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Old 02-18-2014, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

Hey all!  I'm not sure where this is appropriate to post, but I also posted this in the receiver/amp forum.

I'm in the process of building a dedicated home theater room exclusively focused on watching movies.

My room will be as follows:
  • "Optimal" rectangular shape
    • I am finishing my basement from scratch and have set the room dimensions to 22' long by 14' wide by 8' tall (I have 9' ceilings now and accounting for a 1' loss from a drop ceiling)
  • My main listening position will be approximately 10-12' to achieve a viewing angle of ~36 degrees.

I plan on using the following loudspeakers:
  • Front Left/Right: JTR Noesis 228HT
    • A follow-up question on these: Would I regret not going to the 212 for movies only?
  • Center: JTR Noesis 228HT
  • Surround Left/Right: JTR Slanted S8
  • Back Left/Right: JTR S8HT-LP
  • Subwoofers: JTR Captivator 1000 x 2
    • Will be room be pressurized to an adequate level using just these?  Would the 2400 service my room size better?

I've already decided (could be persuaded) that I want an Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + SubEQ HT.  And have been looking at the Denon X4000 or 4520CI for use as a preamp only.  If I'm only planning on using the Denon as a preamp, is there any apprecible difference between the two models I listed that would significantly impact my listening/viewing experience?  Are there other models that have the Audyssey type listed above that would provide a better fit?

In regards to the power amp, I'm leaning towards getting an Emotiva XPA-3 for the front ensemble of speakers and an Emotiva UPA-700 for the remaining surround speakers.  I understand that the speakers are high sensitivity and are unlikely to require this amount of power.  However I'm separating out my money to allow me to upgrade (if I want later) the various parts and not have to replace the entire electronics setup.

Any input or comments would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Even though the 4520 and the x4000 both have audyssey xt32, I heard that the 4520's xt32 is better for some reason?? I read that hear on this site. If you ever want to go 11 channels, get the 4520. I have it with both of the amps listed but not the JTR speakers you want to get. I agree with the others about the cap 2400 over the cap1000. I went the diy route before as well and now I went back to a JTR S2. DIY is most bang for your buck IF you already have the tools and skills to do it.

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

Hey all!  I'm not sure where this is appropriate to post, but I also posted this in the receiver/amp forum.

I'm in the process of building a dedicated home theater room exclusively focused on watching movies.

My room will be as follows:
  • "Optimal" rectangular shape
    • I am finishing my basement from scratch and have set the room dimensions to 22' long by 14' wide by 8' tall (I have 9' ceilings now and accounting for a 1' loss from a drop ceiling)
  • My main listening position will be approximately 10-12' to achieve a viewing angle of ~36 degrees.

I plan on using the following loudspeakers:
  • Front Left/Right: JTR Noesis 228HT
    • A follow-up question on these: Would I regret not going to the 212 for movies only?
  • Center: JTR Noesis 228HT
  • Surround Left/Right: JTR Slanted S8
  • Back Left/Right: JTR S8HT-LP
  • Subwoofers: JTR Captivator 1000 x 2
    • Will be room be pressurized to an adequate level using just these?  Would the 2400 service my room size better?

I've already decided (could be persuaded) that I want an Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + SubEQ HT.  And have been looking at the Denon X4000 or 4520CI for use as a preamp only.  If I'm only planning on using the Denon as a preamp, is there any apprecible difference between the two models I listed that would significantly impact my listening/viewing experience?  Are there other models that have the Audyssey type listed above that would provide a better fit?

In regards to the power amp, I'm leaning towards getting an Emotiva XPA-3 for the front ensemble of speakers and an Emotiva UPA-700 for the remaining surround speakers.  I understand that the speakers are high sensitivity and are unlikely to require this amount of power.  However I'm separating out my money to allow me to upgrade (if I want later) the various parts and not have to replace the entire electronics setup.

Any input or comments would be appreciated!

Thanks!

I like your audio choices and might also push you toward the Cap 2400. Wanting more from the subwoofer system drives many upgrades and with a pair of 2400's, you will have more great bass than anyone needs.

You mentioned nothing about the video side and I would suggest that for a movie priority, dedicated space a front projection system with an acoustically transparent screen is a must have. Add some good powered HT seats and you are all set for what will be the best movie experience(s) of your life ... cool.gif

Good luck and be sure and post pictures of the room/install.

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

Thanks to both of you for the responses!

Is there some sort of rule of thumb for the subwoofer watts per cubic foot of room?  If not, that's fine, just trying to better grasp the Captivator 2400 recommendation compared to the 1000.  Though I guess one can never have too much bass right? tongue.gif  


I would suggest the same as RMK, if you can go with an AT screen. But I still suggest building your own subs if you have the tools and skills too. You can easily get the same amount of bass as a Cap 2400 for way less money. A year ago I would have suggested going with the Cap 2400, and if you aren't great with building things I still think its a great option. But if you have the ability too go DIY for your subs.

A Cap 2400 is $2600. For less money you can build two cabinets like this




Pick up two UXL-18 drivers and a single inuke 6000DSP amp to power both for less then 2 grand, and have just as much bass at two Cap 2400's or more.

Many in this JTR thread have gone DIY and can tell you the same thing that I'm saying.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Even though the 4520 and the x4000 both have audyssey xt32, I heard that the 4520's xt32 is better for some reason?? I read that hear on this site. If you ever want to go 11 channels, get the 4520. I have it with both of the amps listed but not the JTR speakers you want to get. I agree with the others about the cap 2400 over the cap1000. I went the diy route before as well and now I went back to a JTR S2. DIY is most bang for your buck IF you already have the tools and skills to do it.

Does the X4000 really have a different XT32 and sub EQ over the 4520? I'm thinking a new AVR will be in the cards for this year and I'm trying to decide on this too. I'm also considering a Anthem MRX receiver.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:45 PM
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Don't listen to RMK and JBrown15 about AT screens…they are the devils work!!! (Inside joke…AT screens are fine). Your proposed set-up looks great. I would also echo that XT32 is XT32…one implementation is not better than the other. Now one receiver might have better parts (Amps, DACs,etc..) or more bells and whistles but the XT32 will be the same.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Hmmm, I may find some 6's or 10's and give them a try

do you have hiss also?

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Old 02-18-2014, 04:55 PM
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do you have hiss also?

Hey Chris, hope the new speakers are working out well. I took a little extended weekend with the wife and kids down south and thought I would check in since I haven't talked to you since last week. Hope everything is to your liking.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

TBD ... smile.gif

I think you'll have enough potential bass output. cool.gif Whether those bass sources are in the best place to optimize that output is the only TBD that I see. Also, maximizing that bass output will require substantial amplifier power at those near 20 Hz frequencies. What amp are you planning to power those monsters? Has Jeff indicated the anticipated power handling capability yet?
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Hey Chris, hope the new speakers are working out well. I took a little extended weekend with the wife and kids down south and thought I would check in since I haven't talked to you since last week. Hope everything is to your liking.

Yep! Such a big step up in dynamics and clarity over my polk Rtia9s I had. And the sound stage is huge with these. I don't even have surrounds at the moment but still enjoying the new sound.
Thanks again

Denon x4200,Samsung 4k TV,
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I've alrca's decided (could be persuaded) that I want an Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + SubEQ HT.  And have been looking at the Denon X4000 or 4520CI for use as a preamp only.  If I'm only planning on using the Denon as a preamp, is there any apprecible difference between the two models I listed that would significantly impact my listening/viewing experience?  Are there other models that have the Audyssey type listed above that would provide a better fit?

In regards to the power amp, I'm leaning towards getting an Emotiva XPA-3 for the front ensemble of speakers and an Emotiva UPA-700 for the remaining surround speakers

I think you've had a lot of good advice from everyone. Just to add some, if I were buying a processor and amps from scratch I would buy a prepro with XLR's. There are certainly varying opinions on this, but I hear far more complaints about hiss with rca's than balanced connections.
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I think you'll have enough potential bass output. cool.gif Whether those bass sources are in the best place to optimize that output is the only TBD that I see. Also, maximizing that bass output will require substantial amplifier power at those near 20 Hz frequencies. What amp are you planning to power those monsters? Has Jeff indicated the anticipated power handling capability yet?

There are several potential problems (like those you identified ^). I'm going to try using the Wyred amp and see how is goes (or doesn't). I'm not looking for 125db (good thing tongue.gif). but I am used to a certain level of performance. Will course adjust as necessary. smile.gif

Jeff is on the third version of the 215T woofer. He keeps tweaking the design and that is good but may push the GTG deadline...

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Old 02-18-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I think you've had a lot of good advice from everyone. Just to add some, if I were buying a processor and amps from scratch I would buy a prepro with XLR's. There are certainly varying opinions on this, but I hear far more complaints about hiss with rca's than balanced connections.

Isn't it true though that a lot of the pre/pro's with XLR's aren't even a true balanced connector inside of the AVR?
For example I thought someone had said that a Marantz AV7701 and AV8801 don't have true balanced XLR's.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


I think you've had a lot of good advice from everyone. Just to add some, if I were buying a processor and amps from scratch I would buy a prepro with XLR's. There are certainly varying opinions on this, but I hear far more complaints about hiss with rca's than balanced connections.

 

I was considering the Emotiva Preamp (XMC-1 I think?) because it had balanced signal terminals for each channel.  However, after reading disappointing things about the Emotiva Preamps and also reading something stating that the difference between an unbalanced and balanced signal will be marginal at best.
 
The only other preamp that I looked at was the Marantz AV8801.  However this is more than I would like to spend on a preamp.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post


Even though the 4520 and the x4000 both have audyssey xt32, I heard that the 4520's xt32 is better for some reason?? I read that hear on this site. If you ever want to go 11 channels, get the 4520. I have it with both of the amps listed but not the JTR speakers you want to get. I agree with the others about the cap 2400 over the cap1000. I went the diy route before as well and now I went back to a JTR S2. DIY is most bang for your buck IF you already have the tools and skills to do it.

I don't think my room dimensions would support front wide speakers.  I do think that front heights would be possible.  Therefore I have limited my channel selection to 

 

Are the internal components on the 4520 a significant upgrade from the X4000?  DAC, amps, etc.  if they are worth (I know a relative term) the money then I would consider it.

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post


I like your audio choices and might also push you toward the Cap 2400. Wanting more from the subwoofer system drives many upgrades and with a pair of 2400's, you will have more great bass than anyone needs.

You mentioned nothing about the video side and I would suggest that for a movie priority, dedicated space a front projection system with an acoustically transparent screen is a must have. Add some good powered HT seats and you are all set for what will be the best movie experience(s) of your life ... cool.gif

Good luck and be sure and post pictures of the room/install.

The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

 

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

 

Thanks to all who responded!

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

Thanks to all who responded!
I had several screens from Elite including the EZ frame AT and I really like the Seymour XD AT better. Every screen I got from Elite always had some visible defect and although they were very small once you notice or find it you can't "un" find it. My XD screen is perfect. Just my experience and I am sure others may have had different.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I don't think my room dimensions would support front wide speakers.  I do think that front heights would be possible.  Therefore I have limited my channel selection to 

Are the internal components on the 4520 a significant upgrade from the X4000?  DAC, amps, etc.  if they are worth (I know a relative term) the money then I would consider it.

I am not sure and I am just repeating what I have read on the 4520 thread. From what I have seen people post is that the 4520 has the same internals as the Marantz. I did see somebody post about the xt32 being better but never followed up on that. I do not know how or why but that is what they said. Maybe I can go find it. Also, remember this is other people making these claims and not me.

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I had several screens from Elite including the EZ frame AT and I really like the Seymour XD AT better. Every screen I got from Elite always had some visible defect and although they were very small once you notice or find it you can't "un" find it. My XD screen is perfect. Just my experience and I am sure others may have had different.

I have the Seymour XD as well and it is a wonderful screen!

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:49 PM
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Here is what I have found so far. I still have not found the xt32 stuff


Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Wow, the X4000 sounds amazing! Is there any reason to fork over the extra coin for the 4520CI now??

While the X4000 appears to be a "baby 4520" with most of the important features, there are still some things the 4520 has that may entice people to step up to the flagship model:

1. The 4520 is larger and heavier, with a superior amp section rated to drive 4-ohm speakers.
2. The 4520 has better build quality; it's built in Japan (not China) and has higher quality speaker binding posts for example
3. The 4520 has 9 amps built in, and can expand to 11 channels (instead of 7/9 on the X4000)
4. The 4520 has 4 zones instead of 3; the HDMI Zone output is dedicated to Zone 4, leaving Zones 2/3 independent. On the X4000, the HDMI Zone output shares Zone 2.
5. The 4520 can output component video to Zones 2 and 3, meaning it's possible to distribute HD video to all 4 zones.
6. The 4520 has full 32-bit processing architecture, including 32-bit DAC's and AL32 processing (vs. the 24-bit analogues on the X4000).
7. The 4520 has more legacy (analog) input/output connectivity, including 7.1 multichannel analog inputs, and an extra component video input and output.
8. The 4520 has a built-in 4-port ethernet hub
9. The 4520 has an incredibly flexible Amp Assign configuration, including a "Custom" free assign mode which allows any reassignment of 6 out of the 9 amps. The X4000 has the standard Amp Assign template where only 2 out of the 7 amps are reassignable according to predetermined options.

That said, for most users, the X4000 will be a smarter choice and is really an amazing value, especially considering the critical additions of XT32/SubEQ calibration and the digital multizone options.

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Old 02-18-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

Thanks to all who responded!

If you want a DIY screen that you make yourself you'll want to go to SeymourAV and buy the XD screen material from them. If you want a really nice manufactured screen I really recommend the new screens from Falcon Screens. The company is about a year old, forum member Rich aka snickers1 started to manufacture his own screens and IMO they are awesome.

I had a large 2'x2' sample of the XD screen material from SeymourAV and I could see the weave pattern of the screen at around 9-10ft from the screen, and I wasn't crazy about that. With the Falcon screen material I need to be about 5-6ft away before I can't notice the weave anymore, so that's a big improvement IMO. And to top it off the Falcon screen was almost $300 less then the same size SeymourAV so that was a nice bonus.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

There are several potential problems (like those you identified ^). I'm going to try using the Wyred amp and see how is goes (or doesn't). I'm not looking for 125db (good thing tongue.gif). but I am used to a certain level of performance. Will course adjust as necessary. smile.gif

Jeff is on the third version of the 215T woofer. He keeps tweaking the design and that is good but may push the GTG deadline...

I am sure it will be an awesome speaker, Jeff doesn't know how to do less than that. Wishing you the best with the least biggrin.gif.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Isn't it true though that a lot of the pre/pro's with XLR's aren't even a true balanced connector inside of the AVR?
For example I thought someone had said that a Marantz AV7701 and AV8801 don't have true balanced XLR's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I was considering the Emotiva Preamp (XMC-1 I think?) because it had balanced signal terminals for each channel. However, after reading disappointing things about the Emotiva Preamps and also reading something stating that the difference between an unbalanced and balanced signal will be marginal at best.



The only other preamp that I looked at was the Marantz AV8801. However this is more than I would like to spend on a preamp.

True balanced is not necessary for noise rejection AFAIK. The audio SQ difference may be marginal between balanced and unbalanced, but that is not the reason I suggest balanced. It's for the simple fact that the problems with hiss almost always involve AVR unbalanced RCA pre-outs. There are exceptions, of course, but in all the time I've been hanging around these forums I've seen a very distinct pattern to this problem. Hiss and noise sucks, bigtime.

Emotiva scares me too, but I am definitely keeping a keen eye on that new processor. If they can do something they've never done before - release a relatively bug free processor - it will be a financial game changer in the world of separates.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:15 PM
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The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

Thanks to all who responded!

Another Seymour XD screen owner and I had a couple of Elites early on but never their AT models. I just installed my second larger Seymour today. Don't underestimate the value of the sound coming from the screen. It makes a big difference in the movie experience and was one of the better upgrade decisions I made in the HT.

I've had several projectors and my current Sony HW50ES is the best of the lot. Not a 4K unit but I'm not to concerned about that. My previous PJ was the top of the line JVC and again, I prefer the Sony by a good margin. That said I'm sure the Epson has a great picture too. smile.gif

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Old 02-18-2014, 07:16 PM
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True balanced is not necessary for noise rejection AFAIK. The audio SQ difference may be marginal between balanced and unbalanced, but that is not the reason I suggest balanced. It's for the simple fact that the problems with hiss almost always involve AVR unbalanced RCA pre-outs. There are exceptions, of course, but in all the time I've been hanging around these forums I've seen a very distinct pattern to this problem. Hiss and noise sucks, bigtime.

Emotiva scares me too, but I am definitely keeping a keen eye on that new processor. If they can do something they've never done before - release a relatively bug free processor - it will be a financial game changer in the world of separates.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I have had just the opposite thoughts though from what I've read about AVR's with XLR's. From everything that I've read unless you have long runs (like 50ft) there's no performance advantage over RCA's.

I wish there was someone around with that had a receiver with XLR connections to test out with my PA 7-350 to see if there was a difference.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


True balanced is not necessary for noise rejection AFAIK. The audio SQ difference may be marginal between balanced and unbalanced, but that is not the reason I suggest balanced. It's for the simple fact that the problems with hiss almost always involve AVR unbalanced RCA pre-outs. There are exceptions, of course, but in all the time I've been hanging around these forums I've seen a very distinct pattern to this problem. Hiss and noise sucks, bigtime.

Emotiva scares me too, but I am definitely keeping a keen eye on that new processor. If they can do something they've never done before - release a relatively bug free processor - it will be a financial game changer in the world of separates.

I definitely see what you're saying. It would be a real disappointment to put all the work into the setup and turn on the hiss.

Would you please provide a similarly priced (could be a bit more) that would have the XT32 with subeq and balanced terminals preamp? I'm unsure of all the manufacturers that have audyssey.

Thanks!
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Another Seymour XD screen owner and I had a couple of Elites early on but never their AT models. I just installed my second larger Seymour today. Don't underestimate the value of the sound coming from the screen. It makes a big difference in the movie experience and was one of the better upgrade decisions I made in the HT.
smile.gif

Once again I totally agree with you on this, after I switched to an AT screen I don't think I could ever go back. It just adds a totally new level of the true "home theater" feel to our setup. Even my wife has mentioned how much she likes it and typically she doesn't give a funk about most of the stuff I do to our theater.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:28 PM
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I'm not disagreeing with you, I have had just the opposite thoughts though from what I've read about AVR's with XLR's. From everything that I've read unless you have long runs (like 50ft) there's no performance advantage over RCA's.

I wish there was someone around with that had a receiver with XLR connections to test out with my PA 7-350 to see if there was a difference.
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Parts express has 15's and 20's. If you have any buddies with other amps, you should try one out and see if it's stops. Some guys have emotive and no hiss at all and that makes me believe that theres more to it than just the amps gain. Once I went from RCA's on my Denon 4311 (bad hiss) to my current integra 80.3 XLR, I have no audible hiss at all.

I have read dozens of these accounts over the years. I've not done a scientific study on it or anything like that, but I just don't read many accounts of issues with hiss or noise with balanced connections like I do with unbalanced. In fact, there are so many unbalanced complaints that I can't even remember the last time I read of someone with balanced connections having the issue. I'm sure they're out there, and perhaps I've read about someone having the issue, but I honestly can't remember it.

So yes, I've read those same things as you about no advantage, yet it seems that the vast majority of posts I've read regarding audible noise contradicts that. That's not any sort of expert opinion on the matter, but just my experience.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:37 PM
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I have read dozens of these accounts over the years. I've not done a scientific study on it or anything like that, but I just don't read many accounts of issues with hiss or noise with balanced connections like I do with unbalanced. In fact, there are so many unbalanced complaints that I can't even remember the last time I read of someone with balanced connections having the issue. I'm sure they're out there, and perhaps I've read about someone having the issue, but I honestly can't remember it.

So yes, I've read those same things as you about no advantage, yet it seems that the vast majority of posts I've read regarding audible noise contradicts that. That's not any sort of expert opinion on the matter, but just my experience.

I guess what it comes down too, is that I really need to find a way to test a AVR with balanced XLR connections on it in my setup!..lol smile.gif
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:50 PM
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I definitely see what you're saying. It would be a real disappointment to put all the work into the setup and turn on the hiss.

Would you please provide a similarly priced (could be a bit more) that would have the XT32 with subeq and balanced terminals preamp? I'm unsure of all the manufacturers that have audyssey.

Thanks!

Wish I could do that biggrin.gif. You're going to pay more for balanced and the top iteration of Audyssey. The Marantz AV7701 is a balanced prepro that is a very good value, except it has XT. But pair it with an antimode 2.0 http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml to cover your bass and I think it would be every bit as good - if not better - than Audyssey subEQ. I think the big benefit with Audyssey is in it's bass EQ and far less in the upper frequencies, particularly with controlled directivity designs and compression drivers, such as JTR speakers.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:52 PM
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I guess what it comes down too, is that I really need to find a way to test a AVR with balanced XLR connections on it in my setup!..lol smile.gif

Yea, me too biggrin.gif
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