Official JTR speaker thread - Page 448 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13411 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

My first reply incorrect. At computer now and I see I didn't pick up on the inconsistencies with the trims and SPL. Lesson: Don't reply on phone when out with kids smile.gif.

Your numbers don't make a lot of sense. At first I read it as all your T12's were maxed out of trim and reading 75 dB. I see that's not the case. I don't trust your RS meter at this point. It is possible that the Pro calibration is screwed up, but I don't think I've ever seen inconsistent values like that with my kit. Either the RF of 75 dB is wrong or the SL and SR of 71 dB is wrong. The RS meter is typically not absolutely correct, but usually relatively correct. The pro mic is usually correct both ways.

I would run a quick 3 position Pro cal again and see what the numbers are since things don't seem right.
They should all be level matched at the same dB after a Pro calibration

Edit: Oh, and BTW, nice system you have there. It really deserves a nice calibrated mic to measure it and is a small investment compared to what you've spent. As far as value/SQ ratio goes, measuring gear has the highest return on investment in audio IMO.
I do have a mini dsp Umik-1 USB mic to use with REW, just haven't used it yet:D. I have just read that some nearfield or close to nearfield rooms the surrounds are set 2 db lower which would be pretty close to what I am seeing with those measurements (I am unsure if my room would qualify as nearfield 14' X 14' with left side wall open and surrounds are 7.5' & 8' from MLP) my surrounds are at, although that doesn't explain the RF being 1 db higher. I have listened by ear and my RF is louder. I have adjusted it by -1.5 db and it sounds and measures the same as the LF & C speakers. I will measure again tonight to see if I get different measurements.

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post #13412 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

I do have a mini dsp Umik-1 USB mic to use with REW, just haven't used it yet:D. I have just read that some nearfield or close to nearfield rooms the surrounds are set 2 db lower which would be pretty close to what I am seeing with those measurements (I am unsure if my room would qualify as nearfield 14' X 14' with left side wall open and surrounds are 7.5' & 8' from MLP) my surrounds are at, although that doesn't explain the RF being 1 db higher. I have listened by ear and my RF is louder. I have adjusted it by -1.5 db and it sounds and measures the same as the LF & C speakers. I will measure again tonight to see if I get different measurements.

There is no reason(I'm aware of) Audyssey would set your surrounds 2 dB low. What is the reasoning behind that? "Nearfield" is a relative term, but my surrounds are 4 ft from my seating and all my speakers are set at 75 dB.

Please post repeat numbers with the Umik biggrin.gif. You can't use an RS meter to verify Pro measurements.
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post #13413 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

There is no reason(I'm aware of) Audyssey would set your surrounds 2 dB low. What is the reasoning behind that? "Nearfield" is a relative term, but my surrounds are 4 ft from my seating and all my speakers are set at 75 dB.

Please post repeat numbers with the Umik biggrin.gif. You can't use an RS meter to verify Pro measurements.

Well i have to figure out how to use that Mic and REW so that may take me a day or two. I certainly should be able to level match all 5 speakers to the same en reading on the rat shack meter right. So I will do another audyssey pro measurement with just 6 positions and see if i still get these weird numbers.

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post #13414 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 09:12 PM
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One day while perusing AVS, looking for info on speakers, I came across the JTR speakers. I wasn't actively looking to upgrade, but you know how upgradeitis is! After spending considerable time in the PSA thread, I kept reading posts by jbrown15, and saw that he lived in my metropolitan area.

After contacting jbrown15, we discovered he only lived 12 minutes down the road smile.gif. What made this even better was he owned the two pieces of equipment on my list of possible upgrades: JTR Noesis 228HT, and the PSA XS30 subwoofer. Some messages were exchanged, and I was able to make my way to jbrown15's house on Sunday. jbrown15 (Joe), was a great host and we were able to spend a couple of hours demoing his system.

Now, I'm a novice relative to the knowledge many, many forum members have. I'm continually amazed at how much the guys on AVS know about this hobby. I wanted to share a couple of my observations, and also to thank Joe on the forum here.

Joe has a great space in his basement and he did a considerable amount of the work himself. At present, the space is undergoing a transformation with a soon to be installed AT screen, and some new carpet and A/V rack. The point is, I really liked the space, especially because it's similar in size to mine. Nicely done, Joe!

From reading the specs on the JTR website, I had an idea how big the 228's were, but seeing is believing. The speakers are certainly not small! The 228 on it's side as a center channel looked rather imposing.

As I said earlier, I'm not confident in my ability to analyze how something sounded, and I don't think I have a particularly good ear. I just try to do what everyone says and if it sounds good to me that's all that matters. Let me tell you, these 228s were spectacular. In fact, the whole theatre system sounded unbelievable, including the PSA subs. At higher volumes, the speakers were crystal clear, but I particularly noticed how they sounded at lower volumes. During movie demos all dialogue was easy to understand, and I felt like the sound really brought me "into the movie".

As for music, I probably talked too much, and we were short on time, and were only able to play a few tunes, but The Eagles "Hotel California" sounded just amazing. I generally don't have time to sit and listen to music at home, but I have to say I really enjoyed the few tracks we did hear. If I owned a set of the 228s, I could see myself definitely listening to more music! Indeed, Joe has found that to be his own experience since he got the 228s. I think if a set of speakers can get you to listen to music when you never did before, that's a pretty strong endorsement.

Thanks again to Joe, and I can't wait to see the space again after the current upgrade is complete.
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post #13415 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

Well i have to figure out how to use that Mic and REW so that may take me a day or two. I certainly should be able to level match all 5 speakers to the same en reading on the rat shack meter right. So I will do another audyssey pro measurement with just 6 positions and see if i still get these weird numbers.

Good luck man! Not too hard to get things going with the USB mic. Not nearly as hard as dealing with an external soundcard.
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post #13416 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Good luck man! Not too hard to get things going with the USB mic. Not nearly as hard as dealing with an external soundcard.
Thanks I need all the luck I can get! I am sure it is much easier, just every time I start down one of these paths it always involves more time than expected and undoubtedly some frustration and usually more $$$rolleyes.gif

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post #13417 of 35293 Old 12-09-2013, 10:41 PM
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post #13418 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 06:15 AM
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After finally getting my 4 subs optimized in my room the SQ is off the hook. It not only improved my bass, but also the overall clarity of the 212's. Sick.

That's all smile.gif
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post #13419 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 07:57 AM
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Let me see if I understand this, [my speakers are T12 LCR/ DefTech ProMonitor 1000 Surrounds & Seaton HP + & Slave subs] in my case using a Denon AVR4311 that maxes at -12db and using the audyssey pro kit with 12 measurements my results are as follows: LF -12, C -12, RF -9, SL -1.5, SR 0 & Sub -5. If I use a Rat Shack digital SPL meter on tripod at MLP with AVR test tones & MV at 0 I get LF 74 db, C 74 db, RF 75 db, SL 71 db, SR 71 db & Sub 70 db. I realize that the rat shack meter is not as precise as the pro mic so 74 db might be 76 db actually, but shouldn't they all be level matched to the same db? Or are the surrounds set 3 - 4 db lower? and what about the sub it is 4 - 5 db lower?


Couple situations here:

~Your system is maxing out the trims on your 4311 so they speakers are not going to calibrate correctly until you find a way to trim down your amps. If they have gain knobs, turn them down some, if they don't, you may need in-line attenuators. You don't want your final Aud. results to read out -12 on the trims.

~AVR test tones are PRE-audyssey tones so they don't take into account the equalization that has taken place post audyssey. Yes the tones should be accurate if your system was relatively flat to start with, problem is, most people's aren't. You need to get that REW rig up and start testing to see the results. What you might see is that the RS meter is picking up on a peak in the response that may be 75dB's, while the rest of the response is at 72dB, and my blindly level matching, you are making it worse than it was to start with.

~Yes, the speakers should all level match to the same dB, but the best way to test this is once again with post audyssey pink noise. Using the generator on REW will work much better. running sweeps for each speaker and overlaying them will also show you what you are hearing.

~The sub is pretty typically set too low not only by audyssey standards, but by most people's personal preference as well. This more than likely needs to be bumped up as well smile.gif
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post #13420 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

After finally getting my 4 subs optimized in my room the SQ is off the hook. It not only improved my bass, but also the overall clarity of the 212's. Sick.

That's all smile.gif

Great to hear! So what else did you do?
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post #13421 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Couple situations here:

~Your system is maxing out the trims on your 4311 so they speakers are not going to calibrate correctly until you find a way to trim down your amps. If they have gain knobs, turn them down some, if they don't, you may need in-line attenuators. You don't want your final Aud. results to read out -12 on the trims.

~AVR test tones are PRE-audyssey tones so they don't take into account the equalization that has taken place post audyssey. Yes the tones should be accurate if your system was relatively flat to start with, problem is, most people's aren't. You need to get that REW rig up and start testing to see the results. What you might see is that the RS meter is picking up on a peak in the response that may be 75dB's, while the rest of the response is at 72dB, and my blindly level matching, you are making it worse than it was to start with.

~Yes, the speakers should all level match to the same dB, but the best way to test this is once again with post audyssey pink noise. Using the generator on REW will work much better. running sweeps for each speaker and overlaying them will also show you what you are hearing.

~The sub is pretty typically set too low not only by audyssey standards, but by most people's personal preference as well. This more than likely needs to be bumped up as well smile.gif
Thanks for the response, I didn't realize that the AVR test tones are PRE-audyssey so that explains a lot (my pre-audyssey response is NOT relatively flat - several peaks & dips particularly with the FL, FR & SL). I can of course buy some in-line attenuators, but I was trying to determine how many db off the maxed speakers were so I could choose the proper attenuator or just add db using the level settings to the speakers not maxed. Are you saying that audyssey can't properly EQ my system because it can't set the the RF & C speakers to the proper levels? If that's the case why all this talk here about just changing the MV to offset for the maxed speakers? I am slowly moving towards learning/understanding how to use REW (actually I am procrastinating) and my usb UMIK-1 mic. - I bought the mic in August but haven't even made an attempt yet to hook up and measure anything. I did print out AustinJerry's guide so guess it's time to speed up the process;)

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post #13422 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 09:25 AM
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I have my reservations that Audyssey can still EQ your individual speaker properly when the trims are maxed, but for SURE it can't get it to level match with the rest of the system this way. I still prefer to see my trim levels somewhere close to zero. A simple 12dB attenuator can do that for you. plain and simple.
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post #13423 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

Thanks for the response, I didn't realize that the AVR test tones are PRE-audyssey so that explains a lot (my pre-audyssey response is NOT relatively flat - several peaks & dips particularly with the FL, FR & SL). I can of course buy some in-line attenuators, but I was trying to determine how many db off the maxed speakers were so I could choose the proper attenuator or just add db using the level settings to the speakers not maxed. Are you saying that audyssey can't properly EQ my system because it can't set the the RF & C speakers to the proper levels? If that's the case why all this talk here about just changing the MV to offset for the maxed speakers? I am slowly moving towards learning/understanding how to use REW (actually I am procrastinating) and my usb UMIK-1 mic. - I bought the mic in August but haven't even made an attempt yet to hook up and measure anything. I did print out AustinJerry's guide so guess it's time to speed up the process;)

Don't buy any attenuators as I have three -15db ones you can try out and keep if they work for you ...


Never mind ... I forgot mine are XLR -F to XLR-M , not RCA and you will need RCA for the Denon.

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post #13424 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 10:38 AM
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Ah, but I have three I don't need anymore. PM me your address if you want and I'll send them out to you.
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post #13425 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 10:53 AM
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just put your levels manually after audyssey is done. attenuators dont do anything other than speaker levels. Do a pro calibration amd overlay the maxed out eq vs the eq with attenuators.... they will be identical. I give customers printouts all the time and run into max out trims quite a bit. Ive yet to see much, if any difference in the overall eq with attenuators inplace, just trim levels and no 0 as reference. save 60$ and dont bother. I have q set of -15 xlr if anyone want them to try out for themselves.

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post #13426 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 02:26 PM
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just put your levels manually after audyssey is done. attenuators dont do anything other than speaker levels. Do a pro calibration amd overlay the maxed out eq vs the eq with attenuators.... they will be identical. I give customers printouts all the time and run into max out trims quite a bit. Ive yet to see much, if any difference in the overall eq with attenuators inplace, just trim levels and no 0 as reference. save 60$ and dont bother. I have q set of -15 xlr if anyone want them to try out for themselves.
I believe you on this, but i need to figure out what db to add to the non maxed out speaker so they are all level matched right.

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post #13427 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by stsand View Post

One day while perusing AVS, looking for info on speakers, I came across the JTR speakers. I wasn't actively looking to upgrade, but you know how upgradeitis is! After spending considerable time in the PSA thread, I kept reading posts by jbrown15, and saw that he lived in my metropolitan area.

After contacting jbrown15, we discovered he only lived 12 minutes down the road smile.gif. What made this even better was he owned the two pieces of equipment on my list of possible upgrades: JTR Noesis 228HT, and the PSA XS30 subwoofer. Some messages were exchanged, and I was able to make my way to jbrown15's house on Sunday. jbrown15 (Joe), was a great host and we were able to spend a couple of hours demoing his system.

Now, I'm a novice relative to the knowledge many, many forum members have. I'm continually amazed at how much the guys on AVS know about this hobby. I wanted to share a couple of my observations, and also to thank Joe on the forum here.

Joe has a great space in his basement and he did a considerable amount of the work himself. At present, the space is undergoing a transformation with a soon to be installed AT screen, and some new carpet and A/V rack. The point is, I really liked the space, especially because it's similar in size to mine. Nicely done, Joe!

From reading the specs on the JTR website, I had an idea how big the 228's were, but seeing is believing. The speakers are certainly not small! The 228 on it's side as a center channel looked rather imposing.

As I said earlier, I'm not confident in my ability to analyze how something sounded, and I don't think I have a particularly good ear. I just try to do what everyone says and if it sounds good to me that's all that matters. Let me tell you, these 228s were spectacular. In fact, the whole theatre system sounded unbelievable, including the PSA subs. At higher volumes, the speakers were crystal clear, but I particularly noticed how they sounded at lower volumes. During movie demos all dialogue was easy to understand, and I felt like the sound really brought me "into the movie".

As for music, I probably talked too much, and we were short on time, and were only able to play a few tunes, but The Eagles "Hotel California" sounded just amazing. I generally don't have time to sit and listen to music at home, but I have to say I really enjoyed the few tracks we did hear. If I owned a set of the 228s, I could see myself definitely listening to more music! Indeed, Joe has found that to be his own experience since he got the 228s. I think if a set of speakers can get you to listen to music when you never did before, that's a pretty strong endorsement.

Thanks again to Joe, and I can't wait to see the space again after the current upgrade is complete.

Thanks for the kind words, it was great having you over to hear my speakers. smile.gif
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post #13428 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 03:20 PM
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Are there any JTR speaker owners near Louisville, KY that would allow me to listen to your system? I am curious how they compare to my Aerial Acoustics.

David Lynch Current Equipment: Marantz 8801, Datasat RA7300 (Proceed HPA3 (sold) and Parasound HCA-1206 for sale), Aerial Acoustics LR5's (LCR), Aerial Acoustics LR3's (sides), RBH in-walls (rears), Seaton Submersive, Marantz VP15s1, 106" Carada BW screen, Oppo BDP-103.
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post #13429 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 03:23 PM
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Was Just kidding man! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

There is not a good answer to the question because a lot of this is more theory and ideal scenario dreamland than real life achievable stuff(re: industry standards).
I just spent considerable time placing and optimizing my four subs and then I followed that up with an Audyssey Pro calibration.

Here's my three front row seating positions:




Now, I try not to drink too much of the Audyssey Kool-Aid, but I do have to admit that I do think these curves represent the best chance of hearing the soundtrack as intended. That being said, my preference is for a bit more bass, perhaps a 3dB boost, but my opinion is that this bass boost probably moves me a small step away from the chance I'm going to hear the soundtrack as intended. A 10-15 dB boost seems to me to reasonably eliminate the chance you're hearing an accurate reproduction of intent.

And I'm NOT saying that is bad, I'm just saying it is preference, not a better reproduction of intent or accuracy. But, I can't stress enough that this is all just my current opinion, subject to future change as a result of any potential future enlightenment biggrin.gif.

That must sound like crap smile.gif

Actually run a few high DB sweeps with speakers disconnected - checking for any compression with sub placement - if holds same response up to your expected reference levels
pack the measuring gear away and bring on the music and movies. Looks great - enjoy

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post #13430 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stsand View Post

One day while perusing AVS, looking for info on speakers, I came across the JTR speakers. I wasn't actively looking to upgrade, but you know how upgradeitis is! After spending considerable time in the PSA thread, I kept reading posts by jbrown15, and saw that he lived in my metropolitan area.

After contacting jbrown15, we discovered he only lived 12 minutes down the road smile.gif. What made this even better was he owned the two pieces of equipment on my list of possible upgrades: JTR Noesis 228HT, and the PSA XS30 subwoofer. Some messages were exchanged, and I was able to make my way to jbrown15's house on Sunday. jbrown15 (Joe), was a great host and we were able to spend a couple of hours demoing his system.

Now, I'm a novice relative to the knowledge many, many forum members have. I'm continually amazed at how much the guys on AVS know about this hobby. I wanted to share a couple of my observations, and also to thank Joe on the forum here.

Joe has a great space in his basement and he did a considerable amount of the work himself. At present, the space is undergoing a transformation with a soon to be installed AT screen, and some new carpet and A/V rack. The point is, I really liked the space, especially because it's similar in size to mine. Nicely done, Joe!

From reading the specs on the JTR website, I had an idea how big the 228's were, but seeing is believing. The speakers are certainly not small! The 228 on it's side as a center channel looked rather imposing.

As I said earlier, I'm not confident in my ability to analyze how something sounded, and I don't think I have a particularly good ear. I just try to do what everyone says and if it sounds good to me that's all that matters. Let me tell you, these 228s were spectacular. In fact, the whole theatre system sounded unbelievable, including the PSA subs. At higher volumes, the speakers were crystal clear, but I particularly noticed how they sounded at lower volumes. During movie demos all dialogue was easy to understand, and I felt like the sound really brought me "into the movie".

As for music, I probably talked too much, and we were short on time, and were only able to play a few tunes, but The Eagles "Hotel California" sounded just amazing. I generally don't have time to sit and listen to music at home, but I have to say I really enjoyed the few tracks we did hear. If I owned a set of the 228s, I could see myself definitely listening to more music! Indeed, Joe has found that to be his own experience since he got the 228s. I think if a set of speakers can get you to listen to music when you never did before, that's a pretty strong endorsement.

Thanks again to Joe, and I can't wait to see the space again after the current upgrade is complete.



Very cool, thanks for giving your impressions! Demo's are so much fun.
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post #13431 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 04:07 PM
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Are there any JTR speaker owners near Louisville, KY that would allow me to listen to your system? I am curious how they compare to my Aerial Acoustics.

I am in Cincinnati and have a 7.2 JTR system. Don't know if that is close enough for you. You can see them in the link of my signature if that helps. I will likely be selling my front three JTR speakers early next year as I have a buyer pretty much lined up but I will be replacing them with three new JTR speakers...so either way, they will be JTR smile.gif
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post #13432 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post

That must sound like crap smile.gif

Actually run a few high DB sweeps with speakers disconnected - checking for any compression with sub placement - if holds same response up to your expected reference levels
pack the measuring gear away and bring on the music and movies. Looks great - enjoy

105 dB full sweep. Looks like an f3 of around 8 Hz. Not crazy about that dip at around 800 Hz


115 dB subs only. You can see where my CHT 18.1's (HPF=45 Hz) are a little hot compared to the JTR S2's


Hard to do full sweeps above 105 dB. Just too loud. Even above 115 with the subs only is getting nuts. I'll never know how you guys can tolerate 130-140 dB eek.gif

Overall, not bad. I need a couple more S2's to replace the CHT's, but things are ok for now. I have other audio/video fish to fry right now (PJ/screen, etc.)
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post #13433 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GPBURNS View Post


Hard to do full sweeps above 105 dB. Just too loud. Even above 115 with the subs only is getting nuts. I'll never know how you guys can tolerate 130-140 dB eek.gif

Overall, not bad. I need a couple more S2's to replace the CHT's, but things are ok for now. I have other audio/video fish to fry right now (PJ/screen, etc.)
earplugs help when doing silly loud sweeps
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post #13434 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 09:57 PM
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Man, I had another Noesis moment tonight. I listened to the entire Metallica S&M album, both discs. It's so funny to me that I bought my speakers to use only for movies and now I find myself just hanging out relax in my theatre room listening to music now eek.gif
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post #13435 of 35293 Old 12-10-2013, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

earplugs help when doing silly loud sweeps

Roger that! smile.gif

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Man, I had another Noesis moment tonight. I listened to the entire Metallica S&M album, both discs. It's so funny to me that I bought my speakers to use only for movies and now I find myself just hanging out relax in my theatre room listening to music now eek.gif

Hey, me too! Just got done listening for a good 1.5-2 hrs. Great stuff! cool.gif
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post #13436 of 35293 Old 12-11-2013, 04:16 AM
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Man, I had another Noesis moment tonight. I listened to the entire Metallica S&M album, both discs. It's so funny to me that I bought my speakers to use only for movies and now I find myself just hanging out relax in my theatre room listening to music now eek.gif
Try the Blu-Ray "Quebec Magnetic" If you get the chance. Same goes with "The Big Four". Metallica, Slayer, and JTR: the Perfect Storm for Audio Nirvana.smile.gif

Chris

Chris
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post #13437 of 35293 Old 12-11-2013, 06:44 AM
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.
.
.

I suspect that dip's much more visible than audible Doc. wink.gifsmile.gif

Yea, I think your right. biggrin.gif The dip at 2 kHz is the Audyssey midrange compensation dip. I'm real happy with where things are, at least until the next sub purchase. I'm shifting focus temporarily to my PJ and screen purchase. Time to just enjoy for a while wink.gif
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post #13438 of 35293 Old 12-11-2013, 07:03 AM
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Greetings gentlemen. Are there any JTR owners willing to demo in the northern Virginia area? I moved to Chantilly just two months ago and getting the dedicated HT room ready.

I've recently been exposed to the JTR brand and especially intrigued by the movie/music performance many of you are enjoying. After reading all of your positive experiences, I'm considering the 212, 228, Cap 2400, Orbit Shifter, and Cap S2...so if anyone can help me experience any of these, I'd really appreciate it. Otherwise I may have to fly over and visit Jeff cool.gif
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post #13439 of 35293 Old 12-11-2013, 07:10 AM
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Try the Blu-Ray "Quebec Magnetic" If you get the chance. Same goes with "The Big Four". Metallica, Slayer, and JTR: the Perfect Storm for Audio Nirvana.smile.gif

Chris

I remember the audio on S&M not being that great???????............ but it's been YEARS since I listened to it. Quebec is on my wish list. I have the Big Four but haven't popped it in the main system yet. wink.gif

-Kevin
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post #13440 of 35293 Old 12-11-2013, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Greetings gentlemen. Are there any JTR owners willing to demo in the northern Virginia area? I moved to Chantilly just two months ago and getting the dedicated HT room ready.

I've recently been exposed to the JTR brand and especially intrigued by the movie/music performance many of you are enjoying. After reading all of your positive experiences, I'm considering the 212, 228, Cap 2400, Orbit Shifter, and Cap S2...so if anyone can help me experience any of these, I'd really appreciate it. Otherwise I may have to fly over and visit Jeff cool.gif

How far you willing to drive?
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