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post #16471 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I don't think my room dimensions would support front wide speakers.  I do think that front heights would be possible.  Therefore I have limited my channel selection to 

Are the internal components on the 4520 a significant upgrade from the X4000?  DAC, amps, etc.  if they are worth (I know a relative term) the money then I would consider it.

I am not sure and I am just repeating what I have read on the 4520 thread. From what I have seen people post is that the 4520 has the same internals as the Marantz. I did see somebody post about the xt32 being better but never followed up on that. I do not know how or why but that is what they said. Maybe I can go find it. Also, remember this is other people making these claims and not me.
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post #16472 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I had several screens from Elite including the EZ frame AT and I really like the Seymour XD AT better. Every screen I got from Elite always had some visible defect and although they were very small once you notice or find it you can't "un" find it. My XD screen is perfect. Just my experience and I am sure others may have had different.

I have the Seymour XD as well and it is a wonderful screen!
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post #16473 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 06:49 PM
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Here is what I have found so far. I still have not found the xt32 stuff


Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Wow, the X4000 sounds amazing! Is there any reason to fork over the extra coin for the 4520CI now??

While the X4000 appears to be a "baby 4520" with most of the important features, there are still some things the 4520 has that may entice people to step up to the flagship model:

1. The 4520 is larger and heavier, with a superior amp section rated to drive 4-ohm speakers.
2. The 4520 has better build quality; it's built in Japan (not China) and has higher quality speaker binding posts for example
3. The 4520 has 9 amps built in, and can expand to 11 channels (instead of 7/9 on the X4000)
4. The 4520 has 4 zones instead of 3; the HDMI Zone output is dedicated to Zone 4, leaving Zones 2/3 independent. On the X4000, the HDMI Zone output shares Zone 2.
5. The 4520 can output component video to Zones 2 and 3, meaning it's possible to distribute HD video to all 4 zones.
6. The 4520 has full 32-bit processing architecture, including 32-bit DAC's and AL32 processing (vs. the 24-bit analogues on the X4000).
7. The 4520 has more legacy (analog) input/output connectivity, including 7.1 multichannel analog inputs, and an extra component video input and output.
8. The 4520 has a built-in 4-port ethernet hub
9. The 4520 has an incredibly flexible Amp Assign configuration, including a "Custom" free assign mode which allows any reassignment of 6 out of the 9 amps. The X4000 has the standard Amp Assign template where only 2 out of the 7 amps are reassignable according to predetermined options.

That said, for most users, the X4000 will be a smarter choice and is really an amazing value, especially considering the critical additions of XT32/SubEQ calibration and the digital multizone options.
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post #16474 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

Thanks to all who responded!

If you want a DIY screen that you make yourself you'll want to go to SeymourAV and buy the XD screen material from them. If you want a really nice manufactured screen I really recommend the new screens from Falcon Screens. The company is about a year old, forum member Rich aka snickers1 started to manufacture his own screens and IMO they are awesome.

I had a large 2'x2' sample of the XD screen material from SeymourAV and I could see the weave pattern of the screen at around 9-10ft from the screen, and I wasn't crazy about that. With the Falcon screen material I need to be about 5-6ft away before I can't notice the weave anymore, so that's a big improvement IMO. And to top it off the Falcon screen was almost $300 less then the same size SeymourAV so that was a nice bonus.
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post #16475 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

There are several potential problems (like those you identified ^). I'm going to try using the Wyred amp and see how is goes (or doesn't). I'm not looking for 125db (good thing tongue.gif). but I am used to a certain level of performance. Will course adjust as necessary. smile.gif

Jeff is on the third version of the 215T woofer. He keeps tweaking the design and that is good but may push the GTG deadline...

I am sure it will be an awesome speaker, Jeff doesn't know how to do less than that. Wishing you the best with the least biggrin.gif.
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post #16476 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Isn't it true though that a lot of the pre/pro's with XLR's aren't even a true balanced connector inside of the AVR?
For example I thought someone had said that a Marantz AV7701 and AV8801 don't have true balanced XLR's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I was considering the Emotiva Preamp (XMC-1 I think?) because it had balanced signal terminals for each channel. However, after reading disappointing things about the Emotiva Preamps and also reading something stating that the difference between an unbalanced and balanced signal will be marginal at best.



The only other preamp that I looked at was the Marantz AV8801. However this is more than I would like to spend on a preamp.

True balanced is not necessary for noise rejection AFAIK. The audio SQ difference may be marginal between balanced and unbalanced, but that is not the reason I suggest balanced. It's for the simple fact that the problems with hiss almost always involve AVR unbalanced RCA pre-outs. There are exceptions, of course, but in all the time I've been hanging around these forums I've seen a very distinct pattern to this problem. Hiss and noise sucks, bigtime.

Emotiva scares me too, but I am definitely keeping a keen eye on that new processor. If they can do something they've never done before - release a relatively bug free processor - it will be a financial game changer in the world of separates.
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post #16477 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

Thanks to all who responded!

Another Seymour XD screen owner and I had a couple of Elites early on but never their AT models. I just installed my second larger Seymour today. Don't underestimate the value of the sound coming from the screen. It makes a big difference in the movie experience and was one of the better upgrade decisions I made in the HT.

I've had several projectors and my current Sony HW50ES is the best of the lot. Not a 4K unit but I'm not to concerned about that. My previous PJ was the top of the line JVC and again, I prefer the Sony by a good margin. That said I'm sure the Epson has a great picture too. smile.gif

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post #16478 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Isn't it true though that a lot of the pre/pro's with XLR's aren't even a true balanced connector inside of the AVR?
Possibly. My thought process has been that you can't assume the connection is balanced just because it says/shows "XLR". The product/spec sheet must actually say "balanced".

Quote:
For example I thought someone had said that a Marantz AV7701 and AV8801 don't have true balanced XLR's.
The Marantz product sheets certainly claim the XLR pre-outs are balanced (see "Connectivity, Flexibility
& Expandability") and give rated outputs for both balanced and unbalanced pre-outs. It wouldn't be the first time an AV manufacturer guilded the lily though. cool.gif

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/mz_av7701_u_eng_bg001.pdf

http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/mz_av8801_u_eng_bg001.pdf

Are they being tricky with a some sort of difference between "balanced" and "fully balanced"? I dunno, just slightly suspicious.
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post #16479 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


True balanced is not necessary for noise rejection AFAIK. The audio SQ difference may be marginal between balanced and unbalanced, but that is not the reason I suggest balanced. It's for the simple fact that the problems with hiss almost always involve AVR unbalanced RCA pre-outs. There are exceptions, of course, but in all the time I've been hanging around these forums I've seen a very distinct pattern to this problem. Hiss and noise sucks, bigtime.

Emotiva scares me too, but I am definitely keeping a keen eye on that new processor. If they can do something they've never done before - release a relatively bug free processor - it will be a financial game changer in the world of separates.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I have had just the opposite thoughts though from what I've read about AVR's with XLR's. From everything that I've read unless you have long runs (like 50ft) there's no performance advantage over RCA's.

I wish there was someone around with that had a receiver with XLR connections to test out with my PA 7-350 to see if there was a difference.
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post #16480 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


True balanced is not necessary for noise rejection AFAIK. The audio SQ difference may be marginal between balanced and unbalanced, but that is not the reason I suggest balanced. It's for the simple fact that the problems with hiss almost always involve AVR unbalanced RCA pre-outs. There are exceptions, of course, but in all the time I've been hanging around these forums I've seen a very distinct pattern to this problem. Hiss and noise sucks, bigtime.

Emotiva scares me too, but I am definitely keeping a keen eye on that new processor. If they can do something they've never done before - release a relatively bug free processor - it will be a financial game changer in the world of separates.

I definitely see what you're saying. It would be a real disappointment to put all the work into the setup and turn on the hiss.

Would you please provide a similarly priced (could be a bit more) that would have the XT32 with subeq and balanced terminals preamp? I'm unsure of all the manufacturers that have audyssey.

Thanks!
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post #16481 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Another Seymour XD screen owner and I had a couple of Elites early on but never their AT models. I just installed my second larger Seymour today. Don't underestimate the value of the sound coming from the screen. It makes a big difference in the movie experience and was one of the better upgrade decisions I made in the HT.
smile.gif

Once again I totally agree with you on this, after I switched to an AT screen I don't think I could ever go back. It just adds a totally new level of the true "home theater" feel to our setup. Even my wife has mentioned how much she likes it and typically she doesn't give a funk about most of the stuff I do to our theater.
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post #16482 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm not disagreeing with you, I have had just the opposite thoughts though from what I've read about AVR's with XLR's. From everything that I've read unless you have long runs (like 50ft) there's no performance advantage over RCA's.

I wish there was someone around with that had a receiver with XLR connections to test out with my PA 7-350 to see if there was a difference.
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Parts express has 15's and 20's. If you have any buddies with other amps, you should try one out and see if it's stops. Some guys have emotive and no hiss at all and that makes me believe that theres more to it than just the amps gain. Once I went from RCA's on my Denon 4311 (bad hiss) to my current integra 80.3 XLR, I have no audible hiss at all.

I have read dozens of these accounts over the years. I've not done a scientific study on it or anything like that, but I just don't read many accounts of issues with hiss or noise with balanced connections like I do with unbalanced. In fact, there are so many unbalanced complaints that I can't even remember the last time I read of someone with balanced connections having the issue. I'm sure they're out there, and perhaps I've read about someone having the issue, but I honestly can't remember it.

So yes, I've read those same things as you about no advantage, yet it seems that the vast majority of posts I've read regarding audible noise contradicts that. That's not any sort of expert opinion on the matter, but just my experience.
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post #16483 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


I have read dozens of these accounts over the years. I've not done a scientific study on it or anything like that, but I just don't read many accounts of issues with hiss or noise with balanced connections like I do with unbalanced. In fact, there are so many unbalanced complaints that I can't even remember the last time I read of someone with balanced connections having the issue. I'm sure they're out there, and perhaps I've read about someone having the issue, but I honestly can't remember it.

So yes, I've read those same things as you about no advantage, yet it seems that the vast majority of posts I've read regarding audible noise contradicts that. That's not any sort of expert opinion on the matter, but just my experience.

I guess what it comes down too, is that I really need to find a way to test a AVR with balanced XLR connections on it in my setup!..lol smile.gif
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post #16484 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I definitely see what you're saying. It would be a real disappointment to put all the work into the setup and turn on the hiss.

Would you please provide a similarly priced (could be a bit more) that would have the XT32 with subeq and balanced terminals preamp? I'm unsure of all the manufacturers that have audyssey.

Thanks!

Wish I could do that biggrin.gif. You're going to pay more for balanced and the top iteration of Audyssey. The Marantz AV7701 is a balanced prepro that is a very good value, except it has XT. But pair it with an antimode 2.0 http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml to cover your bass and I think it would be every bit as good - if not better - than Audyssey subEQ. I think the big benefit with Audyssey is in it's bass EQ and far less in the upper frequencies, particularly with controlled directivity designs and compression drivers, such as JTR speakers.
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post #16485 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 07:52 PM
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I guess what it comes down too, is that I really need to find a way to test a AVR with balanced XLR connections on it in my setup!..lol smile.gif

Yea, me too biggrin.gif
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post #16486 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Wish I could do that biggrin.gif. You're going to pay more for balanced and the top iteration of Audyssey. The Marantz AV7701 is a balanced prepro that is a very good value, except it has XT. But pair it with an antimode 2.0 http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml to cover your bass and I think it would be every bit as good - if not better - than Audyssey subEQ. I think the big benefit with Audyssey is in it's bass EQ and far less in the upper frequencies, particularly with controlled directivity designs and compression drivers, such as JTR speakers.

What's the current feeling on Onkyo? It looks like the PR-SC5509 has XT32 with balanced outputs.
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post #16487 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 10:14 PM
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What's the current feeling on Onkyo? It looks like the PR-SC5509 has XT32 with balanced outputs.

They are excellent units, my integra 80.3 is the 5508 version and It's a fantastic unit.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #16488 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 10:21 PM
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80.3 is 5509 version I thought. 80.2 was 5508 equivalent right?

The difference between the 5508/5509 and 80.2 and 80.3 is pretty darn negligible. I think there is a better video upscaler in the newer unit and that's about it. I personally like the gui and actual physical cabinet of the 5508 better than the 5509 (there was a significant change in both between the years) --- but I'm not sure about the Integra GUI -- if it changed or not over those two models.

I have a Onkyo 5508 and it'll be a bit cheaper than the 5509 probably --- yet have effectively the exact same feature set for most users. I don't use upscaling video anyway - I always chose through or source so the bluray player is just putting out the picture and the AVR or pre-amp is hands off.

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post #16489 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post


I wish there was someone around with that had a receiver with XLR connections to test out with my PA 7-350 to see if there was a difference.

Post 15435

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/15420#post_24288514


I'm an avsforum member with the "grass is always greener..." syndrome.

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post #16490 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Post 15435

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/15420#post_24288514


I'm an avsforum member with the "grass is always greener..." syndrome.

Alright Archaea, now you have me wanting to find a deal on a used Onkyo 5509 smile.gif

The one issue that I was thinking though, was that I was still getting a slight buzz with nothing hooked out to my amp except the speakers. So how would XLR connectors have anything to do with that. The buzz was still there with no RCA's even plugged into the amp confused.gif ....lol
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post #16491 of 31063 Old 02-18-2014, 11:17 PM
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After putting a few hours on my 228's listening to music I have to say I am loving them. They Are so clear and dynamic. I have to be careful about turning them up too loud. I am hearing things I haven't heard before in music, especially strange to hear a singer taking a breath during the song!

Watched a few demo scenes on blu ray and watched the last hour of Oblivion. Same thing, extremely clear and I want to turn them up louder. Need to be careful when my daughter is watching with me.

Stayed up way to late tonight listening to these.....

What is everyone crossing these over at? Audyssey recommended 60hz, I set them at 80hz.

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
4 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials in slanted boxes (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
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post #16492 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Another Seymour XD screen owner and I had a couple of Elites early on but never their AT models. I just installed my second larger Seymour today. Don't underestimate the value of the sound coming from the screen. It makes a big difference in the movie experience and was one of the better upgrade decisions I made in the HT.

I've had several projectors and my current Sony HW50ES is the best of the lot. Not a 4K unit but I'm not to concerned about that. My previous PJ was the top of the line JVC and again, I prefer the Sony by a good margin. That said I'm sure the Epson has a great picture too. smile.gif

Why do you like the Sony more than the JVC?
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post #16493 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post

After putting a few hours on my 228's listening to music I have to say I am loving them. They Are so clear and dynamic. I have to be careful about turning them up too loud. I am hearing things I haven't heard before in music, especially strange to hear a singer taking a breath during the song!

Watched a few demo scenes on blu ray and watched the last hour of Oblivion. Same thing, extremely clear and I want to turn them up louder. Need to be careful when my daughter is watching with me.

Stayed up way to late tonight listening to these.....

What is everyone crossing these over at? Audyssey recommended 60hz, I set them at 80hz.
I have my 212's at 80
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post #16494 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 06:56 AM
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Why do you like the Sony more than the JVC?

My JVC was the RS35 when it was top dog a few years ago. It was nice with the best blacks (at the time) but the Sony is brighter and has that terrific novelty 3D thing that can be fun. So brighter, equal PQ, and 3D at 1/3 the price ... cool.gif

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post #16495 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 07:06 AM
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My JVC was the RS35 when it was top dog a few years ago. It was nice with the best blacks (at the time) but the Sony is brighter and has that terrific novelty 3D thing that can be fun. So brighter, equal PQ, and 3D at 1/3 the price ... cool.gif

Since we have the same projector, I will also add the Sony has the lowest lag (yes, I am a total nerd and enjoy playing video games).
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post #16496 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Isn't it true though that a lot of the pre/pro's with XLR's aren't even a true balanced connector inside of the AVR?
For example I thought someone had said that a Marantz AV7701 and AV8801 don't have true balanced XLR's.

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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post

Are they being tricky with a some sort of difference between "balanced" and "fully balanced"? I dunno, just slightly suspicious.

You found 'em out!!! Haha, the connection is considered, "balanced" since the cable itself is still balanced, but "Fully Balanced" would require the AVR to have a separate ground, of which it does not have. This is common with most AVR's and Pre's.

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I'm not disagreeing with you, I have had just the opposite thoughts though from what I've read about AVR's with XLR's. From everything that I've read unless you have long runs (like 50ft) there's no performance advantage over RCA's.

I wish there was someone around with that had a receiver with XLR connections to test out with my PA 7-350 to see if there was a difference.

The higher sens of the 50's still keeps my room dead quiet using the marantz and the sherbourn connected via xlr. I did order some 10dB pads to try out but I am confident I wont see a difference. You could perhaps. If I don't I'll send em to you.

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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I definitely see what you're saying. It would be a real disappointment to put all the work into the setup and turn on the hiss.

Would you please provide a similarly priced (could be a bit more) that would have the XT32 with subeq and balanced terminals preamp? I'm unsure of all the manufacturers that have audyssey.

Thanks!

Are you dead set on audyssey? the yamaha cx5000 has XLR's and is a very solid unit from what some have said. I have no experience with it so take that FWIW.

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Originally Posted by Protium View Post

What's the current feeling on Onkyo? It looks like the PR-SC5509 has XT32 with balanced outputs.

I am not sure if it is different from the previous Onk's but even though it has xt32, I know some of the previous ones didn't have subeq ht as well.

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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

My JVC was the RS35 when it was top dog a few years ago. It was nice with the best blacks (at the time) but the Sony is brighter and has that terrific novelty 3D thing that can be fun. So brighter, equal PQ, and 3D at 1/3 the price ... cool.gif

wooooo. You haven't seen one of the newer JVC's then my man. I was at my local shop the other day and we were doing a head to head with the Ep 6030 and the new JVC top-end one (cant remember the model #) and the difference was just unreal. Freaking gorgeous image with the JVC and black levels to die for. I miss my rs40, but it wasn't even in the same league as the new one I saw. They have improved immensely with the 3d feature over the last two models as well.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)


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post #16497 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 10:44 AM
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…one implementation is not better than the other. Now one receiver might have better parts (Amps, DACs,etc..) or more bells and whistles but the XT32 will be the same.

+1

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post #16498 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


wooooo. You haven't seen one of the newer JVC's then my man. I was at my local shop the other day and we were doing a head to head with the Ep 6030 and the new JVC top-end one (cant remember the model #) and the difference was just unreal. Freaking gorgeous image with the JVC and black levels to die for. I miss my rs40, but it wasn't even in the same league as the new one I saw. They have improved immensely with the 3d feature over the last two models as well.

+1. I was pretty set on buying a Sony HW50 or 55 but ended up buying a JVC X500/4910 instead. The PQ is truly amazing!
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post #16499 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

My JVC was the RS35 when it was top dog a few years ago. It was nice with the best blacks (at the time) but the Sony is brighter and has that terrific novelty 3D thing that can be fun. So brighter, equal PQ, and 3D at 1/3 the price ... cool.gif

I jumped from the RS-40 to the RS-56 back in the Fall....

The RS-40 was a great unit(didn't and still don't utilize 3D), but the RS-56 was a HUGE jump up in performance... The black levels are AMAZING... I noticed it the most when I watch 1:85 material on my 2:35 screen. It doesn't take long for my eyes to even notice the unused portion of the screen.

I think the Sony and JVC units are the best overall FP's for the money...
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post #16500 of 31063 Old 02-19-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


Post 15435

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1165099/official-jtr-speaker-thread/15420#post_24288514


I'm an avsforum member with the "grass is always greener..." syndrome.

Dang.  Thanks for the link Archaea.  Your experience is leaning me towards just getting the Denon 4520CI and calling it good there.

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