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Protium's Avatar Protium 03:17 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


Some good rules of thumb

~Place your subs at 1/4 space in from side walls
~Make your main listening position and the two main speakers an equilateral triangle. This will maximize placement and the soundstage from your mains.
~Side wall absorption at tertiary reflections would be recommended
~A-T screens rule @frolich

First off thank you for your reply.

 

Do you have recommended clearance for the front left and right speakers from the back and side walls?  My LP is ~12' with the spacing between the FL and FR being 12' would bring them within a foot of the side walls.

 

Also, with my second row of seating I would expect the listener's head to be ~2-3' from the back wall.  Any issues with this (reflections or rear speakers too close?)?  Should I look at reducing my LP distance?

 

Any insight is appreciated!



Frohlich's Avatar Frohlich 03:38 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

First off thank you for your reply.

Do you have recommended clearance for the front left and right speakers from the back and side walls?  My LP is ~12' with the spacing between the FL and FR being 12' would bring them within a foot of the side walls.

Also, with my second row of seating I would expect the listener's head to be ~2-3' from the back wall.  Any issues with this (reflections or rear speakers too close?)?  Should I look at reducing my LP distance?

Any insight is appreciated!

There are no rules of thumb that work 100% of the time because each room is different and each persons preferences are different. Some things to try:

1)move your speakers away from walls by a couple of feet if space allows..play around with placement, including toe in
2)use acoustical treatments if funding and room layout allow
3)the sweet spot will usually sound the best,especially for 2 channel stereo
4)dual subs tend to help smooth out the sound from seat to seat...so go that route if funding and placement allow it
5)use room correction..XT 32 is pretty common and works well with movies (Some differing opinions on how it treats music)
6)most of enjoy the hobby and the process..tweaking and playing around with placement and layout are part of the fun for many of us.
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 04:15 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I suggest playing around with moving your L and R further apart than the equilateral triangle. I've done so much experimenting with speaker placement and I ALWAYS come back to having them further apart than they are from me. I'm 9'6 from each speaker and they are 11' 6" apart (that's 11'6" from the inside edges of the cabinets so CD's are even further apart than that).

I don't know... they just have a better and bigger soundstage - more seperation between instruments and better "singer is in the room" thing going on.

We've talked about this before so this is for anyone to try out if they are curious. I don't think you can go wider in your room than you are from the speakers?? From the pics it looks like your speakers are almost to the side walls anyway. Haha, I'd be moving up that front row!! biggrin.gif

Did that a few weeks ago! 9 feet from a 138" 16:9 is pretty darn close, but it is pretty sweet. I am basically as equilateral as I can get with an 11 foot wide room. Can't get any closer. I think that is actually why I like a little less toe-in as I get a little off the (treated) side walls still. One of those Opeth tracks and DT stuff I can clearly hear instruments that extend past the 11 foot width and it is something else!!!! That one Tool track where the vocals alternate between the mains, the effect puts the vocals basically circling around your head. it is a full 360 effect that I think they were actually aiming for, but super cool nonetheless
carp's Avatar carp 04:27 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Did that a few weeks ago! 9 feet from a 138" 16:9 is pretty darn close, but it is pretty sweet. I am basically as equilateral as I can get with an 11 foot wide room. Can't get any closer. I think that is actually why I like a little less toe-in as I get a little off the (treated) side walls still. One of those Opeth tracks and DT stuff I can clearly hear instruments that extend past the 11 foot width and it is something else!!!! That one Tool track where the vocals alternate between the mains, the effect puts the vocals basically circling around your head. it is a full 360 effect that I think they were actually aiming for, but super cool nonetheless

Nice!!

Do you mean the Tool song with Henry Rollins? LOVE That effect.
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 04:47 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Nice!!

Do you mean the Tool song with Henry Rollins? LOVE That effect.

"The devil is in their hands" part smile.gif
asoofi1's Avatar asoofi1 07:15 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

I don't think my room dimensions would support front wide speakers.  I do think that front heights would be possible.  Therefore I have limited my channel selection to 

Are the internal components on the 4520 a significant upgrade from the X4000?  DAC, amps, etc.  if they are worth (I know a relative term) the money then I would consider it.

Heights are a waste and more value and performance will be achieved through second sub, quality surrounds, room treatments, etc. Strong 5.2 or 7.2.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 09:00 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Heights are a waste and more value and performance will be achieved through second sub, quality surrounds, room treatments, etc. Strong 5.2 or 7.2.

Not sure I would call Height speakers a waste but clearly the other items you mention should take precedence. I just sold my height speakers because they didn't add that much to the experience (like ULF's wink.gif ). I guess it comes down to big rooms need more speakers and sound to fill them. My room was easily overpowered by my setup and that will probably continue to be the case if I push it. It is interesting to me how good a couple of Triple 8LP's mains and a Slanted 8 center sound even without subs. The fact that they are behind an AT screen removes the visual bias so I just listen.
N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 09:07 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Heights are a waste and more value and performance will be achieved through second sub, quality surrounds, room treatments, etc. Strong 5.2 or 7.2.

I agree with a second sub being the better pick but in the right room, heights or wides are great. Have you heard Heights in a room that could accomidate them? I've setup over 60 systems now and believe me, in the right room, it can really add to fill in gaps. Unless you've been in a good one, it's hard to explain but I've never met anyone that had good sized room that had 9 or 11 channels and went back to 7 or 5. I've even done a 7.2 to 11.2 in a room for a client when I was doing pro calibrations just to see what he liked better, within 20 seconds, the 9 channel stayed and he quickly went online to buy a few more surrounds to add for wides, which we added later. In a small room I 100% agree but in a larger room, its great.
raynist's Avatar raynist 09:37 PM 02-20-2014
I have had my 228's in my system now for 3 days. We have to walk through this room to get to the garage. My wife still hasn't noticed or mentioned the 228's. I don't know how that is possible, I had to rearrange the placement of several things to make them fit and they are way more substantial than what they replaced. My 7 year old daughter noticed them right away. She even did a workout DVD on them.

Maybe she has just given up asking about new toys?

Before I got these I was 99.5% movies, in the last 3 days I have been about 90% music. I haven't really had time to sit down for a few hours to watch a movie though.
ufokillerz's Avatar ufokillerz 09:56 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

Heights are a waste and more value and performance will be achieved through second sub, quality surrounds, room treatments, etc. Strong 5.2 or 7.2.

heights sound awesome in my room, have you tried heights with speakers with wide dispersion patterns. such as the single 8's etc.

heights are not a waste for someone looking to expand their already awesome system.
asoofi1's Avatar asoofi1 09:58 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

After putting a few hours on my 228's listening to music I have to say I am loving them. They Are so clear and dynamic. I have to be careful about turning them up too loud. I am hearing things I haven't heard before in music, especially strange to hear a singer taking a breath during the song!

Watched a few demo scenes on blu ray and watched the last hour of Oblivion. Same thing, extremely clear and I want to turn them up louder. Need to be careful when my daughter is watching with me.

Stayed up way to late tonight listening to these.....

What is everyone crossing these over at? Audyssey recommended 60hz, I set them at 80hz.

I let Audyssey decide as it calculates to your certain room and applies the necessary corrections, so what someone else's XO setting is may not apply to your specific room & calibration.

Another thing to keep in mind is make sure to perform Audyssey correctly by measuring 8 points. This is the measuring guide I found & followed...it sounded much better than just measuring the MLP, which is a mistake many people make, including myself:

(Important: All points are relative to MLP position)
1 - MLP
2 - 3" inches forward of MLP
3 - 3" inches up of MLP
4 - 3" inches forward, and 3" up of MLP
5 - 3" inches left of MLP
6 - 3" right of MLP
7 - 6" inches left of MLP
8 - 6" inches right of MLP

After Audyssey, Minidsp is a no brainer and the next step IMHO.
asoofi1's Avatar asoofi1 10:39 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

The AT screen is recommended due to aligning the tweeter of the center channel with ear height?  Any recommendations on screen manufacturers?  (Sorry to drag video discussion in a speaker thread).  I was looking at the Elite Screen EZFRAME AT screen material.  Does this manufacturer have a good reputation?

In terms of video projection, I have decided to purchase the Epson 5030 (can always be persuaded as I haven't purchased yet).  However, the lumen level, throw range and general quality all align with this projector IMO.  Anyone have experience with this projector?

Thanks to all who responded!

An AT screen is the best option, if space permits.

If going with 16:9 screen, then Epson 5030 is great. If 2:35, Panasonic 8000.

I was initially going to go with a 16:9, but now I'm going with 2:35 myself. Just better for majority of movie ratios and you only give up very little on 16:9 source...For instance, a 163" diagonal 2:35 screen will still give you about 130" diagonal 16:9 image. Plus, a 2:35 screen width will allow more displacement between the LCR speakers.
Skylinestar's Avatar Skylinestar 11:05 PM 02-20-2014
Has anyone compare the JTR 228HT against Klipsch RC64ii? Which gives a bigger & fuller voice in movies? Is there a night & day difference between these two?
Archaea's Avatar Archaea 11:17 PM 02-20-2014
I'm not a big fan of the Klipsch RC-64ii. I've compared the 228HT against the RC-64ii at avsforum member and klipsch owner scrappydue's house directly. We both preferred the 228HT as a center. I think his Klipsch Towers were significantly better than the RC-64. But overall we both still liked the 228HT as a L/C/R setup. The Klipsch center channel gets a boxy sound about 6 or 7 dB below reference IMO. You don't get that at all with the 228HT.
asoofi1's Avatar asoofi1 11:52 PM 02-20-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Not sure I would call Height speakers a waste but clearly the other items you mention should take precedence. I just sold my height speakers because they didn't add that much to the experience (like ULF's wink.gif ). I guess it comes down to big rooms need more speakers and sound to fill them. My room was easily overpowered by my setup and that will probably continue to be the case if I push it. It is interesting to me how good a couple of Triple 8LP's mains and a Slanted 8 center sound even without subs. The fact that they are behind an AT screen removes the visual bias so I just listen.

I think they may sound good in certain applications & much larger room...I've even considered using heights in the middle of the ceiling to get an Atmos type of effect and may try it. I do think it's a waste in majority of rooms, because most people just don't have the space to take full advantage of it, being that average rooms being only 7-9' feet high and under 3000^3. I should expand on my use of 'waste' to describe the application...it's more the ROI. One can put some less expensive surrounds up there, but certainly not something costing over a couple hundred bucks IMO...just not enough coming out and nothing even placed by the sound engineer beyond 5.1 anyway....I was just looking to pre-order Gravity, and even that is only 5.1 rolleyes.gif

Speaking of the 8's....I tried two of them as LR, and they were fantastic. If someone has limited space, five 8LP with 2 subs would be a great setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I agree with a second sub being the better pick but in the right room, heights or wides are great. Have you heard Heights in a room that could accomidate them? I've setup over 60 systems now and believe me, in the right room, it can really add to fill in gaps. Unless you've been in a good one, it's hard to explain but I've never met anyone that had good sized room that had 9 or 11 channels and went back to 7 or 5. I've even done a 7.2 to 11.2 in a room for a client when I was doing pro calibrations just to see what he liked better, within 20 seconds, the 9 channel stayed and he quickly went online to buy a few more surrounds to add for wides, which we added later. In a small room I 100% agree but in a larger room, its great.

Yes, I built a dedicated theater with about 13-14' ceiling and installed a 11.1 setup with heights. I didn't hear a difference at the time with a variety of demo clips (scubasteve bd). I'm going to go back to that HT and retest and recalibrate. There are many factors that effect the final performance, so definitely willing to give it another chance and be convinced otherwise...just haven't thus far. I have some extra speakers, so I will try them out as heights in my current setup...I've got 9' ceilings, but as in most applications, I'm pretty sure the LCR will overpower heights just like they are doing with the wides I'm trying out right now. The R&D continues smile.gif
asoofi1's Avatar asoofi1 12:34 AM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

heights sound awesome in my room, have you tried heights with speakers with wide dispersion patterns. such as the single 8's etc.

heights are not a waste for someone looking to expand their already awesome system.

I've tried it with speakers that have 90x90 degrees of dispersion. No discernible difference to me.

My take is that heights are expanding on the LR channels to give more of a 'wall' of sound and 'trailing' some effects over the head, but with speakers like the 212, or even 228, I don't think there will be enough displacement between location of the LR and Height speakers...essentially the LR overwhelms the Heights. As I mentioned, I'm always open minded to revisit and I will definitely try it again in my current setup...who knows, I may change my mind.

For now, it's a waste of money IMHO. After going to 9.x, 11.x, and even 7.x now...I still believe 5.x gives the best ROI for majority of movies & applications.
countryWV's Avatar countryWV 05:29 AM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I let Audyssey decide as it calculates to your certain room and applies the necessary corrections, so what someone else's XO setting is may not apply to your specific room & calibration.

Another thing to keep in mind is make sure to perform Audyssey correctly by measuring 8 points. This is the measuring guide I found & followed...it sounded much better than just measuring the MLP, which is a mistake many people make, including myself:

(Important: All points are relative to MLP position)
1 - MLP
2 - 3" inches forward of MLP
3 - 3" inches up of MLP
4 - 3" inches forward, and 3" up of MLP
5 - 3" inches left of MLP
6 - 3" right of MLP
7 - 6" inches left of MLP
8 - 6" inches right of MLP

After Audyssey, Minidsp is a no brainer and the next step IMHO.
Try it in 2' increments. MLP first then form a 2 foot square or circle with the MLP as the radius.

1 MLP
2 MLP 2' Back middle
3 MLP 2' Back R
4 MLP 2' Back L
5 MLP 2' Side L
6 MLP 2' Side R
7 MLP 2' Front R
8 MLP 2' Front L

Something like that with mic 2' feet from LP on other 7 points.

Another tip is make sure its quiet with no heat pump, no one walking around upstairs, no washer and dryer going, and no cars passing by outside. Early in the morning is usually the quietest.
Chris
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio 08:23 AM 02-21-2014
mad.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

I have had my 228's in my system now for 3 days. We have to walk through this room to get to the garage. My wife still hasn't noticed or mentioned the 228's. I don't know how that is possible, I had to rearrange the placement of several things to make them fit and they are way more substantial than what they replaced. My 7 year old daughter noticed them right away. She even did a workout DVD on them.

Maybe she has just given up asking about new toys?

Before I got these I was 99.5% movies, in the last 3 days I have been about 90% music. I haven't really had time to sit down for a few hours to watch a movie though.

Your 7 year old has workout DVD's? I see a slight problem with this....

You need to get her Blu Ray's.
RMK!'s Avatar RMK! 08:47 AM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Protium View Post

First off thank you for your reply.

Do you have recommended clearance for the front left and right speakers from the back and side walls?  My LP is ~12' with the spacing between the FL and FR being 12' would bring them within a foot of the side walls.

Also, with my second row of seating I would expect the listener's head to be ~2-3' from the back wall.  Any issues with this (reflections or rear speakers too close?)?  Should I look at reducing my LP distance?

Any insight is appreciated!

That is pretty close to my config. LP is 11' from the CC and the second row seat backs are 30" off of the back wall. Mains have always been within 18" of the front and side walls. All walls and the ceiling are treated with absorption panels. More space would be better but it is what it is as I converted and existing space and had to work within those parameters. I treated most of the back wall with 2'X4' GIK bass traps and added some unusual diffusion panels on top of the bass traps. The back row sounds pretty good to me but the front row (center) has, and will continue to be the sweet spot, Audyssey seems to do a reasonable job in making a much larger sweet spot (i.e. better sound across all seats) but it does slightly compromise imaging from the main LP IMO.
raynist's Avatar raynist 11:35 AM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

mad.gif
Your 7 year old has workout DVD's? I see a slight problem with this....

You need to get her Blu Ray's.

Lol, after I typed that I thought maybe it sounded like they were hers. I actually meant my wife's. If but were my daughters it would have to be on an iPad. She knows nothing of physical media smile.gif
subyguy's Avatar subyguy 12:06 PM 02-21-2014
Second OS and (3) 212 HT's are enroute. TIme to swap out the T12s.
countryWV's Avatar countryWV 12:50 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Second OS and (3) 212 HT's are enroute. TIme to swap out the T12s.
Very Nice. cool.gif T12s could make for a great set of Side surrounds. biggrin.gif

Congratulations on an Awesome system.
Chris
ufokillerz's Avatar ufokillerz 01:27 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post

I've tried it with speakers that have 90x90 degrees of dispersion. No discernible difference to me.

My take is that heights are expanding on the LR channels to give more of a 'wall' of sound and 'trailing' some effects over the head, but with speakers like the 212, or even 228, I don't think there will be enough displacement between location of the LR and Height speakers...essentially the LR overwhelms the Heights. As I mentioned, I'm always open minded to revisit and I will definitely try it again in my current setup...who knows, I may change my mind.

For now, it's a waste of money IMHO. After going to 9.x, 11.x, and even 7.x now...I still believe 5.x gives the best ROI for majority of movies & applications.


i was blown away by having heights in place for black hawk down. to each their own. i have a pretty decent 9.2 system.
popalock's Avatar popalock 01:38 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

i was blown away by having heights in place for black hawk down. to each their own. i have a pretty decent 9.2 system.

IREEEEENE...
ufokillerz's Avatar ufokillerz 02:04 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

IREEEEENE...

granted that its not the best example, but i found the heights effect to really stand out with the helicopter landings and all!
N8DOGG's Avatar N8DOGG 03:35 PM 02-21-2014
Well, I got the email today from Jeff and the 215's are officially ordered. He said the 210's are done as well, just needs to make the xover.
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105 03:50 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

Second OS and (3) 212 HT's are enroute. TIme to swap out the T12s.
awesome! post some impressions for sure.
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 03:59 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Well, I got the email today from Jeff and the 215's are officially ordered. He said the 210's are done as well, just needs to make the xover.

You lucky son of a B*!ch...lol
Gooddoc's Avatar Gooddoc 04:35 PM 02-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Well, I got the email today from Jeff and the 215's are officially ordered. He said the 210's are done as well, just needs to make the xover.

Ssweeeeet! biggrin.gif
thebuckaman's Avatar thebuckaman 04:38 PM 02-21-2014
I just saw on Facebook page that they are officially named. Noesis 215rt
Tags: 228ht , captivator , Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
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