Official JTR speaker thread - Page 526 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15751 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 04:02 PM
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post #15752 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 04:38 PM
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If this is the way to do it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

When you use the internal test tones after running Audyssey, the Audyssey filters are not engaged. (Watch the front panel of your receiver when you turn the test tones on... the "Audyssey" logo turns off.) Therefore , when you reset the levels based on the internal test tones, and then reengage Audyssey afterwards, you are no longer properly calibrated. If you want to reset or check the levels after running Audyssey, you should use *external* test tones, like a test disc, and then run them through the Audyssey filters.
Turning up the subwoofer trim is fine, but I don't suggest resetting the speaker levels for the above reason.

Craig

then how is this possible? I am just confused??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

'Book of Eli blew my head off at -20 - no other system has ever done that...'


Hahaha - Cause you aren't at -20dB.

-20dB is only -20dB if Audyssey puts your test tones on the AVR at 75dB.

I'd wager you're probably actually around oh say - 5 when you are thinking you are -20.

tongue.gif

-12 is the minimum trim Audyssey can do, so seeing that all your channel trims are at -12 means Audyssey threw up its hands and told you good luck - I can't help you. You really have no clue what SPL levels you are listening to anything at without having an SPL meter or Omnimic and manually setting all channels to the same dB setting. Nate and Brandon are saying to use 85dB as your new dB match point for all channel trims because the speakers are so efficient you CAN'T get to 75dB, so you won't be able to use 0 as reference. If you manually match all your channel trims to 85dB instead then you can use -10 as the same 'reference' volume that everyone else would say is reference = 0 on their system. To make this work you get out your SPL meter and make each speaker and sub hit 85 dB by adjusting channel trims individual on each channel's AVR test tone.

If you don't do this then the AVR's 0 reference volume mean absolutely nothing relative to anyone else's gear. That is the point of a 'reference' after all! tongue.gif


If this doesn't make sense get Austin back over there to square you up, or call me sometime and I'll walk you through it.

I have a feeling your bass is probably like 35 dB hot, and your channel levels may be all over the map. biggrin.gif

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post #15753 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga99 View Post

Yep....and few other respected members such as Mark Seaton, Craig John, FilmMixer.

I've tried 120hz and 80hz on the LFE channel and in my room it sounds better with it set at 80hz. YMMV

LINK

Agree with that all I do, but you gotta think, if Filmixer and the likes of him are already filtering out above 80hz, by the time that mix gets to the end-user, there already isn't much above to worry about, so the reason to knock it down is that much less important. I will try and experiment with it when I get around to measuring more tonight.

A quick jump in here... Point missed.

Lowering the .1 (LFE) channel low pass (not tied to speaker crossover) becomes less an issue when running subs at perfectly matched levels with mains. As you raise the subwoofer level above a neutral balance, shading/tilting down the upper end makes more and more sense.

Look at the graphic from Craig John's post again:


For a moment forget the roll off an just look at the *difference* between the green & orange curves. The two curves are parallel above the blue line (120Hz), and they converge near 40Hz. Between there is a smooth tapering which makes for a shelf filter. In the case of this 8th order filter, the maximum cut of the shelf is about 8dB as seen between the two curves at 120Hz, with about 4dB of cut around 80Hz. A 100Hz setting makes for about 1/2 those cut values on a similar shape shelf filter.

In many cases, this helps allow for the amped up bass setting while better tapering and transitioning back to the main speakers.

As I and others have posted, this is simply a matter of final "seasoning to taste" in the same manner we might give a modest or aggressive rise to the subwoofer response itself.
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post #15754 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

If this is the way to do it...
then how is this possible? I am just confused??
Jonathan is addressing the fact that JTR speakers are so sensitive that some Audyssey-based systems don't have enough trim range to get JTR speakers within the window of their range. To calibrate JTR speakers in those systems, you need to use test tones and an SPL meter. The setting of the MVC for "Reference Level" will be incorrect, but at least you'll be calibrated for levels for the speakers and sub(s). The key difference is that I recommend using external test tones, like a test tone disc, to reset the levels instead of the internal test tones of the receiver.

Another way to deal with the problem Jonathan is addressing is to use attenuators. These lower the signal levels before the amplifiers and allow Audyssey to properly set the trims. This was discussed in the Audyssey thread:
http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-XATT10-In-Line-Attenuator/dp/B0024TDIN6

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post #15755 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 05:13 PM
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got my veneered order in, have yet to unbox the S2's but was a bit disappointed with my Veneered Slanted 8HTS, painted black in the back instead of veneered, I'm ceiling mounting these, and in my room, means 3 of them will have their backs visible. Guess its something i have to live with.
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post #15756 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 05:20 PM
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Jeff just e-mailed me my tracking numbers = he is real and alive and doing something. I was starting to have my doubts smile.gif
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post #15757 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 05:51 PM
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Ufokillerz

Contact Jeff about that. Sounds like something should be worked out.

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post #15758 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

got my veneered order in, have yet to unbox the S2's but was a bit disappointed with my Veneered Slanted 8HTS, painted black in the back instead of veneered, I'm ceiling mounting these, and in my room, means 3 of them will have their backs visible. Guess its something i have to live with.

I wouldn't live with it. All exterior surfaces should be veneered. Call him and get that right. You spent to much on those and a arbitrary decision without consulting with you first is not cool.

Opinions are not facts.
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post #15759 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:28 PM
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What do I need to buy? I read here about iNuke, Omnimic, Rew. What things do I need to buy so that I can calibrate my room properly? I have a Denon x4000. The 212s are going to be here in a couple weeks, the 228 center, S2 and slanted 8s should be here next week. I'd like to have the right calibration stuff here waiting for them. I have a radio shack SPL meter.
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post #15760 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Jeff just e-mailed me my tracking numbers = he is real and alive and doing something. I was starting to have my doubts smile.gif

He emailed me yesterday and said he was done with my upgrades and would be shipping out today. If I didn't get tracking numbers does that mean he didn't ship them out?
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post #15761 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casperslide2004 View Post

What do I need to buy? I read here about iNuke, Omnimic, Rew. What things do I need to buy so that I can calibrate my room properly? I have a Denon x4000. The 212s are going to be here in a couple weeks, the 228 center, S2 and slanted 8s should be here next week. I'd like to have the right calibration stuff here waiting for them. I have a radio shack SPL meter.

I think the exact answer is relative to what kind of tech savvy guy are you and what are you willing to put up with/learn to get proper real measurements. Omnimic is basically plug and play but essentially you will just get FR response. Our systems are much more than a line. What is happening in the time domain is more important. REW gives you waterfall and spectrogram graphs to analyze and see improvements with speaker/sub placement and the addition of room treatments. You will need a mic and thats it. There is a bit of a setup learning curve but is not very hard depending on your ability to learn new software that is foreign at first
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post #15762 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Jonathan is addressing the fact that JTR speakers are so sensitive that some Audyssey-based systems don't have enough trim range to get JTR speakers within the window of their range. To calibrate JTR speakers in those systems, you need to use test tones and an SPL meter. The setting of the MVC for "Reference Level" will be incorrect, but at least you'll be calibrated for levels for the speakers and sub(s). The key difference is that I recommend using external test tones, like a test tone disc, to reset the levels instead of the internal test tones of the receiver.

Another way to deal with the problem Jonathan is addressing is to use attenuators. These lower the signal levels before the amplifiers and allow Audyssey to properly set the trims. This was discussed in the Audyssey thread:
http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-XATT10-In-Line-Attenuator/dp/B0024TDIN6

Craig

The internal audyssey filters still have another 8dB or more past the lowers point on your trim levels, they can't be user adjusted, Luke from Audyssey confirmed this, no matter what your avr sets your trims at, the EQ remains the same. The only thing the trim levels are for is to set your reference at 0 and to equal channel levels. Using your test tones works just fine and can be confirmed setting them and using omnimic etc. The only thing you'll need to do is find your new reference. Internal tones work perfectly fine if there is no disc.
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post #15763 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:51 PM
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Austin told me to turn it down... tongue.gif

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Hahaahah...

I mean, I guess you guys are going to have to draw your own conclusions.

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Drew mine, Austin never had the remote to begin with, Asim's 2nd floor would have potentially fallen in otherwise....

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

A quick jump in here... Point missed.

Lowering the .1 (LFE) channel low pass (not tied to speaker crossover) becomes less an issue when running subs at perfectly matched levels with mains. As you raise the subwoofer level above a neutral balance, shading/tilting down the upper end makes more and more sense.

Look at the graphic from Craig John's post again:


For a moment forget the roll off an just look at the *difference* between the green & orange curves. The two curves are parallel above the blue line (120Hz), and they converge near 40Hz. Between there is a smooth tapering which makes for a shelf filter. In the case of this 8th order filter, the maximum cut of the shelf is about 8dB as seen between the two curves at 120Hz, with about 4dB of cut around 80Hz. A 100Hz setting makes for about 1/2 those cut values on a similar shape shelf filter.

In many cases, this helps allow for the amped up bass setting while better tapering and transitioning back to the main speakers.

As I and others have posted, this is simply a matter of final "seasoning to taste" in the same manner we might give a modest or aggressive rise to the subwoofer response itself.

Thanks for pointing that out Mark, I am with you there...but does making a change from 120 to 80hz actually make an audible difference? I guess that is up to the end user whether they can actually tell or not?
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post #15764 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Oh man.. unbelievable!!

The thought never occured to me that it would be in 2:35:1- YES!!!



Here's a pic, 158 inches diagonal - seriously, it was like being at the concert from my front row couch, this pic is from the 2nd row:








As incredible as the picture was it paled in comparison to the sound! My god the sound!!

I loved it in the theater, but JTR's for the win!! I was told this morning that I had the volume too loud - that NEVER happens, usually my wife doesn't hear anything - or it doesn't bother her anyway. When people say metal can't sound good, I'll just pop in this disk. Unreal. The theater did beat my room for 3D, I don't have that yet and the 3D was really well done in the theater.


However, I did get frustrated while watching. When I would get up and move around the room the bass went from tight and dialed in to bloaty and crappy as I moved around the room. Of course I knew this was already the case to a certain extent and have measurments from all the seats that show how much the freq changes. However, it was never as evident to me as it was last night.


So..... frustration with uneven bass + snow day + a few too many phone calls to Archaea trying to figure out the inuke = tearing my room apart to experiment with sub placement. Right now i have subs as end tables, subs stacked by the bathroom and 4 subs up front.

Lots more experimenting to do.... good thing schools already been cancelled tomorrow.














Oh yeah, Dave in answer to your question:






smile.gif

Carp, I just watched Dream Theater/Luna Park. Great disc but everything is gonna pale in comparison audio wise to Through the Never lol. I thought they recorded LaBrie's vocals a tad harsh. I also didn't realize Portnoy was no longer playing with them...but Mangini is something special too. Is Portnoy fully with Adrenaline Mob after the Avenged album and tour?.........or is he doing a bunch of different things?

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post #15765 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

He emailed me yesterday and said he was done with my upgrades and would be shipping out today. If I didn't get tracking numbers does that mean he didn't ship them out?

I am not sure anybody can answer that but Jeff. My guess is if you didn't get a tracking number e-mailed he didn't end up shipping them out today but that is just a guess.
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post #15766 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 07:17 PM
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I'm reading this thread from about the time the Noesis speakers were introduced until current and am currently at page 400 (but have also been reading from mid January on). I see a few of you mentioning that you are using mid bass modules (MBM's). Carp using the HSU and others DIY. How are you integrating them into your system? I am expecting 228 LCR's next week. I am upgrading for a variety of reasons, one of which is my mid bass sucks with my current speakers and I have to run my 3 Triax's crossed over at 150. The way the internal crossovers are set in my current front 3, I have 2 - 5.25 inch drivers per speaker handling most of the mid bass. I am hoping the 228's solve this. If not, I was thinking of adding 2 of the HSU MBM's up front. Actually two would make an excellent center channel stand. I am not sure how I would integrate them into my system though if needed. All of the sub outs on my denon 4311 are taken by my Triax subs. I could run the speaker wires to the MBM's and then to the speakers, but I am not sure they would be able to keep up with the 228's or if this would even work.

I can't wait for these 228's. I am watching Dream Theaters Live at Budokan and it isn't anything impressive. My center just isn't cutting it. Bass sounds amazing though

Thanks
Ray

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post #15767 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 07:46 PM
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I am not sure anybody can answer that but Jeff. My guess is if you didn't get a tracking number e-mailed he didn't end up shipping them out today but that is just a guess.

On one of my orders, I got the tracking numbers the day after they shipped.
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post #15768 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 08:35 PM
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Just ordered Omnimic, figured even if I wanted to use REW I should be able to use that mic for it. Thanks.
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post #15769 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by casperslide2004 View Post

Just ordered Omnimic, figured even if I wanted to use REW I should be able to use that mic for it. Thanks.

It's a great tool, you'll be glad to have it!!

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post #15770 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I think the exact answer is relative to what kind of tech savvy guy are you and what are you willing to put up with/learn to get proper real measurements. Omnimic is basically plug and play but essentially you will just get FR response. Our systems are much more than a line. What is happening in the time domain is more important. REW gives you waterfall and spectrogram graphs to analyze and see improvements with speaker/sub placement and the addition of room treatments. You will need a mic and thats it. There is a bit of a setup learning curve but is not very hard depending on your ability to learn new software that is foreign at first

Omnimic has every measurement capability necessary to optimize and setup a system in the time domain, waterfalls, polars, you name it. REW has some bells and whistles you won't get with Omnimic, but Omnimic is a robust measuring system that has everything necessary for a professional level system optimization.

I have both and do not find Omnimic lacking.
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post #15771 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Omnimic has every measurement capability necessary to optimize and setup a system in the time domain, waterfalls, polars, you name it. REW has some bells and whistles you won't get with Omnimic, but Omnimic is a robust measuring system that has everything necessary for a professional level system optimization.

I have both and do not find Omnimic lacking.


Other than running track 2,6, and 12 (frequency sweeps) and using the spl meter I don't know how to use anything else.

You say you can optimize the time domain, how do you do that? Bass decay tab? No idea how to use that. I've been playing with sub placement the last couple days and the only thing I know to do is run the sweeps and tweak distance settings on my minidsp to smooth the response on the graph. What else should I be doing on the omni?
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post #15772 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I'm reading this thread from about the time the Noesis speakers were introduced until current and am currently at page 400 (but have also been reading from mid January on). I see a few of you mentioning that you are using mid bass modules (MBM's). Carp using the HSU and others DIY. How are you integrating them into your system? I am expecting 228 LCR's next week. I am upgrading for a variety of reasons, one of which is my mid bass sucks with my current speakers and I have to run my 3 Triax's crossed over at 150. The way the internal crossovers are set in my current front 3, I have 2 - 5.25 inch drivers per speaker handling most of the mid bass. I am hoping the 228's solve this. If not, I was thinking of adding 2 of the HSU MBM's up front. Actually two would make an excellent center channel stand. I am not sure how I would integrate them into my system though if needed. All of the sub outs on my denon 4311 are taken by my Triax subs. I could run the speaker wires to the MBM's and then to the speakers, but I am not sure they would be able to keep up with the 228's or if this would even work.

I can't wait for these 228's. I am watching Dream Theaters Live at Budokan and it isn't anything impressive. My center just isn't cutting it. Bass sounds amazing though

Thanks
Ray

The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....
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post #15773 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

Carp, I just watched Dream Theater/Luna Park. Great disc but everything is gonna pale in comparison audio wise to Through the Never lol. I thought they recorded LaBrie's vocals a tad harsh. I also didn't realize Portnoy was no longer playing with them...but Mangini is something special too. Is Portnoy fully with Adrenaline Mob after the Avenged album and tour?.........or is he doing a bunch of different things?


I haven't bought the DT disk yet, like you are saying I heard the audio isn't as good as on some of their other concert disks. I don't know what Portnoy is doing now, I have a feeling he'll eventually be back with DT. It's weird though, as much as I like his drumming I felt like the last 2 albums overall were an improvement over the few before when he was still in the band.
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post #15774 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:09 PM
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The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....


I wish they could combine the overall sound quality on Budokan with the vocals on Score. I thought Labrie was flat A LOT on Budakon and spot on for Score - but with Score the rest of the music seems flat.

I go back and forth, but usually I end up with 2.1 for concerts - I kept it 5.1 for the new Metallica though. So well done.... did I say that already? tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #15775 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Other than running track 2,6, and 12 (frequency sweeps) and using the spl meter I don't know how to use anything else.

You say you can optimize the time domain, how do you do that? Bass decay tab? No idea how to use that. I've been playing with sub placement the last couple days and the only thing I know to do is run the sweeps and tweak distance settings on my minidsp to smooth the response on the graph. What else should I be doing on the omni?

Omnimic has a good manual that explains what a measurement is and usually how to apply it.

The time domain functions are most helpful in guiding room treatments and speaker/sub positioning.

As to the bass decay tab, it is essentially a waterfall plot of the bass frequencies, presented in a different format than the classic waterfall, that helps to find the best sub positions for good frequency response and "tight" bass - meaning least overhang or ringing. Also, by selecting the advanced tab you can generate classic waterfall graphs from the frequency response tab.

Using Rt60 and ETC data can help guide room treatment placement.

There's other stuff too, like using impulse response to precisely place the speakers exactly the same acoustic distance from the MLP.
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post #15776 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:46 PM
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full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s
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post #15777 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Omnimic has a good manual that explains what a measurement is and usually how to apply it.

The time domain functions are most helpful in guiding room treatments and speaker/sub positioning.

As to the bass decay tab, it is essentially a waterfall plot of the bass frequencies, presented in a different format than the classic waterfall, that helps to find the best sub positions for good frequency response and "tight" bass - meaning least overhang or ringing. Also, by selecting the advanced tab you can generate classic waterfall graphs from the frequency response tab.

Using Rt60 and ETC data can help guide room treatment placement.

There's other stuff too, like using impulse response to precisely place the speakers exactly the same acoustic distance from the MLP.



Thanks, I've got lots of reading to do - I think I'm allergic to reading manuals but I really need to make an exception this time.
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post #15778 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post



full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s

That Cap S2 looks awesome with that veneer, bummer on the Slant 8 not being completely veneered.
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post #15779 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:51 PM
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OMG, having that slant 8 on the S2 like that would put my OCD into full blown panic mode hahahahaha SCRATCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyways, they look awesome!!!! Not sure why anyone would care about the back of the slant 8 not being veneered, They will be on the wall and completely unseen....

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #15780 of 35889 Old 02-05-2014, 09:53 PM
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Beautiful!! I hope you get the slanted 8's taken care of.
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