Official JTR speaker thread - Page 448 - AVS Forum
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post #13411 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post


IMO Fletcher-Munson supports the notion that all humans need to go full ULF-Tard before they can pass judgement on what infrasound effectively brings to the table.

Dead on right there homey.

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post #13412 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

 

Interesting.  I agree with the overall point you are trying to make, but I do not agree with the part of your comment that I bolded above.  I haven't owned an AVR with Audyssey, but I've heard a lot about "Dynamic EQ" and "Reference Level Offset."  However, I never really took the time to look a little deeper until now.  Here is what I did to put Gooddoc's feedback into context.  Let's take a quick look at the equal loudness contour.

 

EqualLoudnessContour_zpse883db30.jpg

 

Keep in mind that the premise of this study is our "perception" of equal loudness.  Let's use the 70db line for reference.  According to the study, it takes 105db at 20Hz to equal the same perceived loudness of 1kHz at 70db.  That's a 35db difference!  Go down to the next line (60db) and it takes 100db (-5db) at 20Hz to equal the same loudness of 1kHz at 60db.  So a -10db reduction at 1kHz, but only a -5db at 20Hz would yield the same perception of "equal loudness."  This would imply that our ear's sensitivity decreases at a slower rate in the bass range from a perception stand point relative to the upper end of the frequency range, but since our AVR's decrease volume in a linear scale, adjusting the MV down 10db would mean we were -5db from where we would want to be at 20Hz.  Does that make sense? 

 

So my counter to the bold part of your comment above would be:

 

1.  Our ear's sensitivity to bass decreases at a slower rate than treble as the volume decreases, thus the need for DEQ/RLO to scale MV adjustment in favor of bass response.

Or

2.  Our AVR's decrease volume on a linear scale and Audyssey DEQ/RLO works by scaling MV adjustments to account for our auditory perception of the frequency range.  

 

One last point.  Since the audible perception of the human ear is skewed heavily between the 1-6kHz range (or there about), the equal loudness study would imply that running a system "flat" at 90db would mean you would be down 30db from what we would perceive as being equally loud at 20Hz.  Throw in the typical 10db LFE/Bass boost and you are still down 20db from being "audibly" equal.

 

90db at 20hz is already underwhelming, whereas 90db in the rest of the audible spectrum is easily perceived by most to be loud enough for viewing/listening purposes.  Reduce the MV by -10db and 20Hz at 80db is nothing!  However, my understanding of DEQ/RLO is that decreasing the MV by -10db would potentially mean a -8db (random guess) decrease at 20Hz, thus closing the gap or at least attempting to assist in maintaining our perception of "equal loudness."   

 

That's my $.31.

I was farting around with these settings yesterday. I run 3db hot for movies and 6-12db hot for music. I also have a low shelf filter that rises 5db from 100-30hz then flat behind. I also have PGM 2 implemented on both Submetsives which gives a 3db boost below about 45 hz. On top of all that I use Dynamic EQ. I toggled DEQ off for a moment and the bass completely disappeared. I was listening to music at -20 which is pretty dang loud sitting 9ft from mains. I have absolutely no idea how I could live without dynamic EQ! Even with my house curve and all the other things implemented there's no way I could live without it. Does your pioneer have anything that helps our perception on this loudest curve? If not I am simply curious what approach you take? I was listening to Phil Collins greatest love songs two CD set at -20 to -30 and the base was absolutely beautiful the kick drums the bass guitar very very nice. Nothing was overwhelming or dominating and all blended very very well. of course the Submersives have a part to play in that with their quality
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I've done that and you've heard it! This look familiar? Red curve below is what we were running when you came by and we did the BHD scene...lol. IIRC I remember you enjoyed it.
AllCombinedFullSpectrum_zpsbdf721cc.jpg

What i would like to see is some sweeps with DEQ engaged to see how it effects the curve in 5db increments. Just to gauge to what degree it contours the response in relation to MV.

I could also run the sweeps with in the next week smile.gif
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post #13413 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 10:05 AM
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Just got an email from FedEx saying 4 boxes are scheduled for pick up from Jeff at JTR tomorrow!!! In the words of the immortal Borat: "I'm very excite!". Any ideas on how long it takes freight to go from Wisconsin to Texas in December?!?!

Now....I must decide if I should forgo the self imposed lock I have on my savings account to purchase some S8's for surround duty.......


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post #13414 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Very nice. Do you happen to know the dimensions. I need a smaller center channel then the Noesis 212 when/if I upgrade in the future and wonder if that would fit the bill for me as well.

Ya it's 33L x 11.5W x 12 deep. The only restriction I have is that it couldn't be over 11.5" wide for my center . I've already traded my current Q8s custom center for a pair of Pioneer HPM 150's in awesome condition. they are great sounding vintage speakers!!

Edited for spec'd right size.

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post #13415 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

So Jeff sent me a pic of my new center! He said he's working on the xover and I should have it pretty soon. For those who don't know, it's uses the pro Noesis's 10" drivers and is custom made to fit under my screen.


That is a very cool looking speaker but it seems like a waste when what you really need is an AT screen with the LCR's at the same height.

Just sayin ... tongue.gif

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post #13416 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

 

Interesting.  I agree with the overall point you are trying to make, but I do not agree with the part of your comment that I bolded above.  I haven't owned an AVR with Audyssey, but I've heard a lot about "Dynamic EQ" and "Reference Level Offset."  However, I never really took the time to look a little deeper until now.  Here is what I did to put Gooddoc's feedback into context.  Let's take a quick look at the equal loudness contour.

 

EqualLoudnessContour_zpse883db30.jpg

 

Keep in mind that the premise of this study is our "perception" of equal loudness.  Let's use the 70db line for reference.  According to the study, it takes 105db at 20Hz to equal the same perceived loudness of 1kHz at 70db.  That's a 35db difference!  Go down to the next line (60db) and it takes 100db (-5db) at 20Hz to equal the same loudness of 1kHz at 60db.  So a -10db reduction at 1kHz, but only a -5db at 20Hz would yield the same perception of "equal loudness."  This would imply that our ear's sensitivity decreases at a slower rate in the bass range from a perception stand point relative to the upper end of the frequency range, but since our AVR's decrease volume in a linear scale, adjusting the MV down 10db would mean we were -5db from where we would want to be at 20Hz.  Does that make sense? 

 

So my counter to the bold part of your comment above would be:

 

1.  Our ear's sensitivity to bass decreases at a slower rate than treble as the volume decreases, thus the need for DEQ/RLO to scale MV adjustment in favor of bass response.

Or

2.  Our AVR's decrease volume on a linear scale and Audyssey DEQ/RLO works by scaling MV adjustments to account for our auditory perception of the frequency range.  

 

One last point.  Since the audible perception of the human ear is skewed heavily between the 1-6kHz range (or there about), the equal loudness study would imply that running a system "flat" at 90db would mean you would be down 30db from what we would perceive as being equally loud at 20Hz.  Throw in the typical 10db LFE/Bass boost and you are still down 20db from being "audibly" equal.

 

90db at 20hz is already underwhelming, whereas 90db in the rest of the audible spectrum is easily perceived by most to be loud enough for viewing/listening purposes.  Reduce the MV by -10db and 20Hz at 80db is nothing!  However, my understanding of DEQ/RLO is that decreasing the MV by -10db would potentially mean a -8db (random guess) decrease at 20Hz, thus closing the gap or at least attempting to assist in maintaining our perception of "equal loudness."   

 

That's my $.31.

Great post. Thanks for your input as I'm certainly no expert on the topic and discussions like this usually lead to a better understanding of the topic than I had before.

I do know that Audyssey's DEQ compensation algorithm is not based off the Fletcher curves. Chris has stated that they don't really apply well to how we hear loudness in small rooms according to his research. So the algorithm is based on some other proprietary information.

Also....ah crap. I have to get back to work for a bit but I don't want to lose this so I'm posting a partially done response. biggrin.gif. I'll continue this in a bit.

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post #13417 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

That is a very cool looking speaker but it seems like a waste when what you really need is an AT screen with the LCR's at the same height.

Just sayin ... tongue.gif

It's impossible or I would have done it lol Where the projector has to go, where I have to sit, it would pull the wall out to much and be a disaster acoustically. Not in this house anyways!

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post #13418 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

It's impossible or I would have done it lol Where the projector has to go, where I have to sit, it would pull the wall out to much and be a disaster acoustically. Not in this house anyways!

I'll just keep bugging you about this until you get yourself a proper house for HT ... tongue.gifwink.gif

The speaker looks good, I guess the existing Noesis 3TX with the horn on the top would look weird in horizontal mode.

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post #13419 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I'll just keep bugging you about this until you get yourself a proper house for HT ... tongue.gifwink.gif

The speaker looks good, I guess the existing Noesis 3TX with the horn on the top would look weird in horizontal mode.

I believe the stockpile is already of substantial size for the next house that isn't too far off the horizon tongue.gif Rob, you should have no worries smile.gif

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post #13420 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I'll just keep bugging you about this until you get yourself a proper house for HT ... tongue.gifwink.gif

The speaker looks good, I guess the existing Noesis 3TX with the horn on the top would look weird in horizontal mode.

We've been waiting for years to have out new site approved to start building. It's amazing how idiotic the red tape is around here. I've got a HT design company doing the design and it should be awesome when it actually gets done! 20 x 24 x 12! Perfect sized room!

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post #13421 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

It's impossible or I would have done it lol Where the projector has to go, where I have to sit, it would pull the wall out to much and be a disaster acoustically. Not in this house anyways!
Same here, I figure I would lose about 2' if I go AT screen and that would seat me at about 10' or 11'. However my project has been put on hold again since the guy I really wanted to help me build it gave me an insane bid to build it, I am still in shock at his proposed bid. This place I live in will never cease to amaze me. It is either the guy never shows up to do the job or the guy that does show up wants to retire off the one job you give him. When I say I cannot find some one to help me build this project, I mean it. I am just bummed beyond belief. I have decided that I am going to do it myself, this is going to be good or really, really bad.
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post #13422 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Same here, I figure I would lose about 2' if I go AT screen and that would seat me at about 10' or 11'. However my project has been put on hold again since the guy I really wanted to help me build it gave me an insane bid to build it, I am still in shock at his proposed bid. This place I live in will never cease to amaze me. It is either the guy never shows up to do the job or the guy that does show up wants to retire off the one job you give him. When I say I cannot find some one to help me build this project, I mean it. I am just bummed beyond belief. I have decided that I am going to do it myself, this is going to be good or really, really bad.

LOL, I completely understand. I'm lucky that my 1 brother in law has his own carpentry business along with designers and everything else. He generally only does multi million dollar super high end stuff but will do all of out stuff as well. He charges quite a bit but you know you're not getting ripped off and he always does very top notch work! I'm lucky since I've had some horrible experiences with contractors in the past and with him, he's always willing to do whatever we want.

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post #13423 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

LOL, I completely understand. I'm lucky that my 1 brother in law has his own carpentry business along with designers and everything else. He generally only does multi million dollar super high end stuff but will do all of out stuff as well. He charges quite a bit but you know you're not getting ripped off and he always does very top notch work! I'm lucky since I've had some horrible experiences with contractors in the past and with him, he's always willing to do whatever we want.
I knew this this guy would be high, he does great work and a nice guy, but there is high and then outer space. Before this joker there was one of my best friends growing up and he just basically bailed on me and really put me on the spot considering that I wanted this started in September. Everyone I would even trust to do it is somehow all the sudden busy, doing what I don't know, two years ago all these guys were losing their Harleys and boats and not to mention their shirt and now I cannot pay someone to do this simple project I have lined up. The only guys willing to come are Larry, Curley and Moe biggrin.gif
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post #13424 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

LOL, I completely understand. I'm lucky that my 1 brother in law has his own carpentry business along with designers and everything else. He generally only does multi million dollar super high end stuff but will do all of out stuff as well. He charges quite a bit but you know you're not getting ripped off and he always does very top notch work! I'm lucky since I've had some horrible experiences with contractors in the past and with him, he's always willing to do whatever we want.

I can't say enough about good contractors. I have used the same contractor for 3 projects at the old house and 1 project at the new house. They aren't the cheapest or most expensive but you get what you pay for. Their projects are always on time and everything goes super smooth. They get all the details right and manage the project very efficiently. They take a ton of time to get the finishes right. I have talked to friends, family and co-workers and some have had really bad experiences with their contractor. Issues with talking way longer than projected, not doing quality work, not planning out the project out right, not anticipating problems, etc... Not worth it. They end up pulling their hair out in frustration. We had one neighbor who had the kitchen remodel take 9 months...9 friggin months. Ours took like 3 weeks and it was a complete gut job and involved moving a wall. I would recommend my contractor to any friend or family member and I think that is the sign of a good contractor.
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post #13425 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I can't say enough about good contractors. I have used the same contractor for 3 projects at the old house and 1 project at the new house. They aren't the cheapest or most expensive but you get what you pay for. Their projects are always on time and everything goes super smooth. They get all the details right and manage the project very efficiently. They take a ton of time to get the finishes right. I have talked to friends, family and co-workers and some have had really bad experiences with their contractor. Issues with talking way longer than projected, not doing quality work, not planning out the project out right, not anticipating problems, etc... Not worth it. They end up pulling their hair out in frustration. We had one neighbor who had the kitchen remodel take 9 months...9 friggin months. Ours took like 3 weeks and it was a complete gut job and involved moving a wall. I would recommend my contractor to any friend or family member and I think that is the sign of a good contractor.
The best part was he said this was just his work, this was not including the electric, HVAC and the guy going to help with the electronics. If he would have gave me this bid fit to finish, I may of entertained it and told him to start it. I don't mind paying for quality, I want quality work. I think this guy bid the job this way because he does not want to do it.
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post #13426 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Looks great! It's just all business the way it's chock-a-block full with horn and drivers.

Do you know if Jeff expecting similar output (100dB/W/m; 70Hz etc) to the 212HT-LP?

Oh sorry, I didn't see this, Yes the specs are very similar to the 212lp. 24kz to 70hz +-3dB and close to the same sensitivity. Recommend xover is 80hz.

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post #13427 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 08:48 PM
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Great post. Thanks for your input as I'm certainly no expert on the topic and discussions like this usually lead to a better understanding of the topic than I had before.

I do know that Audyssey's DEQ compensation algorithm is not based off the Fletcher curves. Chris has stated that they don't really apply well to how we hear loudness in small rooms according to his research. So the algorithm is based on some other proprietary information.

Also....ah crap. I have to get back to work for a bit but I don't want to lose this so I'm posting a partially done response. biggrin.gif. I'll continue this in a bit.

I have tried to EQ to this curve somewhat myself particularily in the bass region. It does make sense, since the bass perception decreases at a slower rate vs higher freq, the dynamic eq adds bass relative to higher freq as the volume goes down. On my pre pro dynamic eq has full, half and off settings (not dolby volume but dynamic EQ). I like it on half the best. I have never tested with REW the various dyn EQ modes at various volume levels. I should do it and see if I come out close to the above FM curves like the chart above. At one time when Emotiva was launching the XMC-1 with TACT audio it was stated that the auto EQ was based on the FM curves. Now that they are going with Dirac live I don't know if that is still the case. I have seen some people say that recording engineers account for all of this and that is why we should have flat FR in our systems. I have never found that to be to my liking. If it was I probably wouldn't own any horn subs.

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post #13428 of 22434 Old 12-06-2013, 10:09 PM
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I just want to throw out there that I've spent the last couple hours listening to my JTR setup through Pandora, and really enjoying myself. I just don't think audio nirvana gets much better than this.


JTR for the win!

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post #13429 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 12:01 AM
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And my wife just came down and asked why I'm still down here listening to music at 2am in the morning?


Cause its just that good babe...
Cause its just that good.

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post #13430 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

And my wife just came down and asked why I'm still down here listening to music at 2am in the morning?


Cause its just that good babe...
Cause its just that good.

Been there, done that. biggrin.gif

It's good to know there are others like me...cool.gif

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post #13431 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I have tried to EQ to this curve somewhat myself particularily in the bass region. It does make sense, since the bass perception decreases at a slower rate vs higher freq, the dynamic eq adds bass relative to higher freq as the volume goes down. On my pre pro dynamic eq has full, half and off settings (not dolby volume but dynamic EQ). I like it on half the best. I have never tested with REW the various dyn EQ modes at various volume levels. I should do it and see if I come out close to the above FM curves like the chart above. At one time when Emotiva was launching the XMC-1 with TACT audio it was stated that the auto EQ was based on the FM curves. Now that they are going with Dirac live I don't know if that is still the case. I have seen some people say that recording engineers account for all of this and that is why we should have flat FR in our systems. I have never found that to be to my liking. If it was I probably wouldn't own any horn subs.

There is a difference between applying these curves to correct for relative volume differences and applying the curves to a calibrated FR. There is no compensation necessary for the latter. The brain already compensates since it spends an entire lifetime dealing with it smile.gif.

Do you think a house curve is related somehow to the Fletcher Munson curves? (that question is for you too Popalock). Personally, I don't think the two are related or that the Fletcher Munson curves are the reason more bass is preferred. In other words, true-true but unrelated.

The reason is that I think the brain 100% compensates for the FM curves, it's just normal hearing.

I may be understanding your responses wrong, but you guys seem to be implying that the calibrated FR should be tilted up to compensate for the FM curves?

I don't know which is correct, but there is no doubt that more bass is often preferred compared to a flat FR.

Interesting stuff. I know I've read comments from some of the expert contributers around here on this topic before, but I really can't recall exactly what their take on it was.

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post #13432 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 05:21 AM
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There is a difference between applying these curves to correct for relative volume differences and applying the curves to a calibrated FR. There is no compensation necessary for the latter. The brain already compensates since it spends an entire lifetime dealing with it smile.gif.

Do you think a house curve is related somehow to the Fletcher Munson curves? (that question is for you too Popalock). Personally, I don't think the two are related or that the Fletcher Munson curves are the reason more bass is preferred. In other words, true-true but unrelated.

The reason is that I think the brain 100% compensates for the FM curves, it's just normal hearing.

I may be understanding your responses wrong, but you guys seem to be implying that the calibrated FR should be tilted up to compensate for the FM curves?

I don't know which is correct, but there is no doubt that more bass is often preferred compared to a flat FR.

Interesting stuff. I know I've read comments from some of the expert contributers around here on this topic before, but I really can't recall exactly what their take on it was.

that is interesting. I agree in the difference bewtween applyin the curves for FR and relative volume differences but only in the context that applying the curve for a FR is done in a static way or at a specific SPL. The dynamic volume is adjusting it in a dynamic way because it is MV dependant.

I may be oversimplifying but the way I looked at it is the house curves are in part a reflection of the FM study on hearing perception. I say in part because it is also personal preference to take the slopes of the FR in one direction or another vs perceived flat FR which is what I believe the FM curve to be for an "average" individual. So basically if you look at a static snap shot at a given SPL (say 80dB) for 1Khz and apply a house curve that matches the FM curve at that SPL, then the dynamic EQ will try to make sure as the SPL goes up or down the FR will match the appropriate FM curve at the new SPL.

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post #13433 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 07:00 AM
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post #13434 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 07:07 AM
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I posted this back in August. Today they are playing for the Conference USA championship. They may get SMOKED but at least they made it this far. eek.gifbiggrin.gifsmile.gif

GO HERD!!!

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Great day for football today. I am driving to Indy for the Big Ten championship game tonight. GO BUCKS!!!!! smile.gif
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post #13435 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 07:34 AM
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that is interesting. I agree in the difference bewtween applyin the curves for FR and relative volume differences but only in the context that applying the curve for a FR is done in a static way or at a specific SPL. The dynamic volume is adjusting it in a dynamic way because it is MV dependant.

I may be oversimplifying but the way I looked at it is the house curves are in part a reflection of the FM study on hearing perception. I say in part because it is also personal preference to take the slopes of the FR in one direction or another vs perceived flat FR which is what I believe the FM curve to be for an "average" individual. So basically if you look at a static snap shot at a given SPL (say 80dB) for 1Khz and apply a house curve that matches the FM curve at that SPL, then the dynamic EQ will try to make sure as the SPL goes up or down the FR will match the appropriate FM curve at the new SPL.

Audio is like video for me in the sense that I have my plasma professionally calibrated because I want the color red, for example, to be the same red that was captured by the camera(or what the director/mixer intended).

With audio, I want the vocal/instruments/sound effects to sound like what was captured by the mic(or what the director/mixer intended).

The difference between audio and video is that sound waves are impacted by rooms and light waves are not. So there are modifications to the FR curve necessary to compensate for that, but it has nothing to do with FM curves.

Many people like blown out colors on their TV's, that's why store displays are set in "torch" mode. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the eye has different sensitivities to certain colors. It's simply a preference, like a favorite color.

Look at this chart:


Would you then calibrate your display with boosted red and blue to compensate?

I certainly wouldn't because the brain already compensates for this varying sensitivity - and its called normal vision biggrin.gif . Audio is the same aside from the compensation necessary due to room effects. Additional bass boost to the FR is simply preference, like "torch mode" but it is not accurate reproduction and has nothing to do with the FM curves IMO for the reasons above. biggrin.gif

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post #13436 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Audio is like video for me in the sense that I have my plasma professionally calibrated because I want the color red, for example, to be the same red that was captured by the camera(or what the director/mixer intended).

With audio, I want the vocal/instruments/sound effects to sound like what was captured by the mic(or what the director/mixer intended).

The difference between audio and video is that sound waves are impacted by rooms and light waves are not. So there are modifications to the FR curve necessary to compensate for that, but it has nothing to do with FM curves.

Many people like blown out colors on their TV's, that's why store displays are set in "torch" mode. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the eye has different sensitivities to certain colors. It's simply a preference, like a favorite color.

Look at this chart:


Would you then calibrate your display with boosted red and blue to compensate?

I certainly wouldn't because the brain already compensates for this varying sensitivity - and its called normal vision biggrin.gif . Audio is the same aside from the compensation necessary due to room effects. Additional bass boost to the FR is simply preference, like "torch mode" but it is not accurate reproduction and has nothing to do with the FM curves IMO for the reasons above. biggrin.gif

Interesting post doc. smile.gif . I think that for FP systems the bat cave room will have a picture with more pop than a room with light walls/ceilings and so the rooms influence on PQ is considerable.

I agree with your take on audio and prefer to hear what the sound engineer intended me to hear. When I started this crazy HT quest the goal was to have a mini IMAX at home. I think I am there now and that is why I have no (as in zero) interest in pursuing the mostly unintended <15Hz frequencies. If the best IMAX's don't reproduce this stuff I certainly don't care about it. I know what infrasonics feel like (there is no sound except the mechanics of the woofers working) and if I want to be nauseated, I can drive around with the back windows in my car down just the right amount. Over emphasized bass on any level is well ... over emphasized ... tongue.gif

Sorry if I got a little off topic but this is a sandbox of a Thread anyway ... wink.gif

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post #13437 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 09:00 AM
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Interesting post doc. smile.gif . I think that for FP systems the bat cave room will have a picture with more pop than a room with light walls/ceilings and so the rooms influence on PQ is considerable.

I agree with your take on audio and prefer to hear what the sound engineer intended me to hear. When I started this crazy HT quest the goal was to have a mini IMAX at home. I think I am there now and that is why I have no (as in zero) interest in pursuing the mostly unintended <15Hz frequencies. If the best IMAX's don't reproduce this stuff I certainly don't care about it. I know what infrasonics feel like (there is no sound except the mechanics of the woofers working) and if I want to be nauseated, I can drive around with the back windows in my car down just the right amount. Over emphasized bass on any level is well ... over emphasized ... tongue.gif

Sorry if I got a little off topic but this is a sandbox of a Thread anyway ... wink.gif

Yep, you are correct, displays are impacted by the room as well! But compensation for that follows the same logic as on the audio side. You're compensating for the room, not the sensitivity chart.

I'm basically with you on the ULF stuff too, although I also have the OCD side that says, if it's there on purpose then it needs to be reproduced smile.gif. But, at the same time, only at the level intended for the soundtrack.

Which brings me to what seems to be the whole point of an LFE channel. It seems its only reason to exist at all is so an obnoxiously overemphasized bass tilt can be applied selectively to specific parts of a soundtrack, leaving the remainder of the soundtrack "accurate" and so all the voices don't sound like Dennis Haysbert in those Allstate commercials biggrin.gif

Oh, btw, is there such a thing as off topic in the JTR thread? wink.gif.

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post #13438 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 09:33 AM
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I just want to throw out there that I've spent the last couple hours listening to my JTR setup through Pandora, and really enjoying myself. I just don't think audio nirvana gets much better than this.


JTR for the win!


Nice!

However, please tell me you now have a sweet spot seat? If not force yourself to try it out for a few weeks and I'm betting you won't want to go back. You have plenty of room between the left wall and the far left seat to have a sweet spot so don't give me that excuse. tongue.gif
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post #13439 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Audio is like video for me in the sense that I have my plasma professionally calibrated because I want the color red, for example, to be the same red that was captured by the camera(or what the director/mixer intended).

With audio, I want the vocal/instruments/sound effects to sound like what was captured by the mic(or what the director/mixer intended).

The difference between audio and video is that sound waves are impacted by rooms and light waves are not. So there are modifications to the FR curve necessary to compensate for that, but it has nothing to do with FM curves.

Many people like blown out colors on their TV's, that's why store displays are set in "torch" mode. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the eye has different sensitivities to certain colors. It's simply a preference, like a favorite color.

Look at this chart:


Would you then calibrate your display with boosted red and blue to compensate?

I certainly wouldn't because the brain already compensates for this varying sensitivity - and its called normal vision biggrin.gif . Audio is the same aside from the compensation necessary due to room effects. Additional bass boost to the FR is simply preference, like "torch mode" but it is not accurate reproduction and has nothing to do with the FM curves IMO for the reasons above. biggrin.gif
So if you set your FR to flat will recordings sound as the engineer intended?

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Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
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post #13440 of 22434 Old 12-07-2013, 10:01 AM
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Could any of you point me in the right direction to learn about proper calibration techniques? I could use the XT32 Audessy on my Denon X4000, but it appears that you guys don't trust it with the JTR speakers. My room is going to be a headache for sound me thinks.

I am a complete neophyte in the ways of audio, so expect alot of stupidity from my direction.


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