Official JTR speaker thread - Page 394 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #11791 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 08:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Haha, ok screw it..."

"You only need a high power amp if the lower powered one can't play the spl's you want."

that is the nuanced argument that good doc was making. it isn't something that you can pick up right away and for short duration or for movies may not really matter.

but for longer term music listening, small amounts of clipping, seemingly inaudible amounts, create all kinds of nasty distortion products that your brain struggles to filter out in the same way that it struggles to filter out distortion products in loudspeakers.

so the only real way to know if a system is "good enough" is to sit and listen to it for hours. if at the end, you have a headache and want to "just turn it off", then you are suffering from the problem. listener fatigue is the closest term that we have that I am aware of to describe the phenomenon.

wayne parham has talked about this when he has gone to audio conventions where he sits in a room with pair of speakers playing for two days in a row. if he takes his good ones, at the end of the two days, he is fine and drives home listening to music on the radio. if he takes his other ones, by the end, he has "had enough" and drives home with the radio turned off in order to give his brain a chance to rest and recover. all this even though the music was never loud during the entire weekend.

linkwitz mentions the same effect and says that you can't judge a system until you know how you feel at the end of listening for several hours. is your brain tired out? do you have a headache? do you have a sense of "I have just had enough of this"?

i have observed the same, but could never put my finger on why. to the extent that distortion products increase at roughly double the rate spl increases, all those distortion products are much more severe during listening to loud music. my suspicion is it isn't so much the loud part that is tiring as it is the brain struggling to filter out all the distortion.

Yes but all that equates to not having enough amp power to do the job. Why would a amp have more clipping or distortion from another? Clipping means you are over driving the amp and distortions from the amp are far lower than the speakers so how would one even hear them?
MKtheater is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #11792 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 09:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,202
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 233 Post(s)
Liked: 948
"Yes but all that equates to not having enough amp power to do the job."

you got it. that's the point.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is online now  
post #11793 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 09:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Santa Barbara, California
Posts: 2,438
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Liked: 341
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Reef, I am about 3 weeks in up and running with REW on my Mac mini htpc. There are specific Mac processes you need to take. PM me and I will gladly help you get set up. I have also implemented a mini dsp. So you want to do basically what I have just done (I use Audyssey in the mix too). Let me know. It's also in Austin Jerry's newcomers startup guide. You will need to read through that. But he also has a link from member J_P_A who figured out you need a audio program called sound flower and certain settings all selected to be able to get your mic to work. Anyway PM me for info if you like smile.gif

I ended up with this. I am confident I can get +-3db down to 7hz.


PM sent.
Reefdvr27 is offline  
post #11794 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 09:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
popalock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Doha, Qatar
Posts: 3,414
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Liked: 574
Send a message via Skype™ to popalock
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Yes but all that equates to not having enough amp power to do the job."

you got it. that's the point.

Crest Factor.

biggrin.gif
enterthedragon likes this.

 

popalock is offline  
post #11795 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 09:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,478
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 175
@LTD02 Thanks for the excellent comments, as always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Yes but all that equates to not having enough amp power to do the job. Why would a amp have more clipping or distortion from another? Clipping means you are over driving the amp and distortions from the amp are far lower than the speakers so how would one even hear them?

I think the answer, in large part, lies with the fact that not all distortion is perceived the same. Amps and speakers reproduce different distortion and those different sonic signatures are easily distinguished by the brain.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #11796 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 10:13 AM
Troll
 
ufokillerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 1,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

@LTD02 Thanks for the excellent comments, as always.
I think the answer, in large part, lies with the fact that not all distortion is perceived the same. Amps and speakers reproduce different distortion and those different sonic signatures are easily distinguished by the brain.

agree! i have a ton of amps, but some amps, playing the same music at the same volume at the same sitting position would leave my ears feeling like they just bled out. It might sound about the same, but my bloody ears would disagree.
ufokillerz is offline  
post #11797 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 10:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Another buddy of mine came over today. His subjective opinion of the clone vs my receiver is that it's warmer n fuller.
coolgeek is offline  
post #11798 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 10:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,034
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 224
Lol your gonna get spanked for that one CG smile.gif
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #11799 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 11:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Lol your gonna get spanked for that one CG smile.gif

Heehee.

I am just relaying what he said.

Ps I did say subjective opinion...
coolgeek is offline  
post #11800 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 11:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,478
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Heehee.

I am just relaying what he said.

Ps I did say subjective opinion...

If it wasn't triple blinded and level matched with an atomic clock calibrated spectrometer, it doesn't even rise to the level of subjective opinion....









biggrin.gif(Just kidding)

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #11801 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 11:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 1,889
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If it wasn't triple blinded and level matched with an atomic clock calibrated spectrometer, it doesn't even rise to the level of subjective opinion....









biggrin.gif(Just kidding)

You describing date night?? Oh you said spectrometer...never mind biggrin.gif
Frohlich is offline  
post #11802 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 11:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,034
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If it wasn't triple blinded and level matched with an atomic clock calibrated spectrometer, it doesn't even rise to the level of subjective opinion....









biggrin.gif(Just kidding)

I understand we don't want to fall into the snake oil trap. But to think every power source on the planet will all make a THE SAME speaker sound identical at say 500 watts just seems silly to me. Again we don't want to start blowing money on 20k triple balanced, recoiled and internal alien flesh coated capacitors. Whatever they say...
But I don't see it out of the realm of possibility for different amps to have slight changes in sound. It's a slippery slope I know. Perhaps Archaea you guys needed some more expensive amps. Maybe you can do another and find a clone, use your 7350 now. Maybe find a D-Sonic amp and a nice Sunfire to throw in there. That was my first thought when I read your list of participated amps.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #11803 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If it wasn't triple blinded and level matched with an atomic clock calibrated spectrometer, it doesn't even rise to the level of subjective opinion....









biggrin.gif(Just kidding)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

You describing date night?? Oh you said spectrometer...never mind biggrin.gif


LOL!!! You guys are so funny.. that's why I love the JTR thread... people here are more 'chilled'... biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I understand we don't want to fall into the snake oil trap. But to think every power source on the planet will all make a THE SAME speaker sound identical at say 500 watts just seems silly to me. Again we don't want to start blowing money on 20k triple balanced, recoiled and internal alien flesh coated capacitors. Whatever they say...
But I don't see it out of the realm of possibility for different amps to have slight changes in sound. It's a slippery slope I know. Perhaps Archaea you guys needed some more expensive amps. Maybe you can do another and find a clone, use your 7350 now. Maybe find a D-Sonic amp and a nice Sunfire to throw in there. That was my first thought when I read your list of participated amps.

Yup... once you pay $50,000 for an amp that looks like a mother ship, you know you're buying a one way ticket to Andromeda's Blackhole...

For $900 bucks, and 2200 watts / channel into 4 channels, it was no brainer for me.. heck, my 8 year old 80watt/channel receiver cost me $1000 bucks then... tongue.gif
coolgeek is offline  
post #11804 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,034
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 224
I'm not sure I want to go to Andromeda's blackhole eeek!
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #11805 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:23 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Liked: 421
You expect it to be better so it shall be! Again it does not matter what distortion it is because than 1% THD is inaudible when the speakers will be at more especially at louder volumes. If the amp is above that level than it is operating than it's power level and a higher powered amp is not. I have been where you guys are, it takes a while but you will come around!
MKtheater is offline  
post #11806 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,135
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 284 Post(s)
Liked: 470
Coolgeek, did I read that you said your receiver is really old and may not have much power?

When we did our blind amp comparison there was one amp that sounded different and not as good as the others, it was a cheaper receiver from a home theater in a box setup, I believe an Onkyo. It was an obvious difference too.
carp is offline  
post #11807 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You expect it to be better so it shall be! Again it does not matter what distortion it is because than 1% THD is inaudible when the speakers will be at more especially at louder volumes. If the amp is above that level than it is operating than it's power level and a higher powered amp is not. I have been where you guys are, it takes a while but you will come around!

I actually remembered you telling me way back then that separates were the way to go... lol... tongue.gif

I guess you have seen the light... smile.gif

I was the total opposite... I was, back then, a strictly receiver guy, simply because separates was just too much trouble and doesn't seem like a good investment.. until, well, a $900 buck clone amp that delivers 10,000 watts of pure power comes along and it didn't take much thinking to get one (you really can't lose here)... and now that I have it, I think i am never going back to powering my LCRs with a single receiver.. I'll still use a receiver as my pre-amp... but adding more power to my front speakers, and also perhaps adding mid bass units makes sense to me now.. and my extra channel on my clone is good enough for a couple of 18 inch drivers..

BTW: I have a DVD that had such low volume in it's recording that even at +12dB (which was max) on my receiver, I couldn't get it to sound decently loud enough.. pluck in the FP10,000, push the gain clockwise, and viola!! Loud and Clear... !!

I also like the idea of easily adjusting the LCR's volume separately... for some concerts i like to set the LR a few notches higher than the center and with others, i level match them.. i don't have to go to my receiver's settings all the time...
coolgeek is offline  
post #11808 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,478
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

You describing date night?? Oh you said spectrometer...never mind biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I'm not sure I want to go to Andromeda's blackhole eeek!

Yea, really. Now THAT is a scary date night.biggrin.gif

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #11809 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,034
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 224
^nice
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #11810 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Coolgeek, did I read that you said your receiver is really old and may not have much power?

When we did our blind amp comparison there was one amp that sounded different and not as good as the others, it was a cheaper receiver from a home theater in a box setup, I believe an Onkyo. It was an obvious difference too.

Yup.. it's an 8 year old Marantz.. which was rated at 80 watts per channel...

I believe newer amps would sound better and thus, i may not even hear any difference between today's receivers and my clone.. but right now, i can tell a difference just by listening...

BTW: even when I am listening to the clone, i am still using the same receiver as 'pre out' so that sort of takes cares of other variables such as DACs, processors, etc, etc... the only difference is the 'amplifier part'... and the clone kicks ass there...
coolgeek is offline  
post #11811 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

I actually remembered you telling me way back then that separates were the way to go... lol... tongue.gif

I guess you have seen the light... smile.gif

I was the total opposite... I was, back then, a strictly receiver guy, simply because separates was just too much trouble and doesn't seem like a good investment.. until, well, a $900 buck clone amp that delivers 10,000 watts of pure power comes along and it didn't take much thinking to get one (you really can't lose here)... and now that I have it, I think i am never going back to powering my LCRs with a single receiver.. I'll still use a receiver as my pre-amp... but adding more power to my front speakers, and also perhaps adding mid bass units makes sense to me now.. and my extra channel on my clone is good enough for a couple of 18 inch drivers..

BTW: I have a DVD that had such low volume in it's recording that even at +12dB (which was max) on my receiver, I couldn't get it to sound decently loud enough.. pluck in the FP10,000, push the gain clockwise, and viola!! Loud and Clear... !!

I also like the idea of easily adjusting the LCR's volume separately... for some concerts i like to set the LR a few notches higher than the center and with others, i level match them.. i don't have to go to my receiver's settings all the time...

I still am except I finally found an AVR that could run 4 ohm speakers at reference. Only one so far. I prefer my separates otherwise.
MKtheater is offline  
post #11812 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I still am except I finally found an AVR that could run 4 ohm speakers at reference. Only one so far. I prefer my separates otherwise.

Don't all higher range AVRs support 4ohm? I know the Onkyo 5010 that I bought does.. (still stuck at my friend's house).
coolgeek is offline  
post #11813 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:49 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Don't all higher range AVRs support 4ohm? I know the Onkyo 5010 that I bought does.. (still stuck at my friend's house).

Remember I said what I have owned, I have not tested all. I have the benefit of having speakers and gear all hidden from view when testing, everything is blind. I remember I ran a blind test of a Behringer EP-2500 in stereo vs a McIntosh amp. Everyone knew the two amps I was testing except that they did not know which one was playing. I played the score to The Dark Night(CD) in stereo on my JBL pro speakers with my sealed subs. Everyone was just guessing and assuming the better sound was the Mac. The Mac was 160(specs) watts into 4 ohms and the Ep-2500 was 650 watts(measured with sine waves). Everyone picked the 2500 assuming it was the Mac. Why, because the Mac started to strain a bit at reference and the EP-2500 was coasting along. When the mac was playing in sight it was the best amp ever wink.gif
MKtheater is offline  
post #11814 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,869
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 320 Post(s)
Liked: 611
My Onkyo TX-NR1007 will run 4 ohm just fine
Carp's Pioneer Elite will run 4 ohm just fine

They are out there --- what's the model on your Marantz coolgeek?

We hadn't considered that - but perhaps the little Onkyo HTIB receiver wasn't rated for 4ohm? As carp said it was the only amp that sounded clearly different. I assumed it was some sort of non defeatable eq programmed for the HTIB speakers it came with - which was someone's casual stab at explanation - but it could have also been the fact that as a cheapo AVR, it wasn't capable of driving the 4ohm speakers we were using (Noesis 212HT). I don't know how mis load matching lower ohm speakers to amplifier sections is supposed to sound.


jlpowell84 - you don't think an Emotiva XPA-2 is high end enough? That was the 'highest' quality, non pro gear we used in our testing on the two blind amp testing g2gs.
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-xpa-2

No we didn't have any Macintosh or other top shelf audiophile amps, but it wasn't for lack of interest. None of our local KC gang has the money for that gear, and after doing some of these real world tests - I don't think the interest is there for our group frankly if we should come into the money in the future.

If we did it again we'd potentially have access to a Peavey IPR7500, a Inuke DSP 6000, a Sherbourn 7-350, in addition to some of the other amps we've already used. The one thing to note and what I anticepate to show tonight with my vid is you guys are all saying you listen to your setups at so much more volume than what we did at our blind testing. I'm not sure that's true. It is absolutely TRUE ---- I don't know what volume you listen to normally - but I will say the blind test listening we did was louder than I listen to my music day to day and the little t-amp at 20 watts per channel could get louder than I am actually comfortable listening to music with for any length of time on the 212HT. The T-amp could get suprisingly loud playing the Klipsch RF-63 in full range use in our second little g2g. I already have a vid to show that little $20 amp seems to handle reference level music listening (or near reference level listening) fine on the 212HT. How much louder do you listen to music than reference levels on a 'regular' basis -- for hours on end? Reference level music is darn loud for much over brief demos and my ears would be ringing hardcore the next day if I listened to reference level music for two hours. I have to assume you guys know this - but for those reading who may not - reference is 0 on your Audyssey calibrated AVR. That's loud in a typical home theater enviornment if you are sitting there listening --- all the more with music use because there is less dynamic range use like in movies where there are soft sections of dialogue or inactivity. Most current music is pretty much recorded near peak dynamic levels.

I don't know about fatiguing. You're right that element can't be covered in A/B/C/D testing. But I'd imagine my daily mood would have more impact on whether I found music fatiguing than any amp difference at my 'typical' music listening volumes. At your preferred music listening volumes - that may be a entirely different story.

If you are up cleaning the house and have the music blasting in the theater room so you can hear it in the rest of the house - then yes reference or greater levels may be used in those times without discomfort.

Or maybe I'm just a wimp.... tongue.gif I usually settle in for some music listening at -18 to -25 with the bass 6dB hot or so. I will turn it up to -10 or -12 on a song I like for a bit, and then turn it back down after my wife comes in to yell at me. I rarely ever turn it up to reference levels for music. Only for movie demos.

Do you guys truly listen at reference levels to music for two hours each night?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
post #11815 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 7,256
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 375 Post(s)
Liked: 655
Quote:
BTW: I have a DVD that had such low volume in it's recording that even at +12dB (which was max) on my receiver, I couldn't get it to sound decently loud enough.. pluck in the FP10,000, push the gain clockwise, and viola!! Loud and Clear... !!

This leads me to believe that your AVR just wasn't matching well with the Noesis, and that the 80w per channel was inaccurate. Odds are you were just listening louder and perceiving it as better. maybe 80watts one channel driven, but not with multiple channels driven. I would be willing to bet the difference between two external amps would be less evident to you.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #11816 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 12:53 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 14,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 168 Post(s)
Liked: 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Remember I said what I have owned, I have not tested all. I have the benefit of having speakers and gear all hidden from view when testing, everything is blind. I remember I ran a blind test of a Behringer EP-2500 in stereo vs a McIntosh amp. Everyone knew the two amps I was testing except that they did not know which one was playing. I played the score to The Dark Night(CD) in stereo on my JBL pro speakers with my sealed subs. Everyone was just guessing and assuming the better sound was the Mac. The Mac was 160(specs) watts into 4 ohms and the Ep-2500 was 650 watts(measured with sine waves). Everyone picked the 2500 assuming it was the Mac. Why, because the Mac started to strain a bit at reference and the EP-2500 was coasting along. When the mac was playing in sight it was the best amp ever wink.gif

Separates are the way to go if the AVR can not play 4 ohms cleanly at reference. Specs are fine except what really happens?

Why do I keep quoting myself

What are the lowest impedances of the Noesis? A nominal 4 ohm speaker usually will have dips below that and this is where AVR's have trouble, especially when pushed a little.

BTW, I still have friends that think I am crazy for selling my high end separates for a puny AVR!
MKtheater is offline  
post #11817 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 01:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Eugene, OR
Posts: 4,034
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 158 Post(s)
Liked: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Separates are the way to go if the AVR can not play 4 ohms cleanly at reference. Specs are fine except what really happens?

Why do I keep quoting myself

What are the lowest impedances of the Noesis? A nominal 4 ohm speaker usually will have dips below that and this is where AVR's have trouble, especially when pushed a little.

BTW, I still have friends that think I am crazy for selling my high end separates for a puny AVR!

Yea, after landing the Sherbourn PA 7350 I don't expect to ever buy another amp unless I want more channels.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #11818 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 01:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,869
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 320 Post(s)
Liked: 611
Has the clone amp been measured by anyone on a bench lab yet?

Something like what the XPA-2 link has?
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-xpa-2/xpa-2-measurements

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
post #11819 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 01:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Remember I said what I have owned, I have not tested all. I have the benefit of having speakers and gear all hidden from view when testing, everything is blind. I remember I ran a blind test of a Behringer EP-2500 in stereo vs a McIntosh amp. Everyone knew the two amps I was testing except that they did not know which one was playing. I played the score to The Dark Night(CD) in stereo on my JBL pro speakers with my sealed subs. Everyone was just guessing and assuming the better sound was the Mac. The Mac was 160(specs) watts into 4 ohms and the Ep-2500 was 650 watts(measured with sine waves). Everyone picked the 2500 assuming it was the Mac. Why, because the Mac started to strain a bit at reference and the EP-2500 was coasting along. When the mac was playing in sight it was the best amp ever wink.gif

Well, if 160 watts/channel is still not enough, then there's no chance my 80 watts/channel (edit: I just found out it's actually 105Watts/channel) avr will ever be... tongue.gif

And that leads back to the conclusion, MORE = BETTER!!

I just don't get the tests designed to fail like 'level matched'.

Don't we want to test 'which avr/amp' is better at whatever levels we want to hear? At this point, my clone has no limits and is far superior to my avr... well, unless i want to go beyond the Noesis' 136dB max... at which point, i might have to visit the ENT....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

My Onkyo TX-NR1007 will run 4 ohm just fine
Carp's Pioneer Elite will run 4 ohm just fine

They are out there --- what's the model on your Marantz coolgeek?

We hadn't considered that - but perhaps the little Onkyo HTIB receiver wasn't rated for 4ohm? As carp said it was the only amp that sounded clearly different. I assumed it was some sort of non defeatable eq programmed for the HTIB speakers it came with - which was someone's casual stab at explanation - but it could have also been the fact that as a cheapo AVR, it wasn't capable of driving the 4ohm speakers we were using (Noesis 212HT). I don't know how mis load matching lower ohm speakers to amplifier sections is supposed to sound.

It's a Marantz SR 7400. I just checked online and it actually delivers 105 Watts / channel into 7 channels.. so, it's actually better than i thought... and still devastated by the Clone...

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

This leads me to believe that your AVR just wasn't matching well with the Noesis, and that the 80w per channel was inaccurate. Odds are you were just listening louder and perceiving it as better. maybe 80watts one channel driven, but not with multiple channels driven. I would be willing to bet the difference between two external amps would be less evident to you.

It's actually 105 Watts / per channel, all discrete channels.. according to marantz' website..
coolgeek is offline  
post #11820 of 22816 Old 10-21-2013, 01:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
coolgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Anyone knows what 'vpl' level to set for my clone for the Noesis speakers??
coolgeek is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
Gear in this thread - 228ht by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off