Official JTR speaker thread - Page 508 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15211 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

my 212hts are 38" tall as opposed to 40"

Horn Top, supposedly same crossover as a regular 212ht./

Well since the mid-high frequencies are essentially a sealed uniit only the woofers would be impacted by the 2" reductioon in cabinet size and logically, that would only impact low frequency extension a bit. That crossover (speakers/subs) would be handled by your proceessor AVR ... no?

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post #15212 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

When I was talking with Jeff about the 215's (never more than a 3 minute conversation as neither of us has the time to gab) he mentioned that he had been working on the crossover for a custom center channel (I'm guessing your's smile.gif) for three weeks and it was "just about right". The guy is a perfectionist and the prices do not reflect all that effort. If he really enjoyed talking audio theory with people, and was always on the Forums posting his opinions, and on the phone for hours discussing the specific details of someones HT, then he wouldn't have as much time to design, test and build his products. That is a trade off I am more than willing to accept.

Jeff sent an email this week acknowledging receipt of my payment and with the following details. Just the kind of concise communication I prefer wink.gif :

I know it's work to do the custom center, I was frustrated with the lack of communication about my grill I needed, more than the actual timeline of getting it, although you don't seem to ever let me forget that fact that everything takes time. Believe me, I do get it, we all do.
He's been giving me regular updates since he sent me an email about it. I appreciate that a lot. It's restored my confidence in his willingness to keep me in the loop about my multi thousand dollar speaker.

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post #15213 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Well since the mid-high frequencies are essentially a sealed uniit only the woofers would be impacted by the 2" reductioon in cabinet size and logically, that would only impact low frequency extension a bit. That crossover (speakers/subs) would be handled by your proceessor AVR ... no?

That i'm no expert on, Just that i figured everyone was getting custom crossovers, that i point out that mine was built with a regular crossover.

I was told by other parties that there should be a difference when woofers are stacked vs MTM, but then again, if it can pass muster at JTR, i'm sure that it has run its course and Jeff found it to be ok.
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post #15214 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 10:13 AM
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I am definitely looking forward to the first impressions on the 215's.

My 212's aren't going anywhere anytime soon... wink.gif
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post #15215 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I have no money, all I have is speakers/subs.... oh, I see what you are up to... tongue.gif

Hee hee....don't forget to throw in the Crowson transducers.

Still thinking of the JTRs, they really sounded great. Too many other items to buy before I start thinking about new mains.

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post #15216 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 11:07 AM
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well Jeff had run into some unexpected with installing the driver/crossover upgrade kits on my set of 2008 Triple 8's. He couldn't find anywhere to mount the crossover board he said so he had to order some different boards to get it to work/fit. Something that can be valuable info for another trying to do the same. I almost had him just send me the kits but opted for him to do it.

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post #15217 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Sounds awesome Rob. I am sure you can't wait to get your new toys. I have had the same experience with Jeff....not a gabber on the phone.smile.gif

If I was running JTR people would get their speakers a lot quicker but my return and warranty work would also probably be humming...I prefer Jeff's approach tongue.gif

Yeah but I bet you would sell more speakers ...

I am really anxious to hear them and see how a big full range speaker like that will sound. My only point of reference are very expensive kit like Revel Salons , B&W 800s, Wilson Alexandrias and Focal Utopias. Although they are way past absurd cost wise, they sounded fantastic.

Of course, my Revel Ultima Studios and JL Fathom subs and, my Noesis 212's and Orbit Shifters sounded fantastic too. So why am I doing this ... confused.gifeek.giftongue.gif

Oh yeah, I forgot this is my hobby and it is fun ... smile.gif

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post #15218 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 12:51 PM
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I wonder how low of a frequency could be achieved if two 12's were used in the 210t instead of two 10's? 72" tall for the 215 is just too large for those of us without a separate home theater room and an f3 in the upper 30's for the 210t just doesn't quite cut it for me. But a 45" tall TMM design with two 12's that could reach into the low-mid twenties would be great.
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post #15219 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 12:53 PM
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RMK did I read several post ago where you sold your main spks & getting the new full range JTR,if so what are you using for spks? Sorry for being so nosy but I like your HT & was wondering if full range would be a good thing without subs,but yrs ago I used spks without subs! One more question what kind of cd does my 2009 triple 12 have? thanks
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post #15220 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Yeah but I bet you would sell more speakers ...

I am really anxious to hear them and see how a big full range speaker like that will sound. My only point of reference are very expensive kit like Revel Salons , B&W 800s, Wilson Alexandrias and Focal Utopias. Although they are way past absurd cost wise, they sounded fantastic.

Of course, my Revel Ultima Studios and JL Fathom subs and, my Noesis 212's and Orbit Shifters sounded fantastic too. So why am I doing this ... confused.gifeek.giftongue.gif

Oh yeah, I forgot this is my hobby and it is fun ... smile.gif

I was ordering the 215, but then figured I'll let others figure out the 18hz-20kz puzzle first. Plus, I just couldn't wait 3 months without loudspeakers. My expectations are the 215 reviews will be outstanding and I may be selling 2 month old 212s...Not too shabby as holdovers if the bug bites me again wink.gif

Only reservation is having to invest in amps with the 215 and other processor to get the lfe right. Will have to weigh all factors when we get to that bridge.
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post #15221 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I was ordering the 215, but then figured I'll let others figure out the 18hz-20kz puzzle first. Plus, I just couldn't wait 3 months without loudspeakers. My expectations are the 215 reviews will be outstanding and I may be selling 2 month old 212s...Not too shabby as holdovers if the bug bites me again wink.gif

I am/was in a similar situation. The 215s are a little big for my room but was considering making them work somehow. Then I talked to Jeff and he told me that above 80HZ they should sound just about identical to the 212s. I have two JTR subs to cover below 80HZ so I think for my sitution, the 212s were the right solution so that is what I ended up ordering. I still can't wait to hear first impression of the 215, shiny new toys are always fun.
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post #15222 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I am/was in a similar situation. The 215s are a little big for my room but was considering making them work somehow. Then I talked to Jeff and he told me that above 80HZ they should sound just about identical to the 212s. I have two JTR subs to cover below 80HZ so I think for my sitution, the 212s were the right solution so that is what I ended up ordering. I still can't wait to hear first impression of the 215, shiny new toys are always fun.

Exact thing he told me. Plus, by not having to spend on amps etc, I was able to justify trying two very reputable subs for now.
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post #15223 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I am/was in a similar situation. The 215s are a little big for my room but was considering making them work somehow. Then I talked to Jeff and he told me that above 80HZ they should sound just about identical to the 212s. I have two JTR subs to cover below 80HZ so I think for my sitution, the 212s were the right solution so that is what I ended up ordering. I still can't wait to hear first impression of the 215, shiny new toys are always fun.
1
Thats echo's what I heard. Although, I'm interested in what they will do under 80hz in 2 channel! I would think they should have a bunch more midbass than the 212's though, in any case, I should be able to retire my 2242H's as mid bass modules..... HOPEFULLY haha tongue.gif

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post #15224 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

1
Thats echo's what I heard. Although, I'm interested in what they will do under 80hz in 2 channel! I would think they should have a bunch more midbass than the 212's though, in any case, I should be able to retire my 2242H's as mid bass modules..... HOPEFULLY haha tongue.gif


Without EQ I bet they would sound just like the 212's in the mid bass region (80-200 hz or whatever is agreed to be mid-bass). Crank up the bass tone control or EQ and it would of course be a different story.

That's the other thing. With subs it's easy to just adjust the trim up or down on the receiver, but with full range mains no subs I assume this will be much more complicated?
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post #15225 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

1
Thats echo's what I heard. Although, I'm interested in what they will do under 80hz in 2 channel! I would think they should have a bunch more midbass than the 212's though, in any case, I should be able to retire my 2242H's as mid bass modules..... HOPEFULLY haha tongue.gif

Where do you live? Might need to make a road trip when you get them. cool.gif
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post #15226 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by dholmes54 View Post

RMK did I read several post ago where you sold your main spks & getting the new full range JTR,if so what are you using for spks? Sorry for being so nosy but I like your HT & was wondering if full range would be a good thing without subs,but yrs ago I used spks without subs! One more question what kind of cd does my 2009 triple 12 have? thanks

I have a little 3 channel setup with the T8LP's as mains and a Slanted 8 as center (no subs eek.gif) and it sounds pretty good. smile.gif
I think you might be one CD/Xover from the current model. Not worth an upgrade (IMHO).
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Without EQ I bet they would sound just like the 212's in the mid bass region (80-200 hz or whatever is agreed to be mid-bass). Crank up the bass tone control or EQ and it would of course be a different story.

That's the other thing. With subs it's easy to just adjust the trim up or down on the receiver, but with full range mains no subs I assume this will be much more complicated?

I will be able to do trim adjustment with my Integra and I have a variety of options to EQ the LFE channel with the Rane as it is down stream of the Integra. The major concern I have is speaker position ... we all know that good bass is all about location.

Re it sounding like the Noesis 212, I would think it will be very close with the new 12" wood horn with a lower xover and different dispersion being the variables. SInce the 15" woofers will be handling frequencies up to 300hz I think I might see some improvement in midbass but only time will tell ... smile.gif

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post #15227 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I have a little 3 channel setup with the T8LP's as mains and a Slanted 8 as center (no subs eek.gif) and it sounds pretty good. smile.gif
I think you might be one CD/Xover from the current model. Not worth an upgrade (IMHO).
I will be able to do trim adjustment with my Integra and I have a variety of options to EQ the LFE channel with the Rane as it is down stream of the Integra. The major concern I have is speaker position ... we all know that good bass is all about location.

Re it sounding like the Noesis 212, I would think it will be very close with the new 12" wood horn with a lower xover and different dispersion being the variables. SInce the 15" woofers will be handling frequencies up to 300hz I think I might see some improvement in midbass but only time will tell ... smile.gif


Archaea and I were talking about you with Mark Seaton last weekend. See how I just name dropped right there.... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

That was one of the topics, speaker location/bass. If I remember right you put your 212's right on top of the subs so it would be roughly the same location for the 215's as you had the OS's right? All should be fine? Now, maybe horns work differently than ported subs when it comes to location? I don't think so though...
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post #15228 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

That i'm no expert on, Just that i figured everyone was getting custom crossovers, that i point out that mine was built with a regular crossover.

I was told by other parties that there should be a difference when woofers are stacked vs MTM, but then again, if it can pass muster at JTR, i'm sure that it has run its course and Jeff found it to be ok.
The regular XO is a custom XO. Jeff designs (custom) and builds all his XOs with no outside help. What most are calling custom are actually reworked versions of the XOs he has already designed.

There is no XO in the JTR line up that Jeff did not custom design/build. smile.gif

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post #15229 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Slinkee View Post

I wonder how low of a frequency could be achieved if two 12's were used in the 210t instead of two 10's? 72" tall for the 215 is just too large for those of us without a separate home theater room and an f3 in the upper 30's for the 210t just doesn't quite cut it for me. But a 45" tall TMM design with two 12's that could reach into the low-mid twenties would be great.
The 10" and 15" woofers Jeff will be using in the FR speakers are a completely different design then the 8" and 12" woofers in the 228 and 212. In order for the above situation to work he would have to

have another 12" woofer designed along with a different cabinet and XO. It would be a completely different speaker that would not offer much over the 210t.

In order to dig deeper the cabinet would have to bigger so throwing 12" woofers in the same size cabinet as the 210t will not dig much lower at all. Surely not an f3 in the 20's. smile.gif
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post #15230 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 02:45 PM
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thx RMK!
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post #15231 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Without EQ I bet they would sound just like the 212's in the mid bass region (80-200 hz or whatever is agreed to be mid-bass). Crank up the bass tone control or EQ and it would of course be a different story.

That's the other thing. With subs it's easy to just adjust the trim up or down on the receiver, but with full range mains no subs I assume this will be much more complicated?

They "should" have more midbass just based on displacement, well in my case they will 100%, since I have the LP 212's. I will have complete control over them with how I'm going to implement them. I have an extra OpenDRC that I will be running them through before the amp. No need for anything else, I can adjust on the fly if I want and save my 4 setting for how I want them implemented. Easy as pie and setup in about 2 minutes cool.gif

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post #15232 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


The 10" and 15" woofers Jeff will be using in the FR speakers are a completely different design then the 8" and 12" woofers in the 228 and 212. In order for the above situation to work he would have to

have another 12" woofer designed along with a different cabinet and XO. It would be a completely different speaker that would not offer much over the 210t.

In order to dig deeper the cabinet would have to bigger so throwing 12" woofers in the same size cabinet as the 210t will not dig much lower at all. Surely not an f3 in the 20's. smile.gif
Chris

When I asked Jeff on the JTR forum board why he went with 10's over 12's his exact response was.....

"Jbrown, I started with the 210, trying to keep the tower narrow and then the 215 came up when trying to go lower. The 215 works out better than a few 12's and I like the look of the drivers coming almost to the edge of the cabinet."
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post #15233 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

When I asked Jeff on the JTR forum board why he went with 10's over 12's his exact response was.....

"Jbrown, I started with the 210, trying to keep the tower narrow and then the 215 came up when trying to go lower. The 215 works out better than a few 12's and I like the look of the drivers coming almost to the edge of the cabinet."
What that's saying is that a cabinet big enough to get an f3 in mid to low 20s would be so big that 12' woofers would not go all the way to the edge so if the cabinet has to be that big why not just use 15' woofers since they will fit and go all the way to the edge which looks Badass. smile.gif

I think the post I was responding to thought that simply trading the 10" woofers for 12s in the same 45" cabinet would net a f3 in the 20s. Those low frequencies are a combination of bigger drivers and cabinets.

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post #15234 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Archaea and I were talking about you with Mark Seaton last weekend. See how I just name dropped right there.... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

That was one of the topics, speaker location/bass. If I remember right you put your 212's right on top of the subs so it would be roughly the same location for the 215's as you had the OS's right? All should be fine? Now, maybe horns work differently than ported subs when it comes to location? I don't think so though...

Thanks Carp, I am still bummed that I couldn't make the GTG. I was really looking forward to meeting all of the guys and hearing some great speakers. Mark is such a good guy and wicked smart in all things audio so it is always a pleasure to talk sound with him.

You are correct about the Noesis sitting on top of the OS's and I'm hopeful that the 215T's will perform well in a similar location.

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post #15235 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

When I asked Jeff on the JTR forum board why he went with 10's over 12's his exact response was.....

"Jbrown, I started with the 210, trying to keep the tower narrow and then the 215 came up when trying to go lower. The 215 works out better than a few 12's and I like the look of the drivers coming almost to the edge of the cabinet."



Since my prior question results in a completely custom built speaker. Could the 215t be built into a smaller cabinet sacrificing the low end of 18 and raising it to the low-mid twenties?
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post #15236 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Slinkee View Post

Since my prior question results in a completely custom built speaker. Could the 215t be built into a smaller cabinet sacrificing the low end of 18 and raising it to the low-mid twenties?

At that point, I'd think you're getting pretty close to the 210t.
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post #15237 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Archaea and I were talking about you with Mark Seaton last weekend. See how I just name dropped right there.... tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

That was one of the topics, speaker location/bass. If I remember right you put your 212's right on top of the subs so it would be roughly the same location for the 215's as you had the OS's right? All should be fine? Now, maybe horns work differently than ported subs when it comes to location? I don't think so though...

Bass is bass and our walls and room dimensions creating the measurable nulls and peaks distances in the room don't know if we have sealed, horn or ported subs. Symmetrical rectangular rooms are pretty easy to calculate where our nulls are at the given frequency but if I remember right RMK has a not exact rectangle from old pics. But He is surely familiar with his room smile.gif I rotated my setup 90 degrees in my living room to get symmetrical then my raw response improved dramatically.

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post #15238 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

They "should" have more midbass just based on displacement, well in my case they will 100%, since I have the LP 212's. I will have complete control over them with how I'm going to implement them. I have an extra OpenDRC that I will be running them through before the amp. No need for anything else, I can adjust on the fly if I want and save my 4 setting for how I want them implemented. Easy as pie and setup in about 2 minutes cool.gif

I have really enjoyed my OpenDRC and that was a buy I surely would do over. Being thats its inexpensive helps too:rolleyes:

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post #15239 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Omnimic looks jagged if on no smoothing and just single capture, just like REW, but when you average captures on omnimic, like most everyone does, the effect of smoothing occurs.
Average captures? Do you mean you are taking measurements in multiple LP's and then averaging these results? That would explain it then as I only take measurements from the MLP.

Doesn't this skew peoples perceptions on other peoples measurements though? I mean, if averaging results in a smoother response curve then someone looking to show off would just take multiple readings and average them right? I know it's not a competition or anything, but it does hurt people that don't know others are practicing this because these people that don't know are always left wondering why their graphs are so jagged compared to others.
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post #15240 of 35608 Old 01-25-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Omnimic looks jagged if on no smoothing and just single capture, just like REW, but when you average captures on omnimic, like most everyone does, the effect of smoothing occurs.
Average captures? Do you mean you are taking measurements in multiple LP's and then averaging these results? That would explain it then as I only take measurements from the MLP.

Doesn't this skew peoples perceptions on other peoples measurements though? I mean, if averaging results in a smoother response curve then someone looking to show off would just take multiple readings and average them right? I know it's not a competition or anything, but it does hurt people that don't know others are practicing this because these people that don't know are always left wondering why their graphs are so jagged compared to others.

No - the mic stays in one position. You just average x 'captures' of that postion to ensure the capture is accurate - so if the floor creaks, the cat meows, whatever - it's still overall accurate. The averaging effect is slight smoothing, nothing drastic.

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