Official JTR speaker thread - Page 559 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hogues View Post

Looks great, UFO. I regret not getting a custom veneer.

+1. My wife would be far happier with those....

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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I don't understand this challenge. Why would I need an a/b switch to tell the difference. At a specified dB like reference it may be true you can't tell the difference but at higher volumes of course you can. Once the amp clips it sounds bad and the harder the clipping the quicker it sounds bad. Light clipping takes longer to fatigue the ear but either way it is not desireable. This in no way means a certain individual needs the high powered amp if they are operating below clipping with their AVR. You can ship that thing to me and I will test but really no need since I will test at levels that will blow the receiver's amp up, but if it damages my 212's who's going to pay for the drivers? Now I am told the drivers on the 212 probably would not be harmed but not sure I want to drive that distorted power through them. What is the point of all this? We know the sensitivity ratings of the speakers, we know the power ratings, we know our personal listening levels and most of us have measurement equipment. Why do I need to blow up an AVR to prove the high powered amp can offer something to the 212's the AVR can't. Do you not trust Jeff's program power rating of the 212? I just spoke with Jeff about this again this weekend. Even though I have a Sunfire 7400 we both think another 6dB of clean output will be achieved with the LG10k

Clipping of brief peaks in highly dynamic content is, as far as I can tell, very hard to distinguish. I think many would not even be able to tell if they were told it was happening. And yes, it happens with fairly powerful amps even at reference level...at least according to Tom Danley smile.gif. I make no claim to even trying to test for it, no less heard it with my own ears. But I trust Tom biggrin.gif.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

You can ship that thing to me and I will test but really no need since I will test at levels that will blow the receiver's amp up, but if it damages my 212's who's going to pay for the drivers? Now I am told the drivers on the 212 probably would not be harmed but not sure I want to drive that distorted power through them. What is the point of all this? We know the sensitivity ratings of the speakers, we know the power ratings, we know our personal listening levels and most of us have measurement equipment. Why do I need to blow up an AVR to prove the high powered amp can offer something to the 212's the AVR can't.


Blow up an avr? I don't know how crazy you get with the volume but I am an idiot biggrin.gif with the remote in my hand. It takes me all of 2 watts to hit reference at my main LP on the 212's using an inuke (which has a limiter that you can adjust and watch the clip light). With all 7 speakers I obviously need more.... I should test that but I would need a buttload of inukes.... eek.gif

I've gone WAY the hell over reference in every demo I've done and no blowing up of the avr. However the avr did shut off when I demo'd Beast's Danleys (before hooking up the ep 4000) so if I had those speakers I'd have an amp for sure.

Now, outside would be a different story. We maxed out an inuke 3000 long before the 212's were done at the park.


BTW, Popalock has an incredible switcher and compared his avr to his clone amp on his rf-7's. I don't want to speak for him but you can guess what his impressions were since I'm mentioning it here.


All this said... I'll probably run a separate amp again eventually... I like new toys and watching my speakers drivers move - ha, if the drivers are moving you are at earplug time so it's pretty silly... smile.gif.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:51 PM
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Thanks.

Is the distance from the wall calculated for the from of the speaker or the back? I would assume there is a change when the speaker is in a corner too right?
The distance is calculated from the driver that is producing the frequencies below 500 hz. The driver is usually on the front of the speaker.

The closer a speaker is to the corner, the higher the cancellation frequency. For example, a driver 2' from the front wall and 1' from the side wall will have cancellation at 141.25 Hz and 252.5 Hz. The higher the frequency for 1/4 wavelength, the less problem there is because the sound waves change from omnidirectional to direct. If you are the same distance from the front and side wall, the cancellation will increase.

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Old 02-27-2014, 04:06 PM
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Those JBL's are looking good Beast! Have you fired them up yet?

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Old 02-27-2014, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post

Blow up an avr? I don't know how crazy you get with the volume but I am an idiot biggrin.gif with the remote in my hand. It takes me all of 2 watts to hit reference at my main LP on the 212's using an inuke (which has a limiter that you can adjust and watch the clip light). With all 7 speakers I obviously need more.... I should test that but I would need a buttload of inukes.... eek.gif

I've gone WAY the hell over reference in every demo I've done and no blowing up of the avr. However the avr did shut off when I demo'd Beast's Danleys (before hooking up the ep 4000) so if I had those speakers I'd have an amp for sure.

Now, outside would be a different story. We maxed out an inuke 3000 long before the 212's were done at the park.


BTW, Popalock has an incredible switcher and compared his avr to his clone amp on his rf-7's. I don't want to speak for him but you can guess what his impressions were since I'm mentioning it here.


All this said... I'll probably run a separate amp again eventually... I like new toys and watching my speakers drivers move - ha, if the drivers are moving you are at earplug time so it's pretty silly... smile.gif.

It's @NathanJ's switcher. Back in the hands of the rightful owner since a few days after Gorilla's GTG. I miss the hell out of that thing and if I still had it I'd post up a video and some more measurements realtime.

I pushed my RF-7's up to +8db running full range and switched between my SC-57 and FP10KQ and heard 0 difference.

Bottomline though is that until a person has the opportunity to perform the same test with the ability to switch between AVR and external amp power INSTANTLY, they have to rely on audio memory...

It was a real eye opener for me and got me excited for a moment!...then I quickly realized that my epiphany/findings mean absolutely nothing to anyone else in the audio community.

Nathan did mention he was thinking about posting up a DIY tutorial for others to build their own switcher...let's hope so!

If I had a few I'd make it a point to ship them to anyone on AVS interested in experimenting, but I don't...yet....
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:27 PM
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Those JBL's are looking good Beast! Have you fired them up yet?

Briefly! They can shake some walls all on their own. I could see someone being happy just running two of these as a bass system...But what fun is that right? Hehe. I still need to get you the port measurment, but they do have a 90 degree right inside about 3 inches so it might be tough smile.gif
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:11 PM
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+1. My wife would be far happier with those....
Clipping of brief peaks in highly dynamic content is, as far as I can tell, very hard to distinguish. I think many would not even be able to tell if they were told it was happening. And yes, it happens with fairly powerful amps even at reference level...at least according to Tom Danley smile.gif. I make no claim to even trying to test for it, no less heard it with my own ears. But I trust Tom biggrin.gif.
I trust Tom's advice too but most of the stuff I have read from him demonstrates how much people underestimate the transients involved in reproducing live sound. I also trust Jeff and he agrees the LG would be just about the perfect match for the 212's. Having said that I have nothing against the T-amp.biggrin.gif

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Amplifiers: Sunfire TGA7400 (surrounds), Lab Gruppen FP10000Q (mains)
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HTR (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

It's @NathanJ's switcher. Back in the hands of the rightful owner since a few days after Gorilla's GTG. I miss the hell out of that thing and if I still had it I'd post up a video and some more measurements realtime.

I pushed my RF-7's up to +8db running full range and switched between my SC-57 and FP10KQ and heard 0 difference.

Bottomline though is that until a person has the opportunity to perform the same test with the ability to switch between AVR and external amp power INSTANTLY, they have to rely on audio memory...

It was a real eye opener for me and got me excited for a moment!...then I quickly realized that my epiphany/findings mean absolutely nothing to anyone else in the audio community.

Nathan did mention he was thinking about posting up a DIY tutorial for others to build their own switcher...let's hope so!

If I had a few I'd make it a point to ship them to anyone on AVS interested in experimenting, but I don't...yet....
this is good to know. For me I need to test +20dBfr at 25 ft in a highly treated 3600^3 ft room. Once I get the LG this spring I'll post my findings. For now I am just speculating based on specs.cool.gif

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1 w/Dirac Live, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifiers: Sunfire TGA7400 (surrounds), Lab Gruppen FP10000Q (mains)
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

this is good to know. For me I need to test +20dBfr at 25 ft in a highly treated 3600^3 ft room. Once I get the LG this spring I'll post my findings. For now I am just speculating based on specs.cool.gif


eek.gifcool.gifcool.gifcool.gifcool.gif


Hahaha, ok then. Completely disre -F ing -gard what I said. biggrin.gif 25 feet at 20 over reference in a well treated room = way more power than I thought we were talking about here.

Carry on!! smile.gif
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:30 PM
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I know there is a lot of experience with attenuators on this thread since JTR speakers are so high sensitivity. My new amps came intoday so of course Audyssey got pegged at -12 so I ordered attentuators. There is also an audible hum that I think other's have experienced with high gain amps and JTR speakers. Will the attenuators also help reduce that? I know with my last amp, it had gain knobs so I was able to get that hum to go away by reducing the gain on the amp. The new amps don't have gain adjustment so I can't do that. Will the attenuators essentially do the same thing as reducing the gain on the new amps and thus reducing/eliminating that hum?
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post

It's @NathanJ's switcher. Back in the hands of the rightful owner since a few days after Gorilla's GTG. I miss the hell out of that thing and if I still had it I'd post up a video and some more measurements realtime.

I pushed my RF-7's up to +8db running full range and switched between my SC-57 and FP10KQ and heard 0 difference.

Bottomline though is that until a person has the opportunity to perform the same test with the ability to switch between AVR and external amp power INSTANTLY, they have to rely on audio memory...

It was a real eye opener for me and got me excited for a moment!...then I quickly realized that my epiphany/findings mean absolutely nothing to anyone else in the audio community.

Nathan did mention he was thinking about posting up a DIY tutorial for others to build their own switcher...let's hope so!

If I had a few I'd make it a point to ship them to anyone on AVS interested in experimenting, but I don't...yet....



That's right, I knew it wasn't yours but forgot when I posted. Like we talked about I think a lot of avs guys would be interested in one of those.
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I know there is a lot of experience with attenuators on this thread since JTR speakers are so high sensitivity. My new amps came intoday so of course Audyssey got pegged at -12 so I ordered attentuators. There is also an audible hum that I think other's have experienced with high gain amps and JTR speakers. Will the attenuators also help reduce that? I know with my last amp, it had gain knobs so I was able to get that hum to go away by reducing the gain on the amp. The new amps don't have gain adjustment so I can't do that. Will the attenuators essentially do the same thing as reducing the gain on the new amps and thus reducing/eliminating that hum?

I think rca to xlr is the culprit. To completely eliminate it your avr or preamp would have to have xlr pre outs. I don't know if the attenuators will help or not.

Sucks.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:02 PM
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I think rca to xlr is the culprit. To completely eliminate it your avr or preamp would have to have xlr pre outs. I don't know if the attenuators will help or not.

Sucks.

THanks Carp. The new amp has XLR connections and that is what I am using now. The attenuators I ordered are XLR attentuators. My old amp was RCA only so that is what I used before today were RCA connections. So I don' think that is it?
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:08 PM
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THanks Carp. The new amp has XLR connections and that is what I am using now. The attenuators I ordered are XLR attentuators. My old amp was RCA only so that is what I used before today were RCA connections. So I don' think that is it?

Are you saying your pre/pro has xlr outputs? So it's xlr to xlr? If so I got nothin' unfortunately. Someone will jump in and help.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:38 PM
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Are you saying your pre/pro has xlr outputs? So it's xlr to xlr? If so I got nothin' unfortunately. Someone will jump in and help.

Thanks again for trying to help out a fellow JTR brother. It is XLR to XLR but I think I made a discovery. I pulled that amp out of the shelf but left it connected and now the hum seems to be way lower...still there...but way lower. I wonder if when I pushed it back into the shelf, since it is a tight fight depth wise, if something (maybe speaker wire) was touching something else (maybe other speaker wire)....causing the hum. I will keep playing with it but I think that might have been it.



Just quick update, it is 90% gone. Now you can't hear it unless you walk right up to the speaker...before I could hear it from my seat. Was definitely something touching in my rack before. Was a huge buzz kill for a while getting a new toy and getting a sense of panick....all better now smile.gif
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:05 PM
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THanks Carp. The new amp has XLR connections and that is what I am using now. The attenuators I ordered are XLR attentuators. My old amp was RCA only so that is what I used before today were RCA connections. So I don' think that is it?

What amp?

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Old 02-27-2014, 08:10 PM
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What amp?

I picked up a black Parasound Halo A51 and a matching black Parasound Halo A23. Switching them out with my NAD M25 amp. The main reason was to get XLR connections and I wanted a black amp to match the rest of my equipment which is all black (the NAD is grey)...since I have self diagnosed HT OCD smile.gif
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Thanks again for trying to help out a fellow JTR brother. It is XLR to XLR but I think I made a discovery. I pulled that amp out of the shelf but left it connected and now the hum seems to be way lower...still there...but way lower. I wonder if when I pushed it back into the shelf, since it is a tight fight depth wise, if something (maybe speaker wire) was touching something else (maybe other speaker wire)....causing the hum. I will keep playing with it but I think that might have been it.



Just quick update, it is 90% gone. Now you can't hear it unless you walk right up to the speaker...before I could hear it from my seat. Was definitely something touching in my rack before. Was a huge buzz kill for a while getting a new toy and getting a sense of panick....all better now smile.gif

Wheww, glad you figured it out. I'm still thinking that 10% could be eliminated too though.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:31 PM
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I picked up a black Parasound Halo A51 and a matching black Parasound Halo A23. Switching them out with my NAD M25 amp. The main reason was to get XLR connections and I wanted a black amp to match the rest of my equipment which is all black (the NAD is grey)...since I have self diagnosed HT OCD smile.gif

I've owned Parasound gear. They are based in SF and I've been to their offices a few times. Good people, good products and good service. Try a cheater plug on the amp and see if the hum disappears. Not a fix but informative.

BTW, If you're looking for a second opinion, I concur with your diagnosis biggrin.gif.

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Old 02-27-2014, 08:43 PM
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I've owned Parasound gear. They are based in SF and I've been to their offices a few times. Good people, good products and good service. Try a cheater plug on the amp and see if the hum disappears. Not a fix but informative.

BTW, If you're looking for a second opinion, I concur with your diagnosis biggrin.gif.

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Old 02-27-2014, 08:53 PM
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Yeah well I'm in recovery. None of my AV equipment matches and I'm ok with that ... so theres hope for you too. smile.gif

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Old 02-28-2014, 05:34 AM
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Just quick update, it is 90% gone. Now you can't hear it unless you walk right up to the speaker...before I could hear it from my seat. Was definitely something touching in my rack before. Was a huge buzz kill for a while getting a new toy and getting a sense of panick....all better now smile.gif
New amps and cables sometimes need to warm up. If you still have the hum today try rotating while checking the XLR cables one at a time. Connection/cables seem to have a higher failure rate over the past 2 years.
Chris

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Old 02-28-2014, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I know there is a lot of experience with attenuators on this thread since JTR speakers are so high sensitivity. My new amps came intoday so of course Audyssey got pegged at -12 so I ordered attentuators. There is also an audible hum that I think other's have experienced with high gain amps and JTR speakers. Will the attenuators also help reduce that? I know with my last amp, it had gain knobs so I was able to get that hum to go away by reducing the gain on the amp. The new amps don't have gain adjustment so I can't do that. Will the attenuators essentially do the same thing as reducing the gain on the new amps and thus reducing/eliminating that hum?

Well, late to the party and glad you got it sorted out. Odds are RCA will help with your 8801 as their output gain is 6dB lower than XLR, but then you don't have that nice balanced cable, so there is a tradeoff.

Yea, you must have pushed the power cable up against a speaker cable or something. The nicest fix is that which just takes a little cable management wink.gif

With all that said, you still have -12dB on the 212's. The Attenuator will solve this, as well as likely take care of the last 10% of the issue, so it literally is a win/win situation for you. I actually just had to pop an attenuator in to the 2242's as they had a pretty bad hum, and are quite sensitive. It solved the whole issue very quickly.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:54 AM
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I've always been partial to those sexy terminal clips. And I can only dream of affording a Bose system...they are so CUTE cool.gif

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I agree here. I don't know the specs on the 215's or the 210's yet, but they are not going to be as sensitive as the Noesis, that is for sure, those drivers are going to be a lot more beefier than the 212's and 228's. No AVR is going to push the 215's to their potential. Be like driving a full size truck with a 4 cylinder and would you want to do that?

3-cylinder...2014 hotness! Would put the engine in my truck to shame

nissans-three-cylinder-engine-for-its-zeod-rc-electrified-le-mans-car_100454471_m.jpg

I get what you mean though my friend. wink.gif

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Well, late to the party and glad you got it sorted out. Odds are RCA will help with your 8801 as their output gain is 6dB lower than XLR, but then you don't have that nice balanced cable, so there is a tradeoff.

Yea, you must have pushed the power cable up against a speaker cable or something. The nicest fix is that which just takes a little cable management wink.gif

With all that said, you still have -12dB on the 212's. The Attenuator will solve this, as well as likely take care of the last 10% of the issue, so it literally is a win/win situation for you. I actually just had to pop an attenuator in to the 2242's as they had a pretty bad hum, and are quite sensitive. It solved the whole issue very quickly.

So help me understand this attenuator issue... Is there any negative consequence to throwing one in line? Will it have any effect on max output?
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:11 AM
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I always wanted to hear JTR speakers so I popped over to joe's (jbrown15) place last night to hear his 228's after the step daughter gave birth to a new baby boy in the morning.
We played a few CD's and the intro to Terminator Salvation (for dynamics testing). Well yes, they sounded awesome. When we played the Terminator intro, we thought we had all three speakers on, but no only the left and right were on. This fooled us both because the soundstage was seamless and this is with them spaced over 12 feet apart, I think. Music was also seamless across the front stage, wide and deep with great detail retrieval with no harshness. I have not heard better anytime in my life although I have only heard audiophile speakers mainly over the years. Thanks Joe! I will have to contemplate what is my next step.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I told you man, you can borrow mine anytime!
3-cylinder...2014 hotness! Would put the engine in my truck to shame

nissans-three-cylinder-engine-for-its-zeod-rc-electrified-le-mans-car_100454471_m.jpg

I get what you mean though my friend. wink.gif
He is holding the block, but not the gigantic supercharger that actually makes that engine work. Still could not put that engine in a truck, it does not make enough torque to tow. Still is awesome though!! It is amazing at what manufactures are doing in regards to eliminating the V8 engine, it will not belong before these engines are more common in larger vehicles. I just got a 3.5 V6 Ecoboost in my new truck and I have to admit, I never thought it would move like it does. When the twin turbos kick in, good night!! The stock engine is making 365 BHP with 420 lb-ft of torque. I am going to do some tinkering, I found a way to get 60 more horse and 80 lb-ft of torque. The new numbers should read 405 BHP and 500 lb-ft of Torque when complete. Varoooooooom!! I love engines as much as I do subs biggrin.gif

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Old 02-28-2014, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

I will also be trying to complete a new Audyssey XT32 calibration tonight.

12 dB attenuators arrived, so I added them in and ran an 8-point Audyssey calibration a few nights ago. LCR trims were set at -3 (which means without the attenuators they wanted to be around -15, so they were 3 dB hot when the AVR maxed the trim at -12) and the Cap S2 was set at -4. I bumped the subwoofer trim up 5 dB hot to +1.

I need to get some measuring equipment so I can see what is going on, but overall the attenuators did reduce the buzz from the Sherbourn amp and they allowed Audyssey to correctly level match all speakers. I'm still not sure why, but the Cap S2 seems to be limited by Audyssey, I have yet to experience any bass as powerful as I was expecting.

I have a question on the Audyssey test tones, specifically the subwoofer tones. Is it normal for the sub to barely be making any noise when Audyssey is running its calibration? Seems to be very quiet, but I guess that may be normal.

Here are the current speaker settings.

Left is 8.9 ft and -3 trim.
Center is 7.7 ft and -3 trim.
Right is 8.6 ft and -3 trim.
Subwoofer is 10.0 ft and +1 trim (5 dB hot, Audyssey set at -4).

I am watching S1E4 of Game of Thrones right now, nothing too dynamic in this episode yet but everything is crystal clear.

Video - Panasonic VT50 55" | Panasonic BDT320
AVR - Denon X4000 | Sherbourn PA 7-350
Speakers - JTR Noesis 228HT | DIY Sound Group Volt V10 | JTR Captivator S2
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emr25 View Post

12 dB attenuators arrived, so I added them in and ran an 8-point Audyssey calibration a few nights ago. LCR trims were set at -3 (which means without the attenuators they wanted to be around -15, so they were 3 dB hot when the AVR maxed the trim at -12) and the Cap S2 was set at -4. I bumped the subwoofer trim up 5 dB hot to +1.

I need to get some measuring equipment so I can see what is going on, but overall the attenuators did reduce the buzz from the Sherbourn amp and they allowed Audyssey to correctly level match all speakers. I'm still not sure why, but the Cap S2 seems to be limited by Audyssey, I have yet to experience any bass as powerful as I was expecting.

I have a question on the Audyssey test tones, specifically the subwoofer tones. Is it normal for the sub to barely be making any noise when Audyssey is running its calibration? Seems to be very quiet, but I guess that may be normal.

Here are the current speaker settings.

Left is 8.9 ft and -3 trim.
Center is 7.7 ft and -3 trim.
Right is 8.6 ft and -3 trim.
Subwoofer is 10.0 ft and +1 trim (5 dB hot, Audyssey set at -4).

I am watching S1E4 of Game of Thrones right now, nothing too dynamic in this episode yet but everything is crystal clear.

Don't be afraid to manually bump up the sub to wherever it sounds right to you. I also bump mine up 6 to 8db from where Audyssey leaves it for my subs.

I also just ordered attenuators yesterday after my new amp came in and pegged Audyssey at -12db. I ordered the ones in the link below because they looked pliable like a regular cord and looked easy to integrate. First time buying attenuators for me so didn't know what to get.

http://www.amazon.com/Audiogadgets-True-Balanced-Attenuator-Cable/dp/B00A9JWJ1A/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1393615684&sr=8-15&keywords=xlr+attenuator
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Old 02-28-2014, 12:35 PM
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:02 PM
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Testing 9.2 today...adding heights now. So far wides aren't doing much, as I had concluded before. Let's see what heights add, if anything, in my room.

Edit: reran 8 point audysseys, and went thru 8 demo clips...so as expected, heights have expanded LR sound...Audyssey has crossed them at 250Hz. My 212 are still sitting on the floor and horns for a main speaker is 6 feet from a height horn. As from my past experience, I have found at least 5-6' distance will provide good separation to really utilize heights, and get a wall of sound, which it is giving with the way my 212 are on floor. As in another setup, I highly doubt it will have enough separation once the LCR are setup higher and distance closes between the heights. I still wouldn't use a jtr 8 for heights, as that is just not good economics IMO, unless you've got money to burn. I'm using some eD cinema 6, which are horns, that I am selling and a buyer wanted to hear them...so gave me an excuse to wire a pair up.


---------------------------------------------------------------
current gear: lcr JTR 212HT ~ quad JTR 8LP ~ dual JTR Orbit Shifters LFU ~ Elemental Designs eD6c ~ Marantz SR7008 ~ PT-AE8000U ~ Elite 176" 2.35 ATS
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