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Old 05-02-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Figure what? I have a hunch I will remain lossy listening. But I will test out today after the 215's arrive if I can perceive anything. If I think I can I will have my wife blind test me randomly between the same song lossless and lossy to make sure it's not bias.
You said it's not that much harder or more expensive to go lossless library. That may be so for any future purchases, but what do you do with a backlog of 8,000 tracks that are still lossy which you have no hard copies of? I want a service that will take my entire library and make it lossless without me having to track down each individual song.

I also want a service that will keep me up on all the artists I like, or even automatically dump their new stuff in my library. I don't have time to keep up with 500+ artists who each probably have at least 3-4 more albums out there since I was in college and had all the time in the world to look up music. I have spotify, apple music, and an itunes library that spans over basically 3 decades of my favorite tracks. Why in the world does apple music not have the ability to just look at my locally saved files and generate new tunes for me?

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I like how most studies just jump right past 3 total subwoofers. I actually don't recall anyone who has effectively tested just three locations. I might get around to this at some point just for fun....and due to the fact that the fourth corner in my room is a no-go since it is the entrance to the room from the staircase.
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In theory, 3 isn't ideal because of the asymmetry. Even in a width symmetrical layout, the power would be lopsided front to back.


The study by Harman did add a third subwoofer placed half way between two subs in opposite corners. The third sub was set to +6 dB over the two corner subs to cancel out second order modes:



Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers*

TODD WELTI AND ALLAN DEVANTIER
Harman International Industries Inc.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/00d...e976a1a72e.pdf


MODE CANCELING

By locating multiple loudspeakers in the listening room standing waves can be reduced by exploiting de- structive interference. The idea was first suggested by Toole [12]. Some have called this “mode canceling.” The concept is depicted in Fig. 2(c), where we have located two loudspeakers such that the odd-order modes are “eliminated.” Each subwoofer excites a series of standing waves, but the acoustical response of the odd-order modes at one side of the room is 180° out of phase with respect to the other side, thus the modes are driven destructively and the subwoofers effectively cancel each other. Unfor- tunately the even-order modes from each subwoofer are in phase and no mode canceling occurs for these standing waves.

In Fig. 2(d) we have added a third subwoofer at the center of the standing-wave pattern. This subwoofer is at the null of the odd-order modes and hence does not excite these modes. This leaves the two outside woofers to cancel one another just like those in Fig. 2(c). If the gain on the middle subwoofer is set to +6 dB relative to the other two (since there is only one subwoofer in the center trying to cancel two at the room boundaries) the second-order mode is effectively canceled. As a result the first three modes have been canceled. This is just an example; there are numerous possible configurations for various modes. It is interesting to note that some of the most severe cancellations occur between modes, and some of the most signifi-cant improvement from mode canceling also occurs there. Though modal excitation peaks at the mode’s resonant frequency, there is some excitation at nearby frequencies as well. Where the resonant frequencies of two or more modes are close to each other, they can overlap signifi- cantly. If there is an out-of-phase condition, severe can- cellations can and do occur. These interactions are all subject to optimization.

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
You said it's not that much harder or more expensive to go lossless library. That may be so for any future purchases, but what do you do with a backlog of 8,000 tracks that are still lossy which you have no hard copies of? I want a service that will take my entire library and make it lossless without me having to track down each individual song.

I also want a service that will keep me up on all the artists I like, or even automatically dump their new stuff in my library. I don't have time to keep up with 500+ artists who each probably have at least 3-4 more albums out there since I was in college and had all the time in the world to look up music. I have spotify, apple music, and an itunes library that spans over basically 3 decades of my favorite tracks. Why in the world does apple music not have the ability to just look at my locally saved files and generate new tunes for me?
Yea backlogging will take some effort and expense but I suspect my library needs are not as vast as some.

I have kinda procrastinated for years buying a dedicated HD and mass gathering all my music for this very reason. Lots of use of Youtube past few years. I do have maybe 50 albums on CD already so it's a faire start in respect to the cost of them. But yea much much more!

I wish I had an easy demo with someone that really knew the differences and set up needed.

I also suspect the service you wish for is not far out.

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Old 05-02-2017, 11:02 AM
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OT but has anyone here listened to Bowers and Wilkins P7 headphones? I am looking to get a decent pair of desktop cans for desk/late night study listening and can get the wireless versions for $280 through Verizon smart rewards. I did own a pair of Denon AHD600's in past and they were decent.

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Old 05-02-2017, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
OT but has anyone here listened to Bowers and Wilkins P7 headphones? I am looking to get a decent pair of desktop cans for desk/late night study listening and can get the wireless versions for $280 through Verizon smart rewards. I did own a pair of Denon AHD600's in past and they were decent.

Hanging at home waiting for 'that Fed ex call' for delivery
No, but I really like my Senn HD650s, and I've tried a lot of headphones.

That said, I've had really bad luck with internet advice on headphones. There seems to be a lot of variation on headphone taste...even more than speakers.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
@Peterc613

Thanks for all the information especially the MiniDsp screen shots. It looks interesting but will add another AD conversion in the signal chain and being RCA, will require some cable changes. On the positive side it will allow me to EQ the LFE channel, and set an HP filter. Do you (or anyone) know how low a MiniDsp HP filter can be set? Ideally, I like to set it at 18Hz.
The Nano AVR would work ( but not with atmos)
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Peterc613 View Post
The study by Harman did add a third subwoofer placed half way between two subs in opposite corners. The third sub was set to +6 dB over the two corner subs to cancel out second order modes:
That's what I was getting at. If you need to set one sub to +6db, you just cut your power by 1/4.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
That's what I was getting at. If you need to set one sub to +6db, you just cut your power by 1/4.
Meh, just double up on the drivers and then you are only at 1/2.....Keep a ton of headroom around and you should still be in good shape...
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Meh, just double up on the drivers and then you are only at 1/2.....Keep a ton of headroom around and you should still be in good shape...
Starting to sound a lot like 4 subs.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Starting to sound a lot like 4 subs.
What else is one to do when they already have 4 subs(cabinets) but only three places to put them? In actuality, Ill either keep mine stacked like as close as I can get to an SBA, or ill just line the front wall side to side with them if that doesn't yield good results. stacked in the front two corners could also work out tho.... Just like any room, with weird hallways and coves off to the sides, it'll take experimentation...

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Old 05-02-2017, 12:20 PM
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What else is one to do when they already have 4 subs(cabinets) but only three places to put them? In actuality, Ill either keep mine stacked like as close as I can get to an SBA, or ill just line the front wall side to side with them if that doesn't yield good results. stacked in the front two corners could also work out tho.... Just like any room, with weird hallways and coves off to the sides, it'll take experimentation...
I was just saying that one of the main reasons 3 subs is often not optimal is because of the power imbalance. Collocating 2 of 4 subs doesn't have a power imbalance.

Nothing wrong with that. We all have practical constraints.
I had the same issue, and I ended up getting best results with 2 in the front corners and 2 on the back wall at 1/4 3/4. YMMV.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:32 PM
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FWIW, Earl Geddes was always an advocate of using three subs, in a deliberately irregular configuration, as a way to improve frequency response. If I remember his approach correctly, he recommended one sub in or close to a corner to the front, another more-or-less at right angles to the first, and preferably on an opposing wall, and the third behind the MLP, and again preferably on an opposing wall. So, three different walls, but a deliberately irregular geometry as a way to energize as many modes as possible.

I have tried three subs in a Geddes-like configuration, and it worked pretty well, but I like four better.

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Old 05-02-2017, 12:44 PM
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Geddes 3 subs

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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
FWIW, Earl Geddes was always an advocate of using three subs, in a deliberately irregular configuration, as a way to improve frequency response. If I remember his approach correctly, he recommended one sub in or close to a corner to the front, another more-or-less at right angles to the first, and preferably on an opposing wall, and the third behind the MLP, and again preferably on an opposing wall. So, three different walls, but a deliberately irregular geometry as a way to energize as many modes as possible.

I have tried three subs in a Geddes-like configuration, and it worked pretty well, but I like four better.

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Why multiple subwoofers in sound reproduction?
https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Two Great Articles on Multiple Subwoofers by Dr. Earl Geddes
http://seriousaudioblog.blogspot.com...-multiple.html

Earl Geddes on Multiple Subwoofers in Small Rooms

USING MULTIPLE SUBWOOFERS TO IMPROVE BASS: THE WELTI / DEVANTIER AND GEDDES APPROACHES
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...devantie-html/
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:09 PM
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It really depends on the room. there are lots of rooms like mine, where both approaches just don't work very well. Sometimes where the sub works best, it the worst placement to look at lol and vice versa.

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Old 05-02-2017, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
OT but has anyone here listened to Bowers and Wilkins P7 headphones? I am looking to get a decent pair of desktop cans for desk/late night study listening and can get the wireless versions for $280 through Verizon smart rewards. I did own a pair of Denon AHD600's in past and they were decent.

Hanging at home waiting for 'that Fed ex call' for delivery
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No, but I really like my Senn HD650s, and I've tried a lot of headphones.

That said, I've had really bad luck with internet advice on headphones. There seems to be a lot of variation on headphone taste...even more than speakers.
+1 on the Senn HD650 & HD598 (I have both and love them).

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Old 05-02-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
You said it's not that much harder or more expensive to go lossless library. That may be so for any future purchases, but what do you do with a backlog of 8,000 tracks that are still lossy which you have no hard copies of? I want a service that will take my entire library and make it lossless without me having to track down each individual song.

I also want a service that will keep me up on all the artists I like, or even automatically dump their new stuff in my library. I don't have time to keep up with 500+ artists who each probably have at least 3-4 more albums out there since I was in college and had all the time in the world to look up music. I have spotify, apple music, and an itunes library that spans over basically 3 decades of my favorite tracks. Why in the world does apple music not have the ability to just look at my locally saved files and generate new tunes for me?
For me collecting music is a big part of this Audio/Video hobby of mine...I have enjoyed spending hours in record stores back in the 60's & 70's searching before the internet. Then with the digital age I started doing my searches online as well as the local vinyl stores. I also totally understand not having the time, as there was probably a 15 to 20 year gap where I didn't have much time, nor much disposable income for purchases. Back in the 90's I amassed a very large collection of MP3s mostly downloaded which I still have, but never play. But you don't have to replace your MP3s, just start buying lossless files for your new purchases to see if you can hear a difference, if not continue on with the mp3s . With streaming services like Tidal, I believe you are not far away from having your cake and eating it too!
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:33 PM
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No, but I really like my Senn HD650s, and I've tried a lot of headphones.

That said, I've had really bad luck with internet advice on headphones. There seems to be a lot of variation on headphone taste...even more than speakers.
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+1 on the Senn HD650 & HD598 (I have both and love them).
Open back significant advantage? Can they be heard if I use them late night or early morning next room over?

I was only interested in the B&W p7's as I can get them discounted. I was also intrigued by the new Oppo cans...

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:36 PM
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Few points thus far

-Not surprised by the size as my DIY subs are bigger and tad taller. But surprised by the weight. I just misjudged the weight of my DIY subs as heavier then because they feel about the same on the hand truck and tipping to gauge the weight by feel. Maybe my subs are 40lbs heavier. Moved the 215's in myself

-Phase plug is HUGE! Like the size of a fat finger sticking out of there lol. I assumed it was gonna be about 1.5"-2". Looks cool at prob 4" or so.

-Binding posts are about equal to a major culture shock. They are truly MASSIVE!

-Woofers smell funny, some kind of coating?

-I still perceive them to sound big in spite of some warning me they will not with 60 horizontal dispersion. Maybe I'm just not an audiophile, saves money on DACS, $1000 CD players, Tube amps and popsicle sticks


-bass is truly ridiculous, I can only imagine how Axpona was as I can tell the woofers are broken in. I was essentially able to go from the JBL4722 and my DIY 21 could do together all into a single 17.5x22.5 footprint. My initial takeaway is the BMS cd has a certain sizzle, sparkly-ness, airy-ness quality that is nice the JBL 2453H-SL did not. I don't equate it to 'warming' or adding to the sound but like a welcoming clarity, clearness, snappy-ness.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:38 PM
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OT but has anyone here listened to Bowers and Wilkins P7 headphones? I am looking to get a decent pair of desktop cans for desk/late night study listening and can get the wireless versions for $280 through Verizon smart rewards. I did own a pair of Denon AHD600's in past and they were decent.

Hanging at home waiting for 'that Fed ex call' for delivery
BTW, I recently bought a pair of Monolith M1060 Planar Headphones, since the internet has been going so nuts about them. Burned again by internet headphone reviews. They sound alright, but I like the HD650s much better. I'm going to to return the Monoliths.

The M1060s have maybe an octave lower bass, but I found the low bass in headphones surprisingly unpleasant. It gave me a headache, and lacked the fun feeling of bass that you get on your skin, rather than bass on your head. The HD650s have a good balance, IMO.

Also, the M1060s are double the weight of the HD650s, making them even more unpleasant to listen to.

The rest sounded very similar. Overall neutral sound. The treble on the HD650s is a bit smoother/less fatiguing.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:47 PM
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Open back significant advantage? Can they be heard if I use them late night or early morning next room over?

I was only interested in the B&W p7's as I can get them discounted. I was also intrigued by the new Oppo cans...
The HD650s have a little sound leakage...not too bad though. Certainly not something you can hear in the next room. Right next to someone wearing them, you can slightly hear it, but probably not enough to keep someone up, unless you are blasting them. On the plus side, you can hear people talking to you, which is sometimes nice, and they get more neutral bass than closed back headphones. Overall, I think it makes them more pleasant to wear, unless you need the isolation.

After those Monolith M1060s, I don't think I'm going to try planar magnetic headphones again. Aside from the weight, the only thing I gained over the HD650s (a bit more bass extension), it turns out I didn't actually want in headphones.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
OT but has anyone here listened to Bowers and Wilkins P7 headphones? I am looking to get a decent pair of desktop cans for desk/late night study listening and can get the wireless versions for $280 through Verizon smart rewards. I did own a pair of Denon AHD600's in past and they were decent.

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Yes that is a great deal for the P7W, I would jump on that.

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Old 05-03-2017, 07:15 AM
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Yes that is a great deal for the P7W, I would jump on that.


Yea 280 for wireless, 240 for regulars. I prob wouldn't use wireless much and I may be getting a quality little wireless device that is a wireless go between the headphone line and the jack on your source. But 40 bucks not bad



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Old 05-03-2017, 07:24 AM
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Official JTR speaker thread

Out of curiosity has anyone else been unsatisfied listening to CDs via Oppo BD player? I have tried this thing from Triple8s to 4722s to the 215s now and I can't explain it but just doesn't sound great IMO. Usually I listen via iTunes from my dedicated Mac mini...
A very fair acknowledgement is current room acoustics really suck.

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Old 05-03-2017, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Yea 280 for wireless, 240 for regulars. I prob wouldn't use wireless much and I may be getting a quality little wireless device that is a wireless go between the headphone line and the jack on your source. But 40 bucks not bad



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Keep in mind that they are not the same headphones, pretty much everyone who heard both says that the wireless is the better one used via it's wires. The wireless either has a different driver or tuned differently due to it's different cups to hold the battery and electronics for BT.


back to topic.....
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Open back significant advantage? Can they be heard if I use them late night or early morning next room over?

I was only interested in the B&W p7's as I can get them discounted. I was also intrigued by the new Oppo cans...
Airy and more open bass, than boomy. And no, they cannot be heard in the next room, unless you listen to abnormally high levels. I used it all day in my open cubicle at office, and haven't heard a single complaint from those around me. That said, I love the sound of my Grado Labs SR325e.

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Old 05-03-2017, 11:59 AM
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Another AXPONA review (start at 17:30):


High Impact AV
- ISF Level II Video Calibrator, THX-HAA Level III Audio Designer/Calibrator
- Colorimetry Research CR-250 Spectroradiometer & CR-100 Colorimeter, Klein K10-A
- Murideo Fresco SIX-G/SIX-A Generator/Analyzer (HDMI 2.x, HDR, UHD)
- ACO Pacific and Earthworks Class 1 microphones
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:48 PM
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^Hmmm praising cables...at least the JTR kudos were about bass, impact, and "coffin" size subwoofers lol.


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Old 05-03-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
^Hmmm praising cables...at least the JTR kudos were about bass, impact, and "coffin" size subwoofers lol.


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The best part is the coffin sized subwoofers they were referring to were the 215RT's that were used as 'surrounds'!!
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Old 05-04-2017, 03:21 AM
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But you don't have to replace your MP3s, just start buying lossless files for your new purchases to see if you can hear a difference, if not continue on with the mp3s .
Ignorance is bliss. Don't train the ears.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:19 AM
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Here is a spy photo taken by Tesseract of the 212RT:


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- ACO Pacific and Earthworks Class 1 microphones
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215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp , noesis
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