Official JTR speaker thread - Page 439 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13141 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 04:39 PM
 
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What do you think the price of the 215 will be? Will their be a more traditional centre option (for those of us who cant go 3 across)?

Thanks
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post #13142 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tusker1 View Post

What do you think the price of the 215 will be? Will their be a more traditional centre option (for those of us who cant go 3 across)?

Thanks


Nobody knows the price...maybe not even Jeff yet. My guess is 3 to 4k range per speaker.
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post #13143 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Nobody knows the price...maybe not even Jeff yet. My guess is 3 to 4k range per speaker.

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Originally Posted by tusker1 View Post

What do you think the price of the 215 will be? Will their be a more traditional centre option (for those of us who cant go 3 across)?

Thanks

Considering driver choice of HQ 15s, speaker size of 6' and finish of quality veneers that a flagship deserves; with the amount of materials and work involved to deliver this beast you probably should not expect much change from $5k
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post #13144 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 07:51 PM
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I'm thinking of changing plans after realizing that I'm weak minded and have to do what Jedirun tells me to do. Here's the new plan:

- I will use 4 single 8HT for surrounds as per Jedirun's suggestion (anything bigger will not look good in the room)
- Given that I've never even used a sub in the past, I'll start out with a single S2 and then see if I want more than one sub
- I'll wait until more info comes out about the 215ts before deciding on LCRs. Until then, I'll use 3 of the single 8HTs as LCR and use my existing deftech's for surrounds.

Under this plan, I'll still have something good to listen to over the holidays, and I get to learn more about subs, and I get to see what the 215ts are all about. Most importantly, my wife will be introduced to monster speakers at a much slower pace which may mean more options for me in the future.

Assuming you people don't change my mind again, smile.gif, I do have some questions:

- Do all three variants of the single 8HT sound the same? I'm thinking of getting the LP and using a wall mount.
- When are the 215ts due out? Has Jeff hinted at anything?
- My AVR (Integra 60.5) has RCS outs for two subs. The S2 has balance XLR. I'm was planning to use RG6 cable, and I suppose an RCA-XLR adapter. Is that ok, or do I need a new amp as well?
All 3 variants of the Single 8 sound the same. You can use whatever one fits your space the best.

The S2 is a great choice. That is what I have and it is amazing. My guess is that you will have plenty of output. In my room the S2 level matches with my mains, a couple of notches from being turned down all the way and it feels like it could shake my house off of the foundation. You may want to add another down the road to help smooth out the bass response in the listening area, but it is unlikely that you will feel there is not enough bass at any sort of normal listening level. There is no problem using an RCA to XLR cable.
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post #13145 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 08:24 PM
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- Do all three variants of the single 8HT sound the same? I'm thinking of getting the LP and using a wall mount.

i was told by Jeff that the 3 variants use the same parts and crossover. Difference is sizing

i have 6x slanted 8hts on the way, Jeff mentioned that if they will be mounted higher up, the slanted 8's are the way to go.
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post #13146 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 08:49 PM
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Wasn't their an amp face off with jtr speaker this past summer. Did a single amp stand out over the others.
Allen
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post #13147 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 09:12 PM
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No all amps ended up sounding the same on the noesis 212ht and even on the klipsch rf63 in full range.

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post #13148 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

No all amps ended up sounding the same on the noesis 212ht and even on the klipsch rf63 in full range.
Thanks do you have a link to the information or a quick list of amps used.
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post #13149 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 10:14 PM
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Skip to the end...
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1472180/do-amps-matter-kansas-city-blind-amp-comparison-gtg

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post #13150 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

No all amps ended up sounding the same on the noesis 212ht and even on the klipsch rf63 in full range.
Not sure how 1 GTG can say that all amps will sound the same.

if a switching device was used, it could have changed the sound enough that everything sounded the same.

i have a ati 3006, sherbourn pa7-350, ep4000, face audio 1200ts, lab 14k clone, abletec 1000w amps, onkyo 3007 receiver, ncore400 amps, ncore1200 amps

there is a difference to me and some of my buddies that were over. nothing conclusive, but everyone would prefer the sound of something over something else, they all had different opinions as well.
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post #13151 of 35612 Old 11-30-2013, 11:35 PM
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Thanks
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post #13152 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

i was told by Jeff that the 3 variants use the same parts and crossover. Difference is sizing

i have 6x slanted 8hts on the way, Jeff mentioned that if they will be mounted higher up, the slanted 8's are the way to go.

I'm thinking not going slanted even though they will be mounted high. I will use a mount to change their angle. This way, if I move and build a better room, I have the option of mounting them lower.
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post #13153 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post

I'm thinking not going slanted even though they will be mounted high. I will use a mount to change their angle. This way, if I move and build a better room, I have the option of mounting them lower.
A good combination would be Single 8 or S8-LP for sides and Slanted 8s for rears. Rears are to be mounted up higher with the speaker aimed overtop the listening position. You can mount the Slanted 8 on an adjustable ceiling mount just like the Single 8. They are the same speaker different shaped cabinets.

On the stance all amps sound the same.

Quality amps are supposed to remain neutral. They accept the signal. Amplify that signal, and send it back out amplified but still neutral (No color) just like it started.

If the amp colors the neutral signal (like some tubes) it would not be neutral.

All amps sound the same b/c they remain neutral. If an amp purposely puts their own sonic signature on the sound the amp would sound different b/c it altered the original signal.

An amp should just drive the speakers harder with a goal of becoming effortless. Any perceived different sound should be attributed to the speaker becoming more efficient.smile.gif

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post #13154 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 06:17 AM
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there is a difference to me and some of my buddies that were over. nothing conclusive, but everyone would prefer the sound of something over something else, they all had different opinions as well.


Wait until you hear them with no delay at all at the same volume levels. The GTG was at my house last summer and I was hoping to be able to hear a difference because it would mean I could experiment and shop for an amp that I liked best with my 212's and I love buying new gear. At the gtg at first it was obvious that the amps were sounding different - shockingly and obviously different. However, we realized that audyssey had turned itself on in the Denon receiver we were using which explained 100 percent of the differences. After Audyssey was turned off I (and others) could hear no differences at all between any of the amps except for the cheapie HTIB receiver.

Before the gtg I was using a borrowed external amp to power my 212's and fully planned on buying a new amp for them. Since the GTG I immediately went back to my Pioneer Elite receiver and haven't given an amp much thought since - and this was since early June.

Others have seen this video I'm sure, but here it is for any that haven't:



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post #13155 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 06:40 AM
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I forgot about the Indiana Jones show, that was great. Honestly I really had more fun at Universal. Harry Potter was great and I have to say the kids loved the Mummy, we just kept going on over and over. Spiderman was awesome to. I think next time we are gong to stay at Universal.

I gotta ask, the lines must have been insane? I just could not imagine going on a holiday. However I would love to see the parks at Christmas.


I have never been to Disney World before so I have nothing to compare it to. However, it sure seemed crazy nuts busy to me. On Monday we were at Magic Kingdom and at one point after the afternoon parade we were stuck in a crowd and literally could not move - any direction - for a couple of minutes. We were up on a hill so I could see all the way down a good section of the park and as far as the eye could see it was the same thing - a sea of people that were unable to move. Absolutely crazy. After a couple minutes we were slowly able to start moving again but it kind of freaked me out since I'm a bit claustrophobic.

Overall thought it was a great week and we got to ride almost everything we wanted to. Most lines we waited in were 20 minutes long, a bunch were 10 or less and a couple were 30. The only line longer than 30 minutes that we waited for was the African Safari which was 60 minutes. The rest we used fast passes for. When we did Soarin' with a fast pass the normal line was 120 minute wait.


So good to be home and hear the Noesis again. I haven't gone this long without listening to them since I bought them last November and they've never sounded better! Man, I missed this. smile.gif

It's also good to get back to where the water tastes good and not like a mouth full of salt.
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post #13156 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 09:11 AM
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So I've been enjoying the new system in our living room. 212HT-LPs for LCR and 2 Slanted 8s for the sides. Have 2 of 3 LMS 5400 subwoofers hooked up. To this point, the subs have been stealing the show and I was a little underwhelmed by the enveloping sound of the JTR speakers. Well, I finally had time to check the setup (thought it was a setting in the preamp) last night and figured out the right 212HT wasn't working. I took it apart to find out the crossover wasn't mounted and the wires from the binding posts in the back had come loose. I had to take apart another 212 to figure out the wiring and then had to take a trip to Wally World to get the appropriate size connector. The interesting thing is I took apart the whole speaker and looked all over (including speaker magnets) but could only find one screw for the crossover. So I did get the speaker fixed and the crossover mounted securely and the speaker is now working.

It was after 1am at this point and I told the wife I just wanted to hear it to make sure everything worked and she said she wanted to listen to Transformers 1. We were only supposed to listen to the opening battle and then turn it off. Well, by the time we finished watching, it was 4am. smile.gif We both had huge grins on our face and my wife used the word intense to describe several movie passages. We still love the subs and how they transmit the bass through the couch but the JTR speakers finally held up their end of the bargain with enveloping sound. Phenomenal. Best system I've ever heard. I think I'll call on Monday to place an order for some Slanted 8s to go in the rear. I originally thought 7.1 would be too much for our small/medium living room but I think I'll hear a difference with the rear speakers, even more enveloping and then the sounds won't be localizable to a specific speaker.

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"You don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them!"
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post #13157 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 09:25 AM
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Does a similar diagram exist for the single 8?

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post #13158 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 11:29 AM
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My uncle is planning on buying some new speakers, the PSB Imagine T2 Towers. I am trying to convince him that he should pick up a pair of Noesis 228HT along with a nice sub. Is there anyone around in the mid-Michigan area with the Noesis speakers that would be willing to do a demo? I personally would love hearing them myself, my theater room is due for a speaker upgrade, but the budget doesn't quite allow it yet.
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post #13159 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

No all amps ended up sounding the same on the noesis 212ht and even on the klipsch rf63 in full range.
Not sure how 1 GTG can say that all amps will sound the same.

if a switching device was used, it could have changed the sound enough that everything sounded the same.

i have a ati 3006, sherbourn pa7-350, ep4000, face audio 1200ts, lab 14k clone, abletec 1000w amps, onkyo 3007 receiver, ncore400 amps, ncore1200 amps

there is a difference to me and some of my buddies that were over. nothing conclusive, but everyone would prefer the sound of something over something else, they all had different opinions as well.

We certaintly can't say all amps sound the same, but everyone there regardless of their incoming position left with the sentiment those amps we auditioned all sounded somewhere between exactly identical, and too close to reliably tell. I was unsure of my thoughts before we started, but ended our little experiment with a pretty clear personal stance on the matter.

We used super simple switching device made of eight single throw double pole electrical switches. The resistances were all verified identical with a multimeter. Each run of speaker wire was identical length. All amps were level matched two ways, with an SPL meter and a several hundred dollar fluke multimeter, from the resident engineer in our group, MrSmithers.

With that device we could switch between four amps in fractions of seconds. This is absolutely key to ferreting out the difference with no placebo.

No, I can't tell you all amps sound the same, and as countrywv said, if the amp deliberately adds its own "signature" eq, or tube warmth, or something similar they won't sound the same - as we noticed with the onkyo home theater in box. However, what we did determine was between multiple amps and receivers - from something as an inexpensive as a $20 lepai t-amp to an $800 emotiva XPA-2, it was pretty much impossible to tell the difference at normal listening volumes to even a bit louder than normal listening volumes. We repeated the test with Klipsch RF-63 playing full range and had the same results. If someone would have told me a t-amp sounded the same as the other amps, I would not have believed it. But not much you can say when they are actively switching back and forth and you can't at all tell which is which.

UFOkillerz, I will ship you my switching mechanism on my dime if you want to try a little experimentation on your own, but I'd like it back when you are through.

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post #13160 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

We certaintly can't say all amps sound the same, but everyone there regardless of their incoming position left with the sentiment those amps we auditioned all sounded somewhere between exactly identical, and too close to reliably tell. I was unsure of my thoughts before we started, but ended our little experiment with a pretty clear personal stance on the matter.

We used super simple switching device made of eight single throw double pole electrical switches. The resistances were all verified identical with a multimeter. Each run of speaker wire was identical length. All amps were level matched two ways, with an SPL meter and a several hundred dollar fluke multimeter, from the resident engineer in our group, MrSmithers.

With that device we could switch between four amps in fractions of seconds. This is absolutely key to ferreting out the difference with no placebo.

No, I can't tell you all amps sound the same, and as countrywv said, if the amp deliberately adds its own "signature" eq, or tube warmth, or something similar they won't sound the same - as we noticed with the onkyo home theater in box. However, what we did determine was between multiple amps and receivers - from something as an inexpensive as a $20 lepai t-amp to an $800 emotiva XPA-2, it was pretty much impossible to tell the difference at normal listening volumes to even a bit louder than normal listening volumes. We repeated the test with Klipsch RF-63 playing full range and had the same results. If someone would have told me a t-amp sounded the same as the other amps, I would not have believed it. But not much you can say when they are actively switching back and forth and you can't at all tell which is which.

UFOkillerz, I will ship you my switching mechanism on my dime if you want to try a little experimentation on your own, but I'd like it back when you are through.
I would have been surpised if the solid state amps had different sound signature within thier normal operating parameters and they are not clipping. Now compare the T-amp with the LG 10k on the Noesis 212 at 25ft at +15dbfr on some dynamic music material and the difference is obvious that one of them is not running withing its "normal operating parameters". I am surprised so many people are so interested in high powered amps vs little amps when they are all run at 1 watt or some very low level. If at these very low wattage levels each has enough headroom for peaks why would we expect any sonic difference? I do think the video highlighting the efficiency of the Noesis is an eye opener for many though.
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post #13161 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 12:21 PM
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I personally think amp gains play 99% in people hearing vast differences. I've been to a meet where people were doing pretty much the same as Archaea but didn't take into account amp gains. I was an epic facepalm moment. all there 10 guys who are "audiophiles" and they can't even grasp the concept of different amp gains. They would just switch the amps, without spl matching or anything else and claim victory. When I pointed out that they were doing it wrong and had to level match at the very least, they pointed out "thats not the way it works, were are comparing amp vs amp"
but yet some had 26dB gain and some had in the 30's.... Well guess which amp they liked best..... ding ding, the louder ones!!!!
I didn't know what to do or say, so I just slipped out the back and left. The idiocy (cable lifters, paper under the speakers for extended treble response among some other doozies) was mind boggling. One guy even was convinced that placing these orbs around his room extended the bass response of his speakers! I asked his how, he said by ear it was 17hz lower LMAO!!! epic facepalm.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #13162 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 12:34 PM
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I personally think amp gains play 99% in people hearing vast differences. I've been to a meet where people were doing pretty much the same as Archaea but didn't take into account amp gains. I was an epic facepalm moment. all there 10 guys who are "audiophiles" and they can't even grasp the concept of different amp gains. They would just switch the amps, without spl matching or anything else and claim victory. When I pointed out that they were doing it wrong and had to level match at the very least, they pointed out "thats not the way it works, were are comparing amp vs amp"
but yet some had 26dB gain and some had in the 30's.... Well guess which amp they liked best..... ding ding, the louder ones!!!!
I didn't know what to do or say, so I just slipped out the back and left. The idiocy (cable lifters, paper under the speakers for extended treble response among some other doozies) was mind boggling. One guy even was convinced that placing these orbs around his room extended the bass response of his speakers! I asked his how, he said by ear it was 17hz lower LMAO!!! epic facepalm.
17hz, that's quite the golden ear. rolleyes.gif I think what would be interesting is to level match different amps, test, level match at higher level, test and keep going to find out which amps start to introduce clipping to the point it can be perceived in listening sessions. For me personally hard rock music that is dynamic but also "fairly busy" is a good choice for this testing because clipping will create fatigue quickly with that type of music IMO. In
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post #13163 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 12:55 PM
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So I've been enjoying the new system in our living room. 212HT-LPs for LCR and 2 Slanted 8s for the sides. Have 2 of 3 LMS 5400 subwoofers hooked up. To this point, the subs have been stealing the show and I was a little underwhelmed by the enveloping sound of the JTR speakers. Well, I finally had time to check the setup (thought it was a setting in the preamp) last night and figured out the right 212HT wasn't working. I took it apart to find out the crossover wasn't mounted and the wires from the binding posts in the back had come loose. I had to take apart another 212 to figure out the wiring and then had to take a trip to Wally World to get the appropriate size connector. The interesting thing is I took apart the whole speaker and looked all over (including speaker magnets) but could only find one screw for the crossover. So I did get the speaker fixed and the crossover mounted securely and the speaker is now working.

It was after 1am at this point and I told the wife I just wanted to hear it to make sure everything worked and she said she wanted to listen to Transformers 1. We were only supposed to listen to the opening battle and then turn it off. Well, by the time we finished watching, it was 4am. smile.gif We both had huge grins on our face and my wife used the word intense to describe several movie passages. We still love the subs and how they transmit the bass through the couch but the JTR speakers finally held up their end of the bargain with enveloping sound. Phenomenal. Best system I've ever heard. I think I'll call on Monday to place an order for some Slanted 8s to go in the rear. I originally thought 7.1 would be too much for our small/medium living room but I think I'll hear a difference with the rear speakers, even more enveloping and then the sounds won't be localizable to a specific speaker.

Glad you got them working but that's weird. I have done crossover replacement on the Triple 12's (twice) they were always held with 4 screws. Hope he doesn't have holiday help that is slacking off. Please let him know what you found (take pictures). He owes you a discount on the S8's for your trouble.

Opinions are not facts.
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post #13164 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 01:17 PM
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I've been having an itch lately for jumping on some JTRs eek.gif I'm thinking about getting 228s for the fronts and center and slanted 8s for rears on a 5.2 setup with 2 PSA Triaxes as the subwoofers. With my current bowers and Wilkins, when I crank the volume they get distortion during some scenes in movies and it's getting annoying. Other than that they do great but I know JTRs would blow them away and put me where I want. I'm hoping to avoid an external amplifier for now and just run them off a Denon 4520ci receiver, not sure if this is realistic or not. I see that they are booked a month in advance so I'm debating on pulling the trigger soon. One thing I'm stuck on is should I pay the extra for 212s or just get 228s? Obviously the 212s would close the deal on a mind blowing experience but would I be in doubt getting the 228s? How much difference would it be in the end? I just want to be able to run movies and music at high volumes, well above reference and not get any distortion. Help! eek.gif

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
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post #13165 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I've been having an itch lately for jumping on some JTRs eek.gif I'm thinking about getting 228s for the fronts and center and slanted 8s for rears on a 5.2 setup with 2 PSA Triaxes as the subwoofers. With my current bowers and Wilkins, when I crank the volume they get distortion during some scenes in movies and it's getting annoying. Other than that they do great but I know JTRs would blow them away and put me where I want. I'm hoping to avoid an external amplifier for now and just run them off a Denon 4520ci receiver, not sure if this is realistic or not. I see that they are booked a month in advance so I'm debating on pulling the trigger soon. One thing I'm stuck on is should I pay the extra for 212s or just get 228s? Obviously the 212s would close the deal on a mind blowing experience but would I be in doubt getting the 228s? How much difference would it be in the end? I just want to be able to run movies and music at high volumes, well above reference and not get any distortion. Help! eek.gif

Your description of your requirements points to the 212's. If you read Carps post above he is fine with his Pioneer AVR and he likes it LOUD too ... smile.gif

BTW, nice subs ... cool.gif

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post #13166 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Your description of your requirements points to the 212's. If you read Carps post above he is fine with his Pioneer AVR and he likes it LOUD too ... smile.gif

BTW, nice subs ... cool.gif

Thanks, I'm trying to familiarize myself with JTRs and justify paying $3,000 for each 212 verse $1,800 for each 228. I just don't want to blow too much on my bedroom setup but realistically it might be a while until I buy a house and do a dedicated build so I still need my bedroom to keep me occupied for the time being. I'm thinkin it could take from 1-2 years until I can have a real setup built so for now I'd like to finalize my first temporary setup and JTRs could get me there. My goal is to not add anything else next year, just enjoy what I have and spend the whole year saving. After JTRs I'll be around $60k spent so I've gotta stop myself eek.gif . I wish I could hear some 228s to see the difference but I might have to depend on others feedback.

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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post #13167 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Thanks, I'm trying to familiarize myself with JTRs and justify paying $3,000 for each 212 verse $1,800 for each 228. I just don't want to blow too much on my bedroom setup but realistically it might be a while until I buy a house and do a dedicated build so I still need my bedroom to keep me occupied for the time being. I'm thinkin it could take from 1-2 years until I can have a real setup built so for now I'd like to finalize my first temporary setup and JTRs could get me there. My goal is to not add anything else next year, just enjoy what I have and spend the whole year saving. After JTRs I'll be around $60k spent so I've gotta stop myself eek.gif . I wish I could hear some 228s to see the difference but I might have to depend on others feedback.
Noesis 212 = $2199

Noesis 228 = $1199

Veneers would be about $300 per speaker but the stock finish would match the triaxes standard finish. Stand are $150 -$200. these prices are before any discount Jeff may give.

Chris
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post #13168 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


Noesis 212 = $2199

Noesis 228 = $1199

Veneers would be about $300 per speaker but the stock finish would match the triaxes standard finish. Stand are $150 -$200. these prices are before any discount Jeff may give.

Chris

Wait I've been reading the prices wrong eek.gif each 212 is only $2,199?????

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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post #13169 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 02:57 PM
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I was thinking I'd have to pay $3,000 for each 212, I don't want any extra finish or anything

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
Denon AVR-4520CI receiver DBT-3313UDCI blu ray player
Klipsch RF-82 II, RC-62 II, RS-62 II
Dual PSA Triaxes!
Xbox one, xbox 360 My Videos! >
Christmas Surprise! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJcmWTpBcm0
Triax! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoKuxirdIg
http://...
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post #13170 of 35612 Old 12-01-2013, 02:58 PM
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http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/

Check it out.smile.gif

Chris
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