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beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 10:48 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Good lord, I'm away for a day or so tinkering with a new receiver and there are close to 200 posts, haha.

Question for you guys. How many of you use Audyssey for music? I have XT32 now and I'm not sure about it yet for music. For movies I think it's great, and I love what it does for smoothing the bass for music so I can go back to an 80hz crossover - however it boosts the highs. At first it is a very pleasing sound and going back and forth I thought I liked it better - but it gets tiresome after awhile and that's not good for someone that spends way too much time listening to music. It's not bright, more of a "tizzy" sound. For movies I love it. Dynamic EQ is great and the boosted highs don't bother me at all.

Here is what Audyssey does to the highs 1/12 smoothing:






I don't get it, it's not like it's smoothing the response, just raising it from 2.5 khz and up. I don't understand the point of that....

Oh, btw, the graph is with dynamic EQ OFF.

Carp,

I struggled with this exact issue for a LOOOOONG time. After moving from one AVR to the next, to the next, only to do it one more time JUST to get xt32, I was pretty disheartened once I really started diving into my metal collection and realizing I prefer audyssey OFF for two channel. I am sure you listen to more music than I, but I give it my best to keep up with ya smile.gif Here is the same scenario in my room, You will see the top-end is boosted just as you are experiencing in your room. My feelings are the same as well, not bright, but tinny/tizzy, etc....




Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I pulled the Orbit Shifter's out of the HT room yesterday as they are going to their new home today. I did a quick Audyssey 3 position and set the Noesis 212's to full range and played some music and movie clips. It has been a long time since I have heard the system without subs and it was a shocking revelation. Restating a well know fact, these speakers must be used with a good subwoofer (or four). I don't know exactly when I became a bass guy, but I am definitely one now.

The 215T's have a pretty high bar to clear ...

This is sad news. I was hanging by a thread this whole week...

carp's Avatar carp 11:19 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Carp,

I struggled with this exact issue for a LOOOOONG time. After moving from one AVR to the next, to the next, only to do it one more time JUST to get xt32, I was pretty disheartened once I really started diving into my metal collection and realizing I prefer audyssey OFF for two channel. I am sure you listen to more music than I, but I give it my best to keep up with ya smile.gif Here is the same scenario in my room, You will see the top-end is boosted just as you are experiencing in your room. My feelings are the same as well, not bright, but tinny/tizzy, etc....







Without using Audyssey I am back to using a 150hz crossover so I can smooth that range of the bass. However what really sucks is I can't get curve with the Onkyo to look and sound just like it does with the Elite even when using the exact same minidsp eq settings and 150hz crossover.




1/6th smoothing. The red line is the Elite, the black line is the Onkyo. Both at 150hz crossover both with exact same EQ settings on the mini. Audyssee off, dynamic eq off, everything off.

My only guess is that the two receivers have different crossover slopes?

I know the differences don't look like much, but with the Elite's curve you get a nice punchy bass sound. With the Onkyo the bass either seems like too much or not enough as I adjust the sub trim up and down but I never get that same sound I like from the Elite.



This is crazy, but is there a way I could keep both receivers in the system at the same time? I would use the Onkyo for movies and have Audyssey on and dynamic EQ on and then for music use the Elite.

That would mean having 2 sets of speaker wires hooked up to the left and right mains at the same time. I could set up my Harmony 900 remote to turn off the Elite when I watch movies or tv and have the remote turn off the Onkyo when I listen to music.

Is this a horrible idea? I know it would be bad if both receivers were on at once, but if I made sure that could never happen would this be ok?
carp's Avatar carp 11:22 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Is that with Audyssey in music or movie mode? Regardless, it is a very nice FR considering AFAIR, you have few room treatments. I tend to leave Audyssey on but I don't listen to as much music as you guys do and like you, I think it and Dynamic EQ do some movie magic. My best music sessions have been with Audyssey off so I concur with your observations and graph. Thanks for posting ...cool.gif


This is movie mode, music looks similar just boosted a bit more above 10 khz.
carp's Avatar carp 11:24 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

A bit of a shameless plug, I'm sorry, but your guys' observations about Audyssey are quite consistent with some design choices they made.


Thanks SS, very interesting thread.


If only Audyssey had the option of only correcting up to 300hz or so!
NWCgrad's Avatar NWCgrad 11:28 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post

I can also bring a pair of Odyssey Kismet Extreme monobloc amps if we are interested in auditioning with different sources of amplification. I love these amps and have also owned W4S, so would be an interesting comparison. Additionally, these amps are a single-ended design which would be a good test for noise. They have been dead quite in my system with 96 dB sensitivity speakers.

Nice to see another Odyssey amp user.I have a fully loaded Khartago amp that is dead silent on my 95 dB sensitive speakers. Would love to hear it pushing a pair of JTRs.
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 11:33 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Without using Audyssey I am back to using a 150hz crossover so I can smooth that range of the bass. However what really sucks is I can't get curve with the Onkyo to look and sound just like it does with the Elite even when using the exact same minidsp eq settings and 150hz crossover.




1/6th smoothing. The red line is the Elite, the black line is the Onkyo. Both at 150hz crossover both with exact same EQ settings on the mini. Audyssee off, dynamic eq off, everything off.

My only guess is that the two receivers have different crossover slopes?

I know the differences don't look like much, but with the Elite's curve you get a nice punchy bass sound. With the Onkyo the bass either seems like too much or not enough as I adjust the sub trim up and down but I never get that same sound I like from the Elite.



This is crazy, but is there a way I could keep both receivers in the system at the same time? I would use the Onkyo for movies and have Audyssey on and dynamic EQ on and then for music use the Elite.

That would mean having 2 sets of speaker wires hooked up to the left and right mains at the same time. I could set up my Harmony 900 remote to turn off the Elite when I watch movies or tv and have the remote turn off the Onkyo when I listen to music.

Is this a horrible idea? I know it would be bad if both receivers were on at once, but if I made sure that could never happen would this be ok?

Actually a 5dB difference in that critical range is important. Very Important. Carp, number one, the Denon and Marantz units have a "BYPASS L/R" setting in audyssey that basically keeps all other channels including the LFE channel EQ'd, but turns audyssey off on your left and right speakers. I have found this is my absolute favorite setting for music. It keeps the bass smoothed accordingly, but doesn't fudge with the mains so it is the best of both worlds.

Also, there is another member on the audyssey thread that is looping two AVR's together so he can use Trinnov for room EQ, whilst getting all the other benefits from his much higher-end main AVR. I don't know exactly how he managed to get that to work but I would assume using the preouts from one processor, into the other, then preouts from there to your amp/speaker.
carp's Avatar carp 11:38 AM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Actually a 5dB difference in that critical range is important. Very Important. Carp, number one, the Denon and Marantz units have a "BYPASS L/R" setting in audyssey that basically keeps all other channels including the LFE channel EQ'd, but turns audyssey off on your left and right speakers. I have found this is my absolute favorite setting for music. It keeps the bass smoothed accordingly, but doesn't fudge with the mains so it is the best of both worlds.

Also, there is another member on the audyssey thread that is looping two AVR's together so he can use Trinnov for room EQ, whilst getting all the other benefits from his much higher-end main AVR. I don't know exactly how he managed to get that to work but I would assume using the preouts from one processor, into the other, then preouts from there to your amp/speaker.


Whoa! So you mean with the Marantz and Denon that setting will keep audyssey turned on in the subs and turned off in the LR speakers? What does that do to the crossover range?


Ok, so you are saying if I run 2 receivers I better use pre outs and separate amp? I assume this means that running 2 sets of speaker wires to the mains is a bad idea?
Frohlich's Avatar Frohlich 12:04 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Whoa! So you mean with the Marantz and Denon that setting will keep audyssey turned on in the subs and turned off in the LR speakers? What does that do to the crossover range?


Ok, so you are saying if I run 2 receivers I better use pre outs and separate amp? I assume this means that running 2 sets of speaker wires to the mains is a bad idea?

Carp, I can confirm my Marantz pre/pro has the same setting Brandon is talking about. I confirmed that setting my looking in my owners manual.
popalock's Avatar popalock 12:11 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I pulled the Orbit Shifter's out of the HT room yesterday as they are going to their new home today. I did a quick Audyssey 3 position and set the Noesis 212's to full range and played some music and movie clips. It has been a long time since I have heard the system without subs and it was a shocking revelation. Restating a well know fact, these speakers must be used with a good subwoofer (or four). I don't know exactly when I became a bass guy, but I am definitely one now.

The 215T's have a pretty high bar to clear ...

I have no doubt you will love the 215T...

However, $50 says you will end up adding subs back in the mix...

No LCR/Mains will ever satisfy your bass jones.

Take that to the bank!
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 12:31 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Whoa! So you mean with the Marantz and Denon that setting will keep audyssey turned on in the subs and turned off in the LR speakers? What does that do to the crossover range?


Ok, so you are saying if I run 2 receivers I better use pre outs and separate amp? I assume this means that running 2 sets of speaker wires to the mains is a bad idea?

Yes, a worse idea than just daisy chaining the processors. IF you were to do it this way in your setup, I don't know what the response would look like, since that graph was the difference in the native responses of the two units, but you would take whichever unit you wanted to have be the "Fully funtional unit" with all the sources plugged into and the main remote you would use and make it the "primary" receiver. You would then use the pre-outs to run to the secondary or "slave" receiver that you would be using solely for the EQ software. From the slave you would then just go straight to your speakers, or an external amp if you had one. Make sense?

AFA the Denon's go, yes, that is exactly what I mean. What it does to the crossover range, for your specific room I can't answer, but odds are you would be able to find the best optimal sound from the situation you are describing, and could do it all with a single AVR smile.gif
Frohlich's Avatar Frohlich 12:54 PM 01-03-2014
Just to post a quick update since a few people sent me a PM earlier when I mentioned Jeff was building me a custom center with a 228 body/woofers and 212 compression driver. Just talked to Jeff after I gave him a few days to make sure he could make everything work and he confirmed he could. This is "custom" work so if anybody wants something similar, it would be priced accordingly. Unless of course he sees enough demand to make it a regular offering at some point smile.gif
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 12:54 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I have no doubt you will love the 215T...

However, $50 says you will end up adding subs back in the mix...

No LCR/Mains will ever satisfy your bass jones.

Take that to the bank!

I think worse case scenario is RMK picks up a Cap S2 or two to pick up the really low end stuff below what the 215T's will be capable of.
carp's Avatar carp 01:00 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Yes, a worse idea than just daisy chaining the processors. IF you were to do it this way in your setup, I don't know what the response would look like, since that graph was the difference in the native responses of the two units, but you would take whichever unit you wanted to have be the "Fully funtional unit" with all the sources plugged into and the main remote you would use and make it the "primary" receiver. You would then use the pre-outs to run to the secondary or "slave" receiver that you would be using solely for the EQ software. From the slave you would then just go straight to your speakers, or an external amp if you had one. Make sense?

Let me make sure.

So, you mean have all my sources plugged into my Pioneer (no Audyssey) and then run pre-outs to the Onkyo (has Audyssey) and then connect Onkyo to all the speakers and then turn on and off Audyssey on the Onkyo depending on music and movies?

Looking on the back of the Onkyo it has "pre outs" but shouldn't it also say "main in" if it can be used in this way?
coolgeek's Avatar coolgeek 01:22 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post

A bit of a shameless plug, I'm sorry, but your guys' observations about Audyssey are quite consistent with some design choices they made.

Thanks for the 'shameless plug' as it was truly informative. I was under the impression that I am the only one who had problems with Audyssey.

I like this part,
Quote:
Audyssey's house curve does appear to take this into consideration somewhat, but as far as I'm aware this is only with high frequencies. If the rest of the in-room response is equalized flat then there will be a decrease in amplitude of direct sound as frequency decreases, making the speaker sound thin or even bright.

This was exactly what happened to my speakers. They indeed sounded very thin, sharp, and even painful to my ears. It felt like torture, especially with ultra sensitive speakers with a powerful compression driver like the 212s which can indeed play very loud at all frequency ranges, and if you boost the highs, they can cut you to pieces...
popalock's Avatar popalock 01:38 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I think worse case scenario is RMK picks up a Cap S2 or two to pick up the really low end stuff below what the 215T's will be capable of.

Totally disagree. Rob has made it abundantly clear that he if has the urge for sub 20Hz content that he simply rolls down the window of his car for a few seconds at speed to get his fill. Just enough to realize he has no love for the nauseating effects of infrasound.

tongue.gif
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 01:40 PM 01-03-2014
Yea, that's the part I am not positive on how he did it. Or if he used analog in's or whatever.
NWCgrad's Avatar NWCgrad 03:05 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Let me make sure.

So, you mean have all my sources plugged into my Pioneer (no Audyssey) and then run pre-outs to the Onkyo (has Audyssey) and then connect Onkyo to all the speakers and then turn on and off Audyssey on the Onkyo depending on music and movies?

Looking on the back of the Onkyo it has "pre outs" but shouldn't it also say "main in" if it can be used in this way?

Seems like you could run the preamp outputs of receiver #1 into the 7.x input of reciever #2. Have one set for HT (I assume the XT32) and the second for music. I "think" it could work without extensive rewiring. Would have to turn off processing of the reciever not being used.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 04:20 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Totally disagree. Rob has made it abundantly clear that he if has the urge for sub 20Hz content that he simply rolls down the window of his car for a few seconds at speed to get his fill. Just enough to realize he has no love for the nauseating effects of infrasound.

tongue.gif

You my friend are a good listener.
carp's Avatar carp 04:57 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Totally disagree. Rob has made it abundantly clear that he if has the urge for sub 20Hz content that he simply rolls down the window of his car for a few seconds at speed to get his fill. Just enough to realize he has no love for the nauseating effects of infrasound.

tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Yea, that's the part I am not positive on how he did it. Or if he used analog in's or whatever.



I tried connecting the Pioneer's pre outs into the pre outs of the Onkyo and the result was you could hear the music on every input of the Onkyo but at a very low volume. I then tried connecting the Pioneers preouts into the analog input that I'm on with the Onkyo. With the Pioneer volume all the way up (+12) I get a volume simlar (I think I'll have to check it later) to what I would get using just the Onkyo.

Now, I think this is backwards. I have to send a full range signal from the Pioneer (set to no sub) to get bass output from the subs when using the Onkyo. So, that must mean I'm using the crossover in the Onkyo.

I'll flip it and see if it works.


This is probably really dumb but who cares, I like messing with stuff. smile.gif
carp's Avatar carp 05:55 PM 01-03-2014
Ok, so the volume is identical with using both receivers or just using one, as long as the first receiver has the volume all the way up.

Another positive is that the speaker delay settings from my Pioneer are carrying over to the Onkyo. The Pioneer has .5 inch increments on the delay for each speaker, the Onkyo had 6 friggin inch increments so it's worthless for tweaking the soundstage - so, already found a positive for this setup.

With the Onkyo Brian Johnson is a little left of center, with the Pioneer (and the way I have it setup now) his voice is dead center. Nice.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 06:20 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I think worse case scenario is RMK picks up a Cap S2 or two to pick up the really low end stuff below what the 215T's will be capable of.

If there ever is another sub added, I'm going straight to the bottom with a TRW-17 ... then all you infrasonics dudes can eat my dust ... tongue.gif
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 06:44 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjbuoni View Post

Hi Rob, I am in for the March 29 GTG! I'll be driving up from Santa Barbara. You may have mentioned it already, but will you be selling your three Noesis 212's or is that yet to be determined? I haven't made my JTR purchase yet, and would love to drive home with yours if they are for sale smile.gif.

Hi Matt, your spot is reserved.

Re the Noesis, hold that thought. smile.gif
Gunner969's Avatar Gunner969 09:43 PM 01-03-2014
Soooo.... I got the 212 LCRs and the S2 today. After lugging the suckers to the HT room I connected the 212s and tried 10 minutes of Pacific Rim and 10 minutes of Transformers, and wow! They sounds simply amazing, and this is without a sub. Optimus Prime never sounded this good. Even my wife was in awe and actually said: "you did well this time". Trust me, that's high praise. biggrin.gif:D

I do have a couple of questions:

1. I've got the center sitting horizontally. Should I be doing something with the horn?
2. Can someone please explain what the various knobs/buttons on the S2 do? Some of them are obvious (power, volume smile.gif ).

btw, the binding posts on the speakers make me wish I had use 2 gauge wire.
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 10:05 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post

1. I've got the center sitting horizontally. Should I be doing something with the horn?

That's fine, just make sure the CD orientation is the right way.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 10:21 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post

Soooo.... I got the 212 LCRs and the S2 today. After lugging the suckers to the HT room I connected the 212s and tried 10 minutes of Pacific Rim and 10 minutes of Transformers, and wow! They sounds simply amazing, and this is without a sub. Optimus Prime never sounded this good. Even my wife was in awe and actually said: "you did well this time". Trust me, that's high praise. biggrin.gif:D

I do have a couple of questions:

1. I've got the center sitting horizontally. Should I be doing something with the horn?
2. Can someone please explain what the various knobs/buttons on the S2 do? Some of them are obvious (power, volume smile.gif ).

btw, the binding posts on the speakers make me wish I had use 2 gauge wire.

Congrats Gunner, glad they are working for you. cool.gif

1. The horn should be rotated, just take out the bolts (not too much down pressure as there are T-nuts on the other side of the wood) and carefully (mind the speaker connection wires) rotate the horn 90°. It is a 60/40 horn and you want the 60° on the horizontal plane.

2. Check this page out ...

Yeah, the binding posts are biggins. smile.gif
mjbuoni's Avatar mjbuoni 10:56 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Hi Matt, your spot is reserved.

Re the Noesis, hold that thought. smile.gif

!!! Can't wait biggrin.gif !!!
rhed's Avatar rhed 11:12 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Unlike the current Noesis, the 210T and 215T will, among other things, require separates with a powerful amp. The only question is will my 1000wpc W4S amp be enough?

Nice choice of amps RMK. I was once in the market for amps and Wyred4sound was one of the amps I had my eye on 3 SX-1000 monoblocks. Instead I went on a sub journey. These are the options im looking at..
1. LCR+surround upgrade: 212 for LCR and 4 single or slanted 8's for surrounds. The thing is I don't know about upgrading the surrounds yet. Just for surround duty.
2. LCR upgrade only with good amps: 210 LR and 212 center
3. LCR uprade only with subs: 212 LCR with pair of S1's or 2 more S2's if price is right as a package. btw, don't ask me why I want more subs. This whole ULF thing is addicting! besides I need a stand for the 212's.biggrin.gif
4. LCR upgrade with good amps: 215 LR and 212 center. But I don't know yet..
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 11:26 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post

Nice choice of amps RMK. I was once in the market for amps and Wyred4sound was one of the amps I had my eye on 3 SX-1000 monoblocks. Instead I went on a sub journey. These are the options im looking at..
1. LCR+surround upgrade: 212 for LCR and 4 single or slanted 8's for surrounds. The thing is I don't know about upgrading the surrounds yet. Just for surround duty.
2. LCR upgrade only with good amps: 210 LR and 212 center
3. LCR uprade only with subs: 212 LCR with pair of S1's or 2 more S2's if price is right as a package. btw, don't ask me why I want more subs. This whole ULF thing is addicting! besides I need a stand for the 212's.biggrin.gif
4. LCR upgrade with good amps: 215 LR and 212 center. But I don't know yet..

Honestly rhed with the subs you already have option #1 looks the best too me. I can't see why you'd really need to go with 210T's or the 215T's with the subs you're running.
dgage's Avatar dgage 11:30 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Has anyone ended up with the matching Sherbourn processor to the 7350? Seems like a cheap way to get XLR's but loose Audussey. I have heard people saying the SQ has improved as well with it elsewhere.

I have the Sherbourn 7030 preamp and I like it so far. Then again, I really haven't used the Parametric EQ yet. I just did +8 on the sub outputs and enjoyed several movies with the family. Once I finish the room later this month, I'll break out the MiniDSP UMIK-1 and start working with REW.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 11:46 PM 01-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhed View Post

Nice choice of amps RMK. I was once in the market for amps and Wyred4sound was one of the amps I had my eye on 3 SX-1000 monoblocks. Instead I went on a sub journey. These are the options im looking at..
1. LCR+surround upgrade: 212 for LCR and 4 single or slanted 8's for surrounds. The thing is I don't know about upgrading the surrounds yet. Just for surround duty.
2. LCR upgrade only with good amps: 210 LR and 212 center
3. LCR uprade only with subs: 212 LCR with pair of S1's or 2 more S2's if price is right as a package. btw, don't ask me why I want more subs. This whole ULF thing is addicting! besides I need a stand for the 212's.biggrin.gif
4. LCR upgrade with good amps: 215 LR and 212 center. But I don't know yet..

Yes, the W4S amps are nice.

All are nice options but being more of a ready, fire, aim sort of guy, 2 and 4 look really good. smile.gif
Tags: 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
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