Official JTR speaker thread - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 11:42 AM
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Here is another with the right speaker further out, asymmetrically and the center slightly towards it to offset. The left speaker feels so close in both these set ups but will be hooking it up shortly to see.
LL
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post #1262 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Does this look any better?


No, it still looks wrong to my eyes. Spread those speakers to give you a nice wide soundstage.

You can not hear with your eyes, so move that center speaker to the right of the TV. There is no sonic need to locate the center speaker centered on the TV screen. Then move the right speaker to the right of the fireplace opening.

I would move the left speaker back to where it was before.

So you would have left speaker, then TV, then center speaker, then fireplace, then right speaker on the front wall. Toe in each speaker as needed.
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post #1263 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

No, it still looks wrong to my eyes. Spread those speakers to give you a nice wide soundstage.

You can not hear with your eyes, so move that center speaker to the right of the TV. There is no sonic need to locate the center speaker centered on the TV screen. Then move the right speaker to the right of the fireplace opening.

I would move the left speaker back to where it was before.

So you would have left speaker, then TV, then center speaker, then fireplace, then right speaker on the front wall. Toe in each speaker as needed.

I disagree.
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post #1264 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I disagree.


It's not up to you!
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post #1265 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I disagree.

Yep, same here, for me it is critical to the believability of watching a film in my home theater that center channel dialogue audibly appears to be coming from the actors on screen, and that does not happen when the center channel is not centered with my TV. But apparently YMMV for some.

Cheers,
Ross
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post #1266 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

Yep, same here, for me it is critical to the believability of watching a film in my home theater that center channel dialogue audibly appears to be coming from the actors on screen, and that does not happen when the center channel is not centered. But apparently YMMV for some.

Cheers,
Ross



Right.

Maybe if you have an IMAX sized screen your center speakers need be be near the center of the screen. You can not locate sound with your eyes.

The offset angle is so slight that unless your speakers suck a wet one you will never hear the difference.
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post #1267 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:38 PM
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Well I may try that wider option as well.

For now I put accoustic panels inside of the mains and pushed the center back because moving it forward just 4-6 inches was causing echoing, odd
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post #1268 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:38 PM
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anyone know of the lead times for JTR speakers... I'm looking for 2-Quintuple 8s for the L&R, and 1-triple 12 for center. Emailed JTR but no reply

Any thoughts.....
Manny

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post #1269 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:40 PM
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It's often better to call jeff, great guy but gets busy and doesn't get to emails
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post #1270 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Right.

Maybe if you have an IMAX sized screen your center speakers need be be near the center of the screen. You can not locate sound with your eyes.

The offset angle is so slight that unless your speakers suck a wet one you will never hear the difference.


Dude, I was gracious in my post, I said this was important to *my ears* and "YMMV" - why do you need to be sarcastic and condescending??

This really is not difficult to understand: I sit 9 feet away from my 58" plasma and my eyes see actors on screen talking, and if my center channel is next to the screen rather centered on it, there is a very obvious disparity to the brain as the hear hears dialogue coming from the side, not anchored to the mouths that the eye is seeing. It is an obvious ear-eye-brain connection.

But since you think this is foolishness, please go announce your stunning new findings to Dolby, DTS, all the top mixing theater rooms in Hollywood, every high-end theater in the world, member RMK! in this thread, et al...
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post #1271 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

It's often better to call jeff, great guy but gets busy and doesn't get to emails

Ok, Thanks

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post #1272 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

Yep, same here, for me it is critical to the believability of watching a film in my home theater that center channel dialogue audibly appears to be coming from the actors on screen, and that does not happen when the center channel is not centered with my TV. But apparently YMMV for some.

Cheers,
Ross

what happens when someone is talking over on the right side of the screen ?


All this noise about noise.
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post #1273 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

and if my center channel is next to the screen rather centered on it, there is a very obvious disparity to the brain as the hear hears dialogue coming from the side, not anchored to the mouths that the eye is seeing. It is an obvious ear-eye-brain connection.

same here. i tried putting my center right next to my tv once like right up against it vertical and aimed it in toward the LP and you could still tell it was coming from the left

and i have a tiny screen. it's probably even worse on a larger screen

All this noise about noise.
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post #1274 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post


This really is not difficult to understand: I sit 9 feet away from my 58" plasma and my eyes see actors on screen talking, and if my center channel is next to the screen rather centered on it, there is a very obvious disparity to the brain as the hear hears dialogue coming from the side, not anchored to the mouths that the eye is seeing. It is an obvious ear-eye-brain connection.


Well, then how do you see the picture if the center speaker is right in front on the actors mouths? Now if you mount the center speaker above or below the TV, then "you" can hear the voices coming from above or below the television, and that is another obvious ear-eye-brain connection.

I suppose the next thing you are going to say is a vertical speaker offset does not bother you!




Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post


Just since you think this is foolishness, please go announce your stunning new findings to Dolby, DTS, all the top mixing theater rooms in Hollywood, every high-end theater in the world, member RMK! in this thread, et al...



Like your room / screen is the size of a theater or mixing room. Get real!
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post #1275 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

what happens when someone is talking over on the right side of the screen ?




Or the left side?


How come I can not see Spock standing behind me when he is talking from the surround speakers in Star Treck? Should I move the surround speakers somewhere so I can see Spock?
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post #1276 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

what happens when someone is talking over on the right side of the screen ?


In a properly mixed soundtrack that voice comes from the right side - the blend between center and right channel accomplishes this, that's the job of the sound engineer.
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post #1277 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

same here. i tried putting my center right next to my tv once like right up against it vertical and aimed it in toward the LP and you could still tell it was coming from the left

and i have a tiny screen. it's probably even worse on a larger screen


What speaker design for the center? Vertical or horizontal?

Is your TV centered in the room, or offset to the side like in the specific example being discussed here (aka goonstopher's system)?
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post #1278 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

In a properly mixed soundtrack that voice comes from the right side - the blend between center and right channel accomplishes this, that's the job of the sound engineer.



Nice dodge!
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post #1279 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Right.

Maybe if you have an IMAX sized screen your center speakers need be be near the center of the screen. You can not locate sound with your eyes.

The offset angle is so slight that unless your speakers suck a wet one you will never hear the difference.

Palmer, I can tell you this. In my room I used to have a solid screen with the center speaker below the screen (centered). I thought that it sounded good. Then I placed a center speaker (used same as right and left speaker) upright in front of the screen so that it matched the height of the mains. It was a big difference. After moving the speaker back below the screen I could tell that the dialog was coming from below the screen. From then on my eyes had been opened. I changed my screen out for an AT screen and it makes a big difference when the sound is tied to the screen.

My parents have an HT set up in their family room. For years their TV and center channel was not located in the proper position. it bothered me every time I used their system. The sounds and image were off. System was calibrated, but it never was right. Two years ago they bought a 60" Kuro and a new center speaker. Everything is in the right place now and it sounds much better. At least as good as it can sound with the center below the screen.
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post #1280 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

What speaker design for the center? Vertical or horizontal?

Is your TV centered in the room, or offset to the side like in the specific example being discussed here (aka goonstopher's system)?

it's an L/C/R type that's designed to be used either vertical or horizontal but sounds better vertical

i always use it vertical

All this noise about noise.
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post #1281 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Well, then how do you see the picture if the center speaker is right in front on the actors mouths? Now if you mount the center speaker above or below the TV, then "you" can hear the voices coming from above or below the television, and that is another obvious ear-eye-brain connection.

I suppose the next thing you are going to say is a vertical speaker offset does not bother you!


Like your room / screen is the size of a theater or mixing room. Get real!

Wow Cass, sounds like you have not had your meds today. Maybe you should try some yoga?

Hey everyone, did you hear? Cass has discovered that the Dolby spec for speaker placement that all of you have been going by for years is dead wrong - now everyone go immediately and place your center channel to the side of your screen by a couple feet and enjoy this newfound wisdom from J!
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post #1282 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Palmer, I can tell you this. In my room I used to have a solid screen with the center speaker below the screen (centered). I thought that it sounded good. Then I placed a center speaker (used same as right and left speaker) upright in front of the screen so that it matched the height of the mains. It was a big difference. After moving the speaker back below the screen I could tell that the dialog was coming from below the screen. From then on my eyes had been opened. I changed my screen out for an AT screen and it makes a big difference when the sound is tied to the screen.

My parents have an HT set up in their family room. For years their TV and center channel was not located in the proper position. it bothered me every time I used their system. The sounds and image were off. System was calibrated, but it never was right. Two years ago they bought a 60" Kuro and a new center speaker. Everything is in the right place now and it sounds much better. At least as good as it can sound with the center below the screen.

+1

You are exactly right mjg100, this is one of the big advantages of an AT screen and why we are installing same in our HT.
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post #1283 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

I am sure there is (including non-audio things I can think of that you are being polite enough not to say and technical setup things I am missing).

I got the deal of the century, literally unprecedented due to an error and some strange happenings. I had a lucky/crazy situation with a super generous business owner aka Jeff. I know I have no right having this system when renting... The lack of financial sense on my part is not something I am not unaware of but it is not nearly as extreme as you might think.

You certainly don't owe me or anyone an explanation and I'm sorry to be an A$$HAT, but your setup is so far off from even average that the run everything mono suggestion might be the best thus far. No matter how good a deal you made on the Q8's, any loudspeaker setup would suck with that positioning and minor adjustments won't make it any better.


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post #1284 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

same here. i tried putting my center right next to my tv once like right up against it vertical and aimed it in toward the LP and you could still tell it was coming from the left

and i have a tiny screen. it's probably even worse on a larger screen


It works for Palmer because he has a 32" TV. Right side, center and left side of the TV is just about the same place.
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post #1285 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

+1

You are exactly right mjg100, this is one of the big advantages of an AT screen and why we are installing same in our HT.

I was going hard in that direction myself until I installed the height speakers. The heights have moved the center audio image up to where I no longer feel the need for AT. Well that and the fact that the AT screen samples (including a in-person demo of a Stewart microperf) I received all looked bad when compared to my current screen.


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post #1286 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:26 PM
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Well, I just ordered 2 T-12's from Jeff. He said it would be about 2 weeks.

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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I was going hard in that direction myself until I installed the height speakers. The heights have moved the center audio image up to where I no longer feel the need for AT. Well that and the fact that the AT screen samples (including a in-person demo of a Stewart microperf) I received all looked bad when compared to my current screen.

I am pretty happy with my Seymour Center Stage XD screen
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post #1288 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rossandwendy View Post

Wow Cass, sounds like you have not had your meds today. Maybe you should try some yoga?

Hey everyone, did you hear? Cass has discovered that the Dolby spec for speaker placement that all of you have been going by for years is dead wrong - now everyone go immediately and place your center channel to the side of your screen by a couple feet and enjoy this newfound wisdom from J!



According to you, this setup (AKA the setup being discussed) meets your specifications.

The big honking center speaker sitting in front of the TV is a huge visual distraction to my eyes!






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post #1289 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I am pretty happy with my Seymour Center Stage XD screen

That was the leading candidate but the samples looked dull compared to my current StudioTek 130. Also, I need to go bigger with an AT and my projector (JVC RS2) doesn't have the lumens to light up a big AT screen. I will eventually do a screen wall with a scope/AT screen of some sort but I'm happy holding off for a while now that I have the S8's as heights. They made a big difference in front stage sound.


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post #1290 of 23334 Old 01-26-2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Palmer, I can tell you this. In my room I used to have a solid screen with the center speaker below the screen (centered). I thought that it sounded good. Then I placed a center speaker (used same as right and left speaker) upright in front of the screen so that it matched the height of the mains. It was a big difference. After moving the speaker back below the screen I could tell that the dialog was coming from below the screen. From then on my eyes had been opened. I changed my screen out for an AT screen and it makes a big difference when the sound is tied to the screen.

My parents have an HT set up in their family room. For years their TV and center channel was not located in the proper position. it bothered me every time I used their system. The sounds and image were off. System was calibrated, but it never was right. Two years ago they bought a 60" Kuro and a new center speaker. Everything is in the right place now and it sounds much better. At least as good as it can sound with the center below the screen.



Is this discussion about you or your equipment? Notice that the TV is not centered in the room, so unless your setup is the same your experience with your large AT screen means nothing at all. If you are suggesting that goonstopher should junk that TV and go with an AT screen and move his center speaker, then you can tell him all about it.


Suggest something that is valid for the JTR equipment setup that is being discusssed. Just saying you disagree with my suggestion means nothing to me.


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