping a bit to about 122-123dB over the rest of the measurement bandwidth. The output below 35Hz is strong indeed and places this as one of the most powerful low frequency systems that has been Data-Bass tested. During these slow sine wave measurements there was some vent chuffing and wind noise noticed around the vent tuning, especially during the loudest couple of measurements. Also a hint of driver distortion below 20Hz on the loudest measurement. The cabinet itself was remarkably inert and dead throughout. Overall the 4000-ULF was quite clean even driven to the limits with the exception of a bit of vent air noise at the 10-15Hz frequencies.

Most acoustic instruments in music would not reach SPL levels of 115 d, so the compression in the S2 would be relatively inaudible. However the greater output at lower compression of the 4000ULF definitely makes it better for movies at reference levels.




Total harmonic Distortion

As SPL increases, the S2 exhibits higher THD below 30 Hz, while the 4000ULF shows higher THD above 30 Hz. This indicates that the THD increase in the S2 is primarily due to the electronics and amplifier rather than the drivers. It is likely related to the amplifier clipping or a limiter circuit. The SpeakerPower amplifier is quite powerful but in this case it appears to limit comfortably before the pair of 18" drivers. That is a good thing as this means it is unlikely that the drivers will be damaged by the amp.

The S2 has slightly lower THD above 30 Hz which could be beneficial for music. In addition, the S2's THD distortion below 30 Hz would probably be unnoticeable for music because most acoustic instruments never reach that low. However movie soundtracks are much more heavily processed and often bear small resemblance to live acoustical recordings. The THD difference above 30 Hz for the 4000ULF for cinema presentations would be barely noticeable, meaning either one would probably be suitable for music or movies.






Group Delay

The response of the S2 in the time domain shows no issues and a clean controlled decay. There is a very slight bump in the group delay way down at 18Hz likely due to a bit of signal shaping of the response but it is well below even 1 cycle of delay.



One concern with ported subs is weather the group delay might affect music performance. However, that’s where the limitations of human hearing come into play. Because of the relatively deep tuning points involved, the frequencies where group delay becomes a problem are areas where human hearing isn’t terribly sensitive to the issue; moreover, they’re frequencies that just aren’t particularly relevant to the vast majority of music. As such, when put in appropriate rooms and/or EQed to scrub off a rising low end resulting from room gain to achieve relatively flat in room response, it’s possible for ported subwoofers to be very capable performers, both for music and movies.

The group delay graph shows that the 4000-ULF is slightly higher than the S2 but remains well below 1 cycle of delay until way down near 13Hz where it starts to exceed 1 cycle slightly. At 13 Hz, this will be completely inaudible in music and unnoticeable in a LFE movie soundtrack.




Impulse Response

The S2 has slightly better impulse response for music with a shorter oscillation in the driver after the input signal. This could be audible in quiet musical passages with sharp transients like a kick drum, However the differences would be minimal in a complex movie soundtrack. Integration with the rest of the system could be effected if the impulse response of the main speakers was much faster (i.e.: full range electrostats or ribbons). However for most cone based speakers this would not be a problem.






Spectrogram

The Spectrogram shows a slight ringing in the 4000ULF that might effect it's performance on music. However in complex movie soundtracks this ringing would not be readily audible.






Waterfall Decay

The waterfall decay also shows a slight ringing in the 4000ULF that might effect it's performance on music. However in complex movie soundtracks this ringing would again not be readily audible.






BOTTEM LINE

The Captivator S2 is an excellent sub for music, tight, responsive with flat frequency response and more than adequate output for acoustical instruments. For music, it has a number of advantages like flat frequency response, fast impulse response, low THD above 30 Hz with minimal group delay and ringing that makes it cleaner for than the 4000ULF. For movies, with a little room gain in a moderately sized space, it could probably hold it's own compared to the mighty 4000ULF in output (which would might need to have it's LF adjust turned down to not overload the room). However in a larger room or in an open floor plan with access to other areas, the S2 would not keep up with the 4000ULF on movie soundtracks at high references SPLs between 120 dB and 130 dB. If you were in a normal sized room chasing after single digit response for movies, then multiple S2's might just be just the ticket with their slow roll off and deep extension. However the 4000ULF would be more cost economical with one sub achieving almost the same performance under 10 Hz as multiple S2's.

The Captivator 4000ULF is an extraordinary sub. It has the higher SPL output of a ported design with the deep extension to 10 Hz of a sealed alignment. That makes it unbeatable for movie soundtracks and special effects. This is especially true for larger rooms or open floor plans that would require multiple 18" subs by other manufacturers to achieve the same level of performance. For music, many ported subs exhibit much sloppier impulse response and greater ringing in the time domain with greater THD distortion. However Jeff did such a great job ofd engineering this sub that these potential drawbacks to ported a sub are seriously minimized. The S2 might be ever so slightly more articulate and faster to integrate into a high resolution music based system. But most people use their set up for both music and movies so the relative tradeoff is immaterial. The differences for music between the S2 and the 4000ULF are so small, the vast majority of people would hardly notice the difference. But the difference between the systems for movies is substantial in terms of raw output at reference SPLs.

If your priorities are a music and movie based system, it mostly comes down to room size and how large a sub your wife will accept. Smaller room or more music based, get the S2 and never look back. Larger room or movie based, get the 4000ULF (WAF permitting) and enjoy the satisfaction that comes from landing the biggest fish in the pond. If your priorities are mixed music and movies, or your room is mid-sized and can be enclosed from adjacent areas, then you can't go wrong with either sub, they are both excellent contenders.
hogues, tebling, mthomas47 and 4 others like this.

Last edited by Peterc613; Yesterday at 10:24 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post

The Captivator 4000ULF is an extraordinary sub. It has the higher SPL output of a ported design with the deep extension to 10 Hz of a sealed alignment. That makes it unbeatable for movie soundtracks and special effects. This is especially true for larger rooms or open floor plans that would require multiple 18" subs by other manufacturers to achieve the same level of performance. For music, many ported subs exhibit much sloppier impulse response and greater ringing in the time domain with greater THD distortion. However Jeff did such a great job ofd engineering this sub that these potential drawbacks to ported a sub are seriously minimized. The S2 might be ever so slightly more articulate and faster to integrate into a high resolution music based system. But most people use their set up for both music and movies so the relative tradeoff is immaterial. The differences for music between the S2 and the 4000ULF are so small, the vast majority of people would hardly notice the difference. But the difference between the systems for movies is substantial in terms of raw output at reference SPLs.

If your priorities are a music and movie based system, it mostly comes down to room size and how large a sub your wife will accept. Smaller room or more music based, get the S2 and never look back. Larger room or movie based, get the 4000ULF (WAF permitting) and enjoy the satisfaction that comes from landing the biggest fish in the pond. If your priorities are mixed music and movies, or your room is mid-sized and can be enclosed from adjacent areas, then you can't go wrong with either sub, they are both excellent contenders.
Wow.. thanks for such a great writeup.. I learn a lot from this..

Now, speaking of which sub, the S2 or 4000ULF... I notice you haven't compared them with the Orbit Shifter (home version) which I had.. according to Jeff, it'll equate 2 S2s above 20hz, and prob also beat out the 4000ULF.. in my room, i get a lot of room gain for bass below 20hz, so wouldn't that make the Orbit Shifter the best buy and bang for the buck? Plus, the driver is actually in a sealed enclosure so perhaps it has all the goodies of sealed sub and all the output of horn loading?
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@Peterc613

Great post. Thanks for taking the time!!

Chris
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I agree that Peter's post was very thorough and informative. But, I'm not quite sure why he chose to quote one of my posts from the JTR subwoofer thread in order to introduce the subject. His post could have stood on its own merits. And, my posts on this issue were made in response to a question about the differences between ported and sealed subs. I thought that the following hypothesis was interesting as a way to potentially explain differences in sound between the two types of subs with certain kinds of music. The post that Peter quoted was one of several follow-up posts on the subject of potential differences in the sound of sealed and ported subs. So, for context, here is my original post on the subject:


"Without getting into the question of whether sealed or ported subs are subjectively "better" for music, I would like to consider the issue of whether sealed and ported subs may sound slightly different from the standpoint of frequency response. Much of what I will be saying is somewhat hypothetical, but I believe that people could test some of it to determine whether it has any validity.

Let's start with Bear's statement that most music doesn't go below about 40Hz. I agree with that, and would even expand it to say that most music played by acoustical instruments (as distinguished from synthesized or electronically enhanced music) doesn't have much content below about 50Hz. But, here's where it gets a little hypothetical. Notes have fundamental tones, which are strongest, and they have undertones (typically called low fundamentals for lower frequencies) and overtones (typically called harmonics for higher frequencies). We aren't normally particularly aware of the undertones and overtones to notes. They fill out the sound without standing out as individual sounds. In fact, if there is a dip at a particular frequency, the undertones and overtones of the note can blend together to mask the missing fundamental; making us "hear" what sounds like the missing note.

Now, let's take a hypothetical example of a small sealed sub--say 10" or 12"--and compare it to the sound of a large 15" or 18" ported sub. The small sealed sub would produce much less SPL below 50Hz than the large ported sub would. Is it possible that the relatively greater amount of low frequency SPL from the ported sub could emphasize the low fundamentals of some notes more than the small sealed sub would? And, if so, is it possible that the greater emphasis on low fundamentals of notes could make certain types of acoustical music sound heavier, and thicker, compared to the small sealed sub? Could that contribute to the myth that sealed subs are somewhat quicker than ported subs?

Of course, that idea would presuppose that there is some threshold of SPL where an undertone begins to register acoustically, whether at a conscious or subconscious level, but I think that there may be something to the idea. Just as some of us may deliberately pick subs which emphasize low frequencies more, some people listening to certain types of acoustical music might want less emphasis on low bass. And, what happens when we boost the bass, as nearly all of us like to do post-calibration. At that point, we are deliberately boosting frequencies lower than about 80Hz (depending on crossovers) relative to higher mid-bass and upper bass frequencies. Could that also contribute to a perception of relatively thicker/slower bass for certain types of music, and for certain listeners?

That last part is an important consideration, as we won't all hear exactly the same frequencies with exactly the same acuity, nor will our brains process what we hear in exactly the same way. A good analogy would be to compare how much difference there is in our vision, not simply with respect to acuity or peripheral vision, but also with respect to the visible spectrum--colors. We know that we don't all see colors the same way. Could a greater sensitivity to low bass make the exaggerated presence of low fundamentals more noticeable to some people than to others?

Finally, with some subs, such as JTR subs, there is a feature like the Low Frequency Adjustment. That is a feature that nearly all of us would benefit from in 5.1 action movies. But, if that feature is engaged at the same level for acoustical music, will it further accentuate the low fundamentals of classical music, or older jazz music, in a way that might make the music sound relatively heavier? Would that give further credence to the idea that ported subs don't sound as good for music as sealed subs do, and that small sealed subs are "quicker" than large (more low-frequency capable) subs are?

I have posed these ideas as questions, in part because these are simply hypotheses. But, I have never seen this particular aspect discussed in conversations about the differences between ported and sealed subs. The conversations have nearly always concentrated on issues of group delay and tuning points rather than on the native frequency response of larger more powerful ported subs, and whether they might be emphasizing low fundamentals in a way that some people can perceive with some kinds of music. As noted earlier, this is something that could be tested by varying both the sub boost and the LF setting with different types of program material.

One nice thing about the whole issue, though, is the relative adaptability of our hearing. Most of us will fairly quickly become accustomed to the sound of our equipment, and of our particular rooms, so that they sound "natural" to us. So, absent a direct comparison between a small sealed sub and a large ported sub, both would probably sound perfectly fine in most cases. A direct exception would be that the small sealed sub wouldn't be able to hit the low notes in much electronically enhanced music with sufficient authority to be convincing.

The earlier posts on this subject created a train of thought that I wanted to share. I hope this is interesting to someone else. "


Again, this hypothesis was simply offered as a potential and partial explanation for why some people seem to hear differences between smaller sealed subs and larger ported subs for certain kinds of music. It certainly wasn't meant to suggest that one is better than the other. I still think that there may be something to the idea.

Regards,
Mike
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Wow, such great information - thanks Peter.

Given that the 4000ULF will provide more than enough output in any normal theater room (sealed), is there a reason for dual's if both will be upfront? To clarify, if you have an AT screen and any subs MUST go behind it, would dual 4000's make a noticeable difference?

Yes, I understand each room is different so lets assume it's a common setup we see on AVS... 20 x 15 room, sealed and soundproofed. Two rows of 4 for seating. I'm guessing you'd end up using 15 - 20% of the 4000ULF's capability, so the ONLY reason for dual would be smoothing. But I'm curious how much it would really matter if both would be up front anyways. Thoughts?
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