Official JTR speaker thread - Page 529 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15841 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Omnimic has every measurement capability necessary to optimize and setup a system in the time domain, waterfalls, polars, you name it. REW has some bells and whistles you won't get with Omnimic, but Omnimic is a robust measuring system that has everything necessary for a professional level system optimization.

I have both and do not find Omnimic lacking.


Other than running track 2,6, and 12 (frequency sweeps) and using the spl meter I don't know how to use anything else.

You say you can optimize the time domain, how do you do that? Bass decay tab? No idea how to use that. I've been playing with sub placement the last couple days and the only thing I know to do is run the sweeps and tweak distance settings on my minidsp to smooth the response on the graph. What else should I be doing on the omni?
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post #15842 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I'm reading this thread from about the time the Noesis speakers were introduced until current and am currently at page 400 (but have also been reading from mid January on). I see a few of you mentioning that you are using mid bass modules (MBM's). Carp using the HSU and others DIY. How are you integrating them into your system? I am expecting 228 LCR's next week. I am upgrading for a variety of reasons, one of which is my mid bass sucks with my current speakers and I have to run my 3 Triax's crossed over at 150. The way the internal crossovers are set in my current front 3, I have 2 - 5.25 inch drivers per speaker handling most of the mid bass. I am hoping the 228's solve this. If not, I was thinking of adding 2 of the HSU MBM's up front. Actually two would make an excellent center channel stand. I am not sure how I would integrate them into my system though if needed. All of the sub outs on my denon 4311 are taken by my Triax subs. I could run the speaker wires to the MBM's and then to the speakers, but I am not sure they would be able to keep up with the 228's or if this would even work.

I can't wait for these 228's. I am watching Dream Theaters Live at Budokan and it isn't anything impressive. My center just isn't cutting it. Bass sounds amazing though

Thanks
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The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....

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post #15843 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

Carp, I just watched Dream Theater/Luna Park. Great disc but everything is gonna pale in comparison audio wise to Through the Never lol. I thought they recorded LaBrie's vocals a tad harsh. I also didn't realize Portnoy was no longer playing with them...but Mangini is something special too. Is Portnoy fully with Adrenaline Mob after the Avenged album and tour?.........or is he doing a bunch of different things?


I haven't bought the DT disk yet, like you are saying I heard the audio isn't as good as on some of their other concert disks. I don't know what Portnoy is doing now, I have a feeling he'll eventually be back with DT. It's weird though, as much as I like his drumming I felt like the last 2 albums overall were an improvement over the few before when he was still in the band.
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post #15844 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....


I wish they could combine the overall sound quality on Budokan with the vocals on Score. I thought Labrie was flat A LOT on Budakon and spot on for Score - but with Score the rest of the music seems flat.

I go back and forth, but usually I end up with 2.1 for concerts - I kept it 5.1 for the new Metallica though. So well done.... did I say that already? tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #15845 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Other than running track 2,6, and 12 (frequency sweeps) and using the spl meter I don't know how to use anything else.

You say you can optimize the time domain, how do you do that? Bass decay tab? No idea how to use that. I've been playing with sub placement the last couple days and the only thing I know to do is run the sweeps and tweak distance settings on my minidsp to smooth the response on the graph. What else should I be doing on the omni?

Omnimic has a good manual that explains what a measurement is and usually how to apply it.

The time domain functions are most helpful in guiding room treatments and speaker/sub positioning.

As to the bass decay tab, it is essentially a waterfall plot of the bass frequencies, presented in a different format than the classic waterfall, that helps to find the best sub positions for good frequency response and "tight" bass - meaning least overhang or ringing. Also, by selecting the advanced tab you can generate classic waterfall graphs from the frequency response tab.

Using Rt60 and ETC data can help guide room treatment placement.

There's other stuff too, like using impulse response to precisely place the speakers exactly the same acoustic distance from the MLP.
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post #15846 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:46 PM
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full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s
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post #15847 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Omnimic has a good manual that explains what a measurement is and usually how to apply it.

The time domain functions are most helpful in guiding room treatments and speaker/sub positioning.

As to the bass decay tab, it is essentially a waterfall plot of the bass frequencies, presented in a different format than the classic waterfall, that helps to find the best sub positions for good frequency response and "tight" bass - meaning least overhang or ringing. Also, by selecting the advanced tab you can generate classic waterfall graphs from the frequency response tab.

Using Rt60 and ETC data can help guide room treatment placement.

There's other stuff too, like using impulse response to precisely place the speakers exactly the same acoustic distance from the MLP.



Thanks, I've got lots of reading to do - I think I'm allergic to reading manuals but I really need to make an exception this time.
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post #15848 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post



full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s

That Cap S2 looks awesome with that veneer, bummer on the Slant 8 not being completely veneered.
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post #15849 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:51 PM
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OMG, having that slant 8 on the S2 like that would put my OCD into full blown panic mode hahahahaha SCRATCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyways, they look awesome!!!! Not sure why anyone would care about the back of the slant 8 not being veneered, They will be on the wall and completely unseen....

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #15850 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 09:53 PM
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Beautiful!! I hope you get the slanted 8's taken care of.
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post #15851 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

OMG, having that slant 8 on the S2 like that would put my OCD into full blown panic mode hahahahaha SCRATCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyways, they look awesome!!!! Not sure why anyone would care about the back of the slant 8 not being veneered, They will be on the wall and completely unseen....

problem is that mine are ceiling mounted, have to figure out how to rig them properly. I mean i did ask if jeff could put in some sort of fly point on the top of the speaker for ceiling mounting, never got a reply on that. Ceiling mounted in a open room where the entire right side and back side are open layout means that i see the backs of 3 of my speakers when walking towards the room. Not sure if i'm just picky, but these slanted 8s cost $1050 each before discounts

veneer on the s2 was a steal at 300 bucks, the veneer on the slanted 8s cost 150 each.

seems that one of my power cables is a 2 prong schuko also!
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post #15852 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post



full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s
Are you mounting them away from the wall where the back will be seen?
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post #15853 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

Are you mounting them away from the wall where the back will be seen?

they are all mounted slightly away from the wall
3 of them will be in your face with the back side, the only guy that has ever seen my room is gorilla83 and sandbagger, probably a face palm moment if they ever see these in person hah.
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post #15854 of 30452 Old 02-05-2014, 10:26 PM
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old picture of my room, the slanted 8s will be mounted directly to the joists above, when i figure out the mounting, but in the same approximate locations.

this was back when i had quintuples and triple 8s for my front stage
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post #15855 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

problem is that mine are ceiling mounted, have to figure out how to rig them properly. I mean i did ask if jeff could put in some sort of fly point on the top of the speaker for ceiling mounting, never got a reply on that. Ceiling mounted in a open room where the entire right side and back side are open layout means that i see the backs of 3 of my speakers when walking towards the room. Not sure if i'm just picky, but these slanted 8s cost $1050 each before discounts

veneer on the s2 was a steal at 300 bucks, the veneer on the slanted 8s cost 150 each.

seems that one of my power cables is a 2 prong schuko also!

I bet pictures don't do the veneer justice.

I have never seen a speaker not have the same finish on all sides, but maybe that's how Jeff veneers all of his s8, if ever. If I could see the back day to day, it would bug me crazy. Definitely call him. I'm sure he'll make it right.

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post #15856 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 03:47 AM
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Not saying it makes it right, but my guess is Jeff assumed all slanted 8s are mounted flush to the wall and would just scratch the heck out of the veneer from mounting and removing. In that scenario, the standard finish is much more durable and would hold up mush better against potential sratches.
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post #15857 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 03:57 AM
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old picture of my room, the slanted 8s will be mounted directly to the joists above, when i figure out the mounting, but in the same approximate locations.

this was back when i had quintuples and triple 8s for my front stage

Just a suggestion. Have you considered hanging a black/dark color velvet curtain trim from the ceiling to just behind and down to bottom of equipment level? I think it would help hide everything protruding from the ceiling.

Another thing I would consider is installing a ceiling curtain track that ran from back and just along the right out side of the room...Similar to the ones you see around individual hospital beds. Hang a full height blackout velvet curtain and you could bring it out from the left wall just to cover the back of space or all the way to close off the room for more light control. Depending on thickness of the curtain, probably help a bit with the sound too.

Both of the above could be done with ceiling tracks which either curtain size could slide on.

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post #15858 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....

I like the immersion of music concerts with surrounds, but hearing all the vocals come from the center is just unnatural to me. I always end up watching in stereo as well.

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post #15859 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I like the immersion of music concerts with surrounds, but hearing all the vocals come from the center is just unnatural to me. I always end up watching in stereo as well.

I am the opposite. I own a handful of blu ray concert blu rays and just enjoy the 5.1 mix more. I am not a huge music guy compared to some folks on this thread but the 5.1 mix just sounds much more immersive to my ears. When I switch back and forth the stereo mix sounds flat in comparison. The Dave Matthews blu ray is unreal in 5.1...one of the best recordigns I have ever heard.
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post #15860 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I am the opposite. I own a handful of blu ray concert blu rays and just enjoy the 5.1 mix more. I am not a huge music guy compared to some folks on this thread but the 5.1 mix just sounds much more immersive to my ears. When I switch back and forth the stereo mix sounds flat in comparison. The Dave Matthews blu ray is unreal in 5.1...one of the best recordigns I have ever heard.

I'll have to try the DMB bluray. Which concert?

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post #15861 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I'll have to try the DMB bluray. Which concert?


Here is the concert:
http://www.amazon.com/Dave-Matthews-Tim-Reynolds-Blu-ray/dp/B000T4SWXO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391688813&sr=8-1&keywords=dave+matthews+blu+ray

I often check here first for a pretty honest review of the audio (and video) quality. They have done a ton of reviews of music and movies and are usually pretty spot on with the technical aspects of how good the quality of the disc is. I have bought probably about 15 concert discs on blu ray and have a bunch more on order after doing some research on which concerts sound good...of course have to take into account personal taste in music. People like Carp and countryVW love Metalica...me, not so much.
http://www.blu-ray.com/
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post #15862 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 04:33 AM
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Holy crap!!

Book of Eli demo scene. At only -20dB...bullet just hit me square in the chest and forehead. And a couple grazed my shins. But don't worry...I'm ok.

I can't recall experiencing this level of overall realism, sound immersion, clarity, and dynamic punch from any ht I've been in.

Try Pacific Rim... I'm telling u... It's audio and visual bliss.
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post #15863 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 04:42 AM
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old picture of my room, the slanted 8s will be mounted directly to the joists above, when i figure out the mounting, but in the same approximate locations.

this was back when i had quintuples and triple 8s for my front stage
Looking at those pictures there is no way I would drill more holes directly into the back of the S8. Build a brace with the existing S8 mounts then attach your mount to that brace. This way you have a removable mount with holes instead of the S8.

That is just 2 cents. Whatever you decide that system is Beautiful. Great choice on veneers. Those S2s look Unreal. smile.gif
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I'll have to try the DMB bluray. Which concert?
Pick up a copy of The Eagles, both "Hell Freezes Over" and "Live From Melbourne"

Jeff should include those with all JTR total system purchases along with a copy off Open Range. smile.gif
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post #15865 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 05:19 AM
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Just leave it so it read 68db and let audyssey run. When it is all done, adjust the volume in the Marantz menu system under test tones.
When you use the internal test tones after running Audyssey, the Audyssey filters are not engaged. (Watch the front panel of your receiver when you turn the test tones on... the "Audyssey" logo turns off.) Therefore , when you reset the levels based on the internal test tones, and then reengage Audyssey afterwards, you are no longer properly calibrated. If you want to reset or check the levels after running Audyssey, you should use *external* test tones, like a test disc, and then run them through the Audyssey filters.
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I am guessing you will run them a little "hot" anyways (above what Audyssey will set it at). To me Audyssey is great starting point but I end up tweaking it on the back end. I do things like turning up the subs to run a little hot, manually change the crossover to 80HZ to 100HZ for all channels,etc...
Turning up the subwoofer trim is fine, but I don't suggest resetting the speaker levels for the above reason.

Craig

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

If this is the way to do it...
then how is this possible? I am just confused??
Jonathan is addressing the fact that JTR speakers are so sensitive that some Audyssey-based systems don't have enough trim range to get JTR speakers within the window of their range. To calibrate JTR speakers in those systems, you need to use test tones and an SPL meter. The setting of the MVC for "Reference Level" will be incorrect, but at least you'll be calibrated for levels for the speakers and sub(s). The key difference is that I recommend using external test tones, like a test tone disc, to reset the levels instead of the internal test tones of the receiver.

Another way to deal with the problem Jonathan is addressing is to use attenuators. These lower the signal levels before the amplifiers and allow Audyssey to properly set the trims. This was discussed in the Audyssey thread:
http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-XATT10-In-Line-Attenuator/dp/B0024TDIN6

Craig


I only have experience with Onkyo's Audyssey implementation as an owner, so I guess I can't speak to other AVR manufacturers, but both my TX-NR1007 and the Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre-amp definitely keep the channel trim levels that Audyssey sets when asking the AVR to do test tones after Audyssey has been initially run. Even if I turn Audyssey off (which I often do) the Audyssey set trim levels, and distances are left intact from what Audyssey set. This is my most typical practice - (having run Audyssey probably 50 times or more in my room). I typically run Audyssey, let it set channel trim levels and distances,then turn it off. I measure with omnimic afterwards to make sure the trims are all at or very close to 75dB and they always are. About the most variance I've ever seen in any run is something like 1.5dB off at the listening position instead of 75dB.

For example with my 1007 unit - if I run Audyssey and it sets the trim levels on my 228HT to -9.5dB, then when I do a test tone on the same channel trim level the trim is definitely still set to -9.5, and if I take out my omnimic and measure SPL at the listening position I am almost always within a single dB of 75dB. I've done this countless times.

I have found the test tones to be mostly centered at a frequency on most AVRs, so that might come into play if Audyssey does disengage for test tones and that particular frequency was affected by a roommode, but typically,at least on my Onkyo's - I trust the testtones to set the speaker channels reliably after Audyssey has run.
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post #15866 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 05:20 AM
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Try Pacific Rim... I'm telling u... It's audio and visual bliss.

Oh yes. This was one of my fav movies from last year. Saw it in Dolby atmos and it was awesome. Def a reference bd I've been anxiously waiting to try.

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post #15867 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Quote:
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I think the exact answer is relative to what kind of tech savvy guy are you and what are you willing to put up with/learn to get proper real measurements. Omnimic is basically plug and play but essentially you will just get FR response. Our systems are much more than a line. What is happening in the time domain is more important. REW gives you waterfall and spectrogram graphs to analyze and see improvements with speaker/sub placement and the addition of room treatments. You will need a mic and thats it. There is a bit of a setup learning curve but is not very hard depending on your ability to learn new software that is foreign at first

Omnimic has every measurement capability necessary to optimize and setup a system in the time domain, waterfalls, polars, you name it. REW has some bells and whistles you won't get with Omnimic, but Omnimic is a robust measuring system that has everything necessary for a professional level system optimization.

I have both and do not find Omnimic lacking.


I find I'm agreeing with Gooddoc a lot lately, I don't think Omnimic is missing any essential function over REW. If so please point it out.
The only feature of REW I like over Omnimic is the ease of automatically converting REW frequency captures into specific parametric EQ filters for something like the Behringer DCX2496. I think omnimic was working on something like this, but I don't know if it ever came to fruition. I've not kept up on it because it's not a feature I've used more than once to toy with in REW.

As to Plug an Play and ease of use - -- - that surely is is good. I've played with REW and found that I didn't use it nearly as much as omnimic because omnimic is pick up and use. I can be accurately measuring any new room in 3 minutes with omnimic, and that includes powering up the laptop and setting up the mic. All I do is hand the system owner a CD, and away I go. The longest delay is waiting for my computer to boot up. No spl meter to mess with to try to get SPL levels correct, no tying in the computer to a unknown system, andthe omnimic is realtime captures meaning I can watch the frequency response curves move on the screen in realtime as i move the Mic, or speakers. This makes it much easier to find and avoid room modes in setup, or recommending placement.

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post #15868 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 05:33 AM
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UFO - Bummer about the lack of back veneer with your mounting situation, but like the others said I'm sure Jeff will take care of it. With that said, have you had any time to listen/play with the S2s? You have been subless for a while now, so I'm sure you have been craving some LFE. biggrin.gif
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post #15869 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 05:35 AM
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Is omnimic sw compatible with Mac?

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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post #15870 of 30452 Old 02-06-2014, 05:57 AM
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I don't think it is
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