Official JTR speaker thread - Page 561 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #16801 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Let's say that one does want to increase the mid bass slam on a set of 228/212's, how would you do this?

I am running through an avr (4311). I don't think I can use an external eq with this right? Would you have to add a mid bass module?

Just curious.

You can mess around with the dynamic EQ feature on your 4311's audyssey settings menu, which will increase the overall bass spectrum depending on your listening level anywhere below reference. It essentially doesn't decrease the bass as much as the rest of the FR the further you get from reference to maintain the "perceived" loudness of the fletcher munson curves.

The other option if you are not using audyssey or don't like dynamic EQ would be to use the tone control under your audio menu.

Final option if you are still unhappy would be to add a MBM or use EQing on your existing sub system assuming it is capable up to 150-200hz or so...

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #16802 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:26 AM
Senior Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I'm afraid not, in order to control material costs he decided to use these terminal clips on all JTR speakers. The upside for new owners is the savings in only having to run 22ga speaker wire (ie the wire from your Bose system). cool.gif


I've always been partial to those sexy terminal clips. And I can only dream of affording a Bose system...they are so CUTE cool.gif

speakers for sale: Elemental Designs Cinema 6 eD6c ~ bookshelf horn speakers
my speakers: jtr 212ht lcr, 8lp surrounds, dual orbit shifters
asoofi1 is offline  
post #16803 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,598
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked: 471
beastaudio,

the reason there are cleaning supplies in the rosewood matching box atop the right custom 212HT is to keep those things looking sparkling. You know --- not dissimilar from da man with an Escalade and DUB spinners who has a chrome cleaning kit box at his fingertips at all times. Gotta keep those things CLEAN for the ladies -- if ya know what I mean. tongue.gif
RMK! likes this.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

Archaea is online now  
post #16804 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
countryWV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Huntington West Virginia
Posts: 1,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I've got a manual switching mechanism I made with single throw double pole switches. It'll let you compare four amps at once on a pair of speakers. You can switch amplifiers as simple as you can throw a light switch. I'll ship to you on my dime. You pay return shipping.

Listen for yourself, and come back and provide feedback on your experimentation.

Challenge laid down:


*awaits response...


This picture looks like a Hot Mess.

Any audible differences will be subtle so switching amps like that will end in failure b/c that's how this test is set up.

If a test setup for failure to begin with proves something to someone so be it. smile.gif

On a separate note Archaea How is your new amp working? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I lend more creed to the challenge if the man making the No difference claim did not own a brand new Badass amp himself.

Come on Jonathan smile.gif

Chris
countryWV is offline  
post #16805 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:43 AM
Member
 
Gunner969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpc716 View Post

Try to find a used pair of Klipsch bookshelves for sale cheap locally and use those for a trial run. Even the base models should be good enough to give you an idea of whether or not this is worth a bigger investment. As long as you can sell them later for about what you paid you've got nothing to lose.

I have a Klipsch/JTR combo in my HT and they mix pretty well.

Thanks. I'll have a look at those.
Gunner969 is offline  
post #16806 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 5,598
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 119 Post(s)
Liked: 471
I'd actually debated selling it multiple times --- preciously because I cannot tell the difference. But If I happen upon something like the 215HT, I'd be glad I had it.

I bought the amp because it was a good value - and you know this. smile.gif $1K for a 3K-4K amp. I could sell it used for $1800 on ebay at this point.

It has a 10 year warranty. Works out to be darn cheap over that time.

It'll give me the opportunity to switch pre-amps at will in the future without worrying about if they have a good quality amplifier section or not. (good like my Onkyo's have had).



I think you've got it backwards anyway. If I really thought amps made a solid difference, I would not be offering to let any enthusiast try a switcher to verify for themselves, and I'd be silently trying to sell the 7-350 for a big profit. Anybody who would buy my 7-350 knows I can't tell the difference between that and a competent AVR on something as sensitive as the 212 or 228 Noesis. That's not really good for my resale --- but it's the honest truth and I'm not timid to say it.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout

My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint

Archaea is online now  
post #16807 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

You can mess around with the dynamic EQ feature on your 4311's audyssey settings menu, which will increase the overall bass spectrum depending on your listening level anywhere below reference. It essentially doesn't decrease the bass as much as the rest of the FR the further you get from reference to maintain the "perceived" loudness of the fletcher munson curves.

The other option if you are not using audyssey or don't like dynamic EQ would be to use the tone control under your audio menu.

Final option if you are still unhappy would be to add a MBM or use EQing on your existing sub system assuming it is capable up to 150-200hz or so...

Thanks. I haven't listened to my new 228's yet to determine if I need more mid bass. If I do, and decide to add an MBM, could it by run as a supplement to the 228's, where the 228's are crossed at 100 and the MBM crossed at the same? Essentially the MBM would be replicating the 300-100 range that the 228's are.

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
raynist is online now  
post #16808 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 08:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Thanks. I haven't listened to my new 228's yet to determine if I need more mid bass. If I do, and decide to add an MBM, could it by run as a supplement to the 228's, where the 228's are crossed at 100 and the MBM crossed at the same? Essentially the MBM would be replicating the 300-100 range that the 228's are.

Eh, that is purely a guessing game with how you place the MBM in room. If you use a pair as stands for your 228's then maybe, but odds are overlapping the FR will create more troubles than it is worth. The way I have done it is to run the MBM as part of the bass system, with say the 2242's i have now handling the 40-150hz material, and the SI's taking the 40hz and below. Letting the Danleys handle above 150hz obviously. It really is a moving target that you have to incorporate a MBM to your own personal preference.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #16809 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 09:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
countryWV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Huntington West Virginia
Posts: 1,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I think you've got it backwards anyway. If I really thought amps made a solid difference, I would not be offering to let any enthusiast try a switcher to verify for themselves, and I'd be silently trying to sell the 7-350 for a big profit. Anybody who would buy my 7-350 knows I can't tell the difference between that and a competent AVR on something as sensitive as the 212 or 228 Noesis. That's not really good for my resale --- but it's the honest truth and I'm not timid to say it.[/quote
I just think this is a bad way to test this theory. It will always end with the opinion that there is no differences.





It takes time with the amp in a room the user is familiar with. Unfamiliar rooms and situations will always present a different sound experience.

I firmly believe that my exact equipment in someone elses room would be unfamiliar to me. I could not pick out my own speakers so I know hearing distortion differences would be impossible.

As long as the avr or amp ones using maintains adequate headroom then there is no reason for anything else. It is when 7 channels are being driven and the avr runs out or fails to maintain enough headroom that break up occurs causing distortion leading to listening fatigue.

The only way to test it with different results is listening over time with multiple sessions in a very familiar room. With quality avrs and amps, There will be No sound differences only different levels of listening fatigue. IMO listening fatigue is the difference between amp and avr.

Chris
countryWV is offline  
post #16810 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 09:14 AM
Senior Member
 
asoofi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 386
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 52
Even though this amp discussion started because someone made a sweeping generalization that an avr holds back the jtrs, I keep an open mind to be convinced otherwise about amps. Just for the sake of thought provoking discussion...Sometimes we want there to be noticeable difference because we are vested... so our brain may contribute to the possible illusion. Along these lines, I give you the McGurk effect... this is similar to a blind test...watch the video and again with eyes closed. When you see an amp, maybe we hear the difference...the brain is a tricky lil' bugger cool.gif

popalock likes this.

speakers for sale: Elemental Designs Cinema 6 eD6c ~ bookshelf horn speakers
my speakers: jtr 212ht lcr, 8lp surrounds, dual orbit shifters
asoofi1 is offline  
post #16811 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 09:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
countryWV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Huntington West Virginia
Posts: 1,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 134
"All speakers would benefit from a high quality amplifier". Quote from JP

This statement should be the common ground. How much? Is it audible? Is it worth it? It's opinions with no definitive answer for all after that. smile.gif

If I were looking for a 7 speaker system that could be driven off an avr JTR is where I would start. smile.gif
Chris
countryWV is offline  
post #16812 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 09:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Reefdvr27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cape May, NJ
Posts: 2,222
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Not the OP, but I can tell you that it's my opinion that the question about whether there is a difference in SQ between an avr vs high power amp with high efficiency speakers such as JTR and Danley is not answered or proven to my satisfaction. There are many individual room and listening distance factors that make any kind of general definitive statement impossible, but there are reasons for me to believe there may be a difference, even at low volumes such as reference, between an avr putting out 100 watts and an amp with 2000 watts of headroom.

The bottom line though, is that if anyone is more than satisfied with an AVR in their system, then there is absolutely no reason for them to consider a separate amp and/or if you are firmly in the camp that there is no difference between an avr and an amp, then it's a non-issue. What I am certain about is that whatever that difference is, if it exists, is small. It all comes down to what you're willing to pay for the comfort of knowing you've absolutely maximized your system potential.

I'm not posting to change anyone's mind, because I don't really care about how they listen. This topic is like 50 First Dates, so I'm going to leave it here, but just wanted to point out that some of us still believe it may make a difference.
I agree here. I don't know the specs on the 215's or the 210's yet, but they are not going to be as sensitive as the Noesis, that is for sure, those drivers are going to be a lot more beefier than the 212's and 228's. No AVR is going to push the 215's to their potential. Be like driving a full size truck with a 4 cylinder and would you want to do that?
Reefdvr27 is online now  
post #16813 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 09:39 AM
Troll
 
ufokillerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 1,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


HEY KILLERZ!! Looks great dude. What am I looking at though on top of your Noesis? mailbox on the left, cleaning supplies on the right? Also, are those manifolds for an IB on either side of your equipment rack or intakes for your HVAC or something?

the silver amps on top of my S2's are merrill audio veritas amps, currently unused, previously used with my av123 ls6 speakers.

the 2 boxes on the top of my noesis are piaudio uberbuss power conditioners, nothing is really hooked up yet.

the 2 holes in my wall were ports for my danley dts-10s which i no longer have (had to clear out the back room to please the wife) haven't had time to seal these ports up yet either.

and yes to cleaning supplies on the right lol, the left side are 2 boxes of hubbell ig8300 outlets



also to point out, i have veneer to please the family, Jeffs standard finish is great for most applications, but to those naysayers out there saying JTR speakers look like crap, i'm just showing you that they could come veneered.
ufokillerz is offline  
post #16814 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 09:45 AM
Troll
 
ufokillerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NYC Area
Posts: 1,534
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Yeah that is a DARN good looking system!

What's it the little white holes behind the center racks? If not some big subwoofer horn's mouth ---- make it so! tongue.gif

not sure if you remember seeing dts-10s at andrews place for that gtg those used to behind my white holes lol.
ufokillerz is offline  
post #16815 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Eh, that is purely a guessing game with how you place the MBM in room. If you use a pair as stands for your 228's then maybe, but odds are overlapping the FR will create more troubles than it is worth. The way I have done it is to run the MBM as part of the bass system, with say the 2242's i have now handling the 40-150hz material, and the SI's taking the 40hz and below. Letting the Danleys handle above 150hz obviously. It really is a moving target that you have to incorporate a MBM to your own personal preference.

Thanks.

Do you use a mini dsp to control the separate crossovers to the MBM vs the real subs?

This is all just speculation though, need to put some movie watching in this weekend and run REW.

What would be a good movie scene to determine midbass output?

Also, I could run my triple Triax's crossed over up to 200hz without issue if needed.

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
raynist is online now  
post #16816 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 11:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Thanks.

Do you use a mini dsp to control the separate crossovers to the MBM vs the real subs?

This is all just speculation though, need to put some movie watching in this weekend and run REW.

What would be a good movie scene to determine midbass output?

Also, I could run my triple Triax's crossed over up to 200hz without issue if needed.

I use the behringer DCX. One of the few left that hasn't jumped ship to the miniDSP. Both would be capable of doing what you want to do, but I would suggest not messing with anything unless you have measuring gear to really see exactly what you are doing as you make changes, otherwise just shooting in the dark...

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #16817 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 11:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I use the behringer DCX. One of the few left that hasn't jumped ship to the miniDSP. Both would be capable of doing what you want to do, but I would suggest not messing with anything unless you have measuring gear to really see exactly what you are doing as you make changes, otherwise just shooting in the dark...

Thanks. I do have REW. Will be implementing a house curve with a 1124 sometime in the next few weeks.

I'll listen to a few movies and do some graphing before seeing if I even want/need a MBM.
beastaudio likes this.

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
raynist is online now  
post #16818 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 12:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post


* for RMK! - with full range 215 and expectation to run his speakers full range I think an elite amp is in order.

Check smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Agreed for RMK. And just to pop in once again as the devil's advocate, the 215 and 210's will once again have excellent extensions, and for the big boys, down to 18hz will be great...BUT, if you are still looking for these to absolutely SLAM you in the chest, you will STILL need eq to boost those frequencies.

Now what makes you think that a good full range speaker given source material that contains powerful >20Hz bass won't provide "SLAM" without EQ boosting those frequencies?

Room gain naturally produces a nice house curve and it is just as often necessary to tame that back a bit with EQ. That said, there is nothing wrong with liking some serious hot bass (like say The Sultan of Subwoofage aka popalock) just as there is nothing wrong with wanting the bass to sound like the source intended it to sound i.e. balanced (me). smile.gif

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
RMK! is offline  
post #16819 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 12:32 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
hogues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

34d7933c-d52b-480a-b152-8245de1262d6_zps89925815.jpg slowly coming together, my redone slanted 8's will be back in another 2 weeks, i couldn't live with the black paint on 1 side of the slanted 8s

Looks great, UFO. I regret not getting a custom veneer.

hogues is online now  
post #16820 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 12:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Check smile.gif
Now what makes you think that a good full range speaker given source material that contains powerful >20Hz bass won't provide "SLAM" without EQ boosting those frequencies?

Room gain naturally produces a nice house curve and it is just as often necessary to tame that back a bit with EQ. That said, there is nothing wrong with liking some serious hot bass (like say The Sultan of Subwoofage aka popalock) just as there is nothing wrong with wanting the bass to sound like the source intended it to sound i.e. balanced (me). smile.gif

Maybe you are missing the distinction between "Slam" and "Absolutely SLAM" The former is a nice flat response such as you are seeking, the latter, a gratuitous house curve or otherwise boosted midbass or bottom end. Guess I should have defined the two different terms. rolleyes.gif I see members who have 4-5dB boosts or more on their current low end, to achieve that slam, or in some cases even, are still wanting for more from further up. I stress that just getting a full range speaker won't help.

Case in point, I like the room gain I get down low naturally, so I like to leave it.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #16821 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Maybe you are missing the distinction between "Slam" and "Absolutely SLAM" The former is a nice flat response such as you are seeking, the latter, a gratuitous house curve or otherwise boosted midbass or bottom end. Guess I should have defined the two different terms. rolleyes.gif I see members who have 4-5dB boosts or more on their current low end, to achieve that slam, or in some cases even, are still wanting for more from further up. I stress that just getting a full range speaker won't help.

Case in point, I like the room gain I get down low naturally, so I like to leave it.

Sure but what about Super Stupendous SLAM? Forgot about that one didn't ya ... rolleyes.gifwink.gif

Oh any by the way, your conjecture on what I am "seeking" is incorrect. Probably my bad for being imprecise in my description.

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
RMK! is offline  
post #16822 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Sure but what about Super Stupendous SLAM? Forgot about that one didn't ya ... rolleyes.gifwink.gif

That's why I just bought these guys in the middle:

countryWV likes this.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #16823 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RMK!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 95608
Posts: 5,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

That's why I just bought these guys in the middle:


Giving poppalock a run for his money ... smile.gif

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
RMK! is offline  
post #16824 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
desertdome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 1,700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post

Thanks. I haven't listened to my new 228's yet to determine if I need more mid bass. If I do, and decide to add an MBM, could it by run as a supplement to the 228's, where the 228's are crossed at 100 and the MBM crossed at the same? Essentially the MBM would be replicating the 300-100 range that the 228's are.
There is a reduction of SPL caused by deconstruction interference between the direct sound of a speaker and the reflected sound. This cancellation is called Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) or Allison Effect. It is discussed in the Acoustical Treatments Master Thread, at GIK Acoustics, and elsewhere. Since the effect is based on the speaker's position, the cancellation occurs regardless of where you sit.

SBIR's effect can be calculated by the following formula: Speed of sound (1130 ft/s)/distance in ft X .25
The formula can be simplified to 282.5/distance in ft
This is 1/4 wavelength and can also be calculated using the calculator at Real Traps and viewing the 1/4 wave frequency.
For a speaker 2 ft from the front wall, the cancellation occurs at 141.3 Hz (285.2/2).

For most people, SBIR causes issues with their midbass since the cancellation ranges from 80-200Hz.

There are several ways to reduce/eliminate SBIR:
1. Use a baffle wall. This eliminates reflected sound.
2. Use absorption on the front wall. It takes a lot of absorption to reduce reflections at the midbass frequencies.
3. Position sub(s) and speakers so they each have interference at different frequencies. Set the crossover around the 1/4 wavelength frequency. This will help get a little overlap. The problem is that many use subs with lots of excursion for low frequencies. Some of these rolloff early above 80 Hz or have lots of distortion (IMD). If playing below 40 Hz, you don't want the sub playing above 150 Hz.
4. Use an MBM in a different location and overlap the midbass frequency range. For example, you can use a 200 Hz low pass on the MBM and a 80 Hz high pass on the speaker. They will then overlap in the problem frequency range. To correct the SPL, you use a high or low shelf filter.

#4 is basically the same as using flanking subs as advocated by Wayne Parham. In order to get the maximum midbass coverage, the driver of the MBM should be a different distance from both the front wall and side wall than the speaker. I think Wayne recommended no more than 4 ft away, though, so their aren't audible timing issues in the frequencies. The MBM under the speaker changes the speaker to floor distance, but the other two are the same unless you rotate the MBM so it faces a different direction.

Below 1/4 wavelength the direct/reflected frequencies couple and you get bass reinforcement.

This is a long way of saying that I agree with you that using an MBM can be of benefit if implemented properly. smile.gif

I have a pair of dlbeck's 212HT-LP speakers and last weekend built some boxes for MBMs that will use Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers. I still need to round over the edges, coat with Duratex, and load everything. I hope to take some measurements in my room demonstrating the benefit of using the MBMs. In his theater, we plan to use a 150 Hz high pass and 40 Hz low pass on the MBM's with an 80 Hz high pass on the 212HT-LP's. Below 40 Hz will be routed to two S2's.
desertdome is offline  
post #16825 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
raynist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,158
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

There is a reduction of SPL caused by deconstruction interference between the direct sound of a speaker and the reflected sound. This cancellation is called Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) or Allison Effect. It is discussed in the Acoustical Treatments Master Thread, at GIK Acoustics, and elsewhere. Since the effect is based on the speaker's position, the cancellation occurs regardless of where you sit.

SBIR's effect can be calculated by the following formula: Speed of sound (1130 ft/s)/distance in ft X .25
The formula can be simplified to 282.5/distance in ft
This is 1/4 wavelength and can also be calculated using the calculator at Real Traps and viewing the 1/4 wave frequency.
For a speaker 2 ft from the front wall, the cancellation occurs at 141.3 Hz (285.2/2).

For most people, SBIR causes issues with their midbass since the cancellation ranges from 80-200Hz.

There are several ways to reduce/eliminate SBIR:
1. Use a baffle wall. This eliminates reflected sound.
2. Use absorption on the front wall. It takes a lot of absorption to reduce reflections at the midbass frequencies.
3. Position sub(s) and speakers so they each have interference at different frequencies. Set the crossover around the 1/4 wavelength frequency. This will help get a little overlap. The problem is that many use subs with lots of excursion for low frequencies. Some of these rolloff early above 80 Hz or have lots of distortion (IMD). If playing below 40 Hz, you don't want the sub playing above 150 Hz.
4. Use an MBM in a different location and overlap the midbass frequency range. For example, you can use a 200 Hz low pass on the MBM and a 80 Hz high pass on the speaker. They will then overlap in the problem frequency range. To correct the SPL, you use a high or low shelf filter.

#4 is basically the same as using flanking subs as advocated by Wayne Parham. In order to get the maximum midbass coverage, the driver of the MBM should be a different distance from both the front wall and side wall than the speaker. I think Wayne recommended no more than 4 ft away, though, so their aren't audible timing issues in the frequencies. The MBM under the speaker changes the speaker to floor distance, but the other two are the same unless you rotate the MBM so it faces a different direction.

Below 1/4 wavelength the direct/reflected frequencies couple and you get bass reinforcement.

This is a long way of saying that I agree with you that using an MBM can be of benefit if implemented properly. smile.gif

I have a pair of dlbeck's 212HT-LP speakers and last weekend built some boxes for MBMs that will use Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers. I still need to round over the edges, coat with Duratex, and load everything. I hope to take some measurements in my room demonstrating the benefit of using the MBMs. In his theater, we plan to use a 150 Hz high pass and 40 Hz low pass on the MBM's with an 80 Hz high pass on the 212HT-LP's. Below 40 Hz will be routed to two S2's.

Thanks.

Is the distance from the wall calculated for the from of the speaker or the back? I would assume there is a change when the speaker is in a corner too right?

3 - JTR 228's LCR (game room)
2 - DIY Sound Group V-8 Coaxials (game room)
4 - PSA Triax's (game room)
2 - SVS SB13+'s (living room)
1 - SVS SB12-NSD (bedroom)
raynist is online now  
post #16826 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
beastaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 6,937
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

I have a pair of dlbeck's 212HT-LP speakers and last weekend built some boxes for MBMs that will use Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ drivers. I still need to round over the edges, coat with Duratex, and load everything. I hope to take some measurements in my room demonstrating the benefit of using the MBMs. In his theater, we plan to use a 150 Hz high pass and 40 Hz low pass on the MBM's with an 80 Hz high pass on the 212HT-LP's. Below 40 Hz will be routed to two S2's.

I will be very much looking forward to this!

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging." ~ Walt Whitman

 

AE TD12x SEOS12 Build

Beast's DIY Master Measurement Thread

DIY Emminence Coaxial Surround Thread

beastaudio is offline  
post #16827 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:45 PM
Advanced Member
 
lbrown105's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I've got a manual switching mechanism I made with single throw double pole switches. It'll let you compare four amps at once on a pair of speakers. You can switch amplifiers as simple as you can throw a light switch. I'll ship to you on my dime. You pay return shipping.

Listen for yourself, and come back and provide feedback on your experimentation.

Challenge laid down:


*awaits response...






* for RMK! - with full range 215 and expectation to run his speakers full range I think an elite amp is in order. For anyone with a hyper sensitive 212HT or 228HT and a crossover of around 80hz - you are well well well well well well well within THX power specs up to reference level volumes. (assuming your AVR is actually rated for 4ohm use) smile.gif (actually you should be able to play about +10 over reference with the 212HT on a THX Ultra rated AVR without encountering amp limitations).

I usually find I agree with you on most stuff gooddoc, but this particular arena, I hope you do some of your own real time experimentation. If you do, and come away with different thoughts than me - great! Publish it, here on the forums. At that point you've come to a thorough conclusion with your own testing in your own room!!!


I don't understand this challenge. Why would I need an a/b switch to tell the difference. At a specified dB like reference it may be true you can't tell the difference but at higher volumes of course you can. Once the amp clips it sounds bad and the harder the clipping the quicker it sounds bad. Light clipping takes longer to fatigue the ear but either way it is not desireable. This in no way means a certain individual needs the high powered amp if they are operating below clipping with their AVR. You can ship that thing to me and I will test but really no need since I will test at levels that will blow the receiver's amp up, but if it damages my 212's who's going to pay for the drivers? Now I am told the drivers on the 212 probably would not be harmed but not sure I want to drive that distorted power through them. What is the point of all this? We know the sensitivity ratings of the speakers, we know the power ratings, we know our personal listening levels and most of us have measurement equipment. Why do I need to blow up an AVR to prove the high powered amp can offer something to the 212's the AVR can't. Do you not trust Jeff's program power rating of the 212? I just spoke with Jeff about this again this weekend. Even though I have a Sunfire 7400 we both think another 6dB of clean output will be achieved with the LG10k
countryWV likes this.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva UMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
lbrown105 is online now  
post #16828 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 01:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I've got a manual switching mechanism I made with single throw double pole switches. It'll let you compare four amps at once on a pair of speakers. You can switch amplifiers as simple as you can throw a light switch. I'll ship to you on my dime. You pay return shipping.

Listen for yourself, and come back and provide feedback on your experimentation.

Challenge laid down:


*awaits response...






* for RMK! - with full range 215 and expectation to run his speakers full range I think an elite amp is in order. For anyone with a hyper sensitive 212HT or 228HT and a crossover of around 80hz - you are well well well well well well well within THX power specs up to reference level volumes. (assuming your AVR is actually rated for 4ohm use) smile.gif (actually you should be able to play about +10 over reference with the 212HT on a THX Ultra rated AVR without encountering amp limitations).

I usually find I agree with you on most stuff gooddoc, but this particular arena, I hope you do some of your own real time experimentation. If you do, and come away with different thoughts than me - great! Publish it, here on the forums. At that point you've come to a thorough conclusion with your own testing in your own room!!!

Thanks for that offer Archea! I very well may take you up on that. My only reservations are that I believe my Denon AVR likely has enough output to drive two 212's to reference level and beyond pretty cleanly, and I don't think I will likely be able to distinguish the two amps in a blind test at any reasonable level. However, I have 5 other speakers that the AVR has to drive during soundtracks and I don't think A/B'ing 7 channels will be possible as there is just too much pollution to distinguish small differences. I believe it's the reason that it is hard, or impossible, to distinguish any difference between the 212's and 228's with movie soundtracks. So how can I use your device to test differences with 7 channels driven?

Also, as Country pointed out, longer term listening fatigue due to low level distortion products are unlikely to be revealed with this test format. In fact, I'm not even sure a methodology exists for testing that, but it's a real thing that absolutely exists. The brain typically filters much of that subconsciously since it is a necessary thing in life, but I believe it has a cumulative fatigue effect over time. This can be tested by ever so slowly pushing a signal from clean to distorted at fairly high volumes. By the time you raise your hand to indicate you detect distortion it will have already been present for a time. It's just the nature by which your brain deals with these things. I know some of my claims might be controversial, but it is what I believe currently. smile.gif

So although I believe the A/B test has value to show that certain differences may or may not exist, I dont think it is a test that can distinguish all important variables.

But I am definitely interested in putting this thing in my system and seeing if I can distinguish any differences blinded. I really do appreciate the offer to use your test setup, but right now I simply don't have the time to do it. Can I reach out to you by PM in the near future to set it up? And I'll pay shipping biggrin.gif.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #16829 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 02:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gooddoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by hogues View Post

Looks great, UFO. I regret not getting a custom veneer.

+1. My wife would be far happier with those....

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

I don't understand this challenge. Why would I need an a/b switch to tell the difference. At a specified dB like reference it may be true you can't tell the difference but at higher volumes of course you can. Once the amp clips it sounds bad and the harder the clipping the quicker it sounds bad. Light clipping takes longer to fatigue the ear but either way it is not desireable. This in no way means a certain individual needs the high powered amp if they are operating below clipping with their AVR. You can ship that thing to me and I will test but really no need since I will test at levels that will blow the receiver's amp up, but if it damages my 212's who's going to pay for the drivers? Now I am told the drivers on the 212 probably would not be harmed but not sure I want to drive that distorted power through them. What is the point of all this? We know the sensitivity ratings of the speakers, we know the power ratings, we know our personal listening levels and most of us have measurement equipment. Why do I need to blow up an AVR to prove the high powered amp can offer something to the 212's the AVR can't. Do you not trust Jeff's program power rating of the 212? I just spoke with Jeff about this again this weekend. Even though I have a Sunfire 7400 we both think another 6dB of clean output will be achieved with the LG10k

Clipping of brief peaks in highly dynamic content is, as far as I can tell, very hard to distinguish. I think many would not even be able to tell if they were told it was happening. And yes, it happens with fairly powerful amps even at reference level...at least according to Tom Danley smile.gif. I make no claim to even trying to test for it, no less heard it with my own ears. But I trust Tom biggrin.gif.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
Gooddoc is offline  
post #16830 of 21519 Old 02-27-2014, 02:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,958
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post

You can ship that thing to me and I will test but really no need since I will test at levels that will blow the receiver's amp up, but if it damages my 212's who's going to pay for the drivers? Now I am told the drivers on the 212 probably would not be harmed but not sure I want to drive that distorted power through them. What is the point of all this? We know the sensitivity ratings of the speakers, we know the power ratings, we know our personal listening levels and most of us have measurement equipment. Why do I need to blow up an AVR to prove the high powered amp can offer something to the 212's the AVR can't.


Blow up an avr? I don't know how crazy you get with the volume but I am an idiot biggrin.gif with the remote in my hand. It takes me all of 2 watts to hit reference at my main LP on the 212's using an inuke (which has a limiter that you can adjust and watch the clip light). With all 7 speakers I obviously need more.... I should test that but I would need a buttload of inukes.... eek.gif

I've gone WAY the hell over reference in every demo I've done and no blowing up of the avr. However the avr did shut off when I demo'd Beast's Danleys (before hooking up the ep 4000) so if I had those speakers I'd have an amp for sure.

Now, outside would be a different story. We maxed out an inuke 3000 long before the 212's were done at the park.


BTW, Popalock has an incredible switcher and compared his avr to his clone amp on his rf-7's. I don't want to speak for him but you can guess what his impressions were since I'm mentioning it here.


All this said... I'll probably run a separate amp again eventually... I like new toys and watching my speakers drivers move - ha, if the drivers are moving you are at earplug time so it's pretty silly... smile.gif.
carp is offline  
Reply Speakers

Tags
Jtr , Jtr Noesis 212ht 212ht Lp
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off