Official JTR speaker thread - Page 529 - AVS Forum
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post #15841 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Jeff just e-mailed me my tracking numbers = he is real and alive and doing something. I was starting to have my doubts smile.gif

He emailed me yesterday and said he was done with my upgrades and would be shipping out today. If I didn't get tracking numbers does that mean he didn't ship them out?
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post #15842 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by casperslide2004 View Post

What do I need to buy? I read here about iNuke, Omnimic, Rew. What things do I need to buy so that I can calibrate my room properly? I have a Denon x4000. The 212s are going to be here in a couple weeks, the 228 center, S2 and slanted 8s should be here next week. I'd like to have the right calibration stuff here waiting for them. I have a radio shack SPL meter.

I think the exact answer is relative to what kind of tech savvy guy are you and what are you willing to put up with/learn to get proper real measurements. Omnimic is basically plug and play but essentially you will just get FR response. Our systems are much more than a line. What is happening in the time domain is more important. REW gives you waterfall and spectrogram graphs to analyze and see improvements with speaker/sub placement and the addition of room treatments. You will need a mic and thats it. There is a bit of a setup learning curve but is not very hard depending on your ability to learn new software that is foreign at first
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post #15843 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Jonathan is addressing the fact that JTR speakers are so sensitive that some Audyssey-based systems don't have enough trim range to get JTR speakers within the window of their range. To calibrate JTR speakers in those systems, you need to use test tones and an SPL meter. The setting of the MVC for "Reference Level" will be incorrect, but at least you'll be calibrated for levels for the speakers and sub(s). The key difference is that I recommend using external test tones, like a test tone disc, to reset the levels instead of the internal test tones of the receiver.

Another way to deal with the problem Jonathan is addressing is to use attenuators. These lower the signal levels before the amplifiers and allow Audyssey to properly set the trims. This was discussed in the Audyssey thread:
http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs-Line-Level-Attenuator/dp/B0006N41B0
http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-XATT10-In-Line-Attenuator/dp/B0024TDIN6

Craig

The internal audyssey filters still have another 8dB or more past the lowers point on your trim levels, they can't be user adjusted, Luke from Audyssey confirmed this, no matter what your avr sets your trims at, the EQ remains the same. The only thing the trim levels are for is to set your reference at 0 and to equal channel levels. Using your test tones works just fine and can be confirmed setting them and using omnimic etc. The only thing you'll need to do is find your new reference. Internal tones work perfectly fine if there is no disc.
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post #15844 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 06:51 PM
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Austin told me to turn it down... tongue.gif

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Hahaahah...

I mean, I guess you guys are going to have to draw your own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

A quick jump in here... Point missed.

Lowering the .1 (LFE) channel low pass (not tied to speaker crossover) becomes less an issue when running subs at perfectly matched levels with mains. As you raise the subwoofer level above a neutral balance, shading/tilting down the upper end makes more and more sense.

Look at the graphic from Craig John's post again:


For a moment forget the roll off an just look at the *difference* between the green & orange curves. The two curves are parallel above the blue line (120Hz), and they converge near 40Hz. Between there is a smooth tapering which makes for a shelf filter. In the case of this 8th order filter, the maximum cut of the shelf is about 8dB as seen between the two curves at 120Hz, with about 4dB of cut around 80Hz. A 100Hz setting makes for about 1/2 those cut values on a similar shape shelf filter.

In many cases, this helps allow for the amped up bass setting while better tapering and transitioning back to the main speakers.

As I and others have posted, this is simply a matter of final "seasoning to taste" in the same manner we might give a modest or aggressive rise to the subwoofer response itself.

Thanks for pointing that out Mark, I am with you there...but does making a change from 120 to 80hz actually make an audible difference? I guess that is up to the end user whether they can actually tell or not?

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post #15845 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Oh man.. unbelievable!!

The thought never occured to me that it would be in 2:35:1- YES!!!



Here's a pic, 158 inches diagonal - seriously, it was like being at the concert from my front row couch, this pic is from the 2nd row:








As incredible as the picture was it paled in comparison to the sound! My god the sound!!

I loved it in the theater, but JTR's for the win!! I was told this morning that I had the volume too loud - that NEVER happens, usually my wife doesn't hear anything - or it doesn't bother her anyway. When people say metal can't sound good, I'll just pop in this disk. Unreal. The theater did beat my room for 3D, I don't have that yet and the 3D was really well done in the theater.


However, I did get frustrated while watching. When I would get up and move around the room the bass went from tight and dialed in to bloaty and crappy as I moved around the room. Of course I knew this was already the case to a certain extent and have measurments from all the seats that show how much the freq changes. However, it was never as evident to me as it was last night.


So..... frustration with uneven bass + snow day + a few too many phone calls to Archaea trying to figure out the inuke = tearing my room apart to experiment with sub placement. Right now i have subs as end tables, subs stacked by the bathroom and 4 subs up front.

Lots more experimenting to do.... good thing schools already been cancelled tomorrow.














Oh yeah, Dave in answer to your question:






smile.gif

Carp, I just watched Dream Theater/Luna Park. Great disc but everything is gonna pale in comparison audio wise to Through the Never lol. I thought they recorded LaBrie's vocals a tad harsh. I also didn't realize Portnoy was no longer playing with them...but Mangini is something special too. Is Portnoy fully with Adrenaline Mob after the Avenged album and tour?.........or is he doing a bunch of different things?

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post #15846 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

He emailed me yesterday and said he was done with my upgrades and would be shipping out today. If I didn't get tracking numbers does that mean he didn't ship them out?

I am not sure anybody can answer that but Jeff. My guess is if you didn't get a tracking number e-mailed he didn't end up shipping them out today but that is just a guess.
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post #15847 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 07:17 PM
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I'm reading this thread from about the time the Noesis speakers were introduced until current and am currently at page 400 (but have also been reading from mid January on). I see a few of you mentioning that you are using mid bass modules (MBM's). Carp using the HSU and others DIY. How are you integrating them into your system? I am expecting 228 LCR's next week. I am upgrading for a variety of reasons, one of which is my mid bass sucks with my current speakers and I have to run my 3 Triax's crossed over at 150. The way the internal crossovers are set in my current front 3, I have 2 - 5.25 inch drivers per speaker handling most of the mid bass. I am hoping the 228's solve this. If not, I was thinking of adding 2 of the HSU MBM's up front. Actually two would make an excellent center channel stand. I am not sure how I would integrate them into my system though if needed. All of the sub outs on my denon 4311 are taken by my Triax subs. I could run the speaker wires to the MBM's and then to the speakers, but I am not sure they would be able to keep up with the 228's or if this would even work.

I can't wait for these 228's. I am watching Dream Theaters Live at Budokan and it isn't anything impressive. My center just isn't cutting it. Bass sounds amazing though

Thanks
Ray

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post #15848 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I am not sure anybody can answer that but Jeff. My guess is if you didn't get a tracking number e-mailed he didn't end up shipping them out today but that is just a guess.

On one of my orders, I got the tracking numbers the day after they shipped.
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post #15849 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 08:35 PM
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Just ordered Omnimic, figured even if I wanted to use REW I should be able to use that mic for it. Thanks.
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post #15850 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casperslide2004 View Post

Just ordered Omnimic, figured even if I wanted to use REW I should be able to use that mic for it. Thanks.

It's a great tool, you'll be glad to have it!!

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post #15851 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

I think the exact answer is relative to what kind of tech savvy guy are you and what are you willing to put up with/learn to get proper real measurements. Omnimic is basically plug and play but essentially you will just get FR response. Our systems are much more than a line. What is happening in the time domain is more important. REW gives you waterfall and spectrogram graphs to analyze and see improvements with speaker/sub placement and the addition of room treatments. You will need a mic and thats it. There is a bit of a setup learning curve but is not very hard depending on your ability to learn new software that is foreign at first

Omnimic has every measurement capability necessary to optimize and setup a system in the time domain, waterfalls, polars, you name it. REW has some bells and whistles you won't get with Omnimic, but Omnimic is a robust measuring system that has everything necessary for a professional level system optimization.

I have both and do not find Omnimic lacking.

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post #15852 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Omnimic has every measurement capability necessary to optimize and setup a system in the time domain, waterfalls, polars, you name it. REW has some bells and whistles you won't get with Omnimic, but Omnimic is a robust measuring system that has everything necessary for a professional level system optimization.

I have both and do not find Omnimic lacking.


Other than running track 2,6, and 12 (frequency sweeps) and using the spl meter I don't know how to use anything else.

You say you can optimize the time domain, how do you do that? Bass decay tab? No idea how to use that. I've been playing with sub placement the last couple days and the only thing I know to do is run the sweeps and tweak distance settings on my minidsp to smooth the response on the graph. What else should I be doing on the omni?
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post #15853 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I'm reading this thread from about the time the Noesis speakers were introduced until current and am currently at page 400 (but have also been reading from mid January on). I see a few of you mentioning that you are using mid bass modules (MBM's). Carp using the HSU and others DIY. How are you integrating them into your system? I am expecting 228 LCR's next week. I am upgrading for a variety of reasons, one of which is my mid bass sucks with my current speakers and I have to run my 3 Triax's crossed over at 150. The way the internal crossovers are set in my current front 3, I have 2 - 5.25 inch drivers per speaker handling most of the mid bass. I am hoping the 228's solve this. If not, I was thinking of adding 2 of the HSU MBM's up front. Actually two would make an excellent center channel stand. I am not sure how I would integrate them into my system though if needed. All of the sub outs on my denon 4311 are taken by my Triax subs. I could run the speaker wires to the MBM's and then to the speakers, but I am not sure they would be able to keep up with the 228's or if this would even work.

I can't wait for these 228's. I am watching Dream Theaters Live at Budokan and it isn't anything impressive. My center just isn't cutting it. Bass sounds amazing though

Thanks
Ray

The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....

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post #15854 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

Carp, I just watched Dream Theater/Luna Park. Great disc but everything is gonna pale in comparison audio wise to Through the Never lol. I thought they recorded LaBrie's vocals a tad harsh. I also didn't realize Portnoy was no longer playing with them...but Mangini is something special too. Is Portnoy fully with Adrenaline Mob after the Avenged album and tour?.........or is he doing a bunch of different things?


I haven't bought the DT disk yet, like you are saying I heard the audio isn't as good as on some of their other concert disks. I don't know what Portnoy is doing now, I have a feeling he'll eventually be back with DT. It's weird though, as much as I like his drumming I felt like the last 2 albums overall were an improvement over the few before when he was still in the band.
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post #15855 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:09 PM
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The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....


I wish they could combine the overall sound quality on Budokan with the vocals on Score. I thought Labrie was flat A LOT on Budakon and spot on for Score - but with Score the rest of the music seems flat.

I go back and forth, but usually I end up with 2.1 for concerts - I kept it 5.1 for the new Metallica though. So well done.... did I say that already? tongue.gifbiggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Other than running track 2,6, and 12 (frequency sweeps) and using the spl meter I don't know how to use anything else.

You say you can optimize the time domain, how do you do that? Bass decay tab? No idea how to use that. I've been playing with sub placement the last couple days and the only thing I know to do is run the sweeps and tweak distance settings on my minidsp to smooth the response on the graph. What else should I be doing on the omni?

Omnimic has a good manual that explains what a measurement is and usually how to apply it.

The time domain functions are most helpful in guiding room treatments and speaker/sub positioning.

As to the bass decay tab, it is essentially a waterfall plot of the bass frequencies, presented in a different format than the classic waterfall, that helps to find the best sub positions for good frequency response and "tight" bass - meaning least overhang or ringing. Also, by selecting the advanced tab you can generate classic waterfall graphs from the frequency response tab.

Using Rt60 and ETC data can help guide room treatment placement.

There's other stuff too, like using impulse response to precisely place the speakers exactly the same acoustic distance from the MLP.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
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post #15857 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:46 PM
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full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s
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post #15858 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Omnimic has a good manual that explains what a measurement is and usually how to apply it.

The time domain functions are most helpful in guiding room treatments and speaker/sub positioning.

As to the bass decay tab, it is essentially a waterfall plot of the bass frequencies, presented in a different format than the classic waterfall, that helps to find the best sub positions for good frequency response and "tight" bass - meaning least overhang or ringing. Also, by selecting the advanced tab you can generate classic waterfall graphs from the frequency response tab.

Using Rt60 and ETC data can help guide room treatment placement.

There's other stuff too, like using impulse response to precisely place the speakers exactly the same acoustic distance from the MLP.



Thanks, I've got lots of reading to do - I think I'm allergic to reading manuals but I really need to make an exception this time.
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post #15859 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s

That Cap S2 looks awesome with that veneer, bummer on the Slant 8 not being completely veneered.

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post #15860 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:51 PM
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OMG, having that slant 8 on the S2 like that would put my OCD into full blown panic mode hahahahaha SCRATCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyways, they look awesome!!!! Not sure why anyone would care about the back of the slant 8 not being veneered, They will be on the wall and completely unseen....

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post #15861 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 09:53 PM
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Beautiful!! I hope you get the slanted 8's taken care of.
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post #15862 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 10:18 PM
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OMG, having that slant 8 on the S2 like that would put my OCD into full blown panic mode hahahahaha SCRATCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyways, they look awesome!!!! Not sure why anyone would care about the back of the slant 8 not being veneered, They will be on the wall and completely unseen....

problem is that mine are ceiling mounted, have to figure out how to rig them properly. I mean i did ask if jeff could put in some sort of fly point on the top of the speaker for ceiling mounting, never got a reply on that. Ceiling mounted in a open room where the entire right side and back side are open layout means that i see the backs of 3 of my speakers when walking towards the room. Not sure if i'm just picky, but these slanted 8s cost $1050 each before discounts

veneer on the s2 was a steal at 300 bucks, the veneer on the slanted 8s cost 150 each.

seems that one of my power cables is a 2 prong schuko also!
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post #15863 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 10:22 PM
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full range speakers?

impressive until you see the back of the slanted8s
Are you mounting them away from the wall where the back will be seen?
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post #15864 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 10:25 PM
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Are you mounting them away from the wall where the back will be seen?

they are all mounted slightly away from the wall
3 of them will be in your face with the back side, the only guy that has ever seen my room is gorilla83 and sandbagger, probably a face palm moment if they ever see these in person hah.
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post #15865 of 22453 Old 02-05-2014, 10:26 PM
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old picture of my room, the slanted 8s will be mounted directly to the joists above, when i figure out the mounting, but in the same approximate locations.

this was back when i had quintuples and triple 8s for my front stage
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post #15866 of 22453 Old 02-06-2014, 03:33 AM
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problem is that mine are ceiling mounted, have to figure out how to rig them properly. I mean i did ask if jeff could put in some sort of fly point on the top of the speaker for ceiling mounting, never got a reply on that. Ceiling mounted in a open room where the entire right side and back side are open layout means that i see the backs of 3 of my speakers when walking towards the room. Not sure if i'm just picky, but these slanted 8s cost $1050 each before discounts

veneer on the s2 was a steal at 300 bucks, the veneer on the slanted 8s cost 150 each.

seems that one of my power cables is a 2 prong schuko also!

I bet pictures don't do the veneer justice.

I have never seen a speaker not have the same finish on all sides, but maybe that's how Jeff veneers all of his s8, if ever. If I could see the back day to day, it would bug me crazy. Definitely call him. I'm sure he'll make it right.

speakers for sale: Elemental Designs Cinema 6 eD6c ~ bookshelf horn speakers
my speakers: jtr 212ht lcr, 8lp surrounds, dual orbit shifters
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post #15867 of 22453 Old 02-06-2014, 03:47 AM
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Not saying it makes it right, but my guess is Jeff assumed all slanted 8s are mounted flush to the wall and would just scratch the heck out of the veneer from mounting and removing. In that scenario, the standard finish is much more durable and would hold up mush better against potential sratches.
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post #15868 of 22453 Old 02-06-2014, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post



old picture of my room, the slanted 8s will be mounted directly to the joists above, when i figure out the mounting, but in the same approximate locations.

this was back when i had quintuples and triple 8s for my front stage

Just a suggestion. Have you considered hanging a black/dark color velvet curtain trim from the ceiling to just behind and down to bottom of equipment level? I think it would help hide everything protruding from the ceiling.

Another thing I would consider is installing a ceiling curtain track that ran from back and just along the right out side of the room...Similar to the ones you see around individual hospital beds. Hang a full height blackout velvet curtain and you could bring it out from the left wall just to cover the back of space or all the way to close off the room for more light control. Depending on thickness of the curtain, probably help a bit with the sound too.

Both of the above could be done with ceiling tracks which either curtain size could slide on.

speakers for sale: Elemental Designs Cinema 6 eD6c ~ bookshelf horn speakers
my speakers: jtr 212ht lcr, 8lp surrounds, dual orbit shifters
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post #15869 of 22453 Old 02-06-2014, 04:04 AM
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The center image on that disc is pretty bad to begin with. Good disc, terrible vocals. There are ways to get around it, its called 2.0 pcm.... Sorry, but i am biased when it comes to concert disks.... It is tough to find good ones in more than stereo. Even the ones I have I still love to run them in 2.0 Call me a purist, but if you want to watch a CONCERT cd, you should watch as if all the music is coming from the stage, AKA, stereo....

I like the immersion of music concerts with surrounds, but hearing all the vocals come from the center is just unnatural to me. I always end up watching in stereo as well.

speakers for sale: Elemental Designs Cinema 6 eD6c ~ bookshelf horn speakers
my speakers: jtr 212ht lcr, 8lp surrounds, dual orbit shifters
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post #15870 of 22453 Old 02-06-2014, 04:07 AM
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I like the immersion of music concerts with surrounds, but hearing all the vocals come from the center is just unnatural to me. I always end up watching in stereo as well.

I am the opposite. I own a handful of blu ray concert blu rays and just enjoy the 5.1 mix more. I am not a huge music guy compared to some folks on this thread but the 5.1 mix just sounds much more immersive to my ears. When I switch back and forth the stereo mix sounds flat in comparison. The Dave Matthews blu ray is unreal in 5.1...one of the best recordigns I have ever heard.
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