Official JTR speaker thread - Page 529 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:37 PM
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Ya, thats a one of for sure, not a speaker he will put into regular production. My center is last in the pics!

I had a BrentTHX come over for an audition and leave with my Noesis 212's last night! biggrin.gif (well, an agreement to pick them up next week). We listened to a few songs and he seemed pretty impressed with them for sure tongue.gif. We then put the S8's in place and had a laugh on how good they are and how people think they are just some little surround speaker. They can freaking blast! He laughed at the subs lol

Well, theres no looking back now, bring on the 215's!!!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 02-06-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Ya, thats a one of for sure, not a speaker he will put into regular production. My center is last in the pics!

I had a BrentTHX come over for an audition and leave with my Noesis 212's last night! biggrin.gif (well, an agreement to pick them up next week). We listened to a few songs and he seemed pretty impressed with them for sure tongue.gif. We then put the S8's in place and had a laugh on how good they are and how people think they are just some little surround speaker. They can freaking blast! He laughed at the subs lol

Well, theres no looking back now, bring on the 215's!!!

Yes I was quit impressed with them!! And will taking them as soon as new grill arrives. Now I just have to talk you out of one set of your S8's ;) . As for your subs, that is some serious bass you can produce. Concert level without breaking a sweat!!! My ears where ringing for a good hour after!!!  In a good way :)

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Old 02-06-2014, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Ya, thats a one of for sure, not a speaker he will put into regular production. My center is last in the pics!

I had a BrentTHX come over for an audition and leave with my Noesis 212's last night! biggrin.gif (well, an agreement to pick them up next week). We listened to a few songs and he seemed pretty impressed with them for sure tongue.gif. We then put the S8's in place and had a laugh on how good they are and how people think they are just some little surround speaker. They can freaking blast! He laughed at the subs lol

Well, theres no looking back now, bring on the 215's!!!

congrats! more bass for you!
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:04 PM
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Yeah the horn looks like it is carved right in to the cabinet, that is so cool. I have got to stop looking at speaekrs before I loose my house biggrin.gif

That "integrated wood horn" is the same concept as the 215T. Hope to have a pic of the cabinet soon. smile.gif

Opinions are not facts.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:40 PM
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Yeah the horn looks like it is carved right in to the cabinet, that is so cool. I have got to stop looking at speaekrs before I loose my house biggrin.gif
That's the first time I have been able to view anything on Facebook thanks for posting the link. smile.gif

Is the horn part of the cabinet? That is one BA looking speaker!!
Chris

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Old 02-06-2014, 03:53 PM
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Ah, good ole volume normalization. Yes, I'm familiar with that but that is a different process than what I was thinking was going on. Volume normalization is not a simple channel level adjustment, but an actual compensatory FR change to achieve similar filter on, and filter off volume levels. No doubt it can impact a channel volume level.
I found the old posts in the Audyssey thread from 2009 and 2010. Actually, Chris calls the process "Level Normalization," and the description of it is just level compensation for the filters. There is no "compensatory FR change" in the level normalization process. The FR changes all occur in the filter taps for each channel.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/17340#post_16982682
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/24840#post_18278211

That is an explanation of the process for the subwoofer channel, but the same process is used on the main channels. On the first set of chirps Audyssey measures the FR and the levels and distances. It then just measures the FR on the subsequent chirps. It then calculates the filters to be the inverse of the measured FR, (in the frequency and time domains.) It can set multiple filter taps for each channel, some boosts and some cuts. If the sum total of all the filters in a given channel results in an overall cut in level, such that the level would now be below 75 dB, it boosts it back up to 75 dB. On the other side, if the sum total of all the filters in a given channel results in an overall boost in level, such that the level would now be above 75 dB, it cuts it back to 75 dB. But these are truly just simple level adjustments, not a "compensatory FR change."

Craig
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:33 PM
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Finally my new sub came! JTR S2

This is it next to my THT (retired to the garage setup) and my oldest daughter that is a little over 2.5 years old. The THT had been wrapped in suede and that is why it looks raw right now.

This is it in it's new home naked.

And with it's clothes on (blurry pic)

Tucked away in it's corner



After dialing it in.....Wow! This beast is super clean sounding with authority! I will get more time to play with it this weekend and hopefully get to take some sweeps.

edit...why the hell are my pictures so big??? I can make them smaller if you guys think it is overwhelming.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:47 PM
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Your little girl looks to be enjoying the new subwoofer. Awesome picture. smile.gif
Where's her Slayer shirt? biggrin.gif
Congratulations
Chris

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Old 02-06-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Hi Jonathan,

Let me try this again... smile.gif

When Audyssey applies a set of filter taps to a channel, it implements a group of boosts and cuts at various frequencies. If, for example, the cuts are greater over a larger number of frequencies than the boosts, the "average" level of the whole signal will be reduced. Audyssey will then raise the average level of the whole signal to compensate. Audyssey does this by looking at the entire bandwidth of the signal or "chirp.".

When you measure the SPL of a bandwidth-limited "noise" signal, (the receiver's internal test tones), if Audyssey has made changes to the FR within that bandwidth, but you're not measuring them because Audyssey is not engaged in the signal path, you end up with a measurement that is different than what Audyssey measured. Therefore, if you re-set the levels based on these measurements, and then re-engage Audyssey, you now have a different calibration than Audyssey's, but one that doesn't take Audyssey's filters into account.

Why would anyone feel the need to do this? Audyssey measures the levels for all channels using the same mic, in the same spot with the same test signal. It then calculates the filters for all the channels. Finally it compensates for the average level changes the filters induce, and sets the level trims to ensure that all the channels are outputting equal *average* signal levels. It calculates them all the same way, using the same algorithm. Why would anyone think they're wrong... and then re-set them without taking the filters into consideration?

If you make changes to the trim levels after running Audyssey, using the receiver's internal test tones, it means you are uncorrecting the corrections Audyssey has made to compensate for it's filters. If you change a channel level by 1.5 dB using the internal test tones, when you turn the test tones off and the Audyssey filters are re-engaged, that channel's calibration is off by 1.5 dB from the rest of the channels.

The way to confirm this is to use external test tones that run through the Audyssey filters. I have 2 such test tone discs, Avia and The 5.1 Audio Toolkit. I have checked the calibration with the internal test tones and both test discs. Here are the results:

Test Tones:
L 76
C 76
R 77.5
RS 76
LS 76
SW 73

Avia
L 76
C 76
R 76
RS 76
LS 76.5
SW 75.5

5.1 Audio Toolkit
L 76
C 76
R 76
RS 75.5
LS 76.5
SW 75

Using the internal test tones results in a 4.5 dB difference in calibrated levels between channels. Using 2 different test discs, with Audyssey engaged for both, results in 1 or 1.5 dB of difference. If we could measure and average the exact same way Audyssey does, (sweeps + averaging), I'm sure we would see that Audyssey correctly compensated for the EQ filters it applied, and set the levels correctly, and that using the test tones afterwards results in un-correcting the corrected levels. I know it seems intuitive to want to change the levels when your SPL shows that they don't appear to be correct. Nonetheless, the ARE in fact correct and it's the reading you get from the SPL meter that are not. There's nothing wrong with your SPL meter; you're just not using the proper test signals.

Audyssey doesn't get everything right. However, one thing it does *very* well is to get the level calibration correct. To override that, based on measurements taken with a different mic, different test signals and without the Audyssey filters engaged is...

... well... I'll just say that I don't suggest it. smile.gif

Craig

PS. Sorry for going off-topic in the JTR thread. redface.gif

Craig would it be correct to use an audio test disc (Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark and Calibration Disc 2nd Edition) with Audyssey engaged to change trim to make reference (75dB) at -5dB MV since my Denon AVR4311 is maxing the trim (-12dB) on JTR T12 LCR, but not on my DefTech surrounds. Using a RS spl meter would I just set MV at -5 and then set all trim at 75dB?

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Old 02-06-2014, 04:52 PM
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Your little girl looks to be enjoying the new subwoofer. Awesome picture. smile.gif
Where's her Slayer shirt? biggrin.gif
Congratulations
Chris

Lol. I am surprised it doesn't have ponies on it. Everything just about is either ponies or horses! I have to act like I like her little pony toys and play with her and let her ride on my back like I am a horse. eek.gif

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Old 02-06-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I found the old posts in the Audyssey thread from 2009 and 2010. Actually, Chris calls the process "Level Normalization," and the description of it is just level compensation for the filters. There is no "compensatory FR change" in the level normalization process. The FR changes all occur in the filter taps for each channel.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/17340#post_16982682
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/24840#post_18278211

That is an explanation of the process for the subwoofer channel, but the same process is used on the main channels. On the first set of chirps Audyssey measures the FR and the levels and distances. It then just measures the FR on the subsequent chirps. It then calculates the filters to be the inverse of the measured FR, (in the frequency and time domains.) It can set multiple filter taps for each channel, some boosts and some cuts. If the sum total of all the filters in a given channel results in an overall cut in level, such that the level would now be below 75 dB, it boosts it back up to 75 dB. On the other side, if the sum total of all the filters in a given channel results in an overall boost in level, such that the level would now be above 75 dB, it cuts it back to 75 dB. But these are truly just simple level adjustments, not a "compensatory FR change."

Craig

I can't say I know exactly what's going on since Audyssey is a black box, but I've seen the bass boost problems that Chris himself has attributed to the Audyssey normalization process that are clearly not as a result of a simple averaged channel trim adjustment or simple volume normalization. But I don't want to discuss Audyssey issues here. Chris has never, and I believe will never, admit Audyssey has any inherent faults.

I very much respect your contributions Craig, and this is really an issue that is not worth continued debate IMO. Audyssey is what it is and it will not change, so it's all good.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BrentTHX View Post

Yes I was quit impressed with them!! And will taking them as soon as new grill arrives. Now I just have to talk you out of one set of your S8's wink.gif . As for your subs, that is some serious bass you can produce. Concert level without breaking a sweat!!! My ears where ringing for a good hour after!!!  In a good way smile.gif

Only an hour? C'mon N8, get your head together biggrin.gif
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Finally my new sub came! JTR S2

This is it next to my THT (retired to the garage setup) and my oldest daughter that is a little over 2.5 years old. The THT had been wrapped in suede and that is why it looks raw right now.

This is it in it's new home naked.

And with it's clothes on (blurry pic)

Tucked away in it's corner



After dialing it in.....Wow! This beast is super clean sounding with authority! I will get more time to play with it this weekend and hopefully get to take some sweeps.

edit...why the hell are my pictures so big??? I can make them smaller if you guys think it is overwhelming.

Awesome, congrats! Love the wall treatments too.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HTPCat View Post

Craig would it be correct to use an audio test disc (Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark and Calibration Disc 2nd Edition) with Audyssey engaged to change trim to make reference (75dB) at -5dB MV since my Denon AVR4311 is maxing the trim (-12dB) on JTR T12 LCR, but not on my DefTech surrounds. Using a RS spl meter would I just set MV at -5 and then set all trim at 75dB?

Does the Spears and Munsil disc use a - 20 dbFS tone or a -30 dBFS tone? Asked another way, are you supposed to set the levels to 85 or 75 with that disc?

Craig

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Old 02-06-2014, 05:39 PM
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Awesome, congrats! Love the wall treatments too.

No kidding! Is that just wall to wall absorption panels in different depths to also kind of double as diffusion as well?
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:23 PM
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Lookie lookie from Facebook......RMK? tongue.gif

*

Jeff wouldn't get mad since he posted on FB would he? wink.gif
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:30 PM
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Lookie lookie from Facebook......RMK? tongue.gif

*

Jeff wouldn't get mad since he posted on FB would he? wink.gif

Holy crap!!!! I dub thee JTR REX!!!!!

Pretty sure you need a full beard and be into wrestling grizzly bears before Jeff will even consider selling you one. Thats a man's speaker right there.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:32 PM
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Holy crap!!!! I dub thee JTR REX!!!!!

Pretty sure you need a full beard and be into wrestling grizzly bears before Jeff will even consider selling you one. Thats a man's speaker right there.

The Manliest high efficiency tower pro audio/home theater speaker in the history of mankind! lol tongue.gif

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Old 02-06-2014, 06:33 PM
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Lookie lookie from Facebook......RMK? tongue.gif

*

Jeff wouldn't get mad since he posted on FB would he? wink.gif

Now that is a flagship speaker if I've ever seen one!
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:36 PM
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Awesome, congrats! Love the wall treatments too.
thanks!

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No kidding! Is that just wall to wall absorption panels in different depths to also kind of double as diffusion as well?
I have three different depths and only the staggered squares have oc703 in them. Also the back panels as well. I never thought about the diffuser part. That is actually interesting. I got the staggered idea from landshark but put my own twist to it. I think that I want to make the back wall a little unorthodox as well but am sick of make panels and it is cold enough for me not to want to work in the garage. You guys can laugh at me know because I am in Houston and your winters are brutal compared to ours lol.

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Old 02-06-2014, 06:38 PM
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Lookie lookie from Facebook......RMK? tongue.gif

*

Jeff wouldn't get mad since he posted on FB would he? wink.gif
So... What is it?

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Old 02-06-2014, 06:41 PM
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So... What is it?

It is the new 215T. That is likely RMK's, as he is first in line for the new JTR REX.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:46 PM
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It is the new 215T. That is likely RMK's, as he is first in line for the new JTR REX.

Is there anywhere that I can read about the specs? Looks like two 15" drivers in a tall ported tower with a horn, but I want to know more.

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Old 02-06-2014, 06:49 PM
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Is there anywhere that I can read about the specs? Looks like two 15" drivers in a tall ported tower with a horn, but I want to know more.

Not much out there. The JTR site probably has the most detail:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/jtr-noesis-floor-standing-full-range-speakers-6631501
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:56 PM
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Not much out there. The JTR site probably has the most detail:

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/jtr-noesis-floor-standing-full-range-speakers-6631501

I hope Jeff puts some lead in the bottom too so those things don't tip over. eek.gif

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Old 02-06-2014, 07:12 PM
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Man I just need to dump the wife so I can get some REAL speakers like that!!
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:22 PM
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Those are gonna cost me $1000 in shipping I bet hahahahaha!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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Old 02-06-2014, 07:22 PM
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Man I just need to dump the wife so I can get some REAL speakers like that!!

It even has a slot, so you should be all set! tongue.gif
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:29 PM
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Those are gonna cost me $1000 in shipping I bet hahahahaha!

They're certainly not going to be cheap....lol
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Old 02-06-2014, 07:34 PM
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By the way, I will be joining the JTR family after all - three 212HT's in rosewood veneer. Some may recall that I auditioned the JBL STX835 and was very impressed. It turned out the JBL's horn ended up not being able to be rotated for center channel use due to placement of the handles. Also, time didn't help the HF compression driver smooth out as much as I had hoped. ETA on the veneered Noesis: six weeks.
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