Official JTR speaker thread - Page 538 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 5975Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-10-2014, 04:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pain Infliction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 968 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

12 spoke basket? Who makes the drivers?

16 gauge huh? And here I am worrying about using 10 gauge AWG!rolleyes.gif

Jeff makes them wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

It's all about length. I learned that when i was young biggrin.gif.

hahaha

The Thompson Theater


RIP William Alexander
Pain Infliction is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-10-2014, 04:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 8,902
Mentioned: 281 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2127 Post(s)
Liked: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

12 spoke basket? Who makes the drivers?

16 gauge huh? And here I am worrying about using 10 gauge AWG!rolleyes.gif

It's all about length. I learned that when i was young biggrin.gif.

Except you gotta give him more than that nugget to make it less of a joke and more understandable.

It's about length and resistance rating (ohms)

The distance from your AVR/amp to a set of passive subs across the room might require a heavier gauge wire, but smaller gauge wire can transmit a LOT of wattage for short distances. For the purposes of the speakerpower amp which is IMMEDIATELY next to the drivers - you could use pretty small gauge and have no adverse effects.

Take a look at this chart.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
Archaea is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 05:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KevinH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,044
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

12 spoke basket? Who makes the drivers?

16 gauge huh? And here I am worrying about using 10 gauge AWG!rolleyes.gif

I thought Fe made the drivers.....unless he has switched OEMs??

-Kevin
Epson 5020UB 1080p 3LCD projector/GIK Acoustic room treatments
Screen Innovations Black Diamond Zero Edge 1.4 110" 16:9
Marantz AV7702mkii pre-pro/Wyred4Sound 5-channel amp
Oppo BDP-105/Darbee Darblet
JTR 3TX LCRs/Single8 HT-LP surrounds/twin JTR Orbit Shifter LF subwoofers
KevinH is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 05:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,928
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 801 Post(s)
Liked: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

It's all about length. I learned that when i was young biggrin.gif.

The requirement for length is inversely proportional to the amount of alcohol consumed....learned that when I was young.tongue.gifwink.gif
Frohlich is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 05:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,599
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1831 Post(s)
Liked: 1332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Except you gotta give him more than that nugget to make it less of a joke and more understandable.

It's about length and resistance rating (ohms)

The distance from your AVR/amp to a set of passive subs across the room might require a heavier gauge wire, but smaller gauge wire can transmit a LOT of wattage for short distances. For the purposes of the speakerpower amp which is IMMEDIATELY next to the drivers - you could use pretty small gauge and have no adverse effects.

Take a look at this chart.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable



Yep. This is good too since you can put in your own numbers.

http://www.bcae1.com/images/swfs/speakerwireselectorassistant.swf

I bought 14 guage for my back wall subs since I would lose less than .5 of a decibel. I'm so sick of dealing with 10 guage wire and why mess with it if I don't need it.
carp is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 06:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cape May, NJ (South Jersey)
Posts: 4,154
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1391 Post(s)
Liked: 908
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

12 spoke basket? Who makes the drivers?

16 gauge huh? And here I am worrying about using 10 gauge AWG!rolleyes.gif
Man I wanted a pair of S2's so bad and almost had em. The deal I got for my Triax's was a no brainer. Those drivers in the S2 look similar to the original drivers that were supposed to go in the Triax. Never did catch the name of manufacture of them, I am wondering if they are the same. The newer revised Fi drivers added 40 lbs to the Triax's final design.
Reefdvr27 is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 06:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Pain Infliction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 968 Post(s)
Liked: 480
And those triax drivers looks identical to the seaton drivers.

The Thompson Theater


RIP William Alexander
Pain Infliction is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 08:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 831 Post(s)
Liked: 378
I've been listening to music for a few hours now. And I really hate the 212s...I'm going to have to dig out all of my CDs from the past 25 years and find HQ mp3s/flacs. They are exposing any badly ripped track, stream, or recording. This is madness.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
asoofi1 is offline  
Old 02-10-2014, 09:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,586
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked: 679
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I've been listening to music for a few hours now. And I really hate the 212s...I'm going to have to dig out all of my CDs from the past 25 years and find HQ mp3s/flacs. They are exposing any badly ripped track, stream, or recording. This is madness.

LOL, and man oh man, there are some horrible recordings! I don't find much older music sounds good, some is ok of course but blah. Pretty much any new aged dub or anything like that sounds awesome though!

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 12:50 AM
Member
 
thecloneranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 43

hey guys been reading bout jtr and his subs and was wanting to get one. my options right now are a svs pb ultra or a capacitor 2400. i like what im reading about both subs. im about 100 % ht guy what would be the better choice?


Epson 5030ub,Onkyo 818,Samsung bd player,Xbox One,Ibuypower gaming pc
Ascend Acoustics sierra 2s l/r,Ascend Acoustics horizon center w/raal upgrade
Ascend Acoustics cbm 170 x4 surround duty,PSA dual s3000i
thecloneranger is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 05:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
countryWV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Huntington West Virginia
Posts: 1,857
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecloneranger View Post

hey guys been reading bout jtr and his subs and was wanting to get one. my options right now are a svs pb ultra or a capacitor 2400. i like what im reading about both subs. im about 100 % ht guy what would be the better choice?
Realistically it's not an apples to apples comparison. The PB Ultra is a very nice subwoofer that does exceptionally well considering the Driver is only 13.5 inches. The Cap2400 with its 69lb 18" driver is just that much more capable. The Ultra has a Sledge/ Bash amp while the Cap has a Speakepower 2400wpc amp.
With the differences in the amp and driver the Ultra does not have a chance from the performance aspect. Jeff (JTR) can also sell his products with less profit margin so dollar to dollar the Cap comes out on top again.
There are some on this thread who have owned both so they may add something to the comparison.
Good Luck
Chris

Chris
countryWV is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 06:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Pain Infliction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 968 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Archaea could answer this really well I bet, but countryWV is correct. I other words, the Captivator 2400 should smash the Ultra.

The Thompson Theater


RIP William Alexander
Pain Infliction is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 06:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,928
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 801 Post(s)
Liked: 659
Ok, sorry to go off topic and I am usually not a pessimistic kind of guy...but this might not be good.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/scary-1929-market-chart-gains-traction-2014-02-11?dist=beforebell
Frohlich is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 06:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Pain Infliction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 968 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Ya, seems like history repeats itself. I hope it goes back up because 2008 until recent has been hard on the economy!

The Thompson Theater


RIP William Alexander
Pain Infliction is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 07:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
7channelfreak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: North Houston
Posts: 946
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 254 Post(s)
Liked: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecloneranger View Post

hey guys been reading bout jtr and his subs and was wanting to get one. my options right now are a svs pb ultra or a capacitor 2400. i like what im reading about both subs. im about 100 % ht guy what would be the better choice?

I use to own two of the PB13 Ultras with the previous generation Def Tech speakers. They are really nice subs but the Caps are just that much better. I had Jeff Meier over a couple of weeks ago and he said Jeff is the King of Subs. He said he's never had an issue integrating a JTR in to a system. Said he recommends them all the time. I haven't had a ton of time with my S2 but I can tell you without hesitation, get the JTR.
7channelfreak is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 08:20 AM
AVS Special Member
 
countryWV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Huntington West Virginia
Posts: 1,857
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Ok, sorry to go off topic and I am usually not a pessimistic kind of guy...but this might not be good.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/scary-1929-market-chart-gains-traction-2014-02-11?dist=beforebell
We have not hit rock bottom yet. It will get worse before it gets better. The ones who can do something about it are caught up in Pettiness while the ones who can't (middle class) pay the price.

It is as simple to see as 2+2=4 yet it still goes completely ignored overshadowed by social issues. Rome is burning while we are mesmerized by the flames.
Chris.

Chris
countryWV is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,855
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
QE forever! What could possibly go wrong with boatloads of free government money?
Gooddoc is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 09:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,928
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 801 Post(s)
Liked: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

QE forever! What could possibly go wrong with boatloads of free government money?

As you know, QE is the money faucet...turn it off and the market goes KABOOOM!!!!...it might go KABOOOM all on its own as people realize the market gains over the last 5 years are largely artificial smile.gif
Frohlich is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 09:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,855
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

As you know, QE is the money faucet...turn it off and the market goes KABOOOM!!!!...it might go KABOOOM all on its own as people realize the market gains over the last 5 years are largely artificial smile.gif

Yes, but the sheeple will believe the government and talking heads that it is free markets and businesses that are the cause, and more government control/intervention will ensue. For the good of the sheeple, of course. smile.gif

Having said that, political discourse is generally frowned upon around here since there is always someone with an entirely opposing viewpoint that will get feathers ruffled. biggrin.gif

So I'm going to get back to talking speakers. wink.gif

I saw the Lego Movie last night at the theater. Good sound for a regular non-Imax theater. Now I have to have a talk with my kids about the main villian of the story, the evil Lord Business...rolleyes.gif
Gooddoc is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 09:41 AM
FOH
AVS Special Member
 
FOH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,791
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked: 228
Hell, I can't even spell QE ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

It's no different than a wall behind me

Right, this is what I'm pointing out.

The reason I mention it, my non-dedicated HT is open to a kitchen space behind the LP, and I can hear a difference when LCR energy reflects off shipping boxes stacked on the normally empty countertop behind my seating.

I like the diffuse, multi-angular surfaces that make up the kitchen, but have learned the significance of returns off some surfaces can be detrimental spatially.

------------------------------------
Flat, Deep, Clean, Linear, and Loud
------------------------------------
Active 16.8kw, 7.3 system
(3)Seaton Cat12C up front, (4)QSC K8 sides/rears
(2)Seaton SubM-HP, (4)18" IB
FOH is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 10:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 831 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecloneranger View Post

hey guys been reading bout jtr and his subs and was wanting to get one. my options right now are a svs pb ultra or a capacitor 2400. i like what im reading about both subs. im about 100 % ht guy what would be the better choice?

Get the 2400. And if possible now, or later, get two to balance out the bass...once you hear/experience how two subs improve the movie watching experience, you'll never be able to live with just one. You will save good money if you buy both at the same time, with any discounts & shipping once.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
asoofi1 is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 10:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 831 Post(s)
Liked: 378
I reran Audyssey and measured 6 location points, per manual which I finally read last night. I'm guilty of trying to measure only one location, which is the MLP and thinking Audyssey should be able to figure it out and it won't make a difference...but it sounds so much better now to me. Huge improvement. So if you're just measuring like I did for one MLP, give it a try and see how it works for you...it does take longer, but worth it imo. Here's the measuring pattern I used since sr7008 manual didn't give a sequence order and just points for one MLP:
4 5 6
3 1 2
(1 being MLP and I kept about 3 ft displacement between points)

Even though I set the shifters +1 on sub, Audyssey set it to -12dB and I just raised the levels on avr to my liking, which is +1dB.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
asoofi1 is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 11:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,855
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
A minimum of 13 dB over reference? If I hadn't spent a lot of time on this thread I would tell you to run Audyssey again since you must have a bad cal run. But I know the bass heads love crazy hot bass, so I'll just say I'm glad you have it where you like it. That is all that matters. biggrin.gif

Edit: I'm curious, have you measured your room post cal?
Gooddoc is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 12:31 PM
Member
 
thecloneranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Thanks for all the input guys

Epson 5030ub,Onkyo 818,Samsung bd player,Xbox One,Ibuypower gaming pc
Ascend Acoustics sierra 2s l/r,Ascend Acoustics horizon center w/raal upgrade
Ascend Acoustics cbm 170 x4 surround duty,PSA dual s3000i
thecloneranger is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 12:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 831 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

A minimum of 13 dB over reference? If I hadn't spent a lot of time on this thread I would tell you to run Audyssey again since you must have a bad cal run. But I know the bass heads love crazy hot bass, so I'll just say I'm glad you have it where you like it. That is all that matters. biggrin.gif

I know what you mean. I think after I put in some treatments and bass traps, I may not even have to run it that hot. Also, right now I have both shifters corner loaded, so still playing with placement and seeing what sounds/feels good. The entire house quakes nonetheless...bass out of the shifters is so clean, tight, and powerful, its scary.

PopaArchaeasSocket Austin is planning to come by today, so we're going to try to get some measurements.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
asoofi1 is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 01:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,855
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I know what you mean. I think after I put in some treatments and bass traps, I may not even have to run it that hot. Also, right now I have both shifters corner loaded, so still playing with placement and seeing what sounds/feels good. The entire house quakes nonetheless...bass out of the shifters is so clean, tight, and powerful, its scary.

PopaArchaeasSocket Austin is planning to come by today, so we're going to try to get some measurements.

Great plan. A lot of things could be happening with your FR that makes you feel like you need to raise it so high. Corner loading both subs may increase output, but may not give best FR. For instance, in my room I can only get away with corner loading one sub for best response across all seats. But every room is different, so there's no alternative to measurements.
Gooddoc is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 01:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
N8DOGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,586
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked: 679
also, there could be some serious cancellation issues as well. Even I dont run my bass that hot! lol

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

N8DOGG is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 01:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: South Riding, VA
Posts: 1,588
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 831 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Haha...don't worry, I've pulled it back some. I was pushing it for a couple of scenes, but have it at +6dB over ref right now. But I saw WOW scene at prior setting of +12 over Audyssey's reference, and man, I thought house was collapsing.

---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
asoofi1 is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,855
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1747 Post(s)
Liked: 1030
Also, just a few rules I accumulated along the way after many fruitless multiple sub optimization attempts.

A common mistake is to move the subs around trying to get a ruler flat pre-EQ response across your seating. In my experience it will only lead to frustration and at least one "bad" seat when you're done. Instead, the goal should be to optimize the FR for the EQ that will follow. Which means a goal of the same non - flat FR across all seats. The primary objective being eliminating nulls, even if that produces significant peaks. If the peaks are the same across all seats, EQ will smash them flat.

Bottom line is optimize for the EQ which works best on problems that are the same everywhere, and eliminate nulls that EQ can do nothing about.

It took me a fairly long time to figure that out, although when I write it, it seems so obvious. smile.gif
Bunga99 likes this.
Gooddoc is offline  
Old 02-11-2014, 02:32 PM
a|F
Member
 
a|F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Earlier, a couple guys mentioned Trinnov and Dirac. Anyone contemplating the new Emotiva pre/pro with Dirac?

http://shop.emotiva.com/products/xmc1

I realize that Trinnov > Audyssey, but how does Dirac compare?
a|F is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Tags
215RT , 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off