Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1259 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37741 of 37925 Old 08-10-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post
^

Thank you, Desertdome.

That's strange. 1% THD @ 1khz. It's a little deceptive for those who wouldn't think to dig further. I was thinking about using the Nord amps, but I read about one guy having a number of issues with them and having to return them. Not sure if I want to potentially deal with that, being in Canada.

I think I'll give the D-Sonic's a go and see what they can do. I don't hear about many dissatisfied customers with the current modules.
And just to confirm that, I am another happy customer of Dsonic amps. It is now the longest standing unit in my rack with absolutely no plans to replace it.
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post #37742 of 37925 Old 08-10-2017, 05:46 PM
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Thanks, Beast!
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post #37743 of 37925 Old 08-10-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Rather than guessing about distances and height, the real thing to do is just measure it. Unless you have nulls, it's all fixable with EQ, anyway. I've had some speakers where you can move your head up and down a couple feet and hear a pretty big shift. The JTRs behave pretty well in that respect.

The bigger problem you may run into against the wall is more problems with bass...much bigger peaks and nulls.
Sorry, not feeling well last couple days so I was incognito...Yea I'm aware you want to stay off walls. Thats why I'm splitting the rear wall and 3/4 point of room. 3/4 point is nasty natural null and we know what walls do. 3ft 3inch off wall is enough, I haven't measured yet but my ears say so, to avoid bloating issues. Still close to 3/4 point but I'm going to plop an 18" single woofer on each side wall close to it and inline with seating. Plus a near field. This may cause more than basic 2channel for music though if bass is not good enough...

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post #37744 of 37925 Old 08-10-2017, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Sorry, not feeling well last couple days so I was incognito...Yea I'm aware you want to stay off walls. Thats why I'm splitting the rear wall and 3/4 point of room. 3/4 point is nasty natural null and we know what walls do. 3ft 3inch off wall is enough, I haven't measured yet but my ears say so, to avoid bloating issues. Still close to 3/4 point but I'm going to plop an 18" single woofer on each side wall close to it and inline with seating. Plus a near field. This may cause more than basic 2channel for music though if bass is not good enough...
I guess I misread your post.
Anyway, if you have a closed rectangular room, you can use that REW room simulator to get a quick idea. Not as good as measuring, but I still find it very helpful.
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post #37745 of 37925 Old 08-10-2017, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Here's a good article. I've never tried it, but without one, I do have the problem they describe with some cancellation from front wall reflections. Some people address this with a couple feet of insulation as acoustical treatment.
http://www.pmiltd.com/published%20ar...ed%20Again.pdf

Aside from the extra work&cost, it seems like the only downside of baffle walls is that you can no longer move/angle/replace speakers.

Also, after hearing The Savoy, I will vouch for Nyal.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...-of-the-month/

Carp is getting excellent results with the insulation approach.
Yea, I'm working with Shawn Byrne who is from the same school of thought as Nyal, particularly side wall reflection management and not absorption as well as no more than 25-30% absorption maximum among other theories.

Ive never heard even one 'meh' comment about the savoy. Wish I lived closer!

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SBIR is mitigated if your speakers are at least 36" from the front wall (I prefer 40-42") and your subwoofers are closer than 36" and you use an 80 Hz crossover. Low frequency boosting and diffraction can be done with the existing front wall. There are trade offs either way.

Disadvantages of a baffle wall:
  • You are locked into speaker and subwoofer locations. Since both side walls are rarely constructed the same, it is beneficial to be able to move the subwoofers laterally to find the acoustic 1/4 points. The goal of subwoofer placement at the front of the room is to reduce the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd axial width modes. This makes sure all seats in a row have the same bass response. You also can't play with toe-in of the speakers. I position subwoofers bassed on boundary gain, mutual coupling, and room mode suppression.
  • You have shrunk the room's length. Yes, a baffle wall will act just like the other walls and reflect some bass back in to the room. Some even make the baffle thicker than their regular walls. By having a shorter acoustic room, you have a narrower area for optimum seating placement. Your quarter points are base on the measurement of the room from baffle wall to rear wall.
  • In a the size of most home theaters, the subwoofers often become part of the baffle immediately beside a speaker. You end up with a true baffle on one side of the speaker and the subwoofer on the other that really isn't acting like a baffle.

I've measured and calibrated dlbeck's room many times. I would have preferred placement options vs the baffle wall. Also, his baffle wall doesn't measure like the theoretical optimum.

I like to put a furring strip across the ceiling 4-6" out from the front wall. Then staple 3.5" UltraTouch across the width. The UltraTouch comes in 93" lengths and 23" widths. Cover in a few pieces of 70" wide grill cloth from Parts Express.


The Noesis 215RT has its lowest impedence at around 60 Hz of 2.6 ohms. This means the amp is outputting 600+ watts. Each amp has a 1kW power supply so can provide plenty of peak output. Note that your amp is spec'd with RMS power vs peak levels used for Pascal and other modules.
Thanks for the amp reassurance!

Speakers will not be that far off front wall. Room is only 20ft 5 inches deep and I am modeling about 30 inches for false wall. I need to keep it as minimal as possible because my Sony 40es throw distance and room length.

Do you think modeling my two big subs sandwiching the center 215 is best or split in between L&C and R&C speakers to keep and even 'imaging' effect? I'm not motivated to build a baffle wall really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post
^

Thank you, Desertdome.

That's strange. 1% THD @ 1khz. It's a little deceptive for those who wouldn't think to dig further. I was thinking about using the Nord amps, but I read about one guy having a number of issues with them and having to return them. Not sure if I want to potentially deal with that, being in Canada.

I think I'll give the D-Sonic's a go and see what they can do. I don't hear about many dissatisfied customers with the current modules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
And just to confirm that, I am another happy customer of Dsonic amps. It is now the longest standing unit in my rack with absolutely no plans to replace it.

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post #37746 of 37925 Old 08-12-2017, 12:46 PM
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Has this been posted up yet? I did a quick search, and haven't seen it on this thread?!?!?!

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post #37747 of 37925 Old 08-12-2017, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Has this been posted up yet? I did a quick search, and haven't seen it on this thread?!?!?!

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You are late to the party
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post #37748 of 37925 Old 08-12-2017, 04:18 PM
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You are late to the party
FML!!!!!!

You guys never freakin invite me....
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post #37749 of 37925 Old 08-13-2017, 03:57 PM
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FML!!!!!!

You guys never freakin invite me....
The main question is have you seen the vid of the duals in Jeff's shop 'flying the hat?' I was late on that and double posted like a month late...
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post #37750 of 37925 Old 08-15-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I like to put a furring strip across the ceiling 4-6" out from the front wall. Then staple 3.5" UltraTouch across the width. The UltraTouch comes in 93" lengths and 23" widths. Cover in a few pieces of 70" wide grill cloth from Parts Express.
I'm wanting to use this idea! Do you use some type of frame to staple to grill cloth to? Any pics you could possibly post?

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post #37751 of 37925 Old 08-15-2017, 08:18 AM
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I'm wanting to use this idea! Do you use some type of frame to staple to grill cloth to? Any pics you could possibly post?
If you use a power staple gun, you can put a few staples through the insulation to tack it to the furring strip and then staple the grill cloth over it the same furring strip. This increases the staples holding the insulation. I'm not sure it is necessary, but my customer used small pieces of rubber to stable through to act as "washers" for the staples. This was to help prevent any tear through. One could also tack up the insulation and then put another thin piece of wood over it and screw into the furring strip. This would pinch the insulation and allow one to staple the grill cloth to the thin piece of wood.

I just checked and don't have any pictures. The customer's screen would have to come down to take some.

I heard your old LS9's a few weeks ago. They sound great as mains in a large home theater.

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post #37752 of 37925 Old 08-15-2017, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
If you use a power staple gun, you can put a few staples through the insulation to tack it to the furring strip and then staple the grill cloth over it the same furring strip. This increases the staples holding the insulation. I'm not sure it is necessary, but my customer used small pieces of rubber to stable through to act as "washers" for the staples. This was to help prevent any tear through. One could also tack up the insulation and then put another thin piece of wood over it and screw into the furring strip. This would pinch the insulation and allow one to staple the grill cloth to the thin piece of wood.

I just checked and don't have any pictures. The customer's screen would have to come down to take some.

I heard your old LS9's a few weeks ago. They sound great as mains in a large home theater.
Man I loved those LS9's, I've wondered if they made the trip back to Nebraska unscathed in the back of that pickup truck. I regret selling them honestly.

How do you think the LS9's compare to the JTR215? I currently run Danleys, have never heard the 215's but would love to hear them and how they compared to the LS9 and my active SH100B

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post #37753 of 37925 Old 08-15-2017, 04:20 PM
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Man I loved those LS9's, I've wondered if they made the trip back to Nebraska unscathed in the back of that pickup truck. I regret selling them honestly.

How do you think the LS9's compare to the JTR215? I currently run Danleys, have never heard the 215's but would love to hear them and how they compared to the LS9 and my active SH100B
Unfortunately, they didn't make it all the way to Nebraska . . . because Ryan lives in Iowa just a few miles east of Nebraska.

I probably shouldn't say anything since my LS6's are up for sale. I bought 3 of the 215RT's what were at AXPONA.

The 215RT's are tuned much lower - 17Hz vs ~26Hz and they have over twice the bass displacement of an LS9. Organ music that pushed my LS6's to the limits will hardly make the 215RT woofers move. They have so much headroom that distortion is super low for most listening levels. When using LS6's or 215RT's fullrange in my room, the 215RT's easily win. They also have a better frequency response in the bass than the LS6's. It is the horn and coaxial compression driver that are really special on the 215RT. There is a clarity and naturalness that the LS speakers just can't achieve. The highs are more extended, but never harsh. The soundstage is deeper with the 215RT's and the imaging is always locked in. What I mean by that is on the LS6's the center imaging would move left to right and was more diffuse. It was a little like the speakers were out of phase. After living with the 215RT's for several months now and getting through more of my catalog of content, I know made the right decision to buy them.

My parents stopped by last week. My dad has listened to my LS6's many times for extended sessions. He hadn't had a chance to sit down and listen to my 215RT's yet. He said he has never heard a speaker so natural in its presentation of instruments and voices as my 215RT's. He likes attending live organ concerts. I played some Toccata and Fugue and he said it sounded like I had a real organ in the room. He is coming back for a more extended listening session soon.

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post #37754 of 37925 Old 08-16-2017, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
If you use a power staple gun, you can put a few staples through the insulation to tack it to the furring strip and then staple the grill cloth over it the same furring strip. This increases the staples holding the insulation. I'm not sure it is necessary, but my customer used small pieces of rubber to stable through to act as "washers" for the staples. This was to help prevent any tear through. One could also tack up the insulation and then put another thin piece of wood over it and screw into the furring strip. This would pinch the insulation and allow one to staple the grill cloth to the thin piece of wood.

I just checked and don't have any pictures. The customer's screen would have to come down to take some.

I heard your old LS9's a few weeks ago. They sound great as mains in a large home theater.
I certainly don't miss my LS9's!
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post #37755 of 37925 Old 08-21-2017, 09:03 PM
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So I'm in the process of moving so will have a new main setup. Which means some decisions to make. I'll certainly need some help!

So my plan is to go AT screen and have a storage room behind there that I can utilize currently.

I currently have 3x 228HT but will need to fill out my setup. It seems JTR is still an awesome player in the high efficiency speaker game. Has anything surpassed them in the past 5 years for a similarly priced product?

If I stay with JTR, what would you recommend? My current thought is either slanted 8s for rears or upgrade the LR and move two of the 228HT to the rear. I'm only planning on going 5.1.

For subs I likely will be running dual Elemental Designs dual 15s sealed along with a Craigsub CS18 (test version with built in amp). Because of this I don't think I need more extension from the mains but I can't say it wouldn't be nice.

I haven't closed on the place yet so it's still a little hypothetical and trying to figure out the best ways to think about things.

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post #37756 of 37925 Old 08-22-2017, 10:56 PM
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Is there a compelling reason to get the 212RT over the 212T for L/C/R behind an AT screen in a 22'L x 12'W x 8'H dedicated room with adequate subwoofers for movie use? The 212T seem like a great value, but what are the compromises? Will be either 5.2.4 or 7.2.4 when the room is finally finished.
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post #37757 of 37925 Old 08-23-2017, 06:04 AM
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Is there a compelling reason to get the 212RT over the 212T for L/C/R behind an AT screen in a 22'L x 12'W x 8'H dedicated room with adequate subwoofers for movie use? The 212T seem like a great value, but what are the compromises? Will be either 5.2.4 or 7.2.4 when the room is finally finished.
The 212T is definitely a sweet spot in value with the sale, and are probably excellent.

The 3-way R series have better off-axis response, more extended treble, and cleaner midrange for vocals, since the vocals aren't in a crossover frequency. It depends on how important that last 5-10% for music is for you.
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post #37758 of 37925 Old 08-23-2017, 07:13 AM
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The 212T is definitely a sweet spot in value with the sale, and are probably excellent.

The 3-way R series have better off-axis response, more extended treble, and cleaner midrange for vocals, since the vocals aren't in a crossover frequency. It depends on how important that last 5-10% for music is for you.
Only music in soundtracks.

Do you know if its the same compression driver?
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post #37759 of 37925 Old 08-23-2017, 07:54 AM
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Only music in soundtracks.

Do you know if its the same compression driver?
The R series use a coaxial 2-way compression driver. That's THE difference (aside from different crossovers - 3-way vs 2-way.)

The non-Rs use a 1-way compression driver.

That coaxial compression driver is an expensive part, and the extra complexity in the crossover is expensive the way Jeff makes them.

The money is well spent.
That said, good 1-way compression drivers keep getting better, and I'm sure the non-Rs have good ones.
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post #37760 of 37925 Old 08-25-2017, 12:46 PM
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I've been listening to my JTR Noesis 215RT speakers quite a bit in the past week. I have a few more adjustments to do with my acoustic treatments and even ordered some more treatments today.

Here are measurements of the left and right speaker from 3 ft away. The straight pink line is the loopback measurement for reference. The slight dip at 400-500 Hz is from a reflection. You can see that these are extremely flat speakers. If your head is lower than the center of the horn, then the higher frequencies have a slight rolloff that is very pleasant.



The 60 degree horn on these is very similar in size to the horn of the Danley SM60F. The large size allows for a low crossover point of 350 Hz and the 60 degree angle allows for the depth necessary for low frequency pattern control. By having the same vertical and horizontal dispersion, the listeners in all rows of a home theater get equal sound. With a horn that changes vertical vs horizontal, the vertical dispersion becomes narrower at higher frequencies. On a JTR speakers, 1 kHz and 4 kHz will be similar. On a 90 x 45 horn, the directivity will change. This is beneficial for long throw commercial theaters or outdoors, but not in a home theater.



These are truly a single point source speaker with the sound originating from the center of the horn completely time aligned and in phase.

I mounted a barn door track on both sides of the room so I could slide treatments back and forth and change out acoustic treatments. Because of the directivity of horn and pattern control I found that the sound became harsh if there was too much low frequency absorption at the sides. This was caused by two things. First, I initially used an acoustic panel designed to have more low frequency absorption. Switching to a broadband absorption panel fixed the issue. Second, absorption needs to be placed at the sides where the frequency response at the side becomes fullrange. If the absorption is too close to the front wall, only low frequency energy is hitting it and being absorbed. This again ruined the sound at the listening position.

I now have the room almost how I want it with the exception of 3 panels. I wish my room had a lower noise floor, but there isn't much I can do about it at this point. With regard to the speakers and system as a whole, I really don't think I've heard anything that sound this good. The low frequency extension, high frequency extension, focus, clarity, soundstage, smooth frequency response, and dynamics that all add up to an incredible listening experience.

To change the topic slightly, my Lab Gruppen rep stopped by last week so I invited him to my house. We spent a couple hours comparing some LG amps to my Cherry Maraschino amps by checking maximum output and clipping behavior. We used the E 8:2 and the D Series 40:4L. Both amps ran completely silent and both had no hiss out of the 215Rt. Both of these amps have Rational Power Management. This allows one channel to use lots of power while another channel uses a small amount. On the 4 channel amps, two channels can use half the power for mains while the 3rd channel can use the half of the power for a subwoofer. Or, if you use a 4 channel amp for LCR the maximum power is actually split up among the three speakers. You aren't really wasting an amp channel that is sitting idle.

The E 8:2, even when used with a single channel, had 6 dB less output than my Maraschino. The 40:4L on the other hand matched it very closely. It doesn't distribute all its power to a single channel so had much more output available on other channels, too. I'm thinking about offering the E series going forward. With an 80 Hz XO and the high efficiency JTR speakers, they will make a great choice for external power. They are auto on/off, can be used in a living room since they are silent, and an amp can be used for a main and surround with the majority of the power going to the main when necessary. A pair of the the E 10:4 series will provide some nice headroom for a 7 channel system.
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post #37761 of 37925 Old 08-25-2017, 01:20 PM
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Im curious about your graph and the science about graphs in general. I notice at the lower end its more of a smooth sweeping response but in the middle/top end it looks more rough/jagged? is that normal/prefered or should in perfect graph world all be smooth edges?

jbl m2/revel salon2 does this also i think...

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post #37762 of 37925 Old 08-25-2017, 09:53 PM
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Im curious about your graph and the science about graphs in general. I notice at the lower end its more of a smooth sweeping response but in the middle/top end it looks more rough/jagged? is that normal/prefered or should in perfect graph world all be smooth edges?

jbl m2/revel salon2 does this also i think...
That's going to happen in an unsmoothed graph, unless you're in an anechoic chamber.
That is remarkably flat for an in-room response.
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post #37763 of 37925 Old 08-26-2017, 02:03 PM
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^^^ Impressive stuff, @desertdome .

Is that measurement a sum of your left and right channels?
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post #37764 of 37925 Old 08-27-2017, 08:23 PM
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post #37765 of 37925 Old 08-28-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post
^^^ Impressive stuff, @desertdome .

Is that measurement a sum of your left and right channels?
There are actually two "squiggly" lines in the image. They separate a little more in the bass region. Once is the left speaker and one is the right speaker. I used the default colors so they are a little hard to see.

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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Desertdome what drivers are in the JTR Noesis 215RT and Noesis 212T does Jeff use custom made eminence drivers or drivers from AEspeakers. The 215RT's at Axpona sounded great.
They are custom made Eminence drivers designed by Jeff. Some of the premium/exotic parts are sourced elsewhere and supplied to Eminence for these specific drivers. I have 8 15" AE Speakers IB drivers in a pair of infinite baffle manifolds. I haven't used them for music listening since getting the Noesis 215RT's. The bass is exceptional on the 215RT's!

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post #37766 of 37925 Old 08-28-2017, 12:15 PM
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Hey @desertdome you mind showing that graph again with the y axis constrained to 5dB increments?

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post #37767 of 37925 Old 08-29-2017, 07:50 PM
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I would love to know how the new JTR 3way 215 speakers compare with Klipsch Jubilees with music.

I'm also looking to purchase the new JTR Pro passive double 18 vented sub which is at a great price point right now.
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post #37768 of 37925 Old 08-30-2017, 07:39 AM
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Would the 228HT work as a horizontal center channel with 212T? What about the 210RT?

Cap 1400 already on order, thinking of selling Salk system, and going all JTR with veneers.
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post #37769 of 37925 Old 08-30-2017, 04:17 PM
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I have dinner on the grill and I'm trying to watch my kiddos so this is going to be very abbreviated... In between chasing kids around, I just got my new 212RT's wired up. I literally only had a few minutes to listen, but let me say this...

I've been a heavy lurker on AVS for the past 5-6 years, planning on someday building my own HT. I'm finally doing it (98% done) and have been waiting years to hear the fabled JTR's (yes, I bought them entirely based on AVS reviews). Candidly, I was worried that the hype was going to be greater than reality. I've read people rant and rave about these speakers, but I was just hoping for a solid HT setup.

Whoa... Like, hold on to your effin hat, whoa... I've never heard sound like this before. Granted, my experience consists of listening to B&W speakers at the local Starpower. But this far and away exceeds my expectations. To the point, I'm having trouble thinking of adjectives to describe what I just heard. Jaw dropping...

Gotta run and make dinner -
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post #37770 of 37925 Old 08-30-2017, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obleo View Post
I've been a heavy lurker on AVS for the past 5-6 years, planning on someday building my own HT. I'm finally doing it (98% done) and have been waiting years to hear the fabled JTR's (yes, I bought them entirely based on AVS reviews).
Not that I don't believe the speakers are great (I've heard the 215RTs and had a similar reaction to yours), but how much of this do you think was your new room? In other words, did you compare them to an old set of speakers in the same room before hearing the 212RTs?

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