Official JTR speaker thread - Page 1264 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #37891 of 37925 Old 10-03-2017, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
What about 210RT's for LR and the 210RM for a center channel?
I have not had the chance to hear the JTR speakers so please bare with me. What are the differences between the 210 line and the 212 line also what is different between the RM and HTR designation.

Even though I have an open stairwell, I would still like to attempt to bring as much tactile feeling as I can into the room.

Thanks
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post #37892 of 37925 Old 10-03-2017, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post
I have not had the chance to hear the JTR speakers so please bare with me. What are the differences between the 210 line and the 212 line also what is different between the RM and HTR designation.

Even though I have an open stairwell, I would still like to attempt to bring as much tactile feeling as I can into the room.

Thanks
10" woofer VS 12" woofer. It depends on which 212 you're referring to, there are several 12" models. Some are 2 way and some are 3 way speakers.

The RM refers to reference monitor.
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post #37893 of 37925 Old 10-03-2017, 08:46 AM
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This is the space I am using.

The screen is on the wall closest to the top of the stairs, and a sectional surrounds the back and side walls.
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post #37894 of 37925 Old 10-03-2017, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishluck73 View Post
10" woofer VS 12" woofer. It depends on which 212 you're referring to, there are several 12" models. Some are 2 way and some are 3 way speakers.

The RM refers to reference monitor.
Is there any benefit to having larger mains that you can run full range over having smaller mains and subwoofers. By benefit, I mean the ability to pressurise a room.
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post #37895 of 37925 Old 10-03-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post
Is there any benefit to having larger mains that you can run full range over having smaller mains and subwoofers. By benefit, I mean the ability to pressurise a room.
Honestly, I don't know. I have read the 210RT's can be used for most music without a subwoofer and have heard nothing but amazing reviews in terms of their performance.

However, I believe for movies you would want to add a sub for the lower frequencies and sound effects.

Currently I have a Cap 1400 on order and am looking at the same exact thing I mentioned to you, 210RT's and 210RM, to replace my Salk setup.
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post #37896 of 37925 Old 10-04-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post
If you are not budget constrained, what would be your ideal JTR setup. The room is an upstairs loft with an open stairwell, measures 16' wide by 18' deep with a 9' ceiling. I am using a 12'X5' stewart studiotek 130 screen.
I would be doing a 7 channel set up with 4 additional in ceiling Atmos speakers.
My room is 12.5' wide by 19' deep with an 8.5' ceiling. I have JTR Noesis 215RT's for mains. If not budget constrained, get the biggest horn that you can.

Left and Right: Noesis 215RT
Center: Noesis 215RM - with the large horn and low crossover, horizontal placement will be ok
Surrounds: Slant 8HT-LP's mounted about 18-24" above ear height
Atmos: Slant 8HT-LP's on PJ mount for swivel/tilt and to make sure ceiling treatments don't interfere with them

Subwoofer: This is an interesting dilemma. Unless you go with two subwoofers, you are better off for frequency response and output to route the LFE to the Left and Right 215RT. If you use a Lab Gruppen D Series 80:4L, you can route LFE to the LR and divide the total amp power among 3 output channels. If you want to use receiver power or lower power amps, then I would suggest two of the S2 subs. They are a really nice form factor for your room and have tremendous low bass extension. You can lay them on their side below the screen and between the LR and Center.
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post #37897 of 37925 Old 10-04-2017, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
My room is 12.5' wide by 19' deep with an 8.5' ceiling. I have JTR Noesis 215RT's for mains. If not budget constrained, get the biggest horn that you can.

Left and Right: Noesis 215RT
Center: Noesis 215RM - with the large horn and low crossover, horizontal placement will be ok
Surrounds: Slant 8HT-LP's mounted about 18-24" above ear height
Atmos: Slant 8HT-LP's on PJ mount for swivel/tilt and to make sure ceiling treatments don't interfere with them

Subwoofer: This is an interesting dilemma. Unless you go with two subwoofers, you are better off for frequency response and output to route the LFE to the Left and Right 215RT. If you use a Lab Gruppen D Series 80:4L, you can route LFE to the LR and divide the total amp power among 3 output channels. If you want to use receiver power or lower power amps, then I would suggest two of the S2 subs. They are a really nice form factor for your room and have tremendous low bass extension. You can lay them on their side below the screen and between the LR and Center.
Thank you very much for your detailed response! Exactly what I was looking for.
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post #37898 of 37925 Old 10-04-2017, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
My room is 12.5' wide by 19' deep with an 8.5' ceiling. I have JTR Noesis 215RT's for mains. If not budget constrained, get the biggest horn that you can.

Left and Right: Noesis 215RT
Center: Noesis 215RM - with the large horn and low crossover, horizontal placement will be ok
Surrounds: Slant 8HT-LP's mounted about 18-24" above ear height
Atmos: Slant 8HT-LP's on PJ mount for swivel/tilt and to make sure ceiling treatments don't interfere with them

Subwoofer: This is an interesting dilemma. Unless you go with two subwoofers, you are better off for frequency response and output to route the LFE to the Left and Right 215RT. If you use a Lab Gruppen D Series 80:4L, you can route LFE to the LR and divide the total amp power among 3 output channels. If you want to use receiver power or lower power amps, then I would suggest two of the S2 subs. They are a really nice form factor for your room and have tremendous low bass extension. You can lay them on their side below the screen and between the LR and Center.
Would you recommend running the 215RT's Full Range even if I get the 2 S2's?
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post #37899 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post
This is the space I am using.

The screen is on the wall closest to the top of the stairs, and a sectional surrounds the back and side walls.
Nice layout, plenty to work with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
My room is 12.5' wide by 19' deep with an 8.5' ceiling. I have JTR Noesis 215RT's for mains. If not budget constrained, get the biggest horn that you can.

Left and Right: Noesis 215RT
Center: Noesis 215RM - with the large horn and low crossover, horizontal placement will be ok
Surrounds: Slant 8HT-LP's mounted about 18-24" above ear height
Atmos: Slant 8HT-LP's on PJ mount for swivel/tilt and to make sure ceiling treatments don't interfere with them

Subwoofer: This is an interesting dilemma. Unless you go with two subwoofers, you are better off for frequency response and output to route the LFE to the Left and Right 215RT. If you use a Lab Gruppen D Series 80:4L, you can route LFE to the LR and divide the total amp power among 3 output channels. If you want to use receiver power or lower power amps, then I would suggest two of the S2 subs. They are a really nice form factor for your room and have tremendous low bass extension. You can lay them on their side below the screen and between the LR and Center.
I agree with DD in all aspect except in the sub department...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post
Would you recommend running the 215RT's Full Range even if I get the 2 S2's?
Because this...

Tough the S2 is definitely more practical, from a size standpoint, the Cap 4000-ULF trumps it across the usable frequency range. Having heard the 4000-ULF at the previous KC GTG, I personally think it's one of the most incredible commercially bought subs on the market. Two 4000-ULF would compete with almost every other system on AVS...

That being said, maybe DD knows something I don't? Group delay issues between the 4000-ULF and the 215's maybe?
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post #37900 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey View Post
Would you recommend running the 215RT's Full Range even if I get the 2 S2's?
Ever since I got a Behringer DCX-2496 back in 2007, I've been playing around with various forms of bass management. I've had full range mains now for 6 years and the 215RT's for 5 months. Having full range mains adds another component in the decision making process.

Technically, I would say using a crossover has more benefits.
  • You can mitigate SBIR if your mains and subs are different distances from the front wall.
  • You can place subs for best cancellation of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd axial room modes.
  • You can simplify the filters needed for EQ.
  • You get more consistent bass since mixing is never consistent. Some movies have bass effects out of C and LFE, some L/R, some just LFE, and some LCR and LFE.
The THX-HAA recommended method is to always use a crossover regardless of the low bass capability of the mains.

With that said, I always use full range mains for blu-ray concerts and most of the time for two channel music. For movies, I have my system setup both ways. With the 215RT's, I've usually been using them full range.

One thing about crossovers is that they seldom sum back to the original signal - especially with receivers. They have a 12 db/octave low pass on the mains and a 24 db/octave high pass on the subs. If you combine these together using a transfer response measurement of the signal, you find either a hump or a dip at the crossover frequency. It takes some work and more advanced tools to make sure you aren't losing or adding to the original signal. For this reason, full range mains can sound better.
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post #37901 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 12:15 PM
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Thank you popalock and DD.

DD any thoughts on the 4000ULF instead of the 2 S2's for my space?
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post #37902 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
I agree with DD in all aspect except in the sub department...
I had a message yesterday I must have forgot to post. I was going to suggest maybe two 2400's instead of the S2's. I've heard dual Captivators with the following pairs: 118's, 1400's, 2400's, S2's, 4000's, and Orbit Shifter LFU's. I've heard dual S2's the most at The Savoy. I'll be there again Saturday for movie night. For a room that size, they are incredible. I tend to like more headroom above 30 Hz than below, which the S2's have.

In a room with his width, the subs with narrower width and depth work better because you have room to slide the subs between the L/R and C for the best suppression of room modes. He isn't using an AT screen so can't have something big sticking out in the room and the S2 or the 2400 can lay on their side. However, the S2 is the only one of those that can be placed so all frequencies coming from it are at the 1/4 points in the room. The 2400 works if vertical, but not if sideways.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bukiwhitey
DD any thoughts on the 4000ULF instead of the 2 S2's for my space?
It is mostly a space and placement issue. The 4000ULF is awesome! I had the one from the KC GTG in my room for a little while. Was going to have some guys over to listen to it. However, someone in Omaha wanted to buy it and I delivered it to him the next day. I spent a couple hours the night before just listening to music with it. It sounds really, really good.
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post #37903 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
They have a 12 db/octave low pass on the mains and a 24 db/octave high pass on the subs. If you combine these together using a transfer response measurement of the signal, you find either a hump or a dip at the crossover frequency. It takes some work and more advanced tools to make sure you aren't losing or adding to the original signal. For this reason, full range mains can sound better.
It has always been a dip for me, unfortunately a pretty big one. Adjustment of the delay helps to mitigate that, but at the same time other options to fix it are likely better is my guess. I have never tried applying my own LP or HP bypassing the receiver's but I recon that's worth some time experimenting with. Have you tried it before Mike?

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post #37904 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 01:05 PM
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I threw a pair of the Cap 4000ULF's onto the chart



There are other ways of getting as much low end as the Captivator 4000ULF.

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post #37905 of 37925 Old 10-05-2017, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I threw a pair of the Cap 4000ULF's onto the chart



There are other ways of getting as much low end as the Captivator 4000ULF.

I would love to experience 2 of those!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
One thing about crossovers is that they seldom sum back to the original signal - especially with receivers. They have a 12 db/octave low pass on the mains and a 24 db/octave high pass on the subs. If you combine these together using a transfer response measurement of the signal, you find either a hump or a dip at the crossover frequency. It takes some work and more advanced tools to make sure you aren't losing or adding to the original signal. For this reason, full range mains can sound better.
What more advanced tools? (thanks in advance).
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post #37907 of 37925 Old 10-06-2017, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Nice layout, plenty to work with.


I agree with DD in all aspect except in the sub department...

Because this...

Tough the S2 is definitely more practical, from a size standpoint, the Cap 4000-ULF trumps it across the usable frequency range. Having heard the 4000-ULF at the previous KC GTG, I personally think it's one of the most incredible commercially bought subs on the market. Two 4000-ULF would compete with almost every other system on AVS...

That being said, maybe DD knows something I don't? Group delay issues between the 4000-ULF and the 215's maybe?
I wonder how two 4000 would play with two OSLFU. Hmmm. @desertdome @beastaudio

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post #37908 of 37925 Old 10-07-2017, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
I wonder how two 4000 would play with two OSLFU. Hmmm. @desertdome @beastaudio
You won't do it...
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After reading 125+ of the most recent pages of this thread I feel like a celebration is in order! I just ordered 2x R212RT’s to replace my AV123 RS1000’s in my living room 2.0 setup. The 1000’s still sound ok for music but their dialog intelligibility and dynamics fall far short of what I’ve come to expect after owning a full JTR dedicated theater for 5+ years. I have a 25” deep cubby in my living room so the 212RT’s should achieve accecptable levels of WAF. Jeff let me know he is finalizing the 2018 corssover’s currently so I should be among the first owners of the latest version of the 212RT’s after he is finished. I am excited to say the least!
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After reading 125+ of the most recent pages of this thread I feel like a celebration is in order! I just ordered 2x R212RT’s to replace my AV123 RS1000’s in my living room 2.0 setup. The 1000’s still sound ok for music but their dialog intelligibility and dynamics fall far short of what I’ve come to expect after owning a full JTR dedicated theater for 5+ years. I have a 25” deep cubby in my living room so the 212RT’s should achieve accecptable levels of WAF. Jeff let me know he is finalizing the 2018 corssover’s currently so I should be among the first owners of the latest version of the 212RT’s after he is finished. I am excited to say the least!


Uh oh! Am I reading that right? Is 2018 going to see new speakers from JTR or new components/models/revisions of old speakers?


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post #37912 of 37925 Old 10-09-2017, 06:10 AM
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Uh oh! Am I reading that right? Is 2018 going to see new speakers from JTR or new components/models/revisions of old speakers?
The only thing mentioned to me was a crossover update for the 212RT's. I don't want to be the speculation cycle catalyst! With that said...221RT's, you heard it here first!
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post #37913 of 37925 Old 10-09-2017, 06:44 AM
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The only thing mentioned to me was a crossover update for the 212RT's. I don't want to be the speculation cycle catalyst! With that said...221RT's, you heard it here first!
221's!?!?!?
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post #37914 of 37925 Old 10-09-2017, 11:12 AM
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I wonder how two 4000 would play with two OSLFU. Hmmm. @desertdome @beastaudio
The two different tunings of the two designs would be extremely difficult to work around is m guess... With the phase shift at port tuning in the passband of the other design's transition from direct to port, I bet you'd get some really crazy stuff going on.
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post #37915 of 37925 Old 10-11-2017, 11:05 PM
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For those who already have their 212RT's or 212T's, do you have any measurements showing your in-room, low frequency extension?
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post #37916 of 37925 Old 10-13-2017, 06:12 AM
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Uh oh! Am I reading that right? Is 2018 going to see new speakers from JTR or new components/models/revisions of old speakers?
Looking at every aspect under a microscope and refining the crossovers for even low distortion and smoother sound
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post #37917 of 37925 Old 10-13-2017, 06:59 AM
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Looking at every aspect under a microscope and refining the crossovers for even low distortion and smoother sound
Looks like I might need to hold off on my speaker purchase! Any ETA?
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post #37918 of 37925 Old 10-13-2017, 11:04 AM
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Looks like I might need to hold off on my speaker purchase! Any ETA?
We're updating as ordered so no need to hold off. Shipped the first 2018 Noesis 228HT last week and shipping the first 2018 Noesis 212RT next week.
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post #37919 of 37925 Old 10-13-2017, 01:37 PM
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We're updating as ordered so no need to hold off. Shipped the first 2018 Noesis 228HT last week and shipping the first 2018 Noesis 212RT next week.
Any changes to the 215RT's coming? I'll be purchasing before the end of the year. Should I wait?
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post #37920 of 37925 Old 10-14-2017, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brady84 View Post
After reading 125+ of the most recent pages of this thread I feel like a celebration is in order! I just ordered 2x R212RT’s to replace my AV123 RS1000’s in my living room 2.0 setup. The 1000’s still sound ok for music but their dialog intelligibility and dynamics fall far short of what I’ve come to expect after owning a full JTR dedicated theater for 5+ years. I have a 25” deep cubby in my living room so the 212RT’s should achieve accecptable levels of WAF. Jeff let me know he is finalizing the 2018 corssover’s currently so I should be among the first owners of the latest version of the 212RT’s after he is finished. I am excited to say the least!
Please give us a review of the 212RTs when you get them.
tebling and Jeff Permanian like this.
acommonsoul is offline  
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