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Old 01-02-2014, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Is it obvious from 7 foot - like anyone who comes into your house would be like "what's that buzzing"? Carp's much more sensitive to buzzing than me for instance. I can hear it from only about half the distance he can hear it from.

Sorry, left for a bit. Yea nobody would notice it, it is very faint. The heater is on now and I can't hear it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

If you can hear a buzz at 7 ft with the JBL's it will be a lot louder with the JTR's. I really didn't have an issue with my Salks at 86dB but when I plugged the Noesis in I could hear a buzz 12' away.

My fear frown.gif
Is there anything I can do if I don't have dedicated circuits or additional circuit options? Any kind of filter or anything?
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:42 PM
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Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music? I have XT32 now and I'm not sure about it yet for music. For movies I think it's great, and I love what it does for smoothing the bass for music so I can go back to an 80hz crossover - however it boosts the highs. At first it is a very pleasing sound and going back and forth I thought I liked it better - but it gets tiresome after awhile and that's not good for someone that spends way too much time listening to music. It's not bright, more of a "tizzy" sound. For movies I love it. Dynamic EQ is great and the boosted highs don't bother me at all.

Here is what Audyssey does to the highs 1/12 smoothing:






I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music? I have XT32 now and I'm not sure about it yet for music. For movies I think it's great, and I love what it does for smoothing the bass for music so I can go back to an 80hz crossover - however it boosts the highs. At first it is a very pleasing sound and going back and forth I thought I liked it better - but it gets tiresome after awhile and that's not good for someone that spends way too much time listening to music. It's not bright, more of a "tizzy" sound. For movies I love it. Dynamic EQ is great and the boosted highs don't bother me at all.

Here is what Audyssey does to the highs 1/12 smoothing:






I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.

I actually found that I hated music after audyssey. It sounded high and overly bright. It's very tiring to the ears
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Gorilla, so you hard a slight buzz issue with your amp and switched from the monoprice RCA's to these SKAR ones and your problem went away?
If that's the case I'm going to order some to try out.

The noise was significantly reduced to the point where I have to be inches away from the speaker to hear anything. Even with the left surround 2-3 feet away from the closest seat it's not an issue for me.

For those that can hear noise from the listening position - you should probably look at your ground situation first. Even with sensitive speakers (mine are 98+db) it shouldn't be that bad. Try unplugging your cable box completely (HDMI) and see if that resolves. You can also try a cheater plug to see if ground is your issue but you will need to use a NEMA20 --> 15 adapter first to do so. smile.gif
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Old 01-03-2014, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music?


I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.

Man, I constantly toy with turning Audyssey on/off with music. For me it really depends on what I'm listening to. With metal/hard rock I strongly prefer to turn it off. With other stuff (acoustical/jazz) I can tolerate it on, especially at lower volumes.
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:27 AM
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i listen to music generally with audyssey off.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 01-03-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music? I have XT32 now and I'm not sure about it yet for music. For movies I think it's great, and I love what it does for smoothing the bass for music so I can go back to an 80hz crossover - however it boosts the highs. At first it is a very pleasing sound and going back and forth I thought I liked it better - but it gets tiresome after awhile and that's not good for someone that spends way too much time listening to music. It's not bright, more of a "tizzy" sound. For movies I love it. Dynamic EQ is great and the boosted highs don't bother me at all.

Here is what Audyssey does to the highs 1/12 smoothing:






I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.

Is that with Audyssey in music or movie mode? Regardless, it is a very nice FR considering AFAIR, you have few room treatments. I tend to leave Audyssey on but I don't listen to as much music as you guys do and like you, I think it and Dynamic EQ do some movie magic. My best music sessions have been with Audyssey off so I concur with your observations and graph. Thanks for posting ...cool.gif

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Old 01-03-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music? I have XT32 now and I'm not sure about it yet for music. For movies I think it's great, and I love what it does for smoothing the bass for music so I can go back to an 80hz crossover - however it boosts the highs. At first it is a very pleasing sound and going back and forth I thought I liked it better - but it gets tiresome after awhile and that's not good for someone that spends way too much time listening to music. It's not bright, more of a "tizzy" sound. For movies I love it. Dynamic EQ is great and the boosted highs don't bother me at all.

Here is what Audyssey does to the highs 1/12 smoothing:






I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.
Carp I don't have audyssey but looking at the FR I also have the same response especially when listening to music. Seems to fall in line with the Fletcher Munson frequency/SPL sensititvity issue. I think it affects me more with music because on average the music I listen too has less quiet passages than movies, so the overall levels average higher SPL which seem more fatiguing when the 3-5khz range is elevated. I actually like the 3-5khz range slightly depressed. Just my 2 cents
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:49 AM
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I pulled the Orbit Shifter's out of the HT room yesterday as they are going to their new home today. I did a quick Audyssey 3 position and set the Noesis 212's to full range and played some music and movie clips. It has been a long time since I have heard the system without subs and it was a shocking revelation. Restating a well know fact, these speakers must be used with a good subwoofer (or four). I don't know exactly when I became a bass guy, but I am definitely one now.

The 215T's have a pretty high bar to clear ...

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Old 01-03-2014, 07:52 AM
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A bit of a shameless plug, I'm sorry, but your guys' observations about Audyssey are quite consistent with some design choices they made.

Theater room: Sony VPL HW30ES, DIY 100" screen with Seymour Centerstage XD, 5 Revel M105, 2 JBL Studio 210, 4 SVS SB12-NSD, Anthem MRX-300
Living room: Panasonic TC-P60VT60, 3 KEF LS50, Pioneer SW-8, Marantz NR1603
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I pulled the Orbit Shifter's out of the HT room yesterday as they are going to their new home today. I did a quick Audyssey 3 position and set the Noesis 212's to full range and played some music and movie clips. It has been a long time since I have heard the system without subs and it was a shocking revelation. Restating a well know fact, these speakers must be used with a good subwoofer (or four). I don't know exactly when I became a bass guy, but I am definitely one now.

The 215T's have a pretty high bar to clear ...

I don't have the same subs as you, but I do have two dual 18's with each cabinet getting about 3000 watts. Last week I listened to some material without the subs and the Noesis running in Full Range. I had a similar reaction and really can appreciate my subs.

Looking forward to you getting the the 215T's. What is the latest ETA on them?
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Old 01-03-2014, 07:56 AM
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Carp
Play your SACD like Floyds DSOM & Metallica Black. If those recordings sound good then it is the quality of your source material that is fatiguing in the high end. Once I got XT32
trimmed in I can notice major differences in the quality of the recording that I did not notice with Pioneer. The majority of my CD collection sounds bright now. Any SACD I have
sounds correct. Now I seek the best quality recordings possible.
I could always tell a difference between Copies of CDs and the real thing. Since XT32 I can hear quality differences between real CDs.
Chris

With the addition of my T12s I could tell significant differences in recordings as if a veil were lifted. XT32 lifted that veil even higher.
Some CD sound great with it and some sound better without it. WHY?

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Old 01-03-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COACH2369 View Post

I don't have the same subs as you, but I do have two dual 18's with each cabinet getting about 3000 watts. Last week I listened to some material without the subs and the Noesis running in Full Range. I had a similar reaction and really can appreciate my subs.

Looking forward to you getting the the 215T's. What is the latest ETA on them?

I am creating a bit of a deadline by scheduling a GTG for the end of March (the 29th) . I can just see it now, the speakers arrive on Friday afternoon and we spend all night on Friday setting them up for the GTG on Saturday ... Thats the way things are in the Beta Tester world ... redface.gifsmile.gif

BTW, Keith Yates has penciled in this GTG on his Calendar so that immediately elevates this GTG to a University level session on room acoustics and home theater. I also suggested that Scott Wilkinson attend as he could record a PODCAST with Keith and do a little session on AVS GTG's (two podcasts with one stone). I haven't heard back from Scott so you guys should all PM him encouraging him to attend. The will of the people (if you will wink.gif).

Bye bye Orbit Shifters:

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Old 01-03-2014, 08:57 AM
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I think I ask this question before. But I don't remember. But will the 210's or 215's require a separate amp? Or a AVR will be enough? Just looking at my options.. And pricing on these speakers yet?
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:13 AM
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I think I ask this question before. But I don't remember. But will the 210's or 215's require a separate amp? Or a AVR will be enough? Just looking at my options.. And pricing on these speakers yet?

Unlike the current Noesis, the 210T and 215T will, among other things, require separates with a powerful amp. The only question is will my 1000wpc W4S amp be enough?

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Old 01-03-2014, 09:14 AM
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Hi Rob, I am in for the March 29 GTG! I'll be driving up from Santa Barbara. You may have mentioned it already, but will you be selling your three Noesis 212's or is that yet to be determined? I haven't made my JTR purchase yet, and would love to drive home with yours if they are for sale smile.gif.
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:17 AM
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price estimates are 215t = $3500 - $4000
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/pricing-on-the-215-6685067

210t a couple hundred more than 212ht = $ $2499 - $ 2699
http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/pricing-on-210-6686127

Chris

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Old 01-03-2014, 09:21 AM
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I can also bring a pair of Odyssey Kismet Extreme monobloc amps if we are interested in auditioning with different sources of amplification. I love these amps and have also owned W4S, so would be an interesting comparison. Additionally, these amps are a single-ended design which would be a good test for noise. They have been dead quiet from more than a few inches in my system with 96 dB sensitivity speakers.
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:33 AM
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Has anyone ended up with the matching Sherbourn processor to the 7350? Seems like a cheap way to get XLR's but loose Audussey. I have heard people saying the SQ has improved as well with it elsewhere.
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Has anyone ended up with the matching Sherbourn processor to the 7350? Seems like a cheap way to get XLR's but loose Audussey. I have heard people saying the SQ has improved as well with it elsewhere.
i use the 7020c4 which had xlr inputs I like the ability to tweak with the on screen gui while. Listening at same time. The xlr inputs are nice also. With premium mono price xlr they even lock into the unit on amp and pre pro

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Amps- Sherbourn PA7-350, two Behringer EP4000s
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Old 01-03-2014, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music? I have XT32 now and I'm not sure about it yet for music. For movies I think it's great, and I love what it does for smoothing the bass for music so I can go back to an 80hz crossover - however it boosts the highs. At first it is a very pleasing sound and going back and forth I thought I liked it better - but it gets tiresome after awhile and that's not good for someone that spends way too much time listening to music. It's not bright, more of a "tizzy" sound. For movies I love it. Dynamic EQ is great and the boosted highs don't bother me at all.

Here is what Audyssey does to the highs 1/12 smoothing:






I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.

Carp,

I struggled with this exact issue for a LOOOOONG time. After moving from one AVR to the next, to the next, only to do it one more time JUST to get xt32, I was pretty disheartened once I really started diving into my metal collection and realizing I prefer audyssey OFF for two channel. I am sure you listen to more music than I, but I give it my best to keep up with ya smile.gif Here is the same scenario in my room, You will see the top-end is boosted just as you are experiencing in your room. My feelings are the same as well, not bright, but tinny/tizzy, etc....




Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I pulled the Orbit Shifter's out of the HT room yesterday as they are going to their new home today. I did a quick Audyssey 3 position and set the Noesis 212's to full range and played some music and movie clips. It has been a long time since I have heard the system without subs and it was a shocking revelation. Restating a well know fact, these speakers must be used with a good subwoofer (or four). I don't know exactly when I became a bass guy, but I am definitely one now.

The 215T's have a pretty high bar to clear ...

This is sad news. I was hanging by a thread this whole week...
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Carp,

I struggled with this exact issue for a LOOOOONG time. After moving from one AVR to the next, to the next, only to do it one more time JUST to get xt32, I was pretty disheartened once I really started diving into my metal collection and realizing I prefer audyssey OFF for two channel. I am sure you listen to more music than I, but I give it my best to keep up with ya smile.gif Here is the same scenario in my room, You will see the top-end is boosted just as you are experiencing in your room. My feelings are the same as well, not bright, but tinny/tizzy, etc....







Without using Audyssey I am back to using a 150hz crossover so I can smooth that range of the bass. However what really sucks is I can't get curve with the Onkyo to look and sound just like it does with the Elite even when using the exact same minidsp eq settings and 150hz crossover.




1/6th smoothing. The red line is the Elite, the black line is the Onkyo. Both at 150hz crossover both with exact same EQ settings on the mini. Audyssee off, dynamic eq off, everything off.

My only guess is that the two receivers have different crossover slopes?

I know the differences don't look like much, but with the Elite's curve you get a nice punchy bass sound. With the Onkyo the bass either seems like too much or not enough as I adjust the sub trim up and down but I never get that same sound I like from the Elite.



This is crazy, but is there a way I could keep both receivers in the system at the same time? I would use the Onkyo for movies and have Audyssey on and dynamic EQ on and then for music use the Elite.

That would mean having 2 sets of speaker wires hooked up to the left and right mains at the same time. I could set up my Harmony 900 remote to turn off the Elite when I watch movies or tv and have the remote turn off the Onkyo when I listen to music.

Is this a horrible idea? I know it would be bad if both receivers were on at once, but if I made sure that could never happen would this be ok?
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Is that with Audyssey in music or movie mode? Regardless, it is a very nice FR considering AFAIR, you have few room treatments. I tend to leave Audyssey on but I don't listen to as much music as you guys do and like you, I think it and Dynamic EQ do some movie magic. My best music sessions have been with Audyssey off so I concur with your observations and graph. Thanks for posting ...cool.gif


This is movie mode, music looks similar just boosted a bit more above 10 khz.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

A bit of a shameless plug, I'm sorry, but your guys' observations about Audyssey are quite consistent with some design choices they made.


Thanks SS, very interesting thread.


If only Audyssey had the option of only correcting up to 300hz or so!
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post

I can also bring a pair of Odyssey Kismet Extreme monobloc amps if we are interested in auditioning with different sources of amplification. I love these amps and have also owned W4S, so would be an interesting comparison. Additionally, these amps are a single-ended design which would be a good test for noise. They have been dead quite in my system with 96 dB sensitivity speakers.

Nice to see another Odyssey amp user.I have a fully loaded Khartago amp that is dead silent on my 95 dB sensitive speakers. Would love to hear it pushing a pair of JTRs.

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Old 01-03-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Without using Audyssey I am back to using a 150hz crossover so I can smooth that range of the bass. However what really sucks is I can't get curve with the Onkyo to look and sound just like it does with the Elite even when using the exact same minidsp eq settings and 150hz crossover.




1/6th smoothing. The red line is the Elite, the black line is the Onkyo. Both at 150hz crossover both with exact same EQ settings on the mini. Audyssee off, dynamic eq off, everything off.

My only guess is that the two receivers have different crossover slopes?

I know the differences don't look like much, but with the Elite's curve you get a nice punchy bass sound. With the Onkyo the bass either seems like too much or not enough as I adjust the sub trim up and down but I never get that same sound I like from the Elite.



This is crazy, but is there a way I could keep both receivers in the system at the same time? I would use the Onkyo for movies and have Audyssey on and dynamic EQ on and then for music use the Elite.

That would mean having 2 sets of speaker wires hooked up to the left and right mains at the same time. I could set up my Harmony 900 remote to turn off the Elite when I watch movies or tv and have the remote turn off the Onkyo when I listen to music.

Is this a horrible idea? I know it would be bad if both receivers were on at once, but if I made sure that could never happen would this be ok?

Actually a 5dB difference in that critical range is important. Very Important. Carp, number one, the Denon and Marantz units have a "BYPASS L/R" setting in audyssey that basically keeps all other channels including the LFE channel EQ'd, but turns audyssey off on your left and right speakers. I have found this is my absolute favorite setting for music. It keeps the bass smoothed accordingly, but doesn't fudge with the mains so it is the best of both worlds.

Also, there is another member on the audyssey thread that is looping two AVR's together so he can use Trinnov for room EQ, whilst getting all the other benefits from his much higher-end main AVR. I don't know exactly how he managed to get that to work but I would assume using the preouts from one processor, into the other, then preouts from there to your amp/speaker.
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Old 01-03-2014, 10:38 AM
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Actually a 5dB difference in that critical range is important. Very Important. Carp, number one, the Denon and Marantz units have a "BYPASS L/R" setting in audyssey that basically keeps all other channels including the LFE channel EQ'd, but turns audyssey off on your left and right speakers. I have found this is my absolute favorite setting for music. It keeps the bass smoothed accordingly, but doesn't fudge with the mains so it is the best of both worlds.

Also, there is another member on the audyssey thread that is looping two AVR's together so he can use Trinnov for room EQ, whilst getting all the other benefits from his much higher-end main AVR. I don't know exactly how he managed to get that to work but I would assume using the preouts from one processor, into the other, then preouts from there to your amp/speaker.


Whoa! So you mean with the Marantz and Denon that setting will keep audyssey turned on in the subs and turned off in the LR speakers? What does that do to the crossover range?


Ok, so you are saying if I run 2 receivers I better use pre outs and separate amp? I assume this means that running 2 sets of speaker wires to the mains is a bad idea?
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:04 AM
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Whoa! So you mean with the Marantz and Denon that setting will keep audyssey turned on in the subs and turned off in the LR speakers? What does that do to the crossover range?


Ok, so you are saying if I run 2 receivers I better use pre outs and separate amp? I assume this means that running 2 sets of speaker wires to the mains is a bad idea?

Carp, I can confirm my Marantz pre/pro has the same setting Brandon is talking about. I confirmed that setting my looking in my owners manual.
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:11 AM
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I pulled the Orbit Shifter's out of the HT room yesterday as they are going to their new home today. I did a quick Audyssey 3 position and set the Noesis 212's to full range and played some music and movie clips. It has been a long time since I have heard the system without subs and it was a shocking revelation. Restating a well know fact, these speakers must be used with a good subwoofer (or four). I don't know exactly when I became a bass guy, but I am definitely one now.

The 215T's have a pretty high bar to clear ...

I have no doubt you will love the 215T...

However, $50 says you will end up adding subs back in the mix...

No LCR/Mains will ever satisfy your bass jones.

Take that to the bank!
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Old 01-03-2014, 11:31 AM
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Whoa! So you mean with the Marantz and Denon that setting will keep audyssey turned on in the subs and turned off in the LR speakers? What does that do to the crossover range?


Ok, so you are saying if I run 2 receivers I better use pre outs and separate amp? I assume this means that running 2 sets of speaker wires to the mains is a bad idea?

Yes, a worse idea than just daisy chaining the processors. IF you were to do it this way in your setup, I don't know what the response would look like, since that graph was the difference in the native responses of the two units, but you would take whichever unit you wanted to have be the "Fully funtional unit" with all the sources plugged into and the main remote you would use and make it the "primary" receiver. You would then use the pre-outs to run to the secondary or "slave" receiver that you would be using solely for the EQ software. From the slave you would then just go straight to your speakers, or an external amp if you had one. Make sense?

AFA the Denon's go, yes, that is exactly what I mean. What it does to the crossover range, for your specific room I can't answer, but odds are you would be able to find the best optimal sound from the situation you are describing, and could do it all with a single AVR smile.gif
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